Samsung FL 520 will.

Just don't expect hot on Normal, Bedding, or Permapress. Even though you are allowed to choose HOT on Normal, you won't get hot water. It will get PLENTY hot on any other cycles that allows you to choose HOT such as Sanitary, Heavy Duty, etc. It took me a LONG time to figure out that the ATC isn't funky in all cycles--just some!!

The Stain Away cycle starts out COLD (even when u choose HOT), but over TIME, it will get hot due to the unboard heater. that is a desirable feature for removing certain stains--you want cold water in the beginning--same as for Pre-Wash.

Here's a response I received from Whirlpool/Maytag regarding their target wash temps:

The min/max temperatures would be as follows:
Sanitary/Super Hot (Duet HT) - 153 degrees
Whitest Whites/Heavy Duty Hot 127 degrees
Normal Hot - 122 degrees
Warm - 104 degrees
Cold - 77 degrees
All temps are plus or minus 10 degrees

oh, as far as temps are concerned--I've got cycles that provide well above 130 degrees. Sanitary, Heavy Duty (my favorite cycle, seeing as the Normal cycle is wimpy and won't ever give a hot wash--at least on my sample of the 520). I once checked the temp on Sanitary and was, IIRC, around 142.

My heater is nearby and is set to provide in excess of 145 degrees.

mcduffy, not all specs are matched by real-world numbers. the only way to know is to use a thermometer.

asolo, the Miele washer hoses are long enough to reach water supply and drain on the left. The dryer vent isn't as easy, but if you can leave room behind the washer and dryer you might be able to make it work.

Asolo -

When you say upgrading. I'm confused as to whether you're upgrading your OWN seven year old Duet OR your mom's machine? If you're speaking of your own machine, what's the reason you're upgrading? Mine is seven years old as well, and nothing's wrong with it.

Sorry for confusion. My Duet is fine....just like new. Marvelous machine, so far. (If I could be assured of buying another one, I would.....but those days are past.) It's mom's location I'm considering upgrading.

@dave1812....I've been interested in Samsung since their introduction of VRT. Working from memory, here, but aren't you the one who has their water heater set at 150 and changed their plumbing around to get the heat desired from your otherwise-impressive machine? Are things different, now? (Sorry if I've got that wrong.)

The Samsungs I'm researching have "steam" and "foam" features, also, that don't appeal to me....although I could, perhaps, be persuaded....but not by the Samsung promotional materials I've seen. They seem silly to me. The other features are appealing, though. I've read postings by a number of Samsung owners who give it high praise.

@suburbanmd....I've presented my dryer-left/washer-right concerns to local Miele dealer hoping to learn of known-by-them solution to make the concern go away. Phone salesperson friendly and understanding but didn't mess with it personally. Promised feedback from above-them engineer-type. I like the machine's specs but it seems to me they've really missed out on a VAST segment of the American market by their non-changeable dryer-left/washer-right configuration. If that can be sensibly overcome, Meile appears to be best candidate I'm currently aware of. However, this single concern would likely be deal-breaker if cannot be easily/sensibly overcome. Phone person's flippant (I thought) suggestion of modifying my plumbing and vent configuration structurally in order to accommodate the machine met with instant rejection from me.

@mfduffy....very interested in your feedback on this. The numbers you provided aren't that far away from the specs of my 2005 machine...and not too far away from actual results posted at whirlpool trainee's referenced site. However, can't help but have noticed tremendous number of very disappointed Duet reviewers posting here and there. That impression tempered by similar situation in 2005, however, compared with my own experience with my own (so far) exemplary machine. Especially interesting feedback at CR's site. The Duet is their #1 rated machine. However, their own consumer reviews -- the largest number of any machine they've reviewed -- really beat them up. Average consumer reviewer rating two stars out of five....which is a very unusual mis-match between CR rating and reported consumer experience.

asolo, I posted this in another thread but am reposting here so that you have this option as well in this thread. You should consider LG. I've had my mine for about a year and a half now and it has worked really well. My front loading LG does a good heated HOT wash on its Baby Wear cycle (stupid name for a cycle but it's the equivalent of Heavy Duty on other machines). That cycle has a heated wash and an extra rinse. You can select HOT or Extra HOT temperature for the wash and the run time is 1:40 to 1:52 minutes depending on temp selection. It also has a sanitary cycle which I use at least once a week for towels and sheets. When Hot temp is selected in other cycles the heater will turn on but it usually will not have sufficient time to heat the water to the true hot temperature (I consider that 120F minimum) because of a short cycle time. I typically use Perm Press cycle with Hot temp selected when I want a true Warm wash, and Baby Wear with Hot temp selected when I want a true Hot wash.

Also, similar to what dave1812 describes with respect to his Samsung, using the Stain Cycle will give you a profile wash where the washer starts with Cold or Warm (as selected) and brings it up to Hot.

My LG is a basic model - it doesn't have steam or other fancy features but it has a heater that seems to be doing its job :-)

asolo,i've been looking at Frigidaire FAFW3921NW Affinity Series 27" Front Load Washer: integral water heater, add a garment, quick washer, 2012 energy efficient star rating, Silent Design, and lower price. Still, I don't know how "hot" hot is-maybe whirlpool trainee will chime in.

Also LG WM2350HWC: auto water level, auto temp adjust, direct drive motor. States SF-certified Sanitary Cycle heats water up to 158F to remove the toughest stains and bacteria, separate cold wash cycle for savings.

Izeve, would you give your LG model number? How acceptable is the machine's vibration? thanks.

"....steam or other fancy features..."

I could be wrong in my opinion but I've never responded to "steam" or "foam" features. I just want predictable temperatures in the cycles. I want at least a couple of cycles that deliver an actual-hot wash. I regard "actual hot" as about 125F.

My resentment of mfgr obfuscation of this simple, basic information about water temps. is really peaking right now since I'm actually shopping.

Sparklingwater, my machine is the now discontinued WM2301. WM2350 that is currently available seems most similar and the closest thing to it. The vibration level is very acceptable - much better than the Whirlpool Duet Sport washer I had before.

I wrote to Chris Polk at Electrolux (also on this forum) about target water temps and here's what Electrolux Front Loader machines aim for.

Below is our basic chart that is also found in most Owner's Manuals and/or Technical Spec Sheets for each front load washer we currently produce. These temperatures can vary depending on location, water connection with the home and overall usage.

Automatic Temperature Control Specifications

Auto Temp Sanitary Cycle..................152 +/- 7 F
Auto Temp HOT/COLD settings............120 +/- 7 F
Auto Temp WARM/WARM
and WARM /COLD settings .................90 +/- 7 F
Auto Temp COLD/COLD settings ........... 65 +/- 7 F

Did notice one interesting circumstance.....

Comparing CR's top-rated Duet FL model against the only non-HE TL still in production, Speed Queen, which they rate poorly.

SQ is the only non-HE toploader still in production. Pretty much exactly like the old Maytag I'm considering replacing -- would essentially be in-kind replacement. 100% old-tech. No "energy star" rating for this one. Mechanical switches and no ATC. Shorter cycles than HE machines and, essentially, nothing to learn. Best warranty of any machine of any type currently available. Water-temps are, like the Maytag, line-cold, llne-hot, and mix. That's it. (What happened to my fixation on temperature?)

However, the discrepancy between CR rating and reviews from owners there and elsewhere I find very interesting.

CR doesn't rate the SQ highly but the average of 51 reviews from owners/users at their own site gives it 4 1/2 out of five stars....and many of them rake CR over the coals about the lower rating....which is highly unusual.

The greatest number of reviewers is for CR's top-rated Whirlpool Duet FL.....but the 87 actual owner/user reviews of this latest model average only 2 out of 5....which is also highly unusual. Many of them also rake CR over the coals for the high rating given for what they consider to be a disappointing machine.

Similar review results for both machines seen on other sites. Trouble in-mind for me.

My own 7-year-old German-made Duet has been and remains exemplary but I find this obvious discrepancy among reviewers of their current offering very interesting. Perhaps I should adjust my thinking about what direction to go.

Hm, would your mother consider moving to Europe? ;-)

Finding a washer that heats its own water to hot temps seems to be a b!tch, really. There are a few things to look out for.

Some features seem to boost water temps, such as Steam or Stain Treat - anything that'll extend the main wash, basically.
NSF Allergen Removal cycles are supposed to heat up to 130F.

Some of the better Frigidaire and the WaveTouch washers have an Allergy option that can be added to several cycles. LG's Allergene cycle isn't NSF certified, as far as I know. WhirTag has one Allergy cycle, just as the middle-of-the-line FrigiLuxes.

Miele, of course has a wide selection of temperatures but she would have to live with the reversed set-up. One suggestion would be to unload the washer into a laundry basket, slide it over to the dryer and load again. That way, the doors don't get in the way. I do this all the time.

As for Electrolux temps: these, I copied from an Electrolux service manual. Don't know how accurate they are. A member of another laundry forum has the Frigidaire, which is similar to the IQ Touch and his hot washes peaked at 110F... This service manual is a little older: it's missing the Allergy cycle/option temp.

Temperature Setting
Sanitize 152°F
Hot 131°F
Eco Hot 113°F
Warm 84°F
Eco Warm 81°F
Warm Rinse 75°F
Cold 59°F

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: NSF certified washers (Sanitizing and/or Allergen Removal))

Asolo -

True about the reviews. But, remember back in 2005, OUR current machines had some horrible reviews along with some good ones. In the past few years some (machines like ours) have been showing up with broken spiders, mold, all those things. I hate reading reviews and trying to get any idea out of what I should to because I start to G L A Z E over reading them. If I were shopping for a new washer now, I have ZERO clue what I'd choose. I'd be a nervous wreck thinking I'd make the wrong choice and be unhappy about it.

FYI....mom's coming on 100. Caregivers and I do the laundry....previously unmentioned consideration. Simplicity -- short learning-curve -- is, in fact, some portion of the consideration.

Trying to keep it simple......can see that I'm failing.

Asolo, as I've been looking at Speed Queen also, I can tell you their energy tier rating is very low. I'm very drawn to their simplicity, durability and warranty but not so much to their (possible) noise and with the stackable, possible vibration. There is not much modification on their residential line from their commercial line which is why I pause over the above. I gave this all much thought and now have moved more to engaging the green movement with high energy star and newer options as long as I don't overspend. That's why I mentioned midline Frigidaire (Electrolux) with internal heater: the warranty is one year and the price such that if I got use for five/six years and great water/electrical savings, I would feel it an even draw. The Speed Queens are top dollar to me and you spend on water and electricity to boot. But they last.

Whirl_pool Trainee: thanks for your suggestions. I am trying to find the newest information on frigidaire FAFW3921NW which got the 2012 best energy save. From their specs: Watts @ 120 Volts: 1,000 Watts

Amps @ 120 Volts: 10 Amps . Could this limit the heating ability of the internal heater? NO reviews out there as this is so new? Anyone have a Frigidaire washer/dryer?

Here is a link that might be useful: who makes what washer?

We're all assuming that if you buy a Miele W4XXX now, it'll work like the ones already owned by forum members here. I'd like to think so, but we really don't know, do we?

From what I've read, the Queens will give you a full hot fill on the hot setting. A way of getting an extra-hot wash is to (besides turning up the water heater) start the washer on a hot wash, let it fill and tumble for a while - maybe sort your laundry during that time - then set it to drain and load the clothes once the drain cycle is done. This pre-heats the drum and tub.

SQs are also very easy to use unlike

Here is a link that might be useful: some other washers.

@ Whirlpool trainee.....

You are a forum-treasure.

SparklingWater said: I've been looking at Speed Queen also, I can tell you their energy tier rating is very low.

Are you looking at the SQ front loaders? The AFN50F is Energy Star rated. SQ says that model uses 13.9 gallons of water per cycle on average and 184 kWh of electricity per year, resulting in a $20/year cost for electric water heater and $12/year for gas water heater.

Their top loading machines aren't Energy Star rated, but they only use 400 kWh of electricity for an average yearly cost of $43 (electric water heater) or $28 (gas).

I had a brief discussion with Speed Queen itself on this matter. As the Energy Star ratings requirements ramp up each year (less and less), SQ has come down in tiers. I recall talking about FL ATE50F. Note SQ says Energy Star Qualified but not which tier?

This in no way implies they are not a good product! We're talking personal choices here. I am still considering the ATE50F. Just that where I live, water and electricity costs and local taxes associated with them have skyrocketed since 2007.

ENERGY STAR� Qualified
"Estimated operating cost based on eight wash loads a week and a 2007
national average electricity cost of 10.65 cents per kWh and natural gas
cost of $1.218 per therm."
For more information, visit www.ftc.gov/appliances

One thing I was impressed with during my brief research into SQ......

Submitted question on their web-site...received fast response within a day with invitation to call national sales manager directly, if I wished, providing his number. Guy answered his own phone; welcoming, friendly, responsive, knowledgeable; no nonsense at all. Quite a difference from the responses to telephone enquiries I've become otherwise accustomed to. Obtaining information from other vendors of even basic information has been quite a chore.

Don't know what I'm going to do purchase-wise, yet, but I couldn't help but be impressed with this handling of my enquiry. Believe I will explore further.

I did some research on this issue of the Duets getting bad consumer ratings back when I was looking to buy. The Duets were the first FL machines that were purchased in large numbers by "regular" people. Most of them had never had a FL before. As we have seen in this forum many folks are unable or unwilling to adjust their habits and have trouble as a result. Combine that with the large relative numbers of Duets sold over the years and the ratings make sense. Unhappy (or clueless) users complain more on the web than happy, smart users.

I am happy and not totally clueless and love my machines. Just did 4 loads yesterday and everything came out of the washer spotless and very dry - I am still surprised how fast things dry in the dryer.

@ oregpsnow...

Mostly, I agree......but how does that square with all the positive reviews of the SQ on all the various sites? Unless they're shills, it doesn't fit. I've followed CR for years. This is an unusual discrepancy.

You know the SQ Top Load washers do a spin drain instead of a neutral drain. I always HATED neutral drains in a TL

Not familiar with this terminology. May I ask you to clarify?

A top loader spin drain is the washer beginning the spin and operating the drain pump simultaneously. The initial spin speed is rather slow (the tub is still full of water!) and it picks up speed as the water drains. It tops out at full spin speed about the same time the water is completely drained and continues for the rest of the spin cycle duration. It has the effect of leaving the clothes spread out more vertically on the tub during the spin. The spray rinse is more effective (if it's the first spin) and the final spin (after the deep rinse) is more effective at extracting water.

During a neutral drain, the washer shifts into neutral (no tub motion) and allows the water to drain from a standstill, then begins the spinning.

If you don't have kids or other safety concerns and you like to watch these sorts of things, the SQ top loaders have an easy way to defeat the lid safety switch using a small bungee cord hooked up in the back.

speed queen spin draining. Better than a non spin drain in my opinion

Here is a link that might be useful: SQ Spin Drain

Went machine shopping yesterday to actually eyeball available units.

Was dismayed to find that the salespeople I spoke with are as ignorant as they were the last time I shopped seven years ago. Much more accurate information available here from you folks and certainly much more direct responses.

My favorite anecdote from yesterday was the behavior of one sales manager who was called over by lower-level salesperson to answer my temperature question. The machine in question at that moment was an old-tech, non-ATC top loader with typical cold/warm/hot dial. (I was looking for competitors to the Speed Queen TL. I was directed to this machine upon mentioning that.) I had asked what the mix-ratio for warm was -- if he knew. He went away for about a minute and came back with a small piece of paper. On it he had written the hot/warm/cold temperatures +/- 10 degrees for this machine....and then brusquely walked off. These alleged temperatures were provided without his having any idea what my own line temperatures are and concerning a machine with no ATC, no thermostat, and no heater. In other words, neither he nor the mfgr could possibly have known what those temperatures would actually be for this machine at my location -- or at anyone else's. I was surprised by such foolishness from a supposedly experienced senior person but elected not to follow up. I thanked the salesperson for allowing me to examine the machines and left.

One place I won't be buying from.

asolo, while getting specs is great, don't lend too much credence to those numbers. I've learned the hard way that none of the temps listed for the samsung (and that includes TWO sets of the two main modules in the wf520) are actually correct. Listed temps are higher than in reality.

oops. I meant to be less confusing. I should have written,"i've learned the hard way that none of the temps listed for the Samsung WF520 match up with my machine which as now been used by me with two sets of modules--the original logic module and control panel module." actual temps are lower than what the specs call for.

i still didn't get it right! the original logic and control modules, along with brand new modules. there still is no hot water wash for the Normal cycle. I imagine that the sanitary cycle will also be about 10 degrees lower than specs, given that the Normal cycle problem persists.

You appear not to have understood, Dave. Did you read this part?: ".....concerning a machine with no ATC, no thermostat, and no heater. In other words, neither he nor the mfgr could possibly have known what those temperatures would actually be for this machine at my location -- or at anyone else's."

I was talking about an old-tech TL that is entirely dependent upon existing supply-line temperatures. For such machines, it is quite impossible to specify wash temperatures at all, let alone +/- something. One can select "cold" which is 100% cold line; "hot" which is 100% hot line; or "warm" which mixes the two. That's it. There isn't anything else. There is no measuring of temperatures in any way. That's how mom's old Maytag is, now. That machine's "warm" setting opens both lines and provides 50/50 mixing providing whatever temperature comes out of that. Other such machines mix via different ratios. My question was simply "...what is the mix-ratio on warm?". The answer provided by the sales manager was unresponsive, his information was wrong, and he was rude.

The situation with your Samsung or any machine with a heater and/or ATC unrelated to what I was talking about.....or attempting to talk about.

Asolo;
I have reported my woes with the Samsung WF337 here on occasion. Mainly lack of enough water and low temps. I now use the sanitary cycle for white clothes because it is hot enough. It takes a couple of hours even though I set my tank to 150 degrees. But I have learned to live with it. I also use Heavy duty dirt level and extra wash and rinse for all washes to get a longert wash cycle to allow clothes to get wet with the small amout of water it uses. Bottom Line: I can like it if it will only last at least 10 years. Much too soon to predict that.

asolo, don't lose sleep over any perceived misunderstanding(s) you think that I might be laboring under.

But I do appreciate you pointing them out. I think I'll fret about them for at least the next three of four days.

oh, wait! I really don't care!

Yes, you've pretty much shown everyone that you don't much care whether you understand anything or not.

For heaven's sake, Dave, I was just trying to clarify something that obviously wasn't clear. I don't think I earned your dump.

It's ok if you are deluded.

Keep it up, Dave. You're doing a terrific job of solidifying your reputation.

I think that somewhere out there lies a bridge missing its troll.

You two clowns need to get a room.

dave 1812 slays another thread.

I'm done, then. Thanks to all others who responded. I appreciate your feedback.

I just don't get where the customer is almost always getting blamed for being unhappy with front loader performance in this country. Or the new HE "almost no water" top loaders. Or the typical top loaders that dumb down water temps and select water levels for you. Give me a break...it's always the customer and never a flawed design...really? Look at the physics of a front loader with our insane laws combined. Then there's the "new" HE top load machines. Laws of physics will tell you gravity won't allow the water to properly get to the top where it needs to be. I don't care what these companies try to cliam. Many of the people working at the appliance stores where these were sold and who have purchased these, have dumped them and gone back to an old fashioned top load. At least this is what they are telling me. I'd take a front loader any day over those. At least they tumble the laundry into the water...what little water there is.

Doing laundry is basically a no brainer chore. I don't buy the number of complaints in the USA are all due to customer error. There are stupid people, for sure, but not that many.Doing laundry is not rocket science. The front load machines available in Europe don't seem to have the number of complaints we have here.

I have had front loaders since 1997. I'm not impressed. I've purchased and absolutely am thrilled with my new Speed Queen top loader. It gets my clothes clean and fresh with minimal wash times because it actually lets me choose hot water if I want it, and water level. Extra rinse too, if needed. It fills with enough water to actually clean the clothes for a change, and actually rinses them completely.Sorry, but it does take water to clean clothes. Maybe the key is to wear clothing more than once, not try to clean them in minimal water. It spins my towels out as well as my Duet did, and washes as large a load. Does it use more water.? Yes..well, sort of....but I used just as much (or more) washing and rinsing multiple times in my Duet. It sometimes took all day to get a load clean. I NEVER have stinky towels anymore and garden dirt gets out of the knees of my jeans...the first time. With no additives or spray pretreatments. Overall, I am using less water and less energy.Is this a fancy or sexy machine? No, but I don't need sexy or fancy appliances. I also don't need an appliance to do my thinking for me. I'm intelligent enough, thank you.

That said, I like being able to wash a king size quilt at home. With the agitator in the top load, I risk quilt damage...it's just a tad too big. Smaller quilts move freely. So now I need a front loader too. Only to wash big quilts.

We've been looking at new front load washers and are not impressed. At all. We've decided to put new bearings, a new boot, and rebuild the pump in my old Duet. It's German made and much better than the new ones out there. My husband will do the work and we will essentially have a new machine for a few hundred bucks.

Contrary to what Whirlpool says, the bearings can be replaced without replacing the whole drum. One virtue of my old Duet is it did clean quilts well. It gets them wet throughout and they do come out clean, fresh, and well rinsed. However, this cycle actually uses some water.

Therafter, I am saving up for a commercial Speed Queen front loader.

Sad to say, but most of the washers available in the USA are going downhill fast, and I don't see it getting much better. I only hope we don't have to go back to a wringer washer to get clean clothes from a realiable machine in the future.

I know there are many on this forum who are happy with how clean their clothes get and do not understand those of us who are not thrilled with the extreme water restricted machines. Well, maybe it's lifestyle. Maybe their clothes don't really get dirty. Ours do. We hike. We fish. We garden. We fall in mud puddles. We camp in the mountains. We canoe. We maintain our home ourselves. We got rid of our TV and do not miss it one bit. So we need something that is a washing machine. Not a soap, sray, spin, machine.

It's time that the consumers out there stop being the scapegoats of all the blame. The fact is for the most part this country is now filled with lots of shoddy products.

Hopefully Wall Street will not succeed in destroying Speed Queen so I can get that dream commercial front loader some day (their residential front loaders aren't quite large enough for a king quilt)....because I won't spend a dime on one of the newer ones commonbly available today.

Asolo, your mom's coming on 100? Sounds like you've got some great genes there. :)

This is not an argument, just my experience here: My HE toploader (Maytag Bravos) has been an outstanding washing machine. It does everything I need it to do, extremely well. I love the huge capacity; it's great for washing everything from huge loads of clothes to sleeping bags and king-size comforters.

I really appreciate the washer's water heater, which gives me true hot water and VERY hot water in the Sanitize cycle. I also like using it to get true warm water.

I bought my first washer in 1973 (a great GE with FilterFlo and Minibasket), have owned several washers since then, but my Bravos is far and away the best I've owned. The amount of water it uses is definitely sufficient to clean our laundry well.

The Bulky cycle (used for such things as comforters) does use more water than other cycles, as does the Handwash cycle. I get great results regardless of what cycle I use.