Hi, another question, maybe the great minds on the laundry forum can answer :>)

I am wondering, if I used an hour pre- soak cycle on hot with BioKleen Premium laundry powder which has enzymes and oxygen bleach; would this be long enough to conclude that the enzymes have done their maximum work ?

In my experiment with stain sample in earlier posts, I did not soak them first. I just did a 30 minute wash cycle. Does anyone think, that pre-soaking like this could sort of compensate to a tiny degree for a 1 hour long wash cycle in a Miele or Bosch.? After pre-soaking, I could then switch to washing cycle and wash for 30 minutes and rinse several times. Might this clean whites better? If clothes are in an enzyme solution for a long period of time, might this allow the enzymes to work better at removing stains?

Was the GE front load washer good?
The GE was pretty good, but the Miele is heaven. :) The GE was a bit rough on our clothes -- it made everything pill really fast and I have no idea why. I ended up washing everything on the delicates cycle all the time which meant it used a little more water, but nowhere close to what my old Kenmore toploader used of course.

The man at Sears tried to tell me yesterday that " all " the U.S. machines do not allow a person to set temperature on water hotness. He said all only offer the " sanitize " function. And that that is the only way to get hotter water. Meaning, I would have to only use sanitize function, all the time. He did not say that the sanitize works on other cycles. ( but maybe he meant that, I don't know )
Well... I'm no expert and don't know much about machines I haven't owned, but on the machines I did own it's like your temperature-controlled Kenmore. Warm is supposed to be X degrees, hot is X degrees, etc. and the washer uses its internal heater to help the water reach that temperature. I've heard that on the newer Miele's the heater does not engage on the "normal" cycle because they were trying to get around the energy star ratings and using the heater means using more electricity which meant a worse rating. But the heater does engage on the other cycles. My Miele doesn't meet the energy star requirements so it uses its heater like it should. Not sure about other brands/models but maybe some similar dynamic exists?

what is the consensus about which water temp will get those whites clean? In other words if there is a washer which has an internal heater that function on other cycles as well, is 140 degrees a good temp., that will get those whites clean. I notice that some people on the Laundry forum use consistently 158 degrees for everything, and they are almost certain that it does not damage any clothes.
I guess the general theory is that hotter/longer = whiter. The trade off is high heat is not good for elastics -- they will break down faster. I believe higher heat tends to fade colors faster but that's not a concern if we're talking whites. I also notice that when I use "very warm" (50C or 122F) on colors that some items bleed a little which contributes to a slight dingeyness on lighter-colored items in the load, and it might be my imagination but I think the clothes pill faster/more at higher heat.

The people I know in Europe all use commercial laundry detergents just like many Americans do, just no bleach. And detergents there seem to be more clearly marked "bio" or "non-bio" which means whether it has enzymes or not, I think. I don't think they make very extensive use of the highest heat cycles -- certainly not on everything -- although it is unheard of to wash things in what we call "cold" or tap cold. Their "cold" is more what we would call lukewarm and I think a lot of people wash most things on warm (40C), though I'm just guessing as I haven't talked to that many Europeans about how they do their laundry and I imagine it may vary by country as well. I do see the difference in our clothing's washing instructions, especially in children's clothing... with most US clothing instructions saying to wash in "cold" (30C) or "warm" (40C) while the clothes sent to us as gifts from Sweden usually say to wash in hot (60C).

The other thing is, I think many/most/all of their detergents have phosphonates which according to the folks on many a laundry forum really contributes to whiter whites. We took phosphates out of our detergents years ago and I don't think anyone has replaced it with phosphonates here... maybe it's not legal to do it. Phosphonates are a photo-degraded form of phosphates.

Thanks for posting your experience with Vaska -- good to know that I am not the only one with the mountain of suds. Your explanation makes sense. I've never thought about using a detergent without enzymes for wool -- that makes sense too and I will save my Vaska for that. I was going to give Vaska one more go on the chocolate stains to see if it takes care of it on the second try, but after hearing your experience with it and stains, I think I will consider my Vaska trial over and reach for the Persil instead.

On the advice of hidroman here, I've been pre-soaking most items instead of doing a pre-wash to save water and power. (I still do a pre-wash if I want the water to drain away before going into the main wash -- i.e. if the clothes are really dirty or saturated with pee.) It's been working pretty well for me. But, I read on another forum that most American detergents are not formulated to hold soils in suspension for longer than half an hour, so the dirt ends up being redeposited on the clothing instead of being rinsed away. My understanding is that Persil holds the dirt particles in suspension for longer so it's OK to soak for more than a half hour and then wash the items in the soak water when using Persil.

If you believe the above, I guess the workaround would be to soak with detergent for half an hour, drain the water away and then start the wash cycle with new water and new detergent?

I guess the European detergents are better/more sophisticated than our Tide after all... but I'm starting to think they have even more crap in it than we do. But I'm OK with that :)

czechchick2, for whites with Vaska I would add an oyxgen bleach. I was using BioVert but also now have the Vaska liquid version. I've been doing this for a few years with white towels and sheets and my whites are definitely not dingy or grey and I don't have a FL with onboard heater. I would think the Vasak would leave less residue to bother your BFs skin.

I really like the smell. Makes me think real "herbal" not fake floral smell.

I still use Persil Sensitive Megaperls for white clothes (ie. socks) as I think they need the added benefit of enzymes, etc ...

I find Vaska great for items like sheets and towels which are not really that "dirty".

How do you find the suds level of Vaska in your machines? Do you find it too sudsy as well? I have no problem with suds. My friend who has the Miele W4842 didn't have a problem either. Another laundry mystery??

hcj, oh goodness...well, I soaked them for an hour and washed for 30 minutes and did three rinses. Next time I will soak only 30 minutes. I ordered Persil Sensitive just now..a small box/bag to try ( 20 loads )..to see if it gets stains out better, and if we get scratchy. Should be here in 5 days or so. And then I will do a soak for my clothes in Persil. I will let everyone know what happens.

Hope you let me know what happens with the chocolate stain and Persil. Maybe you will have a new fruit juice stain by then too. :>)

I have been reading about washers that do a " profile wash."
They gradually heats water as the clothes tumble in water...to allow for cooler water first to remove protein stains, then it heats the water to hotter and hotter temp to allow enzymes to work and stains to come out.

http://www.thathomesite.com/faq/lists/laundry/2003053858021558.html

Where to start? Hm...

European front loaders used to be faster in the past - cycle times of over two hours were probably unheard of. But as energy conservation became more of an issue, cycles became longer. In the 80's, washers had 3000+ watts heaters and would guzzle lots of water. Our 1984 washer did a cool-down at the end of the main wash that would fill the drum more than half way up! Each of the four rinses filled the drum about 1/4. Lots of water!
Many years later, the EU introduced a labeling system that rates every washer by cleaning ability, energy consumption and spinning performance. On top of that, many stores and especially catalogs would advertise the overall water consumption in big numbers across the washer. In this case, less is more, of course. Therefore, manufacturers decreased the water and energy consumption as much as they could - to be competitive. Unfortunately, this lead to looong cycle times.

Today, cycle durations in Europe are becoming shorter again. There are numerous cycles and options from all the different manufacturers to shorten the wash. One hour is usually what you're looking at for a regular, lightly soiled load. Bosch, for one, allows you to select either a normal wash, which is like 90 minutes, or to add one of the Perfect options. SpeedPerfect reduces the normal cycle to one hour. EcoPerfect increases it to over three hours. Saving takes time... Of course, there are also extreme cases. Whirlpool's European version of the Duet takes slightly over five hours to complete the SuperEco 140°F cycle - with lots of mid-cycle soaking. Then again, they say it uses 60% less energy than your average 140° cycle.

So reason number one for extended cycles is the race to make super-efficient washers. Reason number two is the ridiculous capacity rating our washers have. Efficiency is not the only selling point anymore - every machine is already rated "A" for energy conservation and some are up to 30% more efficient than what was originally required to get the "A" rating when the labeling system was introduced. Now, capacity matters. The problem is, however, that you can only get so much drum space into a 24 inch wide cabinet. Manufacturers claim that our8 small washer will hold as much laundry as some of the large US washers. How so? By increasing cycle time, of course! So there you have it: efficiency and over-rated capacity are the two main driving forces for our longer cycle time. The good thing is that, in reality, only the so called Energy Label Reference Cycle (Cottons 140°F) takes really long because this is the one cycle the Energy Label is based on. Naturally, every manufacturer tries to make this one cycle as efficient as possible. This is the very reason why Miele does not use the heater on Normal - to get a better rating despite the fact that other cycles will use more energy but are overlooked by Energy Star.

As far as your 4 - 5 rinses theory goes. No dear, you're sadly mistaken on that one! Three rinses is the standard. The aforementioned Energy Label Reference Cycle might - on some machines - do only two rinses for efficiency's sake. But because these three shallow rinses don't get detergent out too well - see the average scores across the board for rinsing performance in our consumer magazine - every washer will offer at least one extra rinse. Some offer up to three (Bosch/Siemens) or even a 104° heated final rinse (LG).

As for our detergents being more advanced - yes, I sometimes think so. Okay, the last time I did a load of laundry in the US was years ago but from looking at the list of ingredients of Tide HE Powder vs Persil Magaperls, I can immediately see that Tide has two enzymes versus four in Persil. Wonder why that is? By the way, the UK is the only country with non-bio detergent, I think.

Regarding: doing laundry the European way. Well, I think hcj1440 described it pretty well. You throw a sorted load of laundry into the washer, add whatever chemicals you need, set and forget. The washer works fully automatic. I remember how much "work" was involved in doing a load of whites at my aunt's house in Fresno... First: wash whites in bleach with lid open. Once the main wash finished, the washer would pause ( -> soak) until you closed the lid. Second: after some soaking, close the lid and let the cycle finish. Third: come back and run the washer over again with detergent. Fourth: don't miss the rinse cycle to add softener! Now, my aunt's laundry routine was probably not the best one (soaking stuff in bleach) and modern top loaders have all kinds of dispensers etc. but it goes to show how much labor and active participation laundry day with a top loader can require. Since no running back and forth is required with a front loader, people just throw the laundry in and walk off. For processing large amounts of laundry, a TL is probably faster, tough.

Finally, the comment on the Sanitary cycle as being the only hot cycle on modern front loaders is - as usual from a sales person - wrong. Several manufacturers offer a cycle or option to raise the water temp above warm but below Sanitize.

Whirlpool allows you to select Sanitize temp on Whitest Whites, Heavy Duty and Bulky Items. There's also a Deep Clean option that starts out as a warm wash and then heats to hot or sanitize (depending on the model with or without steam). Electrolux has the Perfect Steam option that heats the water to hot but not sanitize. LG (and therefore Kenmore) has the Stain Treat option to perform a warm to hot profile wash. Samsung has something similar. GE. Of course Bosch and Miele. So you're not limited to Sanitize if you want a hotter-than-warm wash.

So much for now.

Alex

mariwen, do you soak clothes? When I wash a load of very dirty/stained clothes (particularly such loads as white socks and stained white t-shirts), I soak them in HOT water and detergent -- usually overnight. I learned years ago (in science class) that baking soda doubles the whitening/sanitizing power of chlorine bleach, which means I can use a small amount of bleach (usually 1/2 cup) when I use baking soda (I usually use 1 cup) -- in a huge 4.6 cu ft washer. The baking soda leaves the clothes very soft and sweet-smelling. I also use white vinegar in the final rinse. It strips all detergent out of the clothes. They come out very clean, very white, very soft.

A lot of people really like to use Dawn on greasy stains. I mysels prefer Shout, but from what I hear, Dawn is very effective at breaking up grease.

Whirlpool trainee, thanks for all of your info. So, which washer then, lasts the longest, and which one is least expensive to repair and also has least repair calls.....that also has water heated up to either a gradual cool to really hot of 158? ( or at least 140 degrees ) in all cycles or as you state: three/four at least in some ? Is there a competent washer? made well to highly reduce needs to repair, yet it does get clothes very clean using the least chemicals ? ( or at least rinses so much the chemicals are virtually almost gone )

Mara: yes, I do soak. I am more like the gal that is the Aunt of Whirlpool trainee. I " participate " a lot. And I don't want to anymore. I dont like to use chemicals. I don't want to use chlorine bleach or shout, etc. I do know that ' shout ' does a pretty good job though. A long time ago, I used it. But I don't want to feel like I "have " to use these things, just to get clothes clean. I want to be more like Whirlpool Trainee mentions: " load and forget " and clothes come out very very clean using the more natural function of HOT hot water, perhaps. I am still learning, so I am not an expert...:>)

What I would like is a very competent washer that will do what whirlpool trainee describes. But I don't want it to fall apart in 7 years. My relatives had washers for 30 years, and I don't know why I can't have one of those too, but that also will now in the current time: 2010; clean the clothes in a 'load and forget ' mode using HOT hot water. And also one that is not that expensive to repair, and also has low repair calls, because it is so well made in the first place. ( yes, I want a magic carpet ride lol.)

I don't like the idea/concept of planned obsolescence to make profit on parts. It seems to me to be way to exploit the public, and make/force them to pay the price of their faulty design to begin with. All I am asking for is well made machine that lasts and does what it is supposed to do. And repairs are few. I realize we have an economy to keep going, but not via my washing machine, lol. I am not against repairs if needed,but I am hoping someone in this world can design a good washing machine like I describe, since we can put satellites up in the sky and rockets on the moon. We ought to be able to make a really good machine that cleans whites without too many chemicals. And this is why i was amazed that Europeans have accomplished it using HOT hot water. ( I know they use some detergent as well)

I have only called a repairman to fix a washer once in my life. All of my washers just lasted without repair calls. I would like to have the same thing now....IF I replace what I have. Mine mechanically works fine and no repair calls. Its just that it does not heat the water like more european machines seem to do.

Whirlpool trainee: When I heard that only sanitize function gives the ONLY HEATED water, I got concerned because..what if I use that button only. I imagined that over use of it, would cause the machine to fail in a short span of years, because maybe it was not designed to be used every day, a number of times a day, etc. But what I hear you saying is: that the Duet will heat water to hot, in about 4 different cycles, ..am I interpreting correctly?

I feel frustrated, can you tell? :>)

Mariwen, may I boldly suggest my very own washer, the last generation of the 220v Mieles... w1213 (white) or w1215 (stainless). It has been discontinued, so you can get it for a discount price (I paid $1300). Truly a Euro-style machine, you won't be disappointed!

hcj, thanks !

I wonder how expensive Miele washers are to repair ? Do they break a lot? I have their platinum vacuum. Because I am so allergic, ...sadly this time: to dust mites and dust.

They are probably more expensive to repair because you probably need to call a more specialized service person, and the parts cost more.

On the plus side I keep hearing that they are engineered to last 20 years. I don't think they break a lot, but don't know for sure.

I got a good price on the washer itself but then had to pay for these extras:
1) a Miele conversion kit so I could run two 220v appliances off one outlet (since the washer is 220v and the dryer is too, and both needed to be run off the one 220v outlet that most American homes have)
2) a Miele stacking kit as I wanted to stack the dryer on top of the washer
3) we saved on the installation cost -- DH installed it -- but that would be been around $200

Anyway, the washer was a good price but when you buy Miele this and Miele that on top of it at regular prices, it ends up being more expensive. Just wanted to be totally honest.

P.S. I've always lusted after their vacuum :)

hcj, just out of curiosity, was the conversion kit an adaptor: something that you just modify the outlet? or does a person have to change the wiring behind the wall or run a new line to the circuit box? My husband just asked that, I'm not that technically knowledgeable about those things. I have same as you: one dryer outlet to fit American dryer. So, maybe like you, I would have to use that one outlet for both appliances, IF I get a new washer.

I think I read somewhere when looking up a miele here on the forum, Lee mentioned he had to do something to the actual wiring. I might not be remembering correctly though.
Thats why I am curious.

We didn't do anything to the wiring -- just plugged in the converter thing and plugged the washer and dryer into the converter. I think you just need the standard 220v, 30 amp outlet to use it.

Our other option was to rewire, but the electrician bill was going to be the same or more as the converter.

oh thats good to know hcj, thanks.

Here is a blurb on Miele repair costs that I found interesting; Maybe interesting to others...I don't know.

For Miele: " parts are likely to be expensive too because they are high quality parts. The idea though is that breakdowns should be far fewer, and overall, over a long period, the cost of owning and maintaining a Miele should be cheaper than buying cheap washing machines. However: Miele currently have really long guarantees that reflect their confidence in the quality - although these guarantees swap and change all the time because Miele use them for promotion instead of price cutting."

http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/reviews/miele-w864-review.html

Miele's Easy Installation Kit:

{{gwi:2003530}}

They make (made?) two of them:

057B - plugs into NEMA 10-30P (old-style 3-slot outlet with shared neutral/ground)
060B - plugs into NEMA 14-30P (new-style 4-slot outlet with separate ground)

Both provide two 240V outlets each with their own 15A circuit breaker so a 240V/15A washer and 240V/15A dryer can be plugged into the Easy Installation adapter, and it plug into your 240V/30A wall outlet (most commonly used just for an American 240V/30A electric dryer)

What's confusing me is that Miele seems to have changed the style of plug they equipped their American 240V washers with somewhere along the way. Although it needs only 15 amp service, my Miele washer (W1926) has a NEMA 14-20P plug, the kind normally found on a 240V/20A appliance. But evidently Miele later started equipping both their 240V/15A washers and 240V/15A dryers with NEMA 14-30P plugs, the kind normally fitted to new American-style 240V/30A dryers. They are considerably larger than the 20A plugs but similar in configuration. I think the picture above shows 30A outlets, but without knowing its size it's hard to tell.

You can also add a 240V/15A circuit breaker to your electric panel if there's room for it and run a new outlet for the 240V washer to it. I'm not sure if Miele's dryers are fused at 15A or not; I know Bosch and some Akso 240V/15A dryers are internally fused at 15A so they can be plugged right into common American or Canadian 240V/30A outlets/circuits.

Lee, my husband says thank you so much for all of the detail you provided. and he says: If we purchase a Miele at some point; Sounds like I can get away with just using the adapter you describe on my dryer outlet. If I bump into one of the newer 20amp style plugs, I'll know to look into whether there is also and adapter that can sit between the 20amp plug and the outlet adaptor or whether the possibility exists to change the cord on the appliance 15amp style.

My question: does anyone know if I could keep my current American dryer along with a Miele washer with that kind of adapter ?( yes they would be unmatched ) Or, with that adapter, am I required to get a Miele dryer also? Just trying to know ahead of time. Thanks.

If you have a gas dryer, probably yes. If it's a 30-amp 240V electric dryer, you probably can't run both from the same circuit (there are some dryers that could be used this way if you avoid the high-heat setting, but you really need to know how your dryer works if you attempt this).

Some Bosch and Asko dryers have a fused 240V/15A outlet built into the back of them; these dryers can be plugged into a 240V/30A outlet and you can use the back-of-the-dryer outlet for a 240V Miele washer (you may have to change the plug though).

My husband says thanks and " I am just amazed at all the work arounds that people have come up with to use European appliances in the U.S. or perhaps for Europeans who have only one outlet. Its just amazing how many configurations there are to solve the problem ".

PERSIL:

For any that might be interested,..I found something out about the Persil version sold in France. The article states that the French version: uses " skin friendly " ingredients and " natural " ingredients. Maybe the French version is better for skin sensitive people?

" Unilever also market Persil in France. In this market, the brand focuses on natural ingredients and skin-friendly formulations and is sold alongside Unilever's main brand in France, Skip. In French, Persil means "Parsley" which lends itself to being a more herbal, natural product. Henkel also sells its Persil formulation in France under the name Le Chat, as Unilever owns the naming rights to Persil in this country. Therefore, it can be said that the original Persil products (by Henkel) are indeed sold in France but under a different name, while the product actually labelled Persil in this market is a differently positioned detergent from Unilever. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persil

The Persil that is continually touted and mentioned on this website and some others is the Henkel Persil product. However the Persil brand name goes back many years and long ago the rights to the name were somehow given/sold to Unilever in some countries. French/Unilever Persil is a completely different product than the German Henkel Persil and is not related. It may be more natural etc but again, you may as well consider it a completely different brand and cannot latch on the cleaning properties touted by many here.

And on that topic -- Persil cleaning properties -- something finally dawned on me. The half hour pre-soak with Persil that I've been doing on most loads seems to make or break the stain removal process. I finally put together that whenever I select pre-wash instead of pre-soak, the stains don't go away. That is probably why I was not impressed by my first attempts with Persil but then changed my mind as time went on as it seemed to be doing better with the stains. The detergent didn't change, and I wasn't crazy at first. I changed my laundering habits to doing a half hour soak instead of a pre-wash, and that seems to have made all the difference.

I'm going to have to reload on my old favorite detergent, Ecover, and try the soak thing with it... very curious to see if it does better on stains this way, because I do love it in all other respects.

hcj1440, I'm wondering if the pre-soak helps as it gives the enzymes time to do their thing (eat stains). I'm guessing pre-soaking with any detergent with enzymes will help with certain stains.

Not all enzyme detergents are created equal. Some have 4 kinds of enzymes and some have only 2 (I believe each enzyme works on different types of stains - ie. protein, starch, grease, etc ...). Not sure what Ecover's enzyme compilation is.

Thanks! hcj, okay I will remember that the German Persil is better. Its coming to me in the mail soon I hope for me to try.

Also, I am so glad I got to know you and you were here at the right time...to share with me about your Miele and how your clothes come out good, becuase i think that when its time; I am going to get the Miele you have. Maybe I can find a good used one..that functions very good and still has a lot of years left on it. Because at least you know what you have and you know it works, etc. I am going to write your Miele # down that you have, and save it for when I need it. I think after reading everything, that it is unfortunately... the hot water and temps and the agitation cycles that american machines don't have. That is probably what makes a big difference, along with some good detergent that may be good for sensitives like me. And also a Miele because it is expected to last a lot longer than Bosch because it is made well, hopefully that reduces probability of needing repair to very very infrequently. All my washers/dryers have lasted a long time..very long time..with no repairs and so did my parents machines. Hopefully the Miele will be like that. ( hoping hoping :) )

Which dryer do you have, just out of curiosity? same: 1213/1215?

Thanks for your insight about the soaking: I will also try it: presoaking stains no longer than 24 hours old for 30 minutes, in BioKleen Premium AND Ecover non chlorine bleach and see what happens. It could be that my sample stains of two days old were just too old. And I really didn't expect the blueberry to come out, but I thought the chocolate might and the juice and the coffee.

Would love to know what you think about the Persil Sensitive. I do think the soak is working because it gives the enzymes time to do their work. I have the w1215 washer and t1403 dryer -- I am expecting them to last a long time!

P.S. Since you are considering buying used... the Miele I have is less preferred in some circles because it has an electronic panel -- the even older models like w1986 have a dial instead of electronic controls and that is supposed to have fewer potential problems. It also gives you more option combinations because you can choose all the settings yourself -- the w1215 could be considered a bit "dumbed down" for Americans who just want to press one button. Good luck!

This won't help with getting things white but I use white vinegar to help remove soapfrom my laundry loads.

Thanks hcj, I will let you all know what happens when I try the Persil.

Thanks for the info about the dryer, I just wondered which one might be good, since maybe it looks like I do have to get a dryer also,because of the outlet plug converter situation.

Lee has a 1926, and I wonder if he likes that one.

hcj, your washer is a larger capacity is that right? I have a lot of clothes, so a small capacity would take me so long to get through that I would be concerned about things really building up around here, laundry wise.

Thanks Rachael for your comment.

hcj, your washer is a larger capacity is that right? I have a lot of clothes, so a small capacity would take me so long to get through that I would be concerned about things really building up around here, laundry wise.

The w1215 is what Miele calls "large" capacity but it is not the supersize that most American frontloaders are (when you walk into Home Depot or Lowes and see all the floor models, it is not that size). It's 6kg and I'm not sure what that translates to in cubic feet. It looks small compared to a toploader drum but it holds as much or more than my Kenmore toploader did (I can pack it fuller than the toploader and it still cleans well). When you look at the drum keep in mind there is no agitator in the middle taking up all that space.

Compared to the Miele 48XX series models it is much smaller. The 48XX series is super-sized like the other frontloaders sold in the US market. The trade off is the 48XX run on 110v and do not have a boil wash, and apparently has fewer anti-vibration type technologies (at least that's what I'm reading here). It goes up to 158F and not 203F like mine does. Also I believe the heater does not engage in the normal cycle although you can certainly work around that by using the other cycles.

FWIW, My GE was 3.8 cu ft (slightly smaller than the 4+ cu ft in many machines today) and when I first made the switch from Kenmore toploader to it, I had a very hard time filling the drum to capacity and frequently washed with less-than-full in it. Of course over time I adjusted and managed to fill it full for most loads (I ended up combining loads I didn't used to combine -- like towels, sheets and kitchen towels all together -- I closed my eyes and hoped the sanitize function would take care of any potential grossness from mixing it all up). And with my current "large capacity" Miele w1215 that most people would think of as small, so far (knock on wood) I have not wished for a larger drum even though I switched from the big GE to it. In fact, these last couple of weeks as I'm doing all the detergent tests, I have been under-loading the machine every time and wishing I had more to put in it. So there you go... real life user input, but only from one person :)

Wow, what a long thread! I read many of the replys, but got lost somewhere in the middle!

I recently tried Seventh Generation Natural Powder detergent on my whites after reading the July 2009 laundry detergent review in Consumer Reports. I had been using the SG liquid detergent, and even occasionally Tide Free and Clear HE liquid.

I have always washed whites in my current machine as follows: Cotton temperature boost cycle (on my machine, this heats up to 150 degrees) and an extra rinse cycle- for a total of 100 minute cycle. The whites have always been pretty clean, but not "bright" white. I don't like to use bleach on my clothing.

I tried a load with 2 1/2 tablespoons of Seventh Generation powder detergent and the whites look really white. However, the clothing is not super soft. Since that load, I have run some other loads with vinegar in the first rinse and the clothing has been softer.

Anyway, my DH sweats a lot and his white undershirts had yellow stains on the underarms. While they have not completely disappeared, they are much cleaner looking, and even my dirty socks are whiter.

SG powder has gotton out a jelly stain and a coffee stain in warm water with a pre-soak and extra rinse (warm on my machine is 95 F). I purposefully did not do any pre treatment. STains had been on the clothing longer than 24 hours.

I have sensitive skin, although am able to use the Seventh Generation products okay (even those with fragrance- by the end of the time in the dryer, the fragrance is mostly gone), and Tide Free and Clear liquid okay. Many of the other Tide products bother me, and forget about most of the other "branded" detergents with fragrances, most make my skin itchy and I cannot stand the fragrances.

The SG powder has enzymes in it, which is helpful with certain stains.

Barbara

hcj, thanks ! I think I will stick with the ones that reach the high temp. like you have. I think Lee's temp went high also. I will wait for him to post what he thinks of his.
But, I have already written your Miele model down so I know which one to look for when I buy another one. And I wrote your dryer model down also. :>)

Was your previous Kenmore a larger capacity washer like my current one is? if so, then that is really good news to hear that the Miele can hold what your Kenmore did.

When I finally do receive the Persil, and I try it, how much would you all think might be a good starting amount for a top loader ? I read somewhere on this laundry forum, that maybe 1/4 cup?

I also read on Persil website, that if there are stains, that soaking with Persil for 30 minutes is a good thing to do. So, I think I will try that also.

Soaking is always a good thing to try for stains. It works wonders, especially if you soak with a product that contains enzymes... like Persil. Or even Biz.

Yes, from what I understand, some Whirlpool washers allow you to select the Sanitize temperature one three (or four) different cycles. I will attach a video highlighting this. It's a training video from Whirlpool where they basically bash LG because, well, they are the biggest competitor, it seems.

The vid also says that Warm is 104° and Hot is 140°, which would be warmer than most US front loaders. There is also a Max Rinse option, which is good for sensitive skin.

You may also want to check out the new Frigidaire washers. They look very identical to the Electrolux IQ Touch washers but are cheaper. They have a bunch of options such as an Allergy mode with "multiple rinses" and a Stain Pre-Treat option that "fills with cold water, tumbles for ten minutes and then starts to heat the water". Nice!

Here is the link to a Frigidaire washer: FAFS44741. The user manuals are online, too.

However, I think Miele will ultimately give you the best fabric care. And you can set some (all?) Miele washers to give you extra deep rinses via a hidden service menu like seen here. Only thing that speaks against Miele is/ may be the lack of an extra-sophisticated anti-vibration system and, of course, the price.

Alex

Was your previous Kenmore a larger capacity washer like my current one is? if so, then that is really good news to hear that the Miele can hold what your Kenmore did.

I wish I remembered the model number on my Kenmore, but it has been over 5 years since I got rid of it so I no longer recall. I do think we got the largest capacity Kenmore available at the time and I remember it had a ridiculous amount of cycle options -- top of the line. I think we bought it in the mid to late '90s.

Thanks hcj !

and thanks whirlpool trainee for all the links etc. I will watch them. Thanks for going to ALL the trouble of posting them and writing all of that !

Wow ! you guys are amazing !

Still waiting for the Persil, I ordered it on Amazon, from a company that said it would take an extra 5 days or so. I don't know why the delay, but..thats where I am. I ought to have ordered from a different company on Amazon, but I was not paying attention to how long it might take. Usually when I order on Amazon I get the order within a week. I got this order from Better Products company, so I am still waiting. I won't order from them again thats for sure.

On temp of Hot water and adjusting detergent amounts for Whites !

New Info ....maybe this is also another factor?

I found a new report that shows the results of a German Study which was designed to look at older washing machines vs. newer ones and their individually different hot water temperatures and cleaning performance variations. They determined in the results of testing, how to compensate for the difference of hot water temp. using/adjusting the amount of detergent to the temperature of the water.

I used a calculator to translate Celsius to U.S. F degrees. 90 C is equal to 190 F, and 60C is equal to 140 F, and 40C is equal to 104 F.

In the report they did a study on older washers in Germany and performance and newer washers in Germany and performance.

Here is what they found: ( significant part is in >>> below.)

" The results are presented here in terms of the washing performance index and class definitions used
in the European energy labelling scheme, although the test conditions were not all in accordance with
those used in this system. Nevertheless, a three-dimensional plot of the performance fields (Fig. 5)
which washing machines can achieve depending on the amount of detergent used and on the
temperature selected, provides the best overview of the results.

performance can be achieved (Fig. 5, a) in a 90 °C programme with only 50 % of the rated detergent
dose, in a 60 °C programme with the rated detergent dosage, or in a 40 °C programme with 150 % of
the rated detergent dose. >>>>

Thus, consumers are basically free to select any one of these options to
achieve a specific level of cleaning performance, the only limitation being the temperature stability of
the fabrics to be washed. "

So for water temp. differences, they are upping the detergent ?

The report states:

for all three detergent dosages (Fig. 6) shows that performance, in addition to varying greatly between
machines, can be adjusted effectively via detergent dosage.>>>

here is link for those interested: Scroll to 4.2: test results.

http://mail.mtprog.com/CD_Layout/Day_1_21.06.06/1400-1545/ID76_Stamminger_final.pdf

1/4 c. of peroxide in FL and 1/2 - 1 c. in top loader, the strength you buy at the grocer.

Wow! The lengths some of you go to, to get your clothes clean. I use a detergent that is Ph balanced and rinses out well. It is also made to work best in cold water. The same company makes a pre-spot that gets out most stains and a non-bleach whitener. My best friend also uses the same brand and her husband used to get rashes from her previous detergent, but no longer.

So for water temp. differences, they are upping the detergent?

It's true that clean laundry and dishes are the result of the combination of four components: time, temperature, mechanical and chemical action. If one decreases, another one has to be increased.

Therefore, modern dishwashers run longer but with cooler water temps; Cold Wash / Energy Save cycles and options on modern washers usually increase agitation or time to compensate for less heat; Tide Cold Water is stronger than regular Tide and so on...

However, some stains just need a higher temperature because oxy bleach will only activate at higher temps - ideally 140°F. Our consumer magazine recently tested powdered detergents and found out that light stains were even removed at 86°F using a cheap detergent from Lidl (Formil ultra plus). That being said, they still recommend 140°F for optimal removal of tough stains such as red wine.

Bottom line: no amount of detergent will get tough stains out if certain ingredients are not activated because the temperature is too low.

Alex

Wow! mariwen, I hope the Persil is working for you. I don't know how you do it with all the demands on you & your family. I thought my Mom & I had very sensitive skin, but I know now we have no problems compared to your family. If the Persil doesn't work you may consider working with a dermatologist to see if there is some way he/she might be able to test you & your family on some of the products they have found their patients to be able to tolerate best. I do know that just because a product has "natural" or "inactive" ingredients it doesn't mean I won't have a reaction to it. (For what it is worth I am able to use Tide Free successfully & some liquid fabric softeners. I cannot use Softener Sheets since they leave a film on clothes that I react to. Obviously you have vetted those things out.) The other situation a dermatologist may be able to help you with is assuring your skin is moisturized enough -- apply a light layer of moisture/water before applying lotion, use lotion daily, don't dry off after a shower/bath, then apply lotion -- mine currently suggests CeraVe: best price is at Costco pharmacy. My skin is less reactive when it is adequately moisturized.

For your original stain question: I discovered during a recent remodel when I had run out of time for pre-treating that throwing the clothes in my FL & putting on "heavy soil" worked miracles -- I had very few stains to worry about. Of course, I am using Tide Free & Clorox II. I also use additional rinse cycles in my FL; I find the fabric softener tends to work better. As well, it was hard for me to get used to putting such a small amount of detergent in the FL & it still working -- it is truly amazing how much money I am saving just on detergent with my FL.

I am interested that you guys react to Hydrogen Peroxide. I am not a chemist, but my understanding is it is one additional molecule of oxygen than water . . . (of course, I am not a chemist & I react to many "natural" products).

For stubborn stain treatment my Mom has often placed garments/linens in the sun with lemon juice & salt on the stain. It will need to be washed afterward.

Good luck!

> Lee has a 1926, and I wonder if he likes that one.

> I think Lee's temp went high also. I will wait for him to post what he thinks of his.

mariwen, sorry wasn't following this thread and missed your posts.... the W1986 is awesome. Besides the obviously high quality, it's the really straightforward controls I like the most. No need to decipher or guess what the machine will do if you select "workout wear" or "kid's clothes" or "heavy stains" or "lime-green trousers" - instead, just select the temperature (in degrees F), spin speed (in RPM), and just the few needed options for cycles, extra rinse water, and the like. What removes some stains will permanently set others, so manual control settings are better. What's best for stain removal, and most everything else, is filling with cool water and quickly heating the water to a higher temperature as it washes, which is what Miele's 240 volt internal water heater allows.

I especially like having the actual temperature markings, a rarity in U.S.-market washers. Can you imagine an oven that didn't show temperatures, just "cold", "warm", and "hot"? Of course, most older American washers couldn't put real temperatures on the dial since the actual temperature was a crapshoot anyway - "hot" meant whatever your water heater was set at (minus residual cold water in the plumbing), "cold" was whatever the outdoor weather happened to be that day, and "warm" was a combination of the two, with preference given to whichever of the two water intakes had higher water pressure.

Incidentally, if you use the higher-temp settings, the washer is smart enough to add some cool water to the tub before draining it, so for setups where the washer drains into a laundry tub (or a shower or bathtub), you won't have near-boiling water splashing around.

I decided to install a new double-pole 125/250v, 15A circuit breaker for it (Home Depot stocked the one I needed - they're inexpensive) and run new 12/3-plus-ground NM-B (Romex) wiring from the electrical panel to a new washer outlet in a surface-mounted box, all of which are easy to do since I have suspended ceiling tiles throughout my home, and my electric panel has a main shutoff switch (but remember the thick wires leading to it are still live, unless you have a separate box with the main power switch).

> the W1986 is awesome

whoops, W1926 not W1986. I haven't memorized the model number of my washing machine yet. What's wrong with me?

From what I was told here, the W1986 (successor to the W1926) was slightly less awesome, but still pretty great.

Still got it wrong..... W1966 not W1986 replaced W1926. I think. There was a Miele W1986 though, not sure where it fits in the timeline. Maybe it was a fancier model sold at the same time. I'm not a Miele expert obviously....

For those of you testing chocolate stains, what are you using for your chocolate? I believe some chocolate products have a brown dye in them. I once had a fast food chocolate milkshake stain that I couldn't get to fade even a bit! But I'm usually much more successful.

susanjn, a lot of people say they get could results on chocolate stains by using Dawn w/bleach on them. (The bleach in Dawn is not chlorine bleach, but an alternative bleach.)

This website gives advice about that. HTH

For a long time with my old TL (that's supposed to be so inferior to European-style FL), I get excellent results with all my laundry and stain removal by soaking in oxygen bleach (OxiClean). This required active participation: I would start the hot water flow into the machine, add the oxi, add detergent (enzyme-based Kirkland Free & Clear), switch to warm if required to be easier on fabrics (stayed with hot for whites). Then I'd let the clothes soak for at least 60 minutes, sometimes several hours or overnight. This soak eliminated most stains without pretreating. One important exception is oily/greasy stains. Oxi doesn't do well with those. Straight detergent on the stain, Shout Advanced, or citrus degreaser pretreatment is needed for oily stains.

I learned about the soak technique from Cook's Illustrated when they did their test of stain removers. Any organic, plant-based color stain, I think of oxi soak to remove it.

Over the years, though, my favorite white towels and tank tops harbor faint stain residues that accumulate till the items don't look good. Inspired by the book "Home Comforts" by Cheryl Mendelson, I soaked my beloved Champion tanks in Clorox, at the correct dilution, then hung them in the sun. They looked like new. Lesson learned: there is nothing like true bleach.

A few days ago, I bought a FL and tried the "Sanitize" cycle on stained white towels and T-shirts, and after nearly 3 hours was highly disappointed that many stains remained.

So I still think soaking in oxi is more effective than a long, hot wash cycle in FL. A long warm oxi soak is also gentler on the spandex fabric than either super-high temperature or chlorine bleach. So my overall strategy is to oxi soak every wash in warm/hot water, chlorine bleach soak occasionally as needed.

My detergent contains no optical brighteners, but those certainly make a huge difference in making whites look white. I read where people talk about how they're not "really" white because it's just an "illusion." This is nonsense. The only thing that MATTERS is how the color LOOKS to your eye/brain perceptual system. Garments that have lots of optical brighteners look great. Old garments whose optical brighteners have deteriorated look lousy, no matter how clean they are. I can see the amount of optical brighteners using a UV light.

So to the OP's problem, removing stains without pretreating, soaking in oxygen bleach is the best solution I know, but if the stain has an oily component, you must either pretreat with enzyme/surfactant or use a very strong detergent. If skin can't tolerate those cleaners, I can't see any way to have stain-free clothes, because I have tried tons of different things. I would therefore recommend diet/supplements to improve skin's barrier function. I have friends with reactive skin like this, that improved greatly with more protein and EFAs (fish oil) in their diets, plus B vitamins and chelated minerals. A formula of chelated magnesium, zinc, selenium, chronium, and vanadium, makes a HUGE difference in skin and nail health. I have seen it personally in many different people. And 3-5 grams of fish oil daily is a must for healthy skin.

Dylon Superwhite
I wonder if you can find somewhere or if anyone has Superwhite Dylon is a product that is no longer manufactured and they were a small blue cans. if anyone knows where to find it is much appreciated.
EscucharLeer fon�ticamente

I washed my baby's diapers many years ago. I went from a typical top loader to Asko front loader. I washed them in 180 to 190F in the Asko. Asko heats the water in the washer. It really did not matter what detergent I used. The temperature of the water did the trick for most stains. This is the reason why the linens were "boiled" in the olden days.

I also "soak" the dirty white things in Oxyclean and water in a bucket until I can wash them. Sometimes days, if I can't get to them. It is amazing what comes out of the dirty kitchen towels when they are just soaking!

I have a miele 1215T as well.

I have yet to find an equal to the mieles all steel ladles- and this is a big secret to the fabric care as plastic ladles will scratch and then drag the scratch over your clothes for the rest of time.

I have had the unit 6 years now and in the 6 years it has has 2 problems both quickly fixed.

I have not used bleach in the laundry for 6 years I have had the miele. A soak in oxy clean and or the nuclear heat if I press sanitize and I can blast clean nearly anything back to white. I have 2 boats, a toyhauler & 2 quads, a dirt bike, 3 cars and slew of weapons I clean after practice - nothing Ive ever owned cleans like this miele. Shop rags, socks you've been wearing in the yard without shoes, rancid and towels, and white cotton chaise covers brought out on weekends to the pool all yellow after use smeared with suntan oils and dirt- all blasted completely clean. Its amazing.

On sensitive you get three rinses and I had the miele guy mod the rinse mode for what they refer to as water+ so I get just a bit more water in the rinse modes- I have no problems with a normal rinse with a house of super sensitive rash prone denizens 2 teengers and Dw and I.

Ill occasionally do a load of cotton diapers for my sister on a visit and they come out completely white and fresh and not one case of diaper rash we have seen yet.

True you wont get a king comforter in a 1215, or if you do its going to be a thin one, but we sort our loads into 4 bins and never have a capacity problem when laundering sorted clothes.

There is only one problem with the 1215 and thats the price!

Uncle Dave

Biz is a great additive for treating stains in your laundry and also whitens using oxygen, not chlorine, bleach.

@ mariwen:

I order my Persil from abt.com, and they ship it for free and with no sales tax.

I second the approval of ABT. Those guys have been really helpful to me on several occasions; they'll price-match, they stand by their stuff, go to bat on warrantees, etc. And they're mail-order. I understand they are a very upstanding brick-and-mortar store as well so politically, you can have your cake and eat it too.

But FWIW I have a lot of luck with Biokleen getting whites white without bleach. I have no idea what's in it; doesn't say. I used it for years on diapers.