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Miele Cycles

Posted by cyberspacer (My Page) on
Sun, Jun 12, 11 at 4:54

In researching the W4842 and T9802 washer dryer pair I came across this interesting cycle: Beachtowels. At first I thought great because we wash beach towels often enough that it seemed like a Miele fabric care program would do a very good job of cleaning and preserving my towels. On closer study of the program the users manual states that it's a program that rinses sand from beach towels, and that detergent shouldn't be used. WHAT!?! What kind of stupid program is that? It will rinse my towels but won't wash them for the next use? Yeah, right! What is Miele product development thinking! Why not take this cycle and make it into a useful Towels cycle that washes AND rinses.

As long as I'm discussing dumb cycles, how about their table linens program? Made for napkins and tablecloths, but no temperature selection available for Very Warm, Hot or Sanitize. How would you get those items clean without higher temps when table linen is commonly stained with tea, coffee, chocolate, wine, oils, etc? To make matters worse, THERE ARE NO OPTIONS FOR EXTENDED AND PREWASH. Duh! Miele... WAKE UP!


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Miele Cycles

My guess -- not many sandy beaches in Germany so not much experience with beach towels? I saw that in my owners manual too.

As for the other cycles you mentioned, it reminds me of sewing machines. The more expensive the machine, the more decorative stitches they have. Yet maybe 1% of the owners will use any of those stitches. Manufacturers figure if we pay more, we want more, whether or not we use it. JMO, though.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ cyberspacer

But... but... we have 12 Mastercare cycles! Shame on you for examining whether those cycles actually do anything useful. Haha! I look at these fancy cycles like fonts. While I may want to use one of them once in a while, I generally stick with the basics. However, you and I are not Miele's target audience. Miele is going after the low information launderer.

I'll assume that Miele did a lot of market research in putting together these custom programs. The linens program is likely based on the most prevalent type of care label for that fabric type, which is probably going to be warm wash only w/ bleach. This machine was designed with a "set it and go" mentality. Miele figures there's the "Custom" cycle for people like us.


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RE: Miele Cycles

One might think that the Custom cycle could imitate any of the MasterCare cycles. But it can't, because it doesn't allow selection of the wash rhythm.


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RE: Miele Cycles

I LOVE, LOVE the Beach Towels Cycle and use it every week. While I have used it for Beach Towels, I use it as a pre-rinse for my very active Pre-Schooler. It does not use much water, does not heat the water (very energy wise) and spins with Max Spin. It removes any sand that is trapped inside little pockets and removes dust and dirt.

Great & smart cycle!


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RE: Miele Cycles

So you find the Beach Towels cycle more satisfactory than the obvious choices, Quick Rinse or the prewash option. To me, this doesn't speak well of Miele. You have to "game" the machine instead of using it in a straightforward manner.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Suburbanmd...

I have my machine set to Water+ /Extra Rinse. So using Quick Rinse adds 2 high water level rinses. Using Beach Towels does not do this. I find Beach towels to be very economical, and very effective!


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RE: Miele Cycles

submd

Like larsi I sometimes use cycles for other than their intended purposes, e.g., I love the silk cycle for hand washables. Spin cycle is slower than hand wash cycle and thus creates almost no wrinkles when clothes is air dried.

I do agree however that naming a cycle such as Beachtowels is so far off the mark and contradicts Mieles marketing that touts the user friendliness/ease of use of their products. As I stated previously in another post, if the heavy soil option has been switched back to "prewash" then rename sensitive back to "extra rinse." Hello! Enough with the schizophrenic product development.


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RE: Miele Cycles

I live on the beach and find the Beachtowels option a nice one to have and use it often.


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RE: Miele Cycles

"I love the silk cycle for hand washables."

Thanks for the tip, cyberspacer. Hand wash is the only cycle of that type I have not tried yet. (I've used the Delicate, Silk, and Express cycles.)

I like to use the Delicates cycle for hats and visors, because the water is up to the glass on the door so the headgear gets a good dunking, and there are three rinses.

Wrinkle-Free is my other favorite for regular clothes, because the rinse level is fairly high. I'm doing a load of laundry right now with that cycle and the "Extended" option, since it is full of sweaty golf shirts.

My owners manual is full of notes, as I have used a lot of the cycles and written down length of wash, number of rinses, and water levels for wash & rinse. I just wish it had a "soak" cycle, like my neighbor's Whirlpool Duet has.


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RE: Miele Cycles

larsi and cyberspacer both found cycles, seemingly unrelated to the task at hand, that do the job better than the cycles Miele provides for that task. This surely took a lot of experimenting and watching the machine, because the manual doesn't give you a clue. Most people won't do that, because of lack of time and/or interest. I claim that one of the following is true: 1) You guys have very unique laundry requirements that aren't shared by the thousands of other Miele owners; or 2) A lot of Miele owners aren't having their needs met as well as they could be, because of poor cycle design, or a lack of information.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@suburbanmd - I personally have 'control' issues when it comes to the washing machine. LOL I read the owners manual until my brain is saturated and I still miss stuff.

With my old TL, I wore out one timer knob, and the second one was beginning to get spazzy, mostly because I often created my own manual version of "extended".

I like the more diverse options with the W4842, even though once the cycles start, that door is usually LOCKED (ack!) once it begins, depending on the cycle.

I think the majority of the population just toss their stuff into the washer, add detergent, and press "Start" and all turns out well, anyway no matter which brand they own.


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RE: Miele Cycles

If you can afford a Miele, you probably live on the beach or have a beach house somewhere in your vast real estate empire... so naturally a beach towels cycle is mandatory. Duh.

Seriously, though, Miele is in love with these custom cycles. I have pasta and cheese cycles on my La Perla dishwasher. All it means is that one is optimized for starches, the other proteins, and both are more intensive than pots/pans. But if I use those cycles for dishes that have no pasta or cheese on them, that doesn't mean Miele did something wrong in naming or designing the cycles.The same can be said for their washing machines. Use what works.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Sstava....LOVE my La Perla dishwasher. That along with the Miele SpeedOven and Induction Cooktop have made me and my kitchen best of friends!!!


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RE: Miele Cycles

Just because a certain cycle doesn't fit into your life doesn't mean someone else isn't using it and loving it.

Hey ... it's not all about you :)

If Miele is so lame in how they label buttons ... buy something else. I notice Miele is the only brand people get all bend out of shape over. If what they've done isn't "perfect" in your eyes. It's just a washing machine machine folks.

I personally love my W4842. Can't believe I ever doubted getting it. Some of the custom cycles I love (ie. comforters, extra white) some I have never used (beach towels) - oh well.

Although, like others have mentioned, these custom cycles are just a specific drum rhythm and fill level etc ... if you find it useful for other laundry - go for it. It's just laundry.

Larsi, ooooooo induction. I have a Dacor gas range and just told my husband that I'm done with gas. What a PITA to clean these things with grates and rings etc. I'm looking very hard at induction for the next cooking surface. Not sure how I feel about the "mirco" like waves though?


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RE: Miele Cycles

Livebetter...

Induction is the main cooking source in Germany, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Japan....and it has been used and studied extensively for over 30+ years. It is 100% safe and it ROCKS!!

I cooked with gas growing up and in all 3 of the homes I owned. EVERYDAY taking apart grates and rings to clean stir fry messes, splashed salty pasta water, bubbled over sauces, etc.. A nightmare and a total waste of time. And then you have standing there cooking over a hot flame and the kitchen is all heated up due to open gas flames blasting heat in the whole kitchen.

I will NEVER, NEVER cook with gas again. Induction is faster, cleaner and 90% efficient (I think gas is like 60-70% efficient).

Now, I actually (sub-consciously) see how much mess I can make during cooking! Have I increased my cooking with buttter and olive oil?? The entire Induction Cooktop (36" 5 burners) can be a total mess....and it cleans up with water, and a microfiber cloth and maybe a spray of Windex in about 20 seconds!!!! NO grates, no rings, no knobs.

You will FLIP for Induction. I would give up my fancy washer, dryer, Speed Oven and probably my dishwasher to keep my Induction Cooktop. It's really that good!!!!!

Here's my cooktop in my kitchen:
Photobucket
Photobucket


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ larsi

Love your backsplash... is that travertine or Mexican noche?


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RE: Miele Cycles

I'll try again... Larsi, you're using Beach Towels as a pre-rinse, and are delighted by it. I hasten to add that this is fine, nothing wrong with it, I may try it, and in any event I'll defend to the death your right to do it :-) My question is, do you think it's such a good pre-rinse that other W484X owners would also be delighted by it? Or are Quick Rinse and "Heavy Soil" fine, if not equally delightful, and discovering alternate uses for cycles is just something that you enjoy (which is also fine, nothing wrong with it, etc.)?


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RE: Miele Cycles

"Quick Rinse" cycle fills up to door twice, no spin after first rinse--water just drains out and spins only at the end.

How are the default water levels on "Beach Towels" cycle? (My levels have not been tweaked)


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RE: Miele Cycles

Sstava..Thank you. Travertine :)

Suburbanmd...I think Beach Towels works beautifully for a pre-rinse for my kid's dusty, sometimes sandy pre-school clothes. Uses WAY less water than Quick Rinse.

Cavium...I have my machine set to Water+/Extra Rinse. So if I use Quick Rinse..it fills the drum with A LOT of water 2x. Beach towels uses very little water. And it used No heat for the water, so very economical.


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RE: Miele Cycles

How long is the Beach Towel cycle compared to the quick rinse?

MRB


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RE: Miele Cycles

I think the Beach Towels cycle is 22 or 24 mins. Quick Wash is, I think, 18 mins.

Not much difference...but again for me Beach Towels is the best for pre-rinsing dusty of lightly sandy preschooler clothes.

If I need a true, and deep rinse...I use Quick Rinse!


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RE: Miele Cycles

My point is simply this: Owners should be able to use their machine to full advantage, without having to spend hours watching and experimenting. Miele could at least describe what each cycle does. Better, they could provide a chart of tasks, and list the primary and alternate cycles suitable for each task. This wouldn't involve any re-engineering, or renaming of cycles.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@suburbanmd, that would involve actual "marketing" and we've already ascertained they are not cutting edge in that department.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@suburbanmd - We could all share information and compile a list here. I've taken notes on many of the cycles I have used and can contribute. At the least, it would help forum members here. This topic header of "Miele Cycles" is a perfect place for it, too, IMO.


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RE: Miele Cycles

That's true, but what about the other 99.99% of Miele owners? I'm concerned about Miele owner satisfaction, because IMO we can't take for granted Miele's continued presence in the North American laundry market. This isn't based on any rumors, just a gut feeling. So I want them to have happy customers.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Maybe we should all sign a petition asking Miele USA to fire its marketing staff and to hire a decent branding firm. We could probably teach Miele a lot.


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RE: Miele Cycles

I just looked quickly at the Miele website today - just to see what they have these days

Looks like all of their machines are 110 volts rather than the 220 volts that Asko's European washing program machines are.

What does the 110 volt situation mean in terms of the cycles that Miele's American machines can do.

For example do the Miele 110 volt machines do a profile wash?

Can they raise wash temperatures to 205 degrees?


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RE: Miele Cycles

No, none of the current machines sold by Miele in the US market can neither do a profile wash nor heat to temps over 158F. Miele's US machines have been re-designed to suit the way Americans do laundry. For those who want profile wash capability and need to heat water to 200F+, Asko is your best option for 220v machines in the US market.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Thanks.

I admit I was lazy in asking my question but knew that you folks that keep up on all of this would know right away.

I think that's incredible that Miele does not offer at least some "European Wash System" machines in the US.

So far as I know then Asko is the only one offering "European Wash System machines here.

Currently have a Bosch that is a few years old and it is also based on the American Style cycles but have thought that when it's time to replace would go with the Euro Style Wash System...

Kind of narrows the field doesn't it.

I realize that Asko's largest machines (which appear t be manufactured in Asia) are not Euro Wash System machines but their standard machines still are.

Very interesting.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Asko's XXL machines are manufactured in Asia and are made for the US market (110v with limited high temp capability). However, the smaller Asko units (6kg) are 220v European-style. I had a small Asko Euro set, but since getting my Miele I can say that I don't miss those high temps one bit. Over time, washing at 160 or higher has gradually ruined my fabrics. The Miele goes up to 158F, and I hardly ever use that high temperature unless I really need to nuke something.


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RE: Miele Cycles

I assume that Miele European units (those sold in Europe) are "still" the Euro Style Wash?


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RE: Miele Cycles

I just reviewed the manual for one of the current Miele machines.

Amazing a compartment for and instructions for using chlorine bleach.

This blows my mind....


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RE: Miele Cycles

I just reviewed the manual for one of the current Miele machines.
Amazing a compartment for and instructions for using chlorine bleach.

This blows my mind....


This was done for the North American market to say that had the feature as other brands do. You can remove the compartment and disable the feature within the firmware selections, as I have done or have a Miele Tech do it for you.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Oh I know that you don't have to use the feature

And sure most things should not be washed above 140 or 160 tops but if I remember correctly European wash systems are based on time and temperature not using additives like chlorine bleach

I'm not being critical, I actually like having the option to use chlorine bleach as I do in my Bosch (for whites) - it's just surprising that the Euro wash system seems to have been abandoned by Miele in America - effectively abandoning "that" field to Asko.

Pretty much everyone here already knows about European wash habits but here is a link to P&G UK

http://www.scienceinthebox.com/en_UK/research/washabits_en.html


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RE: Miele Cycles

With the latest detergents, high heat is not a necessity. Even German Persil advertises being able to wash and clean down to 20C (68F), so lower temperature washing must be a growing trend in Europe. I'm very picky about my laundry and it took a huge leap of faith for me to replace my Euro style Asko. But I'm here to say that the new Miele cleans better than my Asko, and at lower temps.


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RE: Miele Cycles

"Boil Washing" was something they had to do in the old days since detergents were not very advanced. Detergents are much better now and it is not necessary to boil.

High heat is very hard on fabrics and especially anything with elastic in it.

I wash our whites (like socks) in my W4842 on extra white, extended, sensitive (hot or very warm) with Persil Universal and they come out very clean and white.

I sometimes add a prewash too if they are particularly dirty. This cycle can take 2 hours so I usually set the delayed start for early morning hours. When I get up the load is ready for the dryer.

I've read many complaints from users about the long cycle times of the more European machines. This is what gets the clothes clean (cleaner than their old TL machines) but they don't get it.

Miele did design the W4XXX for the NA consumer. Considering bleach is a part of our wash habits (not mine mind you) it makes sense that they would include it for those who want it.

You know what they say about old dogs and new tricks :)

I only use my bleach dispenser for running the clean machine cycle with bleach.

I've never had a machine that did a boil wash but I am very pleased with the cleanliness of my laundry with my W4842. I rarely use hot and I have never used sanitary (except for during clean machine).


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RE: Miele Cycles

Maybe we should all sign a petition asking Miele USA to fire its marketing staff and to hire a decent branding firm. We could probably teach Miele a lot.

@sshrivastava,

A Miele mutiny...now that's funny! We need to get Larsi to chime in here, but if you have ever dealt with the Germans on issues (as I have) you'll learn that they are stubborn as all hell when it comes to their engineering, branding, etc.


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RE: Miele Cycles

"...but if you have ever dealt with the Germans on issues (as I have) you'll learn that they are stubborn as all hell when it comes to their engineering, branding, etc."
It's the culture. LOL I have a wonderful book titled "Culture Shock: Germany" in which we are told that they never admit to being wrong, even when they dial a wrong phone number.

I find it interesting that the Miele user manual directs us to use LCB for the Clean Machine cycle.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Well like i said, I actually like the idea of having the option to use LCB as I do in my Bosch.

My partner always uses the 'quick" wash but longer cycle times don't bother me - I always use the standard cycles (regular mostly)

So what I'm hearing you all say is that although American Miele machines have changed to 110 Volt and can't do a profile wash from cold to the desired set temperature (whatever you have selected) that you feel that these new wash cycles are as satisfactory as what you have experienced with their Euro Style machines.

What do you guys think about the P&G UK link?

I realize that the date is 2005 but they are saying that doing laundry the Euro Way gets out more soil...relative to what Americans and Japanese achieve - so do you think that it's outdated material?


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RE: Miele Cycles

Deutsche...Dickkopfig?? Nie!! LOL

We don't have to ever worry about being wrong, because we never are!! I kid, I kid!

Seriously, my biggest pet peeve with the W48XX Series is Heavy Soil not being called Pre-Wash. Just crazy!


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RE: Miele Cycles

I know, I know .... you should never admit a mistake even if you dialed the wrong number?

I'm kidding too..... lol


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RE: Miele Cycles

Well, I just checked the Miele UK website (I can't read German)

I know it's not news, we've already discussed it but I had a few minutes so I went to the Miele UK website to check out their models and to download an operating manual

Well of course their machines are the European wash system

Well as I said its' very interesting (to me anyway) but I can't believe that they don't offer "any" Euro machines here but what is - is - I guess.


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RE: Miele Cycles

What do you guys think?

Would it be possible to import a Euro model say from Britain?


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ timindy

Many, many years ago when I was a kid (I'm 42 now) my mom imported a Pfaff sewing machine w/ digital controls. During one of our trips to Germany, we found a dealer willing to insure and ship the machine w/ matching cabinet to the US. In today's internet age, I don't see why you couldn't contact a UK reseller and ask them to ship a machine to you. The bigger issue, however, will be obtaining service if you have a problem - you will be completely on your own. No thanks!

You will probably need to pay some trivial import tax. I imported an induction cooktop from New Zealand about 5 years ago (cost about $2,000) and I had to pay an import tax of $35 since it was for personal use, not resale. No big deal.


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Sanitary Cycle Behavior?

I just ran a sanitary cycle on some dish towels and I have a question. Even though I have enabled Extra Rinse/Water+, Maximum Water Level, Automatic Load Control and Allergy in the service menu, the Sanitary cycle does not utilize the spray nozzle which sprays the porthole - all fills are via the detergent drawer. This is different than the behavior of other cycles. Also, the rinse levels are NOT up to the door like they are on the other cycles. I have confirmed this to be the case with Allergy on and off.

Is everyone else seeing the same behavior on the Sanitary cycle or am I just insane?


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RE: Miele Cycles

Of course there is the training issue but wouldn't you think that Miele would provide service?

After all there are Euro machines that they have sold in the USA in the past and wouldn't there at least be some possibility that someone from Europe would move to the USA and bring their machine with them?


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RE: Miele Cycles

Contrary to the general sense of this thread, I think Miele bent to North American requirements as little as possible when designing the W48XX washers. They still have long cycles, and they still have honest temperatures.

Most countries outside North America have a 50 Hz electrical supply, not our 60 Hz. You'd have to make sure the machine could be adapted to run on 60 Hz. From what I've read, converting 60 Hz to 50 Hz is an expensive proposition.


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RE: Miele Cycles

THIS THREAD IS ABOUT CYCLES, NOT IMPORTING MACHINES... BACK ON TOPIC PLEASE!

Can anyone help me figure out what's happening with with my Sanitary Cycle? It doesn't spray water into the drum like the other cycles, and it also does not have higher rinse levels like the other cycles despite turning on the respective options in the service menu. Has anyone else experience this, and if so, why do you think the Sanitary Cycle is programmed so differently?


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RE: Miele Cycles

Thanks suburbanmd - I had not thought about the 50 Hz / 60 Hz thing and I wouldn't go through all of that to import a machine.

I didn't mean to be off topic .

I posted here because we have been discussing cycles - the difference between the Euro Cycles and American Cycles etc and the fact that Miele doesn't offer a machine with a European Cycle option - which is the entire reason that I even visited the Miele UK website to see that they do in fact still wash the Euro way in Europe.

I didn't think it worthwhile to begin an entirely new thread just for that question alone.

This thread is also not about induction cooktops or back splashes but I do get the point.

Thanks everyone.


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RE: Miele Cycles

I posted a new thread about the Sanitary Cycle, sorry about the caps. I was just worried nobody would see my question.


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RE: Miele Cycles

I used the "Normal" cycle on my W4842 this morning for a small load of bath towels, with "Sensitive" also engaged.
The last 10 to 12 minutes of the cycle were devoted to final spin. Is this standard with the Normal cycle?


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RE: Miele Cycles - amount of detergent

Surfing around at the Miele-UK site was interesting. Some of their machines actually sense (weigh?) the load size and then advise how much detergent to add. Their washing chart also gives recommendations to the weight of a load for each cycle.

It would be nice if we had these features over here in North America. Making the transition from TL to FL would be a lot easier, IMO.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From the User's Manual:

Add detergent
When the door is closed, the load size indicator will be replaced with the detergent percentage display.

The percentage shown relates to the amount of detergent recommended by the manufacturer on the packaging.

40% = Add slightly less than half the amount recommended
50% = Add half the amount recommended
60% = Add slightly more than half the amount recommended
75% = Add three quarters of the amount recommended
100% = Add the full amount of detergent recommended

Here is a link that might be useful: User's manual


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RE: Miele Cycles

Cavimum, the Custom cycle on my W4840 used to start drain and spin with 12 minutes remaining in the cycle. Then something changed (adapting to something that it observed?), and since then it has started drain and spin with 10 minutes remaining. The estimated cycle times also got 2 minutes shorter.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Your cycle time will reduce by a handful of minutes if you turn off the bleach dispenser via the service menu. Could that be the reason?

@ Cavimum...

Do the dosage recommendations by load weight factor whether the detergent is 2x or 3x concentrated as well as the hardness of the water? Without taking those two variables into account, the dosage recommendation is pretty useless in my opinion.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@sshrivastava - I haven't gone into the service menu (technophobe) but the bleach dispenser stays out of the soap tray except when I Clean Machine, which probably doesn't affect it like going into the menu.

Good point about 2x and 3x, as they may only have one kind over in the UK. I may still buy a kitchen scale and weigh my laundry if it affects how much of whatever I use, since eyeballing it has not always been successful at this end and I've had to rinse out excess detergent, not to mention how bad that is for the tub and growing gross things back in there.

@suburbanmd - Interesting about your machine's cycle times. Since the Normal hasn't been used before, perhaps this was . . . normal.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Note

Frontloaders, without chlorine bleach option, are equipped with a 4-position
water path control unit (M24).

Frontloaders with chlorine bleach option are equipped with a water path control
unit (M24) with an additional 5th position.

Refer to Appliance, Technical Data and Wiring Diagram.

The above is from the Miele service manual. The North America units have the 5 valve assembly atop the dispenser (there a label indicating that it is a 5 valve, and I can post a photograph of it if members wish). If you are not going to use the bleach dispenser at all, then you can use the Service Menu to disable the bleach setting. This will turn off the fifth valve in any program using the bleach setting. This information was obtained through one of the Miele techs that serviced our washer and asked if we intended to use bleach or not. The fifth valve flushes the bleach dispenser tray when installed.


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RE: Miele Cycles

People, people, people,

@ sshrivastava

"Do the dosage recommendations by load weight factor whether the detergent is 2x or 3x concentrated as well as the hardness of the water? Without taking those two variables into account, the dosage recommendation is pretty useless in my opinion."

The %-age the machine is telling you to use is of the manufacturer's recommened amount, which, presumably, already takes the concentration into account, so this is actually a very useful. The hardness of the water is another story, but the 2x, 3x, etc. concentration issue is moot.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Today I went into the programming, and (hopefully) raised the water levels on our W4842. (I'll find out later today when I do laundry.)

There was an option called "Rinse Process", which I avoided.
Anyone know what that is?


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ Cavimum

Rinse Process and Allergy come from the factory set to OFF. I have run my machine with both options turned on and there is no difference. Some here claim that Allergy makes the machine try harder and longer to get a good spin, but my machine behaves exactly the same with Allergy set to on or off. Same number of spins, same number of rinses and water comes from the same place, cycle length times are identical.

Rinse Process supposedly utilizes a thermistor to determine whether the rinse is clean. A thermistor is a word mash of thermometer and resistor. It essentially measures the water temperature. I don't know if this is a good way to determine rinse effectiveness, especially here in Arizona where "cold" tap rinse water can be over 100 F in the summer.

The setting which makes the biggest difference in rinse levels is Maximum Water Level. This is specifically for areas with very soft water or homes with water softeners. I have this option enabled, as I have a whole house softener, and it's wonderful. All my clothes come out great.

OH and a quick tip for those with whole house softeners who may experience some suds issues with a new detergent. If you see abnormally high sudsing during the wash phase, turn the bypass valves on your water softener before your first rinse. This will bring hard tap water into your machine, quickly neutralizing any leftover detergent. You will notice almost zero suds in the hard water rinse. After the first rinse is done filling, restore the bypass valves to the soft water position and the 2nd/3rd rinses will be soft water. Voila!


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RE: Miele Cycles

SERIOUSLY??

I might just be insane, but go with me on this... I was washing a load of pet blankets and a few rugs on Extra White with Heavy Soil and Extended options. For the first time, and contrary to prior behavior, my machine initiated a spin after draining the pre-wash water. It has never done this before to my knowledge. It has always drained the pre-wash and then filled up with the main wash without any interim spin.

Is this normal behavior, or am I going crazy?


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RE: Miele Cycles

Do any of you know how the "Hand wash" cycle on the W4842 differs from the "Delicates" cycle, as far as water level for wash, rinse, "agitation" (for lack of a better word) action? TIA


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ cyberspacer
Agreed, the beach towels cycle is completely lame. If it did a "special" prewash and then washed the towels normally I'd say ok, but as is, it's pointless.
I also understand the frustration with the lockout on certain wash parameters. I know Miele errors on the side of caution with their wash programs but why I wont ever be able to do a prewash on delicates but can on hand wash, I'll just never understand.

@ Cavimum
Rinse process only works when wash temps are above the incoming cold line temperature. If selected on, during the first rinse, the washer will not continue on to the second rinse until the temperature has stopped increasing in the drum for a set amount of time. The theory being at that point the rinse water has thoroughly diluted the laundry. I found in the past depending on the wash temperature this can vary the program time dramatically. Also, I think it may override other rinse options but I could be wrong about that.

@ sshrivastava
You aren't crazy. That is one wash program that does a spin after the prewash. I guess it helps keep those whites extra white.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ mieleforme

Do you recommend enabling Rinse Process in the secret program menu? Do you think that high incoming "cold" temperature - such as here in Arizona - may confuse the Rinse Process logic? Incoming "cold" can be as high as 90-100 degrees during the peak of summer (now) when it's 110-115 outside. In this situation, Rinse Process may work for a very warm or hot wash, but might get confused at warm or "cold" wash temps when the incoming temp will be higher than the selected wash temp.

What do you think?


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RE: Miele Cycles

Personally I think if the majority of your loads are large, it may be very beneficial. If you're one to add the extra rinses and or water plus, you may find you don't need that anymore. As far as the incoming water temp, I know the machine monitors all of that. It would be my guess the wash program would just continue on as normal if the incoming rinse water was too close or even hotter than the wash water, rendering this feature ineffective.

That's some hot tap water.....


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RE: Miele Cycles

FWIW, and on the European machines, Rinse Process only works for cycles of 140F and up.

Alex


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RE: Miele Cycles

Well, in that case it's abilities are a bit limited. 140F gives you the very warm, hot, and sanites programs only. Still yet I try it.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ whirlpool_trainee

Are you sure that applies to Rinse Process? It sounds like what you are referring to is Suds Cooling, but that feature only kicks in above 160F. This machine can only go to 158F, so even Suds Cooling is not a feature that would ever kick in.


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RE: Miele Cycles

This is very interessting to read. I am from Prague, Czech Republic, been living in Florida fro 6 years and yes, the way we wash clothes in Europe is completely different as so are the washing machines. I was not aware that even Miele is making different models customized to the American market. In Europe clothes last you years and years and we always wash clothes in warm or hot water, unless we wash wool sweaters or so. Almost nobody has a top load machine, which is very common here in America.
And I am honestly very surprise that the washing machines here never use the very hot water. I guess that explains why some of the stains never come off.
Very interessting reading!


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RE: Miele Cycles

@Anceska - Here in the U.S., most of the care labels on our clothing have instructions to wash in COLD water.

Even clothing from Europe have it. My husband just returned from a golf trip to Ireland and Northern Ireland, and he brought back four very nice golf $hirt$ he purchased while there. All four are labeled for Delicate cycle in COLD water. (more laundry sorting for me) Two of these shirts are Italian brands and made in Italy.
I don't know what the Irish, Europeans and UK who live there would do with the shirts, but I will wash them as instructed for fear of shrinkage, and will most likely put them on an "extended" cycle option.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Well of course some fabrics cannot be washed in hot water. But what I was trying to say was that washing machines in Europe use much higher temperatures and their cycles are based on either 30C 40C 60C or 90C. Not sure The exact Farenheit equivalent. I am now returning a new Samsung washer because even the hot cycle is lukewarm and to me that can't clean well towels or whites or heavily soiled items. Again not talking about specialty care fabrics.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@Anceska, I found the actual temps when I was looking at machines for both LG and Miele. Here they are:

LG (WM3885)
Extra hot 70 C (158)
Hot 50 C (122)
Warm 40 C (104)
Cold 25 C (77 F)

Miele W4842
Sanitize 70 C (158)
Hot 60 C (140)
Very warm 50 C (122)
Warm 40 C (104)
Cold 30 C (86)

You'll see the highest even the larger Miele will do is 70C. There used to be smaller units that were 220V that went higher. I don't believe Miele sells them in US or Canada anymore.

I have two small boys as well and have had not problem with my Miele W4842 getting their things clean. I sometimes select an extended cycle but everything usually comes out nice. Granted, my boys are not the roughest kids but they get stains.

What I can say for sure is that the LG will only guarantee the selected temp in the Sanitary cycle. Miele will guarantee the temp in all but "normal" cycle. This was something I thought was important. If you're going to have a heater to boost the temp it might as well make sure the wash stays at that temp.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@Anceska - Thanks. I'm feeling much better - really - because I could not imagine Europe washing everything in hot or warm water, but I read so many comments here by various contributors, that I got the idea that was the only way people did laundry across the pond. I need a good HOT wash for sheets & bedding for dust mite allergies, and washing kitchen towels & dishrags. I love that my HOT is now truly HOT in my new machine. :-)


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RE: Miele Cycles

With my Miele W4840, I ignore gentle or delicate instructions on plain, unornamented garments that don't appear especially fragile. The gentle cycle on our old Kenmore TL used regular agitation speed, and slow spin speed. If that was good enough for such garments, then a regular FL cycle ought to be ok too. The Miele's Delicate cycle is so gentle (because of the high water level) that it just can't be as effective as a regular cycle.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@livebetter, my LG seems to be calibrated to 30C (86-90F) for Warm setting. In order to get a 40C warm wash, I typically use a Hot setting without running off the cold water from the pipes. That gives me 95-100F fill that heats up to 105-110F. If I want true hot, I run off the cold water first in the sink and set the cycle time a bit longer to allow the heater to bring the water temp to 120-130F. Not a perfect solution but I really feel that some loads need a true warm wash and not just luke warm. In Europe, clothing labeled for warm wash calls for 40C wash temperature.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ izeve

In the US, warm wash also equates to 40C or 105F.


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RE: Miele Cycles

sshrivastava, that may be but not according to my washer ;-) and, as far as I can tell, not in any currently manufactured HE washer. They all seem to have the Warm setting calibrated in the 85-90F range. I know all you fortunate Miele owners have the option of selecting Very Warm but my washer does not have an option between Warm (86F) and Hot (120F?). As far as the clothing labels, all they say is Warm. It is very rare to have actual wash temp specified.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ izeve

I was referring to what is standard for the clothing industry, not what the majority of machines use. When you see "Warm" on a care label, it equates to a 40C/105F wash temp. This is why I love my Miele so much - its temperature selections coincide with the industry standards. See link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wash symbols


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RE: Miele Cycles

@izeve, the temps I listed were given to me directly by the manufacturer. I was specifically asking about the LG WM3885 but I can't see why all LGs wouldn't be the same?

Miele's cold is slightly warmer than LG too in keeping with clothing labels (as @sshrivastava pointed out). I also like that Miele has the extra setting at 60C.


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RE: Miele Cycles

sshrivastava, thanks. That is very helpful.

livebetter, my LG is WM2301. I have checked many times and measured the temperature inside the drum, and my Warm cycle is 85-90F. In fact the manual for my washer says that Warm rinses (there is an option for Warm Wash/Warm Rinse) are calibrated to 86F. But I will send an e-mail to LG to ask about this because I would really like an option to have 105F washes.


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RE: LG temps

livebetter, I meant to add also that the manual does not specify temperatures for other settings, only the Warm Rinse is specific. But I would expect that if the Warm Rinse is 86F then Warm Wash is also 86F? Although you never know... I can't even tell you how frustrating it is to read these less than helpful manuals. The manual for my washer seems to be written for 7 year olds. I would so appreciate a manual that includes cycle temperatures, cycle times and number of rinses! As much as I like my LG, I seriously think that my next washer will be a European one just for that reason ;-)


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RE: Miele Cycles

OK, so here is the response I got from LG:

Good Morning, _________________!

I appreciate you contacting LG Electronics, I understand your concern, and it will be my pleasure to do all that I can to assist you further.

Water Temperatures for your LG Front Load Washer are as follows:

Cold is 77 degrees Fahrenheit,

Warm is 104 degrees Fahrenheit, and

Hot is 122 degrees Fahrenheit.

The internal water heater only activates during the Sanitary Cycle to get the Temperature up to approximately 158 degrees Fahrenheit.

If the incoming water is colder than the specified temperature then check your Water valves that the Hot isn't on any higher than the Cold to remedy this.

I hope I've addressed your concerns fully. Other helpful information concerning your Washer's Operation and Maintenance is also available online at

http://www.lgknowledgebase.com/kb/ Just select Washers and look for the Article you need. LG is also accessible to you at www.lg.com

Should you have ANY further concerns or questions, then please don't hesitate to email us again or call LG toll free at 800-243-0000 anytime, day or night to speak with a Live Representative!

Thank you again for contacting LG Electronics, it was my pleasure to serve you, many thanks for being an LG Customer, be blessed, and have a wonderful day.

D. Stanley Jr.
Email Administrator, LGEAI
*******

Hah, I can tell you right now that the second part of the response about the heater engaging in Sanitary only is absolutely wrong. I have measured the temperature in my washes a number of times and the heater engages any time the HOT wash is selected and the water is below the set temp for that cycle.
So I really don't know what to think about them claiming that Warm is 104F because it most certainly is not in my washer. I guess I will keep on experimenting and measuring the temp, but as far as I can confirm it is 86-90F.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Are you accounting for heat loss as the machine and laundry absorb some of the incoming heat? That is the problem with machines that don't guarantee to maintain certain temps with on board heaters.

The Miele will engage the heater in all settings (except Normal) to ensure the temp they tell you for warm, hot, extra hot, sanitary ...

LG will likely have 104 as the incoming temp but the cold machine and laundry will quickly cool that down. Because the heater will not engage, it will stay cooler.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ izeve

It makes sense that your "warm" wash would be 86-90 if the heater is not engaging.


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LG temps

livebetter, you may be right about Warm, although from my experience the Warm cycles start at about 86-90F and stay at about the same temps until the end (20 or more minutes which leads me to believe that the heater is engaged to maintain the temp, otherwise the temp would go down). On Hot cycles, the heater definitely engages to raise the temp (initial fill around 100F or higher goes up as the time passes in the cycle, about 1F per minute, based on my observation). These are based on me measuring the temp of the water in the drum with an instant read thermometer. So the LG rep is definitely wrong about the heater engaging on Sanitary only. I will continue to experiment....


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RE: Miele Cycles

Miele is pretty f***ed up as well when it comes to understanding the features of their own machines. Is it so hard for manufacturers to be able to accurately quote the capabilities of their machines?


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Tricking your Miele (bwahahahaha)

Hey everyone,

I discovered a couple of tricks that you can use on your W4842 that will give you a profile wash and increase the standard number of rinses from 2 to 3, with a possible 4th rinse if you enable "Sensitive". This does NOT require messing around with the programming menu or anything like that.

These tips were confirmed to work in Custom cycle mode. Here we go...

To get a "profile" wash - After loading your washer, select CUSTOM w/ cold wash and desired spin speed. The machine will fill and soak the clothes with cold water, as selected. The machine's programming allows you to change the temperature selection up to about 5 minutes after the program has started. Start the cycle on Cold and then five minutes into the cycle change the temp to Warm, Very Warm, Hot or Sanitize - the heater will take you there. If selecting Hot or Sanitize, you may wish to also select Extended to give the heater enough time to get to the selected temperature.

To get 3 standard rinses - After loading your washer, select CUSTOM w/ desired temp and slow or medium spin speed. This will cause the program to default to three rinses. Right after your machine finishes the wash program and the display changes to "Spin", change your spin speed to high or max. You will now have three rinses with high or max intermediate spins. Although I have not confirmed this, you may possibly get a 4th rinse if you select Sensitive option up front as well. Selecting medium or slower spin speeds in Custom causes the third rinse to be added automatically.

The above items can be combined to get a profile wash and extra rinses.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Miele is pretty f***ed up as well when it comes to understanding the features of their own machines.
So true, so true. If Gaggenau made washers and dryers, my wife and I would likely switch in a minute. Not to say Gaggenau is any better with their own products, but at this point we're up for a change.

BTW, excellent information posted on cycles, thanks!


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4th rinse confirmed

I just ran another load and have confirmed that by following the above method and pressing Sensitive will give you four rinses with a spin between each. Sweet!


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RE: Miele Cycles

Thanks Sstava about the rinse cycle(s) information. The only problem, is that one must sit in the laundry room, or be very keen to hear when the rinse cycle is just beginning. As much as I want to try this, I must resist. If I allow my laundry OCD to no dictate when I change settings during a wash program, I think my family might have me committed.

So for me...I must select a program, Hit Start....and Leave the laundry room! LOL


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RE: Miele Cycles

Just saying... :)


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Miele W4842 water usage

I have some information on how much water the W4842 uses. While this is not a statistic you will find published anywhere by Miele, you can figure this out quite easily using Energy Star numbers. Multiplying the washer's DOE capacity (3.07 cuft) by it's Energy Star "water factor" (look up your washer at energystar.gov). In this case the W4842 has a water factor of 4.23. This simple calculation yields 13 gallons, presumably for the Normal cycle. Divide that by three fills in the Normal cycle and you get 4.3 gallons per fill. Of course this will vary with load size, etc., but these would be the numbers as tested by Energy Star.

This should help quantify the water usage for those who would like a ballpark starting point with detergent dosage. I'm constantly checking myself to ensure I'm not using too little or too much. Miele takes a wimpy approach to dosage recommendations, saying to use what is recommended by the detergent manufacturer. Asko, however, does take a stand and provides a lot more information in its user manuals. Here is the dosing chart for their current top-of-the-line 6 kg machine:

I will be focusing on soft water, which is what I have, but use the numbers that apply to your situation. An average of 1.25 TBSP is recommended by Asko for their 2.12 cuft DOE rated machine. The Miele W4842 has a DOE rating of 3.07 cuft, which is 45% larger. However, the Miele uses approximately 4 gallons per fill as rated by Energy Star versus about 2 gallons for the Asko. So while the Miele can handle 45% more laundry by drum volume, it uses twice as much water to do so.

The question then becomes, should you dose for laundry volume as advocated by the American Cleaning Institute or should you dose for the volume of water as is usually advocated here. Extrapolating Asko's recommendations, if you were to dose for volume of laundry, your dosage range in soft water for a W4842 should be 1.5-2 TBSP. If you dose for volume of water, thereby ensuring the detergent is at the same concentration as in the Asko, you would need to use approx. 2-3 TBSP. The mid-point appears to be just over 2 TBSP, which is probably a great starting point.

Detergent dosing can be confusing, so I like to share related information when I find it.


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Tide HE Manufacturer Recommendations

A quick followup... if we were to follow the guideline in Miele's user manual, we would be using the manufacturer's recommended dose. For Tide HE w/ Bleach liquid, that would be 3.5 TBSP to line 1 (medium loads) and 5 TBSP to line 2 (large loads). For Persil Megaperls, the manufacturer's recommended dose for "normal" soiling is just over 4 TBSP for a 5-6kg load in soft water, 6 TBSP for an 8 kg load comparable to the Miele.

Compared with Asko's recommendations, it appears that detergent manufacturers are generally recommending we use double. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle, but this is all good food for thought. Those who are having issues might be able to use this information to tune their detergent usage up or down to obtain better results.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Asko's chart is useless if they don't say what kind of detergent they had in mind. 2X? 3X? Regular powder (what brand)? Concentrated powder? The detergent they sell?


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RE: Miele Cycles

@suburbanmd - Good point. Every brand has their own dosing.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ suburbanmd

Asko should be applauded for taking a stand and providing some sort of guidelines. They should also be applauded for offering dosing instructions that are significantly lower than the detergent manufacturers recommend, which probably caught them heat from the detergent industry. The same instructions appeared in the manual of my 8 year old Asko, long before there were any 2x or 3x concentrated detergents.

Using your logic, detergent manufacturers' recommendations also are useless because they don't say what size load they had in mind, or the soiling level, or the hardness of your water, or even how much water is being used. Detergent manufacturers tend to recommend what works best for the majority of their customers. They have no idea what size or type of machine you are using, or how much you are washing.

Given the oversudsing issues people are experiencing, don't you think that Asko's recommendations - which may be conservative - are a better starting point than what's on the detergent box or bottle? I certainly do. I also think this is a good time to call out Miele for their complete lack of discussion regarding water hardness, detergent dosing, etc. At least Asko tries to educate its customer, but Miele takes the "dumb and dumber" approach.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Asko has been giving the exact same instructions over eight years, while detergents have evolved to become more concentrated? So a typical user today, with 3X liquid detergent, would be using an effective dose three times as large as a typical user eight years ago, with a regular liquid. That would please the sshrivastava who's been saying that too-low detergent dosing is the root cause of most washer ills. Today's sshrivastava, who's praising conservative dosing, wouldn't be so pleased by this development, would he?

If detergent packages recommend what works for the majority of their customers, they aren't categorically useless. And some if not most detergent instructions do recommend higher amounts for larger loads, hard water, heavily soiled loads.

As for the special issues associated with softened water: This isn't a naturally occurring condition, so maybe the water treatment companies should be responsible for educating their customers about it.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ suburbanmd

Please don't put words in my mouth. I am simply sharing this information for the benefit of those who don't know where to start in terms of detergent dosing. I was using Asko as an example of a manufacturer that provides its customers with a reasonable starting point and guideline. I don't know what this has to do with "today's sshrivastava". I don't understand why you are trying to make this personal. I'm only sharing information and trying to give solid recommendations in a confusing area.

While detergents have changed, Asko's recommendations still represent a good starting point. It is certainly better to start at this level and work your way up rather than to have a suds explosion in your first load. Suburbanmd, I don't see my world as black-and-white. Asko's recommendations are only a starting point, not an absolute. If you are taking it as a blanket recommendation, that's your own perception. Please don't project that onto me.

When I find useful information, I generally tend to share it. Take it for what you want.


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RE: Miele Cycles

I read part of your post as a reversal of your oft-stated opinion that too-low detergent dosing is the cause of many laundry and washing machine problems. Sorry if I misinterpreted it.

Asko's recommendations can mean drastically different things to different people, depending on the detergent they happen to be using. A better starting point would be based on the detergent manufacturer's recommendation, which is tailored to the detergent's ingredients and concentration. If one believes that all detergent labels recommend excessive dosages, then one could suggest "half the detergent maker's recommendation" as a starting point that's based on (not necessarily equal to) the detergent label instructions.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Question - does the W4842's internal heater function for the "Custom" cycle? I know it does not for the "Normal" cycle.
TIA


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RE: Miele Cycles

As far as I know, it works in all cycles except Normal. Normal was used for the energy star rating.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@livebetter - posting here to confirm that you are correct. Later today I ran a "Custom" wash with HOT water, and the door was very very warm when the cycle ended. Our water heater is currently set to 120 degrees F, so the internal heater definitely kicked in.


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RE: Miele Cycles

@ suburbanmd

You make valid points, I think there are flaws in either methodology. My purpose was just to share what another manufacturer recommends - which is boldly different than most - and to provide another possible starting point for folks who may be confused about dosing, or who are experiencing sudsing issues. Perhaps I should have stated that part more clearly.

@ Cavimum

Yes, the internal heater works in Custom. In fact, I wash most of my clothing using Custom cycles. I initially set the temperature to COLD, then after the load has tumbled and soaked for 5 minutes I change the temp to Very Warm or Hot. This engages the heater and raises the temperature from cold to whatever I set, getting a nice profile wash in the process. If I raise the temp to Very Warm or Hot, I will also engage the Extended option to provide enough time to heat the water to the target temperature and to ensure my clothes receive a full 60 minutes (minimum) in the main wash phase.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Yesterday, I tried out our W4842's "Sanitize" cycle on a load of whites. For the sake of science, yesterday's lab experiment included a Libman mop head and some of the dog's plush toys (toys that had been washed many times in Hot, over the years in the old TL washer) tossed in. Sanitize cycle is quite impressive. The dog toys have not looked this clean since they were brand new. Seriously. The mop head looks great, too.


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RE: Miele Cycles

Yes, Sanitize does a fantastic job of cleaning and whitening whites. I wondered why Miele limited the Sanitize cycle to 158F, but after some research I discovered that elastic waistbands and threads start to disintegrate at temperatures of 160F and higher. Elastic items can be safely washed on Sanitize in the Miele W4842.


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