@ SStava...

I still do not like the ingredients of mainstream Fabric Softeners, but they just work SO much better than "green" softeners.

Vaska cleans quite well & I like it A LOT, but our THREE local Target stores all stopped carrying it. I now have to either order it from Amazon or soap.com or Alice.com. It annoys me having to pay for shipping and wait for laundry detergent.

Yes, one would have to pry Persil out of my cold dead hands!! LOL

But, I am out of it right now, and since my family is coming in September from Germany, literally filled with a suitcase with nothing but Persil, Ariel and Vernel fabric softener (including Henkel's new anti-bacterial fabric softener :)...I am just using more mainstream products in the meaintime. Surprisingly, the new Tide offerings are working quite well. And while I still shudder sometimes at what is inside Downy...I am using 1/2 the recommended amount, and filling the FS tray with water. So hopefully I am diluting some of the icky ingredients!! ;)

@ larsi

I know what you mean. I've tried Ecover's softener - you may as well use nothing. I know you don't like the Vaska softener, but I find that it works very well when combined with Vaska detergent. The only green fabric softener that actually worked almost as well as Downy in terms of softening was Seventh Generation's product. Vaska's softener is also quite good, although I know you don't like the smell. You said it smells fishy? I think what you are calling "fishy" are the normal, somewhat musty undertones of lavender. I have a bottle of pure lavender essential oil and it also has that humid, musty undertone that quickly disappears once you apply the oil. Once dried, clothes rinsed with Vaska FS come out smelling very light and fresh. Is your complaint about the way the product smells in the bottle or after drying?

Yeah SStava,,,Ecover FS was like using water. Rubbish. Smell was decent I guess, but softening was awful.

Seventh Generation did actually soften, but I only had a choice of unscented or Laveder/Eucaplptus. ICK!

Mrs. Meyers smelled good, but was very waxy and thick!

I did not care for Vaska FS scent in the bottle, or on the dried clothes. It was either fishy or musty as you described. I also found the texture odd and aesthetically unpleasant :)

Using 1/2 the amount of Downy, and topping off with water...the performance is really, really great...and I have a huge amount of scent choices. Even the unscented Downy softens really well!!

@ larsi
I did not care for Vaska FS scent in the bottle, or on the dried clothes. It was either fishy or musty as you described. I also found the texture odd and aesthetically unpleasant :)Yes, now that you mention it... rotfl!

I also have Downy Free & Sensitive. It pours like coffee creamer. You'll laugh at this... I keep it handy in case one of the new natural fabric softeners that I'm trying doesn't work very well. If that happens, I throw in a 1/4 shot of the Downy and it's just enough to put the lesser product over the top.

"including Henkel's new anti-bacterial fabric softener"

It's not a softener, just a disinfectant. Several brands offer their own version now. I think people at Henkel deserve a kick in their @$$e$ for this product. First, we have all these uber-moms on TV telling us how well new Persil acticPower cleans in cold water and then, a few weeks later, they try to tell us that, well, cold water is wonderful...but...sometimes... bacteria is left behind and we should all pour disinfectant into our washers. Here comes Persil disinfectant - what a coincidence! :(

I certainly won't buy (into) that.

BTW, the recommended dose of Persil disinfectant is 90 ml, as far as I remember. That is for European (small capacity) washers. I don't know how much one would have to use in a much larger Miele. On top of that, our softener dispenser does not even hold 90 ml to begin with. Persil says that softener has to be added extra.

Alex

I don't understand these manufacturers. I have been using grapefruit seed extract (GSE) with success as a natural disinfectant for laundry, household surfaces, and external application. 1.5CCs (cubic centimeters) is enough to disinfect a load of laundry. That's 1/4 teaspoon. And you need 6 tablespoons of the Persil disinfectant? Something is amiss.

The Wikipedia article on grapefruit seed extract raises questions about its efficacy as a disinfectant. How do you define "success" in using it?

I'm not a scientist and don't conduct studies in my home. However, it has removed mildew odors from the waistband of some troubled sweat pants that have had that strange odor for years. It also clears up my dog's ear infections and has worked wonders on a difficult toenail fungus. I would qualify all of those as successes.

Phew, I thought Larsi had changed TO TIDE instead of sticking with Persil.

I like Persil better than Ariel, and I hate Downy. The Italian softener that I liked is no longer available but if you look for Lenor at Amazon & Vernel they are available at Amazon from Better Products Online.

I bought 16 bottles of it btw. I adore Lenor! I'm kind of scared to use Tide HE due to oversudsing in my Miele.

I was told to use vinegar in my Miele dishwasher by Miele themselves so I use it a lot in there. So far everything is ok with it.

@ Miele Maid...

"You adore Lenor, but hate Downy".

You do know that they are both made by P&G...and they share the SAME formulas, and even several scents are IDENTICAL to USA and Canadian scents?? P&G just renames Lenor & Downy versions for different markets and countries..SO sorry sweetie...It's all in your mind, if you hate Donwy, but love Lenor :)

OK ... the only Tide compact powder available in Canada is the HE (non bleach) version. It is original scent (same as bleach version is US). Should smell the same right?

It was on sale today so I grabbed a box. We'll see ... I'm a little worried scent will be too much. I tried to smell through the box and it didn't seem over whelming.

Hilarious! I used to only use Tide original and Downy F&C years ago. Now I'm "scared" of it ... LOL ...

My mom was visiting this week so I gave her some Persil megaperls to try in her new LG. She often shops at a German store in her town (as my step father is German) and they sell it. She really liked the smell so she may become a Persil convert.

They have a friend coming to visit from Germany in September and he offered to bring me anything I�d like to try. Any suggestions for German laundry products I should try (different from megaperls since they are readily available here)? Remember I don�t like too much scent (if that�s possible from German products).

I have to say, I'm really liking the Woolite Complete. Very suble scent and gentle cleaning. I used it on Egyptian cotton beach towels today and they are lovely :)

Lenor is my favorite, too! I never used to like Vernel because it would gunk up the dispenser and leave no smell after drying - unlike Lenor. BUT, I recently got to try some Vernel and it's wonderful. Clean dispenser and the scent - oh my! The good thing about Vernel is that you can smell the "final smell" when you open the bottle. Lenor usually smells totally chemical in the bottle and you only know what it really smells like once you used it on your laundry. Don't like the scent? Well, too late! Unfortumately, I took advantage of a special offer and bought seven bottles of Lenor. Oh well, I still love it.

livebetter: obviously, if you want the best, it's either Persil or Ariel. They always rank as the top detergents. Best stain remover: Sil Powder by Henkel. Best dishwasher detergent: Somat 9 tablets or alio powder by Aldi (South).

Livebetter,,,,

Tide he Powder and Tide he Powder with Bleach SMELL 100% DIFFERENT!! The Bleach version smell crisp and herbal (and like old fashioned soap).

Tide he Powder with the Original Scent smells soft and somewhat powdery and of faint perfume..yet clean and non-offensive to me at least.

I think both smell great. If you like more powdery and floral, you will like the non-Bleach version better!

Thanks Whirlpool trainee!

Larsi, how can they both say "original scent" if they smell different? Is there more than one original scent?

The Tide smells somewhat strong in the box although not as strong as Persil. I'll see how dryed laundry smells.

Not even sure why I need to try this ... I'm pretty happy with current selection ... ah the addiction :)

Looks like I need a cross border shop soon! With the Cdn dollar so strong it's an extra incentive.

Larsi - serioiusly, I don't think that Downy & Lenor are the same! They smell completely different. They might both be made by P & G, but P & G also makes Ariel & Tide and SOME people say they're the same but they are also not the same. In fact the Mex Ariel is also really stinky compared to the Euro version of Ariel.

Mielemaid...

Of course they have scents that are different that what we have in the USA and Canada. It's like Dove bar soap and Dove body wash! When I lived in Germany & Austria...Dove smelled totally different than what Dove has smelled like in the USA for decades. BUT...the formula is basically identical.

Same with Lenor and Downy. Different smells somewhat, for different markets...but the formulas are the same. P&G loves maximized profits!!! :)

"The Bleach version smell crisp and herbal (and like old fashioned soap).
Tide he Powder with the Original scent smells soft and somewhat powdery and of faint perfume."

Tide's boxes are sealed so tightly, I couldn't smell anything from either version at the store. I may have to engage in experimental behavior and invest in a box of the 'bleach' version. @larsi's description sounds like that scent wouldn't bother me as much. It may cause another rash/itch-fest from the perfume, for DH and myself, but it's all in the name of (laundry)science.

Do the Tide liquid HE versions smell the same as the corresponding HE powder versions?
Someone will benefit from the perfumed detergents we cannot use.
;o)

@sshrivastava - I know you directed a question to Larsi regarding VASKA, and I have to say I am completely unimpressed with the washing liquid and with the softener which does not really smell that well, except when it's completely dry. If one phones up Vaska (they were sold to a larger company recently) they will send you samples. I got their samples - just not impressed with it.

I LOVE Vaska - I pay to have it shipped to Canada. To each their own obviously but I love the smell of the Herbatergent (don't use the FS) and I think it cleans really well. Of course, I don't wash my dirtiest tea towels with it but for gentle washing of items I'd like to keep nice - superb! I've used it for white sheets/towels with oxygen bleach and they are still very white and clean.

@livebetter - how much Vaska do you use? Full or half cap? It goes nuts over-sudsing in my W4842 at the suggested dose. Every time, and the water here is completely neutral in pH and hardness.

@cavimum, depends on the load. A load of queen/king sheets would get one full cap with 2 tbsp of oxygen bleach. I would use some vinegar in the rinse to help remove any residue. A load of towels would get about the same.

If the sheets were not changed for a few weeks (I hate that but it happens) then I might increase dose to 1-1/2 caps. I would might also use a prewash or extended cycle.

When I do smaller handwash or delicate loads I would use less depending on how many items in the load. Maybe half a cap for a smaller load. I also use it to handwash delicates in the sink (my expensive bras come out beautifully when washed with Vaska).

Water hardness here is moderately hard (8.7 Grains/Imp gallon). I've never had a suds issue with it and it rinses great.

My friend and I order it on line and have it shipped here (we both have Miele W4XXX machines). We both LOVE it and can't imagine laundry without it. My friend has a new baby and does all his laundry with Vaska - I can't stop snuggling him 'cause he smells divine (and he's cute)!

I looked for a LONG time for a nice natural lavender detergent that worked and I finally found it with Vaska. It will be a sad day for me if they don't make it.

I've been using it for several months so I know it works. Nothing is turning dingy.

I just did handwash laundry of mine the other day (some delicate tops) and I just couldn't stop smelling how lovely they all smelled when they were done.

@ mielemaid - Different strokes for different folks. I love Vaska because it leaves my clothes incredibly soft and fluffy. It may not clean as well as Tide, despite Vaska's claims, but for me it's a staple detergent for sheets, pillow cases, duvets, towels, and other items I would like to remain as fresh and soft as possible. These are not items that get heavily stained. I only have sudsing issues w/ Vaska when I wash towels at full dose, so for towels and similar "fluffy" items I cut the dosage in half.

I'm still waiting for the "perfect" detergent that will give me superior cleaning combined with excellent softness. I have recently achieved good results by adding 1.5 TBS of LanoSoft powdered laundry soap to whatever detergent I happen to be using at the time. LanoSoft is primarily soap flakes (w/ glycerin) that help to keep clothes soft even after using a relatively strong detergent like Tide HE. Now my Tide HE loads come out as soft as my Vaska loads, so I'm starting to combine my laundry stash in interesting ways to get the best of both worlds. :)

I just returned from Kroger grocery store. They have Tide Liquid HE Coldwater ~FREE~ formula. That isn't even on Tide's web site yet.

Would the Coldwater formula work well in warm and hot washes? It's a dumb question, but it may only work well in cold water....I am detergent-challenged, and it is perfume free...

I have that one too. It is on the US site (not on Cdn site for some reason).

I found this in FAQs:

What happens if I use warm water by mistake?

Tide Free for Coldwater HE can also be used in warm and hot water washes.

What is the ingredient that makes Tide Free for Coldwater HE better in cold water?

It is difficult to point to any one ingredient as the ingredients in the formulation work synergistically together to maximize the performance of Tide Free for Coldwater HE in cold water washing.

Let us know what you think. I thought it cleaned well. I'm not a fan of detergent is optical brighteners so I don't use it much (every know and then).

Here is a link that might be useful: Tide Free HE Coldwater

@livebetter - Thanks for the link! I did not see any whiteners, brighteners, or optical brighteners in the ingredients list. This might be the thing for my dark colors. Tide's regular F&C has a flourescent brightener.

@cavimum, every Tide product has brighteners so I assume this is an oversight on their part. I will email them to find out. I too would be excited to find out it did not contain OBAs. I can't see why the regular HE Free would have them but not the coldwater version?

If you have Woolite Complete at a store near you - try it for your darks. I'm really enjoying it and using more than I thought. It has a fragrance but it is very mild (unless even a littel is too much for you).

I have not used Tide for cold water but I have a friend who says that Tide for cold water is awful. She's also into laundry, cleaning, etc.

@livebetter - I never considered Woolite. Just now looked it up on the 'net, but the product graphics don't show HE version.

Do you use the darks formula in your Miele? Sudsing?

A little fragrance may not bother me, but the itching is another story. I'm game to try it if it is HE safe.

@cavimum, the US site doesn't show it but the Cdn site shows what my bottle says. For both top load and front load. Same dosage for both.

I haven't had any suds issue with it.

I have not used the darks version. Here in Canada we also have a version for colors. Both darks and color have a die catching ingredient to keep clothes from taking on color from other items in the wash.

My mom has the dark version and likes it.

I find the darks and color have a little more scent to them.

I bought the complete one because my Costco had it for a good price. I've used it for my husband's dress shirts (Italian cotton), towels, sheets, nice clothes. No enzymes and no brighteners.

Here is a link that might be useful: Woolite Cdn Site

@mielemaid - Did your friend say why she did not like Tide Cold Water formula? Cleaning? scent? left clothes feeling scratchy?

@livebetter - Down here, Woolite is either loved or hated by people. For the past twenty years, most of the people who mention Woolite have nothing good to say about it, but it has its fans, and obviously is still in business.

@cavimum, I guess it depends on how you view laundry and detergent. I'm not from the camp of "one detergent for all things".

Detergent like Tide (or any myriad of others) are created to tackle almost any stain known to mankind. All that "stuff" (ie. enzymes, brighteners, surfactants) takes a toll on fabric.

This is what Woolite says about that:

Q: What does "washing related damage" mean?

A: Washing related damage is damage to your clothes that has occurred due to repeated chemical, temperature related or mechanical wear on your clothes during the wash. Certain ingredients that may be included in laundry detergents can damage clothing fibers and colours. This, in combination with high washing temperatures and heavy centrifuging, can cause your clothes to "age prematurely".

I've read comments from people who try to wash a dirty/stained load (ie. tea towels) with a gentle detergent and then declare it doesn't work. You need to select your detergent based on what you're washing.

I do use products like Persil/Tide but only when I feel that kind of power is needed. Even some greener choices like Seventh Generation, Shaklee, Method contain enzymes and maybe brighteners.

There are many items I wash where a gentle detergent to remove "daily" dirt is all that's needed. Any special stains would need a pretreatment.

My husband's dress shirts for example; he wears them once. He's pretty neat so rarely is there a food type stain. He has some collar dirt but not excessive; I pretreat the collars and wash with a delicate detergent like Vaska or Woolite Complete (with a little oxygen bleach). His shirts look wonderful. He buys expensive Italian cotton custom shirts and they stay looking good for many years.

These are obviously personal preferences/choices but it's working for me currently. The only down side is trying to decide which detergent to use :)

If I run across some of the Woolite Dark HE, I will sniff-test it and might give it a try. I'm desperate for something that won't lighten my dark clothing over time, beyond the norm.

Our clothes don't get really dirty and the perfume issue is going to limit our choices. I once tried adding some BIZ liquid to DH's sweaty golf shirts. The perfume odor permeated the house, and he broke out in a rash from it. BIZ liquid is far more heavily perfumed than the powder, but I still only use it for soaking mystery stains. It was a godsend for grass stains, back when our son played middle school football.

re: Seventh Generation detergent - Several years ago, I tried the SG "hypoallergenic" powder. It said "hypoallergenic" on the box and had no scent. I did a whole week's worth of laundry in one day with it, including sheets & towels. The next day, DH was fine but I was broken out in the worst red itchy rash and found a dermatologist who could work me in that day to give me a Kenalog shot. $90 later, I will never ever go near Seventh Generation again. (I also had to re-wash everything.) Years later, I stumbled upon that web site which shows lab-test residues, and SG had the highest residue, so I attribute my experience to that.

@Cavimum, I would highly recommend unscented Vaska for your darks and delicate laundry. I absolutely love it. It's great at removing deodorant residue and various smells and yet gentle enough for wool, silk and cashmere. My local Target carries it (in a special natural cleaner section, not detergent section). I've tried a number of detergents over the last 10 or so months, and Vaska Unscented hands down is the best detergent for darks and delicates.

For what it's woth: this is my current stash. Ariel Compact powder and Lenor powder for colors. Ariel stain remover and Perwoll for washing duvets in this wonderful new machine. Lots of Lenor softener as I took advantage of said special offer. And no, I usually don't stack this stuff like this. *lol*

@whirlpool trainee - If your stash actually stayed stacked like that, then you definitely have NO vibration issues at all from your washer. LOL

@izeve - I'll try the Vaska with clothing. It makes terrible suds with towels.

@cavimum, I LOVE Vaska too. It's just great.

Try putting a small amount of vinegar in your bleach compartment. This will help squelch suds (I think).

Also, you should notice less sudsing with clothes. Towels can create a lot of suds as they are not very dirty and they are thick.

Let us know how you like it.

@whirlpool trainee, is the Ariel Compact Powder like the Tide Compact Powder here? Sounds similar. How is the Lenor for colors? Are they both heavily scented?

@ Whirlpool trainee....

Your machine looks just like our Whirlpool Duet (that still say Made in Germany, although some batches are saying Mexico).

Ist Bauknecht eine deutsche Firma??

Lenor Pulverseife hab' ich nie gesehen. Neu?

No no, I don't stack anything on the washer. It does shake some with heavy loads of denim and other stuff.

Ariel compact is P&G's top detergent over here. Not heavily scented, in my opinion. I don't know about about all the ingredients of Tide. I think Ariel has more enzymes - five versus one or two in Tide (last time I checked). Lenor detergent is brand new. Supposed to infuse laundry with its scent. It's as if Downy would sell a detergent. I haven't found it to be as effective as softener. Won't buy it again.

Yes, the washer is mostly the same as your original Whirlpool Duets - not the newest ones - with some modifications for the European market, like a powerful heater and the ability to do 203F washes. Bauknecht is a German company but was bought by Whirlpool years ago.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: for Larsi: Lenor Detergent

@cavimum, yep ... I thought so. Tide's response to my question re: brighteners in the Coldwater HE Free.

"Thanks for contacting Tide.

I do apologize for any confusion but Tide Coldwater Free HE does contain optical brighteners. The only detergent that P&G manufactures that does not contain optical brighteners is Cheer Powder.

Hope this helps!"

I didn't think it was possible for that one not to contain brighteners when every other flavor does. Sorry ...

@livebetter - Thank you for following up. I figured there had to be an error on Tide's ingredient list on their web site. We can't trust anything on the internet, can we?! LOL

Cheer's web site is not as informative or user-friendly as Tide's. There doesn't seem to be a F&C cheer HE powder and their liquid 'dark colors' formula is heavily perfumed. Bummer.

@cavimum, go for the Vaska - it really great.

P&G followed up to tell me the Cheer powder is not HE.

@livebetter - I have too many sudsing problems with Vaska. I don't know why. Last week, I washed two bath towels, four hand towels, some washcloths, 1/2 cup Vaska, 'Sensitive' setting for extra rinse, and had to re-rinse before I saw no bubbles. I really like the scent and wish it worked in my home.

@cavimum, try it on something other than towels. They tend to be extra suddsy. See how it works on a load of dark clothes.

I assume you meant 1/2 cap not 1/2 cup?

@livebetter - yes, 1/2 capful and not 1/2 cup. ;-)

So i read most of the thread here and i am still at loss here... i don't have that much laundry as i been waiting forever for my only bottle of tide to finish its half way done.

What do most recommend Persil combo for washing or something else? I have stopped using dryer sheets as my gas dryer produces little to no static and clothes come out smelling fine to me.

I was thinking of getting persil universal and persil colour (megaperls) but after reading this thread i am back to square one.

I;ve been using Tide Total Care on our dark clothes for at least 5 years, maybe more. I also turn them inside out when I wash them (also done that for years). And use vinegar in the final rinse. None have faded.

I *really* liked Woolite for Darks when I had a traditional washer. I haven't seen an HE formula. If I do, I'll definitely try it.

Am I the only one that dreams of having Persil Color PULVER here in the U.S?

We have the Universal Powder, which I love and have been using for a decade, but I only use it for whites.

Not a huge fan of Megaperls in general, and despise liquids for the most part.

Any ideas of where it might be found, short of a trip to Germany?

I wonder if German Amazon ships to the US?

@ whirlpool trainee

I was wondering the very same thing. I can place items in den Einkaufswagen, but that's as far as I've gotten. I don't know the language well enough to figure it out.

I'd be in heaven, or bankrupt, if I could order from Amazon.de, lol.