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Stiff towels, I now know why!

Posted by mc58 (My Page) on
Tue, May 27, 08 at 16:05

Hi all,

I now know the reason that I had stiff towels, all the suggestions that had been given to me didnt work.

But as you all know I have had such a suds problem. As I was folding my towels today I noticed that they are so much softer than they was a 2 months ago.

I havent used soap in the towels for almost 2 months, I have washed them on the sanatize cycle. I still see some suds but I almost have them soap free.

I also had bypassed the water softner.

So between the HE soaps that I have been using and the soft water and the lack of water, my towels were just full of soap!

I am doing a load of casuals now and I put 1/2 tbl like I have been and there were no suds!

I believe that has been the problem all along.

I should be recieving Charlies soap anyday! I cant wait. I just hope that I can turn back on the water softner.

Now if I can just get the tangling-braiding issue resolved I would be HAPPY!

Marie


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

That's interesting. I noticed stiff towels when I first got a frontloader. I was using HE soap and half the recommended amount. I think someone here said maybe too much soap. I have cut back more and my towels are better too. I have a few towels in my guest bathroom that are rarely used and haven't been washed many times that are still stiff. I may just wash them on hot without soap and see if the problem is that they're still full of soap.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I'm simply amazed when I hear people using 1/2 the amount of a top loader in a front loader. It doesn't make sense to me. If, for example, a front loader uses 5 gallons and a top loader uses 25 gallons, to me it would seem that 1/2 would be about 2 and 1/2 times too much. Of course it'll vary from machine to machine but it still doesn't add up for me.

And softened water should require less detergent than hard water. So that complicates things more.

Glad you're finding solutions that please you.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Cynic

I did say 1/2 a tablespoon, not half the amount recommended.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Posted by cynic: > I'm simply amazed when I hear people using 1/2 the amount of a top loader in a front loader.

Most HE detergents are designed for front loaders and the recommended amount is for front loaders.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I think that the manufacturers of the detergent have a monetary incentive to try and get you to use extra, I'd slowly work my way backwards on detergent until I found how much my laundry required to get clean. For my laundry, I use a T of powdered detergent.. the amount recommended by the detergent manufacturer is a 1/4 c. scoop.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

ronniroo

I agree and I will do that. I am waiting for Charlies soap as soon as it gets here I will first do an empty load and use a little bit, like I have been and see what happens.I hope it works.

Thank you


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I am so happy things are improving for you.

As to what cynic said, I can see where they are coming from. I was reading up on HE machines and found that HE machines vary as to water usage. Depending on make and model, the water usage could be anywhere from 26% to 60% less than a regular toploader. That is quite a gap from machine to machine.

If the water amount can vary that much, it would be safe to theorize that not all HE detergents would work the same from machine to machine at just half the dosage.

Just a thought anyway.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Yes I think I will start off with 1/2 TBL , if I dont see suds than I will increase the amount.

I cant even imagine using what they recommend. I never have & I never will.

I also need to find out the amount to use with the soft water machine? I will be doing alot of testing. I still have it shut down until I get all the soap out of the towels.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Mc58...
Where did you hear that suds were indicative of correct amt of soap? Many soaps clean extremely well w/out one having to "see" suds. Personally, I use persil powder in my LG WM0642HW front loader. I use approx 1/2 tsp (yes that is TEASPOON) for medium load and about 3/4 to 1 tsp for a large load. I DO have a water softener so that can make a little bit of difference. My clothes come out clean and fresh. I would be wary of doing laundry in a front loader and seeing suds... It would concern me that they may not all be rinsed out and also that the soap may build up inside the washer. Give it a shot sometime (use less detergent) and see what your results are.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!1

Additionally, one of the ways that front loaders work to clean laundry is to have the laundry "fall" into a pool of water in the bottom of the tub. This forces water thru the fabric and helps in the overall cleaning. If you have suds in the bottom of your washer, they will "buffer" the falling laundry and actually reduce how much water is forced thru the material.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

blazinlo

Thank you,

I have had other issues too and have posted alot on them.

I also have a water softner, I think that is some of the problem.

I went as much as 1/8 TBL and there were still too much suds, that was with a different load than the towels. I am still trying to get the soap out of the towels.

I have bypassed my water softner until I get them soap free.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Bypassing the water softener will simply replace the detergent residue in your clothes with mineral residue. Try soaking your clothes in a strong vinegar solution, that should remove whatever residue is in your clothing.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

vinegar can also be added to the rinse cycle ;)


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Thanks, I have tried the vinegar 1/4 cup 4 different times and it didnt help, they still have suds.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Mc58,

perhaps the soap is in the washer (coated on the OUTSIDE drum?) Have you done and "empty" load w/ no detergent to see if you still notice suds? I've heard that certain liquid detergents can build up on the outer tub (you wont notice by looking at the inner tub where you put your laundry). If that's the case, it may take a few loads of super hot, non-detergent empty cycles to clear it out.

Try switching to a powdered detergent -- persil? I use regular persil for lights and the Persil Megaperls for colors.

I also put vinegar in my bleach dispenser and my softener dispenser. On most top loads the bleach dispenser does not operate until the last 3 or 5 mins of wash cycle. the vinegar will help to lower the PH of your water which will help to reduce suds and allow detergent to rinse out more easily.


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blazinlo

blazinlo,

Thanks for the info.

There is no buildup, it was doing this with a brand new washer, when I wash casuals there is hardly any suds. Its with the towels and when I do "whites with bleach", I was using HE bleach and I found out here that the HE does make more suds, so I am back to the old reg bleach.

I am suppose to get Charlies soap "powder" today.

I hope that helps.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Any updates on your Charlie's experience? I had a good load using the recommended 1 TBL dose, and I also have a whole house softener. I will try 1/2 TBL and see if it cleans as well. If it does, why not use half the amount and get double the number of washes? :)


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I have done 3 loads with CS and I cant really tell yet. I am still trying to get the soap out of the towels.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

You know, if you're using vinegar in the rinse that will cause sudsing. I hope you're not mistaking vinegar suds for soap suds... ?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

sshrivastava,

I only used the vinegar 3 different times, and have'nt since because I didn't notice a difference.

I believe that it is from using 1/2 TBL HE soap with water softner. I reset the softner for every 5 days, it had been set for every 3. I have'nt turned it back on yet, till I get all the suds out. I hope that works.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Mc58,
Setting your softener to 5 days as opposed to 3 will accomplish the following....
You will have really soft water for approx the first 3 days of the cycle and then hard water for other two days (give or take a few days on either side depending on usage). Unless you specifically schedule your laundry to run on the last 2 days of the cycle, you won't be accomplishing your goal.. For further information on water softeners you should check out the plumbing forurm (see below)

Here is a link that might be useful: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/plumbing


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

MC58's issue is a mystery to me, I know this has been an ongoing problem for quite some time. I have a whole house softener and otherwise uninteresting water chemistry. I don't have any suds problems at all. In fact, using 1 TBL of Charlie's Soap yielded no suds at all except for five or six bubbles that I noticed on the porthole after the water temp hit 160F.

Sometimes your water chemistry will cause what looks like suds after agitation. Do you have a carbon filter in your water softener? If so, has it been replaced on a regular basis? If you have any adsorptive filter on your water line, usually carbon, it will adsorb chemicals from your water until it has reached capacity. Once that happens, those chemicals (nitrates, chlorines, etc.) will leach back into the water. A high nitrate content can cause suds in otherwise normal looking water.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I wonder if there is something else in the water besides softness that contributes to increasing detergent strength and suds? Ss - you mentioned Nitrate - can you say more about this and do you know how high is HIGH?

MC58 are you on city or town water or do you have a well?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I dont know if the water softner has a filter? I had the company come out when I first noticed the problem and they said that everything looked good!

We are on city water and it is very hard water, That is why we have a water softner. I really miss it, cant wait to get rid of the suds, I am doing another load of jeans and shirts right now with 1 TBL Charlies soap. Im not seeing alot of suds. Yet!


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

MC58,

What kind of body soap do you use? Some soaps can leave a lot of residue on the skin (particularly bar soaps) and then be deposited on the towels when you dry off.

Could that be the culprit?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

I had a reunion and we ended up staying longer than a day.

I use a bath & shower gel, my husband uses Zest. He is very sensative to soap so I know he stays and rinses off real good, I do too.

I am washing some towels on sanitize with 1/2 TBL Charlies soap. I checked to see if there was alot of suds and there was not. Im thinking its probably the right amount for CS.

The last load of towels I washed I used CS and they are still stiff, so I am going to turn the softner back on and see how that works.

I think that maybe I should reset the softner to every 3 days like they had it set? I had mentioned that I reset for every 5 but someone mentioned that I would run out of soft water.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Mc,

Yup, you'd run out of soft water. A softener does not work by softening a "certain amount" (ie: if you have 18 grains hardness and only want 10, you cant set a softener to do that).. Rather they soften as much as they can until they reach capacity (which apparently your softener company thinks you will hit on day 4 based on usage, number of people in household, etc)... If you don't want 100% softwater in your laundry, I would suggest the following...
Use a "mix" of softwater and hardwater (run a pipe from your supply PRIOR to softener and "mix" it w/ softened water as it enters the washing machine -- hopefully it is near your water supply/softener). Again, I would check the gardenweb plumbing site (see below). I know there are examples of exactly this scenario out there. You may even be able to set your softener to 4 days then as you would be using less softened water (thereby saving salt/KCL). :-)

Lastly -- regarding your husbands soap sensitivity -- Though softened water feels "slippery", it actually rinses soap off of the body much better than hard water. With your husband's sensitivity, you may want to make sure you are showering w/ as soft of water as you can. You may also want to look into homemade/handcrafted body soaps as you can find all-natural brands out there. You can also find basic handcrafted soaps that have few ingredients which may be better for your husbands sensitivity. Handcrafted soaps retain the natural glycerin (this is very good for your skin -- provided it is not the ingredient to which your husband is sensitive) produced in the soapmaking process (whereas, in commercial soaps, a portion the glycerin is skimmed off to be used in other products which results in less glycerin in the final product. Feel free to research handcrafted/homemade soaps. However, I've researched this thoroughly as I own a handcrafted soap business. People who switchover swear by it. But that's neither here nor there... Give the mix of hard/soft water into your washer a shot. Use valves on both the hard and soft as they mix into your washer so you can adjust the hardness till you find the mix which works best for you.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/plumbing


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

mc58... as an fyi... I don't know about others but when I switched to Charlies, I had easily a month were I was ready to toss the stuff due to hard, stiff, scratchy towels... hang in there... it took me almost all the way through the first bag to get the towels like they are now... guests just asked what I used to get them so soft! I was floored!


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Blazinlo

Thats funny you mentioned natural soaps because he has been wanting and searching for some.

Thanks for the info on the soft water I will check on the other forum.

Plumbly,

I am glad to hear that CS will help after so long, because the towels are stiff again after only washing 2 loads, I thought I had all the soap out of them because they were finally starting to feel soft.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Mc58,

Use link below to get search results (qty = 4) of mixing hard w/ soft water for laundry/shower, etc. It seems that most people suggest running a 1/4 inch bypass line around softener and then using a valve to adjust the mix.
Hope this helps.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://ths.gardenweb.com/search/nph-ind.cgi?term=mixing+hard+and+soft&forum=plumbing&forum_name=Plumbing


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Blazinlo

Thank you I will check it out.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Depending on the quality of the water, it can take upwards of 8 - 10 washes for Charlie's to remove old detergent buildup. That stuff just doesn't want to come off! Now, if you've got mineral deposits (calcium carbonate and the like), that can make them scratchy and Charlie's itself won't pull that out. A phosphoric acid from TSP or CLR (brand name) or even cheap vinegar will help or completely break down those minerals and then they can be washed away. If you have hard water, you might want to consider adding some sort of softener to the towel/underwear loads to keep the minerals from getting back on the clothes. Give us a call if you have any questions.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

So if folks are experiencing stiff or rough clothes it may be due to old detergent build up in them, and the clothes will soften as the detergent gets removed?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Jerrod, I think that's exactly what he said! :P


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Blazinlo
Do you have a link for your natural soap business? My DH has eczema and he read about the healing properties of natural lye soap. I was skeptical until I began to read up on it. I had visions of the harsh stuff of oldtimer's stories that would "take your skin off." We ordered some off of ebay and it actually seems to be helping.
Thanks, Carol


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

charliesoap,

Thank you,
I do have a water softner that I just turned back on after having it off for almost a month to see if that would help, that and using Charlies for a couple weeks, I have noticed a difference. Im finally getting
softer towels.

I have been a little nervous about using softner because the mildew issue I had in my last Frigidaire FL.

Now if I could get the Tangle Braiding issues solved I would be HAPPY!

Thanks again


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

ilovetn,

This forum has strict rules on not advertising. So, I have to be careful.. The only reason I mentioned I had that business was so I could lend credibility on my ability to chat about that subject.

FYI - Usernames in this forum are set up to be "clicked upon" to get further information about said user (location, years on forum, email addr, etc).

Mc58, I would be interested in more details on your mildew issue. I had not heard softener could cause that and am now concerned (though, so far as I can tell, there is no mildew in my LG WM0642HW). I'm kind of in catch 22 cause I have iron in my water which softener removes and if I were to use hardwater, all my whites would be yellow.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I had a frigidaire that I always used fabric softner in the rinse cycle, I ended up with the mold mildew and it was bad, I read on here that its caused by fabric softners and not keeping the door open, but the fs has oil in it and it sticks to the walls of the washer and it is very hard to get it out. I also took the soap dispenser out to clean and noticed in the back of the compartment there was alot of black mold, I couldnt reach it to clean it out "wasnt easy". So if you do have a fl and use fs make sure that you leave the soap door pulled out to dry as with the front door, and make sure that you are always washing your machine with bleach,at least once a month.

That is the main reason I got rid of my frigidaire.

search stinky clothes or similar wording and I hope that somewhere you can find them talk about it, I know from experience because the black mold that was all over the dispenser and compartment from the fs.

I dont know if adding directly to the clothes at rinse cycle would help? I was told to add to cup of water first, that is in my wp manual.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

blazinlo. . .sorry about my gaffe! I'm pretty new at posting. I guess I should go back and read all the rules. Thanks for the info and heads up.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Mc58,
I have heard the same thing re: Fabric softeners. I now use a dryer sheet. only thing that goes in my FS compartment now is vinegar. ;-) I have friend who has neptune(?) -- solid door (can't see laundry while it's working) but she always puts recommended amt of soap & softener in wash. She has no idea if she's overdoing her detergent or FS. I often wonder what the outer tub of her washer looks like -- I've seen horror pictures from others.

ilovtn,
no worries. I've been there myself on occasion.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I no longer use a fabric softener. Instead I just do another 20 minute rinse cycle to get all the detergent out of the laundry since despite the water softener I have in my home, my hard water is not perfect water. My clothes comes out so soft and I do not itch from soap residue like I did with my old top loading machine and my current front loader if I put in too much detergent and do not rinse the clothes enough.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Hi

Do any of you live in Orange County, CA? I think we have rocks in our water. We have a whole house softener as well and today my husband is trying a different salt. We just got a new washer and dryer-Miele. Also went crazy trying to decide. Should have waited. Miele isn't as versitile as my old Maytag FL which I loved. And you can't ask for the extra rinse to run with the load. You have to come back and punch the button for Quick Rinse. Anyway I am experiencing the same suds problem now which seems to be everyone's problem with the new FLs. Since I could not see my old Maytag working because of the solid door I was not able to see if there was suds but my clothes were softer than now. I have been using the pair for a week now and I think one problem is the small amount of water the washer is using to rinse. I am using Forever New powder soap and keep reducing the amount but still see suds. I actually rinsed my husband's Levi jeans 6 times on Quick Rinse and I still saw a lot of suds. I have also washed the clothes without soap so I guess they must be full of the Tide HE soap. My guess is that the water level is a big culprit in this problem. Any thoughts on that?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I know Tide can be hard to rinse away. I had trouble in my TL and when I tried Tide He in my FL - same issue.

Is Forever New an HE designed detergent?

Seems like all of the new FL are using less and less water so that they can meet the 2008 enery Star requirements.

There is also a message some where on this forum that explains how to increase the water level in the rinses.


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I am having a soap problem again

Yes me again!

I have had the problem with the soap in the towels that I have been trying to get all the soap out using no soap in the towels for 2 months. Well I turned my water softner back on and I noticed that the 3 times I had used the CS my towels are stiff again and full of soap. I spent all day Fri. washing one load of 6 towels with no soap, I washed in sanatize with xtra rinse and 10 xs on delicate with xtra rinses that does a "little more" water plus 2 more rinses. I started washing at 9:00am and didnt stop till 11:30pm. On the last 2 washes I by passed my water softner again for the cold water and adjusted the valve to add some hard water. I was so sick of doing those towels and Im going to wear them out before I get the soap out.

I thought I wanted to see if it was the soft water, what a mistake. I do believe it is.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

If you have a standard salt-based ion-exchange water softener, it should not have this kind of impact on your laundry. I have a whole house softener, front load washer (Asko), and am currently using CS.

I have done several loads, with most there isn't a single suds bubble to be seen during the wash. HOWEVER, by the end of the rinse cycle I will begin to see a layer of bubbles on top of the water that could be mistaken for suds. These aren't detergent suds, they are a result of agitating the water.

Fill a jar half full of softened water, cover, then agitate. Do you see a layer of bubbles on top of the water that quickly dissipate? This is typical behavior for softened water, but it does not mean that there is any detergent in the water itself.

Since using CS, some laundry is super soft while other pieces are scratchy -- especially towels. I don't believe this has anything to do with the use of soft or hard water, but is a byproduct of CS stripping previous residue from the fabrics. I had a load of towels come out very soft, but another set of towels did not. The only difference was the towels in the load, otherwise all the other conditions were essentially the same.

I never did believe the claims of previous residue causing sudsing issues, but I sure am a believer now! I washed an old pet blanket yesterday that I know hadn't been washed in months. Previously the blanket had only been washed in Tide HE, Persil, or whatever product I happened to be using. I threw that sucker in the laundry with only 1 TBL of CS and I had suds to the top of the porthole! I have never seen so many suds, and whenever I previously washed this blanked (before CS) I never had suds either. So this definitely is an example of CS removing old residue, causing sudsing issues. Note that when this blanket was washed previously with other detergents, I also used soft water from my softener and had no sudsing issues.

It would be easier for us to help and offer more useful suggestions if you could post some photos of what you're talking about, or perhaps even a video (does your digital camera or cell phone take videos?). This would definitely give us something to look at.


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Pictures I took of the towels that I washed Fri.

Here they are, it looks like soap suds to me.

Like I said I washed them for 2 + months with out soap and the water softner bypassed, and they were starting to feel clean and soap free, until I used CS for 3 washes on them.

I do have a phone that does video but I have no idea how to upload from phone to computer.

10th wash


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I forgot to mention again that this wash is without any soap added since the last wash 2 days prior, and then I had used 1 TBL CS, actually I think I used 1/2 TBL because I didnt want suds again, but Im not sure.

On this load I decided to use no soap because they were starting to feel stiff again. I did use 1/2 cup vinegar in the first sanatize rinse.

I would have thought that using no soap for over 2 months and bypassing water softner it would have got the soap out. They did start to feel softer and I didnt see suds like this, in the last week or so before I got CS, so I started to use CS.

I also noticed that when the wash is stuck to the tub, they are soapy!

Also when I had my Frigidaire FL on the rinse cycle it would put water in from the fins that sprayed the clothes as it was tumbling and draining this washer does not do that, it puts water in but it doesnt hit the clothes because the clothes are stuck on and around the back of the drum.


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RE: suds

mc58,
Great pic!
This is what I went thru when I had a new Maytag Neptune FL! This is what the rinse cycle looked like, but worse! I didn't use ANY detergent either trying to figure things out. The unit was a return to Lowe's but apparently not serviced before being resold. Had several techs out and they said nothing was wrong. I was bummed, ended up taking it back....
Sorry you are experiencing this! Hope YOU find a solution soon!


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

bookert

Thanks,

This is a replacement washer, but for a bad tangle issue that is still happening too.

What did you get for your replacement?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Yup that looks like soap suds to me! I am totally at a loss to explain why this may be happening with you. I don't know what could be so radically different between our water chemistries, since I also have a softener and use CS without any sudsing at all.

You've probably already thought of this, but is it possible that you may have some detergent buildup inside your machine that is causing this? Have you tried running an empty load to see if the suds are present? I'm sure this question has been asked, but I don't remember. That might explain why you have suds despite the large number of rinses.


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RE: suds

mc58,
When my prior machine was having the suds problems, I tried everything I could think of to fake the machine out. Now I KNEW the suds issue wasn't from MY over or misuse of detergents as I had already learned what works best with a much lower amt. of water etc..
I was angry at the techs for NOT listening to me as they both witnessed and had me tell them what the issue was. They didn't know what to do and didn't care to dive in to find out! That is the reason I took it back, I knew I would not get a resolution to my problem.
I know there was something wrong! I thought it could have been the pump not working correctly in both the wash and rinse cycles as there were LOTS of suds present. Not sure, but it wasn't normal.
BTW, no other machine before or after that unit has exhibited that problem. I've even tested clothing periodically by rinsing it in the sink.
Boy, I hope someone can help you as I KNOW how frustrating this can be!!!
I ended up with the Oasis without the agitator after all was said and done.(I also paid the big bucks and bought a 5 yr. warranty) I wanted a F&P, but needed the larger drum to wash queen and king comforters and bedding. The new model hadn't come out yet. Am I happy with the choice, yes, I can honestly say I am. I also have a GE Harmony dryer and love it! The Harmony washer tub wasn't big enough for my king items, otherwise I had thought about buying the matching washer.

Hang in there!!


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

sshrivastava,

This is a brand new machine and I see no suds on clean wash cycle.
There are hardly any suds in the casuals with a TBL CS.But they get severely tangled and braided.

bookert,

You said you returned your washer, where did you buy it? and how long did you have it?


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RE: suds

mc58,
Hmmm... you stated you didn't notice suds in the clean wash cycle. Although my machine didn't have that cycle, there were no visible suds in my culprit machine when running an empty load either! I do wish you could have seen the suds issue I had!! BAD! My family thought I was nuts and they remind me of the seemingly crazy attitude I had back then! It consumed me! ugh... glad that's over 4 sure!

I got used to the tangling with the Duet I had. I still liked it though. Try using the medium spin speed and just see if that helps at all.
Approx. how many jeans do you wash and do you add smaller items, like shirts? I've learned to wash jeans alone for the most part and that goes for other loads too. Towels alone, shirts alone or with other smaller items. Of course the Oasis is not a FL, but the tangling is minimal since I've done that.
Oh, the suds master Neptune I had was purchased from Lowe's.
I had it for about a month by the time two techs came out and I scheduled the pick-up to return it.
I ended up at the laundry mat and a relatives house to do laundry the suds were so bad! The rinse cycle water had even more suds, so yes, I went crazy! =) (I can laugh now, but it wasn't funny then!!!)


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

bookert

I know what you mean, my husband nicknamed me bubbles! He is so sick of hearing about it. He wants to go buy another washer.

I cant get use to the tangling it is really bad they are like braided together in a ball, you try to pull one thing out and the whole load is stuck together. I have had back & neck surgery and its not good for me to have to stand there & untangle everything.

The suds issue I hadnt noticed till the tech came out and saw how much suds were in it and told me that is way to many suds, he had to check out the soaps etc, to make sure I was doing everything right, he also took the front off & checked the pump, and other stuff. I didnt have a clue that it was that bad, because I didnt sit there and watch it, but as it does rinse cycle it seems that more soap had been added, the more you wash the same thing as I did the other day with the towels it gets more sudsy then the first wash.

I was told by the company to make sure to add different sizes of items in each load, but for jeans I have tried just 6 pair jeans alone, that didnt work, so I do mix of 5 jeans & 5-6 shirts & socks. Same result with everything I try. And this washer is suppose to wash 16 pair of jeans, that is 11 mens & 5 smaller pair in one load, that is what the picture shows in their ads, this thing cant handle 5-6.

When I do towels they too get tangled up and dont always want to balance out, and I have to actually open the washer and seperate them so it can spin.

I still need to call and have them come out and look at it, I had app. but we had electrical problems, then reunions & now family from Alabama are here for 2 weeks and we will be doing alot of camping, so I wont be getting it checked for awhile.

When I called Whirlpool and told them the new washer was doing the same thing, they said that I had to go thru the bs all over again, last time I had 7 calls & 5 different guys out here. But this time I think I want to email them some pictures and demand a another replacement or my money back.

I bought my washer from Lowes too, but I didnt call and complain for 5 months because I thought I was just doing something wrong, but after trying everything I could think of I had had enough. They told me I should have called within the 7 days return policy.

I should have taken a different washer for replacement, but I had no clue what to get, they thought it was just a bad washer, but is it possible I just got another bad washer? I dought it.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I notice suds in my washer too, and i use Persil powder -- 1 to 2 tablespoons -- each time. It is particularly apparent in the delicate cycle where the water level if higher. Btw, i have a Whirlpool Duet.

I did an experiment to see how many rinses it would take before i saw no suds, and it took an extra rinse cycle, in addition to a rinse cycle with extra rinse until the water cleared.

I am aware of the energy standards, but the recent washers are simply too water miserly. I loved my Miele from 10 years ago.

It seems to me if we could figure out how to increase the water level in the wash and rinse cycles, many of these issues would go away. I'm still trying to figure out a safe way to do this.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Cleo,
I use Persil powder for my lighter colors and my 1 Tablespoon per wash does not result in excessive suds. I wonder if maybe 2 TBS is more than you really need. As stated in other subjects on this forum, suds are not indicative of cleaning ability (meaning that you don't have to have suds to have clean laundry). Detergent is meant to break surface tension of water. You will know if you have enough detergent in your wash by dipping your fingers in the wash water and feeling if it is "slippery". I would suggest cutting your amount of detergent in half (if not even more) and start from there and work your way back up to a point where clothes are clean and suds (if any) are minimal. As for persil Megaperls for color (if you happen to use that as well), I find that a rounded 1/2 TEASPOON is more than enough.
My caveat -- detergent usage should be based on soil (type and amount), chemistry of water, etc.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

mc58,

Sorry about your tangling issues. That must be maddening.

I don't remember the machine you have, but on the kenmore/whirlpool models, the normal/casual cycle tumbles slightly slower than the heavy duty/whitest whites cycles. Have you tried washing those clothes that tangle on one of those cycles? You can always reduce the soil level (wash time) and temp to more closely resemble the normal/casual cycle.

Regarding the soap and towels, I wonder if some of the suds are from soap that gets on the towels and wash clothes from normal use. My experience with soft water was that it is difficult to rinse soap off one's body in the shower, and perhaps some of that soap is being deposited on the towels when drying off. Also, wash cloths may have some residual soap in them too. My thought is that through normal use, the towels may be acquiring some soap residue, thus the suds you see in your washing machine.

Joe
P.S. I have read to get rid of suds in a dishwasher, such as when someone uses normal dish detergent by accident, a tablespoon or two of vegetable oil will help reduce the suds. I wonder if perhaps the suds in your washer need some oil or dirt to work on to help balance it out?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Joe,
I believe it is a misnomer that softwater doesn't rinse soap off your body as well as hard water does. On the contrary, the exact opposite is true (see link below).

Also, a better way to dispell excess suds (in dishwasher or Washing machine) is to use white vinegar. It lowers the PH of the water which, in turn, helps to prevent suds from forming.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.culliganhays.com/softeners-slippery.html


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RE: returning machine

mc58,
I can relate with you when you stated YOU thought it was something YOU did wrong. I went nuts thinking, "am I nuts!" I know how to figure out if I need to use less detergent etc...
For me I had to try out different combo's that resulted in less tangling when I had the FL.
As someone noted, try using a lesser spin cycle to see if that helps.
The Duet (base unit) I had seemed to do the best at spinning out larger loads than the previous FL's I had.

Is there any way you can take a load to a neighbor friend or laundry mat to see if that eliminates the suds and then start over using your machine?
You might also consider going to the Lowe's you purchased from and speak to the appliance mgr. and explain your dilemma. He or she may agree to swap your unit w/ a different brand once more to keep your business. Show them proof if you have to.

Forgive me, but have you tried the vinegar test? This thread is so lengthy that it takes time to read all of the posts.

Now, just a thought, but if Whirlpool agrees to swap your unit for a He TL what about that? I think it's the Cabrio. I have the Kenmore equivalent and although some don't like them, I do. It would also be easier on your neck and back IMO.

Hope you get this issue resolved very soon. Enjoy camping and spending time with your family! Have some good laughs it will make you feel better!!!

Blessings


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I still can't help but think if it's just towels that are doing this that something is getting ON the towels in between washes. Do you wash with a facial soap that is left on washcloths or hand towels that are washed with the bath towels? What about kitchen wash cloths or towels? Could they have dish soap on them? Do you wipe up soap spills or something like that with your towels?

Have you tried buying a few new towels and using them exclusively to see if there's a difference?

Also, I know towel manufacturers put chemicals on towels to make the feel soft in the store, could that be what's bubbling up and refusing to come off? Maybe look into a few organic cotton towels to try.

Sorry you're going through this. How frustrating!


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Towels are usually 100% cotton. MC58 What fabrics are in your other loads - are these mostly cotton also?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

blazinlo,

I do not agree with the Culligan website. Here is some information not supplied by a water softener company. :-)

Why Is It Harder to Rinse off Soap with Soft Water?

With soft water, why can't we rinse off all the soap?

Joe


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Joe,
Touche' :-)
guess there are as many sites that claim better rinsing on both sides of the coin. (see more below).

Guess we'll hope for a chemistry professor to read our forum and send us in the right direction... Dont you just love the internet? Seems to contradict itself all over ;-)

Lee
p.s. I'd include other links but I can't figure out how to post more than one.

Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.miuraz.co.jp/product/soft/pdf/070930_en.pdf


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I will mention...

Lee,

Well, we are in the information age!

I find when showering with bar soap and soft water, I feel more rinsed if I rinse out my washcloth, and then scrub my skin with the "soapless" washcloth under the running water. I have no studies to back that up, but I do feel more thoroughly rinsed. :-)

Just to add a little something else to the mix, I believe that most liquid body washes are actually detergents, not soap. My suggestion that some sort of soap (or detergent) may be getting onto the towels is because after a couple of month of washing without adding laundry detergent would have removed all detergent if nothing additional was added.

Joe


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Blazinlo,

Thanks for the suggestions. I can certainly reduce the amount of detergent. I use both Persil Sensitive and Megaperls and have been experimenting with less amounts. (I don't associate suds with cleaning ability.) Clothes (dirty white socks, for example) just don't seem to get as clean with less even with hot water.

I miss the days of my old Miele with the higher water level, i guess. It cleaned better than my Duet, and i never had an issue with detergent not rinsing out of clothes.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

cleo26,

Have you ever watched your rinse cycle with no soap added to the load?
I agree with trying to figure out how to get more water in at least the rinse cycle. These new energy efficient washers are worse than the old washers, when it takes me all day to do 1 load of 6 towels and no soap added to try to get rid of the suds is not right. If you find out how to get more water in let me know PLEASE! When I get someone out here I am going to ask them if they can do something about the level of water.
Do you have soft water?

Joe,

I have a Whirlpool Duet 9200 this is a replacement as of May 6th.
I have tried everything possible for both tangling & suds issues, I havent found out what works yet for either. I thought I had all the soap out of the towels of washing with no soap for over 2 months with the softner shut down. But I started to use Charlies soap and now the suds came back. Its a nightmare!!!
Its not from anything other than using soap in the washer, I know that there is not enough water to get the soap out. When washing anything that Ive used in sink or to wash face I rinse out well.
Like I have mentioned before, I did not have this problem with my old FL. Im not doing anything different then I did with it. ???
I have used vinegar I dont think I would try using oil. But thank you for the info.

Bookert

I have tried all cycles and different loads, you can actually watch the clothes getting tangled as it is washing, even with it tumbling the opposite direction it doesnt untangle them?
I am going to the laundymat tomorrow I will do towels there and see what happens.
I will try to talk to Lowes again but they always tell me the manager isnt in. And Whirlpool is the one that replaced the last one for the Tangle issue, they all said that they have never seen or heard of anything like that happening.
I have read bad stuff about the cabrio? I would have went with another machine but they thought it was just a bad machine and I didnt know about the TL.
Thank you for your blessing I need it :) we will have fun, Thank you.

trinityklm,

Thank you for your info.
I know it isnt the towels because my old washer didnt do this and I have the same towels. And it isnt from other stuff getting on the towels or washcloths I make sure I rinse them out real good.
Yes it is very frustrating! Cause I cant figure it out. I do feel like Im going crazy, I have never had such a rediculous problem as this my whole life. Well except trying to get rid of Boxelder bugs. :( You think you have got rid of them than surprize were back.

jerrod6

I think everything I have is cotton, but the casual clothes are thinner and they dont have the suds problem but they do get tangled & braided, the jeans I usually have to do an extra rinse, plus rinse & spin cycle, and they get really tangled up too.

I am doing my towels again right now on sanitize, I tried to go see if there was any suds and the door wouldnt unlock on the rinse cycle, I wanted to push back the towels to check the suds, so I cancelled it and started it on delicate cycle to get more water, also last Fri. when I did so many washes I had bypassed the soft water cold line, and than opened the valve alittle for hard water to be added to the hot line on the last and 10th wash. I do not see any suds as it is now on the rinse cycle again, but it didnt put anymore water than the other cycles do, so I cant really see the suds and the door will still not unlock. Sometimes it will put water up to the door or up the door a couple inches like in the picture I posted when I do delicate cycle, I cant see any water or suds.

Could it be that I use a cheap salt or pellets? does anyone know?
I have had my water softner since 2001 so I dont know if that could be the problem.

I DONT KNOW !!!!

I am so sorry for repeating myself and I know that you are probably sick of reading about this stupid rediculous problem of mine.

I do thank everyone of you for all your help and to those that understand what I have been going through.

I will be leaving to go camping Fri for 5 days so I will check in then.

My husband says he might just go buy another washer, NOOOOO! I am already having nightmares :(

Thanks again.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I have an idea that might work. Take a set of "sudsy" towels and rinse them in bypassed (hard) water until there are no suds. Dry them as usual. Then re-enable your water softener and rinse those same (now clean and suds-free) towels again, this time using the soft water. If you see suds, you know it isn't detergent build-up causing the suds. It could be your water chemistry, or something in your softener.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Thanks,
I did wash them without soap and bypassed soft water for 2 + months and I think I got all the soap out, they was feeling softer and didnt stick to the drum, then I got the Charlies soap and washed I think 3 times and they started to feel stiff again, but I didnt see alot of suds and they were sticking to the drum, so I turned back on the softner about 2 weeks ago, so between the softner and soap they dont want to rinse.

So I think its the softner and not enough water.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Excuse my ignorance of water softeners...but... can't you somehow 'adjust' the level of softening???? Myabe not quite so soft???


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

mc58,

I haven't tried watching the rinse cycle with no soap. Perhaps, i'll try it with some towels this weekend and report back.

I think my water is soft.

Some time back i posted a link in which a person had increased his washer's water level, but it seemed very complicated. That's why i'm looking for a simple way. Either that or hiring someone to alter the washer's settings.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

plumbly22

I Just did that last Fri after washing the load over & over 11 times total without soap I finally bypassed the cold line and then opened the valve to add hard to the warm.

cleo26

I read his website about how he had done it and yes very complicated but smart. I will let you know what the tech says if they can add more water, maybe they can do something.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Plumbly,
softeners cannot be adjusted to a "desired" softness. The water which comes from them is either soft (0 grains/gal (some people consider 3 grains or less as soft)) or, as capacity finally diminishes (ie: you don't have softener set to recharge often enough), hard. There is no way to make a softener "let thru" a specific amount of hard water. Best way to accomplish what some are trying to do here would be to run a small bypass line prior to softener over to washer (include a mixing valve so you can adjust hard/soft mixture). Something to consider for those who decide to go this route..... some water contains iron which, in small amounts, can be removed by a softener. If you run a bypass line and you have iron in your water, you risk dingy/yellow clothing.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

You want to do as closely controlled an experiment as possible to rule out any variables. Take a set of towels that you KNOW are clean, or take a previously washed set of towels and rinse them in HARD water until there are no suds.

DO NOT USE DETERGENT ON THESE TOWELS. Take the towels which are now clean and RE-WASH them WITHOUT ANY DETERGENT using just soft water from your softener. Do you see suds?

If yes, then the issue has nothing to do with detergent buildup.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

mc58,

I have read your posts these last few weeks and I feel for you. Who has the time and energy to devote to figuring out a machine that is supposed to make your life simpler?

I had the Whirlpool CabrioHE - and it was a nightmare that lasted for 6 long months.
I was finally able trade it for the Cabrio with agitator. What a difference!
I feel bad that I am not doing my part to be enviro friendly but I do feel good now that I have a standard top loader and my clothes are clean and wrinkle free. I will make an effort in other areas to save water ie. not watering the lawn.

I felt like your husband - I was going to ditch the Cabrio He - cut my losses and buy a standard TL. Luckily the appliance shop I bought it from contacted Whirlpool for us and we were finally allowed to trade it in for the new washer.

I hope you get some type of resolution for this problem as I know it can seem ridiculous!

Take care.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

If your washer is doing more than 2 rinses, try adding 1 tablespoon or less, of vinegar into the second rinse.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I don't think 1 TBL of vinegar is going to do any good, it's just too little. Vinegar has an acidity of only 10-15%, and dissolving 1 TBL in the typical 2-3 gallon fill of a front loader isn't going to make any difference. I would suggest at least 1/4-1/3 cup in the fabric softener compartment, or 1 TBL of citric acid during the 1st or 2nd rinse.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

mc85,

I think I may have a piece of the puzzle regarding your sudsing issue. I was just watching a load during the rinse cycle. I set my machine to a high water level, like yours, and saw the same exact suds in my rinse! This was with clothing that had been washed multiple times in CS.

I decided to investigate further. I tapped some of the rinse water -- no slippery or soapy feel. I then took an empty jar, filled it half full with softened tap water, covered and shook vigorously. Guess what? I got a layer of bubbles that looked like suds, quickly dissipating.

Adding 1/4 cup of white vinegar to the rinse quickly suppressed the "suds". Well, vinegar dissolves calcium carbonate and acidifies water. Since there is no calcium carbonate in softened water, it must be the acidifying action that is causing an increase in the water's surface tension. This makes sense, since softened water turns CACO3 (calcium carbonate) to NACO3 (sodium carbonate). Sodium carbonate is washing soda, or soda ash. In essence, all softened water has minute amounts of washing soda in it, which turns your water alkaline and can cause a reduction in the surface tension of the water. This would allow, from agitation, the formation of bubbles or suds.

I don't think it's at all detergent related. I believe it is the water.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

sshrivastava...

I've been watching this post since it started and I think what you say makes total sense.

Where I live, the water is soft so there has always been bubbles in our water, it's considered normal so never really thought about.

With people actually watching what a washer is doing (via the window in a front load washer), you notice things like bubbles.

I think you solved the bubble trouble...what a geniuses.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I just got home from camping to feed my cat. I have read all your suggestions.

I filled a jar with plain hot softner water and shook it, yes there was suds "a little bit" but they quickly desolved, not like the suds that are in the washer "they dont leave" I know that because I will stop it to take pictures and have left it off for about 10 min. before turning back on and there are still suds. Also I've taken a clean wash cloth and dipped it in a clear glass bowl of hard water and swished it around and it is soapy and filmy looking. Also when I purchased the water softner they gave me a little kit to test the water, it looks like maybe a soap that I put 1 drop in with 1/2 cont. of water and shake vigurously and the suds stay, if I dont add the stuff to it there are no suds, that is how I test to see if I need to add salt.

sshrivasava
When I get back from camping again. I will try again to do the experiment. I have done the 1/4 cup vinegar, no difference.


lulundave

I know exactly what you mean, to spend so much money on a washer that is suppose to do alot of clothes in 1 load, that cant handle 1/3 of that amount is frustrating and rediculous! FALSE ADVERTISMENT

I will be going back to Lowes where I purchased it "with pictures" and talk to the manager, hopefully they will do something, because its not just the suds issue, the tangle issue is harder for me then to wash 1 load 11 times, and what an energy saver it is.! NOT!

Thanks to all of you again, I will check back and do the experiment on Thur.

Thanks


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

We have a Whirlpool Top Loader that we really like. It was one of the first "High Efficiency" TL machines, it only uses 29 gallons of water. It's still running great.
A couple of years ago we purchased a "laundry spinner". It spins the clothes at over 2000 RPMS to dry them faster. We noticed that when we did the laundry we would have clear and clean rinse water in the washing machine, but when the same clothes were put in the laundry spinner we'd get suds in the water exiting the unit. This went on for a few months. Now we don't see any suds when we spin our clothes, and the towels seem to be much more fluffier.
The spinner reduces towel drying to 20 minutes from about 45, shirts are dry in 15 minutes. So we think we are saving energy with the dryer.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

How about saving even more on the drying and use solar power - your towels will smell great as well. Most people in the UK dry laundry outside, weather permitting, it's not difficult, quicker than you think and gives you a little light exercise in the fresh air as well. Plus of course you save $$$ - not just in electrity but buy making your clothes etc last longer - where do you think lint comes from. No risk of shrinking in the dryer either.

I use am umbrella type dryer on the patio (reflects the heat) which folds up & is covered when not in use. And no I have never had bird droppings etc etc on my laundry, despite having lots of trees.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Curious about sshrivastavas's experiment...

I tried the same thing; 1/2 mason jar capped and shaken vigorously. Used hard water from irrigation lines (about 7 grains), softened tap water (zero grains; I use salt), and RO water (zero grains). Same result with all: zero bubbles....instantly flat upon cessation of agitation.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I tried it also. I put water in a glass jar and shook it hard and long. Bubbles were there but dissipated as soon as the agitation stopped. The bubbles looked like air bubbles. According to my water department my water moves between 4 and 13 grains during the year. It is currently at 13.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I'm at 30-35 grains.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Are you feeding your washer hard or softened water? So if you sample rinse water that looks sudsy into a glass jar and you don't shake it and the water is cloudy and suds remain...is this from the detergent?

Sshrivastava - you also mentioned nitrate - what impact does this have?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

My rinse water is clean as a whistle, and the suds I see in the rinse are clearly from agitation -- they are larger in size, and dissipate very quickly. My washer is fed softened ZERO hardness water. Regardless of these 'agitation suds', my clothes are softer than ever!

My understanding is that high nitrate/nitrite content can cause suds formation. You often will see suds forming around an open sewer connection, or sometimes along the beach.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Funny thing,

I saw a gentleman in the laundry room at an apartment building using HE detergent in a top loading washer--should I have told him to use five times the amount recommended on the container? He was talking to his friend about his new detergent.

I already know who to expect a response from for this question.

Brad


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Brad

I will be glad when the person you are expecting to respond does so.


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Who is this person? Did I miss something?


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RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Perhaps Brad is referring to the fact that Charlies is not specifically sold as an HE detergent.

Brad?


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mc58: You Are Not Alone

mc58: You sound like me. My husband was ready to take the Miele washer and dryer and put them on the street with manure in them with a sign saying that is all they were good for.

My (VERY abbreviated history so you can see that there are other crazies such as yourself):

Came to this website after old-fashioned TL washing machine was diagnosed dead and became convinced that Miele was the answer to my prayers for a long-lasting, great washing machine for hard water. Bought the just-out Miele W1213 -- and will suggest I was lead astray by Miele rep in Miele store about the "extra" rinses because I knew we had hard water and was enamored with idea of programming four extra rinses. Had installed by authorized rep. First washed everything without any soap but there was no residue in clothing. (I'd been using vinegar rinses and borax concoctions because of hard water.) Then used Persil at prescribed amounts re: Miele. Hubby & I were in doctor's office with dermatitis within 3 weeks. And so it began.

Eventually reduced Persil Sensitive to 1t for small load, 2t for medium, and 3t for large load in order to clean (Hubby in construction), but requiring many additional run-throughs (THERE IS NO SEPARATE RINSE CYCLE ON THE MIELE W1213!!!!!!!!!!) without detergent but with vinegar to get the soap to acceptable levels.

I did absolutely everything everyone at Miele suggested and everyone here suggested. Just to mention a few: Had the water tested four times, by two different labs (This is how crazy I was: I tracked down the water quality guy for the state of Massachusetts at home and got him to recommend THE laboratory to use for testing because people suggested my first lab might not have done things correctly.). I tested for everything under the sun because every time I'd get the results people would then suggest that it had to be X that was the issue, X being something that hadn't been tested. $1,500 later, there is absolutely nothing unusual about our water except 12 grains of hardness. I purchased Miele washer cleaner (two boxes) and "cleaned" my washer twice because Miele was claiming my current problem was caused by my following their Persil instructions originally. I bought two hundred dollars of new towels to do the no-hidden-imbedded-stealth detergent test. I did all the Miele correct-installation tests (height of hoses, et cetera). I did the rinse water into the bucket test. Had the well water pressure calibrated. I had Hubby move the rocking chair into the laundry room (I am disabled.) and recorded exactly what the machine did -- for those who offered the programming/chip error/lemon theories. We had the rep out to test this, try that, reprogram water levels. I went through soaps, detergents (including Charlie's), and home-made recipes. I spent one-and-one-half years devoted to figuring out what I was doing wrong because everyone assured me their Miele was to die for, and I believed them.

I was the first on my block/town/city/county/state/country/hemisphere to buy the Miele W1213 so I had to wait until fellow W1213 owners started to show up on this site. When two did, I contacted them privately and asked them to run a test: Wash a load of clothes on the normal cycle then, without adding anything, run the cycle through on warm/delicate (cycle with greatest amount of water so soap is visible) and check for soap after ten minutes of agitation in wash cycle. Both were surprised to see soap suds! And both had been happy with their machines. It was so good to get corroboration. I was not the only one -- though it had sure seemed like it 'til then.

Still crazy, I started to research Miele abroad, on an English and Australian website. I bought a short subscription to Which?, the British equivalent to Consumer Reports. They do a better, more thorough job of testing washing machines, they do a rinse test on their machines, and test many Mieles. (I've written, e-mailed, posted and telephoned CR with requests to add rinsing to their test program, but gave up two years ago when it was clear they wouldn't listen. But I'm gonna bet that as more "water-efficient" machines become an issue they will smarten up.) What I found was that though most Miele machines were near the top of the ratings (though not the highest rated), some Miele machines did not fare well in the testing; they were found to rinse poorly or treat clothes roughly. That was very helpful to break my mindset that Mieles walked on water. BUT what helped the most was seeing that water usage varied quite a bit by machine AND the European Miele machines used more water than mine AND the machine designed for people with chemical sensitivities used much more water. Ah. The Miele Australian site listed the amount of water in their machine and it was more than here. The light dawned.

I think I was unfortunate in that I bought one of the first super-water-"efficient" machines and we have hard water. Getting soap out of our clothes had always been a challenge with the TL, but one I'd handled with additives to soften the water. The greatly reduced water usage in my new machine has made it much more difficult to both clean clothes and rinse them. Here's a quote from Tide (which I don't use cause I understand it is difficult to rinse out): "Since HE washers use less water to clean, the water is dirtier. 2X Ultra Tide HE has special dirt capturing ingredients to help suspend dirt and dyes in the water, which helps keep them from redepositing on your clean laundry." I'm gonna guess that the laundry detergent manufacturers will need to catch up to the new technology, and it won't be easy. In the meantime, these machines are making some of us crazy.

I can only offer that the ingredient that has helped my rinsing the most is baking soda -- but I don't have a water softening system. It is cruel but I think you'll find only experimentation will get you to a place where things are acceptable. I know that I live with laundry that isn't as clean as I'd like it because I have to curtail how much detergent I use, isn't as soft as I'd like it because there is a residue problem, not as easy and inexpensive as I'd like it because I have to add stuff to off-set conditions, not as fast or energy-efficient as I'd like it because I have to run every load through twice -- once with detergent and once without, but at least it's down to twice (three times if its something like my husband's jeans which require more soap).

We just had a service call. The service tech saw the number of hours on the machine and said, "You've had this machine about nine years, right?" We bought it in October of '04. So much for energy efficiency (mine and the electric company's -- thank goodness we're on well water).

I'll be shopping for a washer and dryer for our retirement home. Will I buy another Miele? Probably -- as long as I can get one with a separate rinse cycle. They are an extremely well-made machine. I love their customer service. I think the problem is inherent in any machine that is trying to clean with reduced amounts of water. I wish, for those of us on well water, that we could choose our water levels, because for us it is far more important that we use non-toxic cleaning agents that won't pollute rather than conserve water usage, as it goes right back into the ground on our land.

My recommendation, breath deeply, consider it an on-going experiment and know you are not alone.

My heart goes out to you.


 o
RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

I bought the model before the 1213. I thought I was getting the one with 4 or 5 rinses but by then the number was reduced to 2 or 3 - but each one of the rinses used more water than an individual rinse on the older models. I think they reduced the rinses added high speed spins, but kept the same amount of water used per cycle. It does have the separate fine rinse cycle which gives two very high fill(water 1/2 way up the door) rinses.

After a while I found the programming instructions for it -at the Australian web site and was able to program much higher water fills for the rinses....which are way better and wonderful now. Not sure if there are instructions for the 1213.

Anyway no instructions were printed in the manual distributed by Miele North America. The new larger machines can be programmed for additional water- again no printed instructions included as now energy star is demanding even less water be used for all machines sold in 2008.

Since we seem to be stuck with these energy star requirements perhaps we should demand that detergent manufacturers for the USA make clean rinsing Tl and He detergents. It can be done because they exist in Europe and we use to have low sudsing detergents sold in the USA. That changed in the early 90's. Back then I used to use liquid Tide in my FL. NO WAY TODAY.


 o
I'm back

Hi I am finally back from 2 weeks of crazyness, family from out of state, washer problems and a huge tree fell on our house and carport the night of the 4th. We came back from watching fireworks and there it was, we had a micro burst wind storm 75 mph, I think it had to be more than that.

Well my DIL filled the washer "jam_packed" full of clothes, even knowing the problems I have had with it. I had asked her to get her clothes ready that she wanted washed and I would load and put the soap in and start it for her when ever she needed them cleaned. I didnt know that she had loaded the washer untill I went to check the clothes I had in the dryer and discovered the washer was so full you couldnt see the top of the drum and they were on the last rinse, I made my husband put them in the dryer, I wouldnt touch them, I am sure they didnt wash good, OH WELL, but she did manage to put her new dark jeans in with a few new white towels, now I have blue grey towels.

djdoggone
Thank you! I am sorry that you had to go thru the same thing as I am, its just wrong!!! that anyone has to. I have been hoping that someone that has had the same problem and washer or with different washer would come on and tell there issues of suds. You did go thru alot to find out what the problem was. I am still working on it.
I know that everyone thinks that I'm crazy because they dont have this problem, but the problem is real! I too am disabled do to severe back pain and surgeries, and have a chair to sit and watch.
I do have soft water but have bypassed it for a couple weeks now, I might still try the baking soda. I am surprised that you having well water that you had such a problem.
So have you decided what you are going to buy? Good luck! I hope that you find something that REALLY WORKS.
I will take a deep breath and let my husband know its not just me Thank you.


I was doing a load of towels the other day and there were no suds in the wash cycle, so as it was filling and tumbling on the rinse cycle there still was no suds so I turned the softner back on as it was still filling and tumbling and after tumbling there they were "SUDS" worse then the picture I posted, about 2 inches of SUDS all around the towels, so I bypassed it again and put them thru another delicate "more water" cycle, but I have noticed that lately the delicate hasnt been filling more water, I have only seen it fill with more a couple times. Now my towels are all stiff again. I am sure its going to take me awhile to get the suds out AGAIN!

Why would the machine sometimes put more water when I do the delicate cycle?

Tomorrow I am calling to get the techs out here again.

Also my clothes are dingy looking after using Charlies, do I have to use another product with it?

Thanks everyone.


 o
RE: Stiff towels, I now know why!

Speaking of CRAZY checkout this guys blog on stinky, stiff and soap filled cloths from his Whirlpool Duet.
(http://whirlpool-dueling-with-duet.blogspot.com/)
I think he has solved the problem with his washer but this is not for everyone. I've been working on a simple solution for adding more water after reading about his results. It just takes a lot of time if you have other things that you have to do like make a living in today's economy. I know Whirlpool has made my life miserable for awhile now maybe someday I can return the favor by not purchasing anymore of their products! I know that I will ask a lot more questions next time and take a close look at the return policy before purchasing another front loader. I'm hoping to increase water level in my machine without making any modifications to the machine other than adjusting the travel path for the small hose that connects the water level sensor to the tub. If this works I'll post my results. The more that I read about these machines gives me hope that I'll never have to buy a new washer again; all I'll hope to have to do is ride around the neighbor hoods and look for the newest one on the curb!!!

Tim


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