When I say "start again", my suggestion would be to start with a full-load of clean previously-washed laundry. By observing amount of suds in that load, you will learn very quickly about whatever residual may be in there. Might even take a mason-jar sample of the wash-water and rinse-water for examination.

Most Important thing is to verify the machine itself is free and clear before you begin.

@ dianepatterson

You might try running a clean machine cycle with a couple tablespoons of dishwashing powder like Cascade. If you do have any build-up, the dishwashing powder will help remove it better than using water alone.

(I hope I do this right and get these pictures in here correctly.)

I ran the Clean Machine cycle again today, with some chlorine bleach in the dispenser. There were many fewer suds than last time, but still quite a bit.

At 16 minutes left to go:

And after the buzzer sounded at the end:

When actually washing clothes I have NO suds. (Or a few. Far less than what's on the gasket in the end of cycle pic up there.)

I will check out Cascade.

@dianepatterson - That's a lot of suds. Seriously. My Miele doesn't do that when I run the Clean Machine cycle. I've run that cycle twice in the seven or eight weeks I've had our W4842.

Good, clear photos....good job with that.

No question about significant residual soap in there. What you're showing is more than a vestige.

Agree with the Cascade idea....the one with enzyme in it....but not very much. Until you can see the machine itself is clear, I don't see that anything else can be learned. The machine must be purged before going further.

Is there ANY other source for this residual except what you use for your laundry or residual within the laundry itself? Have you checked the drain-filter canister to see if maybe there's a chuck of soap in there? Is there a little undiscovered chunk of bath-soap hiding in the outer drum? Is this one of those machines that measures out it's own dose of detergent from a reservoir and it's leaking?

I'm becoming annoyed at my own inability to figure it out. I do not understand the persistence of the suds you're showing us at the end of these cleaning cycles. After your several clean machine cycles, I'm suspecting an undiscovered source of replenishment.

I don't think the 4842 has a reservoir of soap somewhere. I've never even run the machine with detergent in the Extra Soap reservoir. I use 30-40ml (one shotglass) of Persil per load , or one capful of Vaska. I've used a half scoop of OxyClean maybe twice (before I read that Persil Universal has optical brighteners).

We don't even use bath soaps in this house! So no kid has accidentally stuck a bar of Irish Spring in a load or something.

I will wipe down the gasket completely thoroughly after the second Clean Machine cycle I'm running today ends. I dumped out the suds by hand into the laundry sink before starting to run it again.

@dianepatterson said "I use 30-40ml (one shotglass) of Persil per load , or one capful of Vaska."

With your soft water, that may be too much. Your water may be really(!) soft. I used only one full capful of Vaska on towels, with my "medium" (middle-of-the-road) hardness, and had suds galore in the rinse.

Do you know exactly how soft your water is? You may need to be using half the amount you posted.

How high do you fill the machine for a "full load"? Most of my loads are half-way up, around to where the axis is, and I usually cut back on my detergent because it's a partial load. It's really too bad the owners manual does not show us what a full/medium/small load in our tub would be. Good grief,,,, it just adds to the learning curve.

I usually fill it about two-thirds to three-quarters of the way full. There's space at the top, but the tub is full. The clothes themselves are probably not that dirty. You said you're getting suds galore with medium hardness; with a full load of towels I get barely any suds.

Acc. to my local water company, the water in my area should be between 8.8 and 9.6 grains/gal. That's not after it goes through the water filter, though, of course.

Going to make a suggestion.....putting myself in your place, I believe I would start from "scratch".....by which I mean I would examine the machine thoroughly and then run another "clean machine" cycle.

From what you've shown and described, I cannot believe other than that there is an undiscovered source of soap bleeding into the machine. I would be looking for a clump of powder or a piece of something similar to it or a congealed spot of liquid clinging someplace. I'd start with the detergent drawer and sluice-way. Remove it; inspect and clean it; shine a light down into the hole. Open the drain filter and verify it's clear. Put my head inside the drum with a strong flashlight and examine the sump of the outer drum through the holes. Pull back the rubber boot and inspect all around and underneath its lip.

There must be some bit of soap or some saturated item or something similar in there.

After that, regardless of what found or not found, I would run another "clean machine" cycle and observe any difference from previously. Depending on what observed, I'd run another one. Perhaps whatever's in there will rinse away with sufficient cycling. The machine doesn't care. All it knows how to do is run. The machine must be verified clean. Consideration of your dosages and laundry procedures otherwise can't begin until after that.

If you have a softener, and from the look of your photos, I suspect your household water is soft, which would be zero grains. In any event, that's not your issue at this point. The persistent suds during the "clean machine" cycle speak for themselves.

I continue to be annoyed by this. This persistence of sudsing absent any known source is a new one for me but I think the indication is clear.

I will be very interested in learning the outcome of your continuing efforts and observations.

@ dianepatterson

I've got a hunch about what may work, and it sounds a bit crazy... If you have soap build-up, it wants something to bind to. When soap clings to your skin on a molecular level, softened water lacks the calcium or magnesium ion to pull that soap molecule away from your skin. This is why your hands feel slippery even after rinsing forever in softened water. This may also be why your drum doesn't appear to be rinsing despite running multiple cleaning cycles.

Throw half a powdered Tums tablet into your machine and run the clean machine cycle. White chalk would work as well. The Tums is nothing more than calcium carbonate, which will add hardness back to your water. Hopefully this will pull the soap out of wherever it's hiding and wash it down the drain.

I'm surprised at what people are referring to as "large" loads in recent discussions. They don't seem large to me.

DianePatterson, chlorine bleach will generate suds. Try it. Pour some water into a jar (1/2 full or so), shake it vigorously. Then add some bleach, shake again. My well water is ~11 grains hardness, I do not have a water softener. I get no suds on plain shaken water, but there are suds with bleach and they stick around for a while. What's the specific routine of your machine cleaning cycle? How many rinses follow the bleach bath? Is there a spin at the end (seems not per how the suds are left lying in the basket)?

dadoes.....I was thinking the same thing earlier. Before posting I went and got a mason jar. Filled 1/2 - full with RO water (2ppm TDS; softened first, then passes through RO system; in other words, dead-soft); added tablespoon of Clorox regular; covered and shook. No suds. Added another tablespoon, then another, shaking each time. No suds. Didn't post.

If you're getting suds with yours, I'm suspecting product difference.

Dianne...I am curious to know if the suds, in those pictures, that is left after running the clean cycle feels "slick"... like it is detergent?

I think it must be the brand of bleach I'm using, which is off-brand -- I just got a jar, filled it with some bleach and water, and shook really hard. Immediate suds. That makes me feel MUCH BETTER. (Well, except now I have to go buy Clorox bleach -- who knew off-brand was so different?)

Now I'm left with: am I using enough detergent with my wash? :) But I will experiment more with that to figure it out.

Another thing to consider: I just ran my clean cycle, and it ran water through the detergent drawer. Perhaps there's residual detergent in the drawer causing the suds.

dianepatterson....This is wonderful news!

Hey dadoes...GOOD call!

Astonished to learn this. I thought bleach was bleach. Wanting to make sure I had it right, I just repeated the experiment. Exactly same result....no suds. Repeating....Clorox Regular.

As long as you have that jar out, though, I'm going to suggest one more thing before moving ahead. Make sure the jar is absolutely clean, then fill 1/2-way with water and nothing else, then shake that. Should be no suds. This has been so aggravating, I'm just wanting to make sure there's no sudsing agent in the incoming water all by itself.

You will still have to clean that machine out, though. Run another cycle with NOTHING in there. Surely it's seen enough bleach for a while! I would expect third fill/drain clear as #3 in video.

No, I clean out the detergent drawer every month (hasn't seemed to need it, but I do it anyhow). I only ever put detergent in in the regular receptacle, have never used the "Extra" compartment. I never use fabric softener.

I am now convinced it's the kind of bleach I'm using. I'm going to buy some Clorox and see if there's a big difference. (I'll probably run the CM cycle next month...after running it a couple of times this weekend my machine is quite clean.)

@dianepatterson - you still also might want to only use 1/2 capful of Vaska, given that your water is soft.

I hope you can get rid of the suds and that the new bleach will help. Please come back and let us know if the Clorox helps.

I'm not sure if this is any help with regard to detergent dosing, but I thought I'd share... my Asko washer was a 1.75-2.0 cuft machine (DOE capacity) rated at 5.0 kg. Detergent recommendation for soft water was 1-1.5 TBS. Miele W4842 is 3.07 cuft (DOE capacity) rated at 8.0 kg. Using both kg and volume ratings, the W4842 has about 1.5-1.6x the capacity of my Asko W6761. Therefore, it's logical to assume that the Miele would require 1.5-1.6x as much detergent, right? So that would end up being 1.5-2.5 TBS depending on soiling.

Asko recommends 2-3 TBS for its XXL size washers (4.5 cuft IEC capacity compared to Miele's 4.0 cuft IEC rating).

I'm with everybody else. Please come back again once this issue has been put to bed and tell us how things are going.

@ dianepatterson

I HAVE GREAT NEWS FOR YOU! You have a whole house water softener just as I do, so I decided to run the clean machine cycle and see what happens. Guess what? I have tons of suds too! I ran the cycle 10 times in the last two days and still TONS of suds towards the end. Two out of those 10 times I added 1/4 cup of Cascade Complete, which showed no suds, but then running a clean machine cycle with plain water right afterwards yielded suds! What gives?

So here's my experiment... I agitated my softened tap cold water in some tupperware and I had no suds. Oh dear, this doesn't look good... maybe I have a ton of buildup in my machine. Yikes! But the weird thing is that if I run just a rinse cycle, not clean machine cycle, I don't get any suds! WTF? Then it hit me... rinse cycles are COLD and clean machine uses HOT water and raises the temp to 158F. The water I was agitating in the tupperware was COLD. I popped it into the microwave for about 1 minute to raise the temp to scalding, then agitated again in my tupperware. Guess what happened? SUDS! But only in hot water, not cold.

Agitating softened hot water created so many bubbles and suds in the tupperware that it blew the top right off and left my kitchen counter (and me) covered in water. I repeated the experiment, this time in a tall, uncovered plastic pitcher. I shook the water violently back and forth and got the same exact suds and bubbles as in my machine.

Diane, I don't think you are experiencing residue. I think you and I both are seeing the effects of agitation on hot, softened water. Try this experiment at home, but make sure you are using scalding HOT water. You will see suds and bubbles too. Suds are not always a sign of build-up or residue, sometimes it can just be an aspect to your water chemistry.

You and I can be running the clean machine cycle until the earth freezes over, but we will still see suds. For folks with water softeners, suds in the clean machine cycle may be a false indicator. I bypassed my softener for one run of the cycle and guess what? No suds. In my case the cause is pretty clear, I hope it is in your case as well.

sshrivastava....

"I think you and I both are seeing the effects of agitation on hot, softened water."

I disagree. I believe you have issues that you haven't been aware of until now.

Upon reading your incredible post, I repeated my own experiment so as to be able to reply directly to what you wrote. Experiment exactly as before except for using 160F water in the mason jar. (microwaved and measured) No suds. That's exactly the same as before with room-temperature water.

Repeating procedure for your convenience.......my household supply through softener (zero grains) then through RO emerging at 2ppm TDS. That's about 1/2 a hair from distilled. That's about as "soft" as it gets. Used clean Mason jar and filled 1/2 way. Shook it up cold. No suds. Heated and measured at 160F and shook that up. No suds. Reheated to 160F and added one tablespoon of Clorox Regular and shook that up. No suds. Added one, then two more tablespoons Clorox Regular and shook that up. No suds.

I think it's clear that you do, indeed, have residual soap -- or some suds-generating material -- left over in there. I don't get this stuff you make up to explain it otherwise.

Okay, this is interesting. I may have to run this experiment again (or open a new bottle of bleach, or something), because...it turns out the bleach I was using for the CM cycle WAS Clorox. I thought it was the off-brand, because whenever I opened the cabinet I was looking at the off-brand, but only when I ran this experiment (and put the bottle of bleach behind the mason jar) did I notice which one was which.

These are the suds I got:

So the extremely Clean Machine suds were from Clorox, NOT the drugstore brand.

(For these tests, I probably did 25% Clorox and 75% water. So there's a couple fluid ounces of bleach in those jars, not just the tablespoon Asolo used.)

My family has lovingly gifted me with some extremely dirty clothing, so I think I will run the CM cycle again tomorrow. I will use the off-brand this time and see if there's a big difference.

Very interesting. The mystery persists!!

Did you shake the jar with just water -- no bleach or anything else -- first?

This is making me nuts. I think before the night is over I'll do your 25/75 mix and report back.

This isn't making any sense at all to me.

dianepatterson & sshrivastava.....

OK, here 'tis...diane's way.......

Same as before except 1 1/2 cups water; 1/2 cup Clorox Regular bleach; (that's your 25% bleach solution) heated to 165F; shaken vigorously. No suds.

At this point, about all I can say is there's something going on at your locations that isn't going on here. I continue to suspect residual something at your locations. Don't know. I'm out of gas.

Clorox makes a bleach for HE machines? Huh? How can bleach be specific for HE?? Maybe there is something up with their regular product.

I noticed both regular and HE bleach from Clorox contains washing soda.

Is this normal for bleach or unique to Clorox?

Here is a link that might be useful: Clorox Bleach - HE

I am absolutely gobsmacked. I never would have guessed Clorox had all those ingredients.

As for water quality, I have an interesting story that sort of pertains to this situation. Eighteen months ago I had a sewing project where I used a water-soluble thread (on purpose). Upon finishing, the thread is supposed to dissolve when the project is wet, except it did not. It drew up and caused the project to pucker. Horribly. Ruined it. The thread developed the consistency of nylon thread. Soaked that stuff overnight in HOT water in the old TL washer. It *never* dissolved. I cut some of the thread off the spool and it never even dissolved in a cup of water---it shrank and shriveled up instead.

I took the same spool of thread, cut some off, and put it into a cup of water in the city six miles away, that has a different municipal water source, and the thread dissolved. In a couple of minutes. There is no explaining it.

So,,, I am not surprised that @asolo's Clorox & soft water don't suds up, while @'stava and @dianepatterson's do. The basic water one is dealing with can have bizarre results. Truth is often stranger than fiction.

Point 1: There are no absolutes in the laundry environment (or the dishwashing environment). As I've said several times previously in regards to both clothes washing and dishwashing, local water conditions are a crucial and variable factor.

Point 2: Methinks folks are getting overly worked into a lather over sudsing, foaming, bubbles ... whichever. :-)

BTW, the bleach I used for my shake-the-jar-of-water-sudsing-test is Wal-Mart Great Value Rain Scent, and it's labeled HE ... which I believe is largely a marketing tool in regards to some (NOT ALL) types of products. The suds level I attained was more than DianePatterson's first picture but much less than the second picture.

Diane....OK....one more time.....CLOROX REGULAR.

Your photo shows you're using Clorox Splashless....which is not the same product.

Suggest get yourself a bottle Clorox Regular and a bottle of distilled water. (That's as "soft" as water gets) That will put absolute control on both items in question. Put 'em together in a mason jar, shake 'em up, and tell us what you get.

Here is a link that might be useful: This one

Oh. Interesting. I didn't know they were separate products. I thought the "splashless" referred to the bottle design.

You know I love you.......but I'm banging my head on the desk. : )

Distilled water plus Clorox Regular plus agitation = no suds.

Dadoes and Cavimum may be on to something. Maybe incoming water quality issue at your location. Clearly there is a reactive substance someplace in your mix. Clorox Regular isn't it.

Man, I need to get a life.

@ asolo

No, there is no build-up in my machine. As I said in my post, I get the same suds if I agitate plain soft, hot tap water in a pitcher. This has nothing to do with my machine - it's water out of the tap and right into a clean, rinsed pitcher. Same suds as in my machine. So why should I presume my machine has residual detergent build-up when I replicated the sudsing away from the machine simply by shaking a pitcher of hot water? Combined with the fact that I ran 10 CM cycles, two with a heavy dose of Cascade, I'm confident that my machine is clean as a whistle. The Miele CM cycle creates a lot of turbulence and injects a ton of air into the water, so the water in my machine is being agitated far, far more intensely than in my pitcher experiment.

I realize when you do the same thing you don't see suds, but you also don't live here in Arizona and have the same water that we do. Our water hardness varies between 15-30 degrees, but usually averages around 25. After softening, my water contains 445 mg/l of sodium carbonate or potassium carbonate, depending on what type of salt is being used to regenerate the softener. Would 445 mg/l of washing soda be enough to cause sudsing if the water is heated? Apparently.

Asolo, you have altered the parameters of my experiment by using softened water through your RO system. Your RO is removing all of the sodium carbonate produced by the ion exchange in your softener, so your experiment is not the same as mine. I did not run my water through an RO system, therefore no TDS were removed from the water in my experiment. That's a huge difference.

I'm satisfied that the issue I'm observing has everything to do with my water chemistry and absolutely nothing to do with detergent build-up. In my case the suds are a false indicator, and I bet they are in Diane's case as well.

With respect, you assume knowledge you don't own.

I, too, live in Arizona. My water, certainly, is the same or nearly the same as yours. My experiments done with unsoftened supply, (about 9-10 grains), softened, and softened plus RO processing. Agitated with water alone, then added Clorox Regular and repeated. Same result with all, hot or cold. The latest experiment done with purchased distilled water to remove all variables. Same result. No suds.

The agitation within the sealed 1/2-ful mason jar is quite obviously much more intense than anything the washing machine is capable of.

I said "Clearly there is a reactive substance someplace in your mix." There is. May well be in the chemistry of your incoming water. Don't know. Do know that there's something in there. That's all I said.

If you get suds by agitating plain water with nothing in it, that's probably your answer. However, "plain water with nothing in it" will not produce suds. There's something in there.

@ asolo

Where do you live? If you have 9-10 grains of hardness, you don't get the same water I do. I live in Buckeye. I measured my incoming hardness yesterday at 18 dH. That figure fluctuates up to 35 dH, but I've seen it as low as 15 dH. I have determined that in my case, it's not a build-up issue. The larger lesson here is that seeing suds in your machine does not always equate to residue or build-up. If I hadn't isolated water as the cause, I probably would have drastically reduced my detergent usage which would have led to other issues down the road.

Undoubtedly many folks jump to the wrong conclusion when they see suds. Just as you did early on when you stated that you believed this to be a residue/detergent issue, which it quite clearly is not. You based that assumption on seeing suds. You see suds at the beach, too, but the ocean is not filled with Tide! :) haha

Asolo, I also re-read one of your earlier posts and I certainly hope I'm misunderstanding your statement "I don't get this stuff you make up to explain it otherwise." I did not "make up" anything. I performed a simple experiment that illustrated that my suds are not caused by detergent build-up or residue. Where did I "make up" anything?

"....many folks jump to the wrong conclusion when they see suds. Just as you did early on when you stated that you believed this to be a residue/detergent issue, which it quite clearly is not."

Oh, for heavens sake sshrivastava! Look at the photograph! That isn't beach-foam! And it isn't plain, uncontaminated water after being agitated. There's something in there. I don't know why you're being so resistant to the obvious.

And I'll tell you something else: If you're saying your own household water supply sudses up like that without anything being added to it, you've got troubles that go way beyond laundry concerns. And if you say it doesn't concern you, I suggest that it should.

Regardless, this has gone on long enough IMHO. I'm done.

FWIW, I ran a clean machine yesterday with bleach (since Dr. Oz freaked me out re: Ecoli and Staph - ewe). I usually use Smelly Washer.

Very minimal suds - hardly any.

Although when the cycle was finished the machine smelled like bleach so I ran a second clean machine with Smelly Washer.

Oh ... so clean and sparkly.

Our water is mildy hard. 8.7 Grains/Imp gallon.

"FWIW, I ran a clean machine yesterday with bleach (since Dr. Oz freaked me out re: Ecoli and Staph - ewe). I usually use Smelly Washer."

Don't worry about them. The more you expose yourself to germs the better your body's immune system will be. And that's a good thing. IMHO we've become a society of germophobes.. Sanitize this, use this hand sanitize junk, etc. Build your natural defenses and skip most of the sanitizers.

@itguy08, are you familiar with Ecoli and Staph?? I don't think you just "build natural defences" against them.

You did read the news about the Ecoli outbreak in Germany that has killed several people??

We're not talking about the flu here ...

There's a difference in ingesting large quantities of them in food and having a few weak stray ones on your clothes.

You do know you have e.coli in your body, right? It's in your GI tract.

From http://familydoctor.org/online/famdocen/home/common/digestive/disorders/242.html

"Most E. coli infections come from:

Eating undercooked ground beef (the inside is pink)
Drinking contaminated (impure) water
Drinking unpasteurized (raw) milk
Working with cattle"

Notice infected laundry is not on the list...

Staph is usually transmitted from open wounds in a public setting. Or by bad food. Or by sharing towels and such without laundering them.

Again, I wouldn't worry about it. You are exposed to all sorts of germs including E.Coli, and Staph on a daily basis. For the most part your body takes care of them. Cook your food and wash your veggies well and you will be fine.

I'm not a germ phobe by any stretch buy I still feel better cleaning out my machine once a month with bleach. It certainly can't hurt.

And yes, I am aware of where Ecoli comes from. It obviously gets into our machines from our laundry.

@ dianepatterson

Have you made any new discoveries in your quest to diagnose your sudsing issues? I'm also curious if you tried agitating a jar of hot, conditioned tap water? Compare the suds level when running an empty rinse cycle versus the clean machine cycle. Also, if you are seeing suds after running the cycle a few times without bleach, all of the bleach has been washed away and something else is causing the suds. I still suspect an external cause, unlikely to have anything to do with the machine or the products you put into it.

Bypass your water softener and run the cycle again without bleach. I will bet you dollars to donuts that you won't see many suds.

Stumbled across this item while surfing this morning. Just as so many laundry mavens here are pulling their hair out about sudsing problems, here's the latest feature from Samsung....copied/pasted from their site.....the site that advertises on this forum.....on this thread:

"PowerFoam� Technology for foam you can see, clean you can feel
PowerFoam� is an exclusive Samsung technology that creates a deep-cleaning foam that�s gentle on fabrics. PowerFoam� washers fill the drum with foam � created from HE detergent, water, and air � during the wash cycle. Foam penetrates fabrics more deeply, thoroughly and up to 40 times faster* than detergent in conventional washers so you can confidently wash large and bulky loads like king-size comforters.
*Based on tests using AHAM HLW-I-2007 detergent standards."

Here is a link that might be useful: Samsung foam

Stupidest feature ever imagined. This machine is designed for people who must see suds to know their detergent is working. Great marketing, useless feature. The detergent market is finally producing some great low-sudsing products which now Samsung will infuse with a bazillion suds. Those who think Tide HE creates suds, wait until you try Tide in your new Samsung SudsMaker!

Diane... yoohoo... have you made any progress on figuring out the suds?

Before I begin each week's set of washings, I put in a small amount of water and let the machine empty it out. I do that twice. This makes sure that any residual water sitting in the washer for the past week is flushed out before I begin washing. After the last washing, I may or may not put a little water in to flush out any residual spin-dry water.

I have a Samsung with "Power Foam" dumb I agree. But it was there. I have had FL machines for years, my older machines produce more suds than with the new Samsung. I have yet to see this magical power foam!

I use only HE powder detergents, no softener. I use Techno Fresh about every 2 weeks. I had a stinky washer and never ever want to go back to that.

Sorry for the long absence! (Summer seems to have happened.)

I finally ran a Clean Machine cycle with the basic Clorox, not splash-less, not Clorox 2, just Clorox...

Of course, I forgot to check on the machine mid-cycle. (rolling eyes) At the end, however, when I opened the washer door, there was a just a tiny handful of suds at the back of the machine. (Not even a full cup's worth. I did not bother scooping it out.) This is significantly different than I had experienced in previous cycles! So I think it was the bleach (obviously).

Does everyone else have any suds left at the end?

I never have suds left at the end of a Clean Machine cycle yet, on my W4842. You may want to run it through another Clean Machine cycle, for good measure, and possibly use no or very little Clorox.

This topic has been very educational for me. I appreciate all the posts and information shared. I never have bought the "splash-less" type of Clorox --- never even paid attention to labels but fortunately I have the correct type -- and now I know that I never will buy the splash-less version.

Should be no suds in the drum at the end.

If there are still a few bubbles observed during the last slosh, they should be so few and so dilute that they disappear into outer drum during draining leaving NOTHING observable in/on the inner drum.

It's a matter of degrees. We don't always get perfect. What you started with was really significant amount of leftovers. Apparently better, now. Still, you shouldn't have anything left at the end.

Yes, I have a very small amount of leftover suds as well.