HI Larsi! Hope you will love your new "green" laundry products. looking forward to reading your views on Ms. Myers and Ecover softener. I have Ecover's Morning Fresh. What do you think of the 7th Gen detergent? The scent sounds awesome, but I haven't come across it yet.

Soon you will know what I and others mean about the"waxy" feel of downy after you've had a few loads to get rid of the excess old products.

Cheers!

I tried Ecover softener in the past and it was like using nothing at all. The softening was minimal at best. The same can be said for Vaska Herbasoft, which only appears to have a beneficial effect if used in conjunction with Vaska Herbatergent. I've tried using Vaska Herbasoft with a load washed in Tide - very little softening.

The only "natural" or "green" product that did a decent job softening my clothes was Seventh Generation, which softened nearly as well as Downy.

Good for you Larsi! We all have to make decisions we are happy with. I thought for sure you'd go with the other Ecover one (pink cap). I'm going to try the pink cap one (maybe even go get some today).

Some people don't care what's in the stuff they use.

As I said on another thread, I think people have a right to know what's in the stuff they use so they can make informed choices.

Unfortunately the big companies don't really want you to know (and for good reason).

Companies want sell you genetically modified food without telling you. They want to sell you cloned meat without telling you. Don't get me going ... If you haven't seen Food Inc. - you should watch it. Very eye opening.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eKYyD14d_0

The problem is consumers are happy just sitting back and assuming if "they" sell it to us, it must be safe. It's a good thing when, as consumers, we start questioning and putting responsibility back on manufacturers. That's how change happens. We vote with our dollars.

The US is currently trying to pass a law that will require every product to have a full list of ingredients. They are currently only expected to list ingredients with immediate harm.

I found this organization the other day. Very good information on why TSCA does not work and what people are trying to do to fix it.

An excerpt:
Americans assume that chemicals used to make ordinary products are tested for safety - but they are not. From baby bottles made with bisphenol A (BPA) to carpets containing formaldehyde, dangerous chemicals are in our homes, places of work, and the products we use every day. With each new scientific report linking toxic chemical exposure to a serious health problem, it becomes more obvious that the law intended to keep harmful chemicals in check - the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) of 1976 - is not working.

Off my soap box now (no pun intended). :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Safer Chemicals.org

Just curious larsi: if you are grossed out by "liquid animal fat" I am wondering if you know what soap, Jell-O, pet food, most cosmetics (makeup, lipstick) and many personal hygiene products, margarine, shortening (as well as many baking products) etc. are all made out of?

Look for these key words (I know there are others, but these are the ones I recall off the top of my head): Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Myristic Acid, Oleic Acid and Palmitic Acid. All come from rendered animal parts.

Not trying to change your mind, but some folks seem to have singled out LFS as horrible because of this ingredient, but I think most don't even realize their bathrooms, kitchens and even their dinner tables are loaded with products made from tallow.

Thanks for the responses Dudleyfudd, Sstava, Covingtoncat and Livebetter!

I tried Vaska Herbasoft and HATED it. No softening, and to me, I smelled fish. Ick!!

I have tried Ecover (pink cap) in the past, and felt it did very little softening, but the smell was pleasant. I bought the yellow cap Ecover, since they only had one bottle on the shelf, but lots of pink cap ones. I figured, maybe everyone wants Sunny day (yellow cap) & that's why there is only one left :)

I've done 2 loads of laundry this am, both with Clorox Green Works detergent. One with Ecover FS and the other with Mrs. Meyer's Geranium FS. They both actually felt pretty soft, I was very happily surprised. Mrs. Meyer's for sure has more scent, but you could tell in the bottle, that Mrs. M was more fragranced than Ecover. I actually think Ecover might soften a bit more than Mrs. M.

Vernel by Henkel works VERY well, but since it works so well, I have a feeling it contains the basic animal fat ingredients that Downy/Snuggle/Purex/Suavitel have! Any one have the scoop on Vernel? Ingredients, any "green" credentials?

Ok...Larsi is off to do some more "green" laundering!!! ;)

dudleyfuddpucker, I'm not sure your comments are entirely accurate. It appears that some of these "key words" you list can come from animal or vegetable sources.

One example:

Oleic acid is a monounsaturated fatty acid found naturally in many plant sources and in animal products. It is an omega-nine fatty acid, and considered one of the healthier sources of fat in the diet. It's commonly used as a replacement for animal fat sources that are high in saturated fat. You may find various butter and egg substitutes made with high levels of oleic acid.

As a fat, oleic acid is one of the better ones to consume. As a replacement for other saturated fats, it can lower total cholesterol level and raise levels of high-density lipoproteins (HDLs) while lowering low-density lipoproteins (LDLs), also known as the "bad" cholesterol. Usually switching to an oil high in oleic acid is not difficult since there are numerous sources available.

One of the chief sources of oleic acid in foods is olive oil, perhaps one of the tastiest cooking oils. Canola and grapeseed oil are also excellent choices when you are looking to supplement the diet with oleic acid, since they are naturally high in this fat. In addition to being used as cooking oil, oleic acid is part of a number of products. It is often used to make soap and is present in a number of cosmetics.

Just because it's "everywhere" doesn't make it acceptable, nor does it mean we shouldn't try to find better methods.

@larsi - I also noticed the slightly fishy smell of Vaska Herbasoft, but only on one particular set of towels and nothing else. Everything else smells like wonderful lavender. How weird!

Despite an earlier rant of mine about not being totally happy with Vaska's cleaning ability, I have caved in and made Vaska my "go to" detergent for most items. The reason is simple. Vaska makes my clothes feel like they are brand new. They just feel so soft and wonderful, without any stiffness or residue issues. To me that's worth a lot. Colors pop more after using Vaska even though it does not contain any OBAs.

When I need more heavy duty cleaning I may lean on the Green Works, which has enzymes, or Tide HE w/ Bleach liquid for especially challenging items such as garage rags, pet bedding, or faded whites. If you go online and compare the ingredients between Green Works and Seventh Generation's new 4x concentrate, you'll see many of the same ingredients. Makes you wonder who is making what for whom, doesn't it?

livebetter, unless the fatty acid ingredient in the bottle you hold in your hand specifically says "derived from plants" you can rest assured that what I said is quite accurate.

Fortunately I have an interesting line of work when I have spent more than 30 years consulting for just about every kind of industry you can imagine around the planet, and most you never heard of. The acids in question can all be made from animal or plant products, but (as noted) unless it says so *on the bottle* it's from an animal. Why? Cost, of course, why else? Tallow is a fraction of the cost of plant-based oils.

Given that, one could easily make the argument that an animal-derived fatty acid is no more or less "clean" or "green" than a plant-based one. Both are organic oils derived from living, biodegradeable things. The only real difference is the mental aspect. Once you get into that though it is purely an emotional, subjective issue, and therefore one that is senseless to argue.

sshrivastava, interesting your comment about colors "popping". I too feel they "pop" when washed with Vaska. I thought maybe it was in my head. Good to know I'm not alone ;)

I use Vaska for all my laundry (separate from all the guys in my house). I also find things just feel great when washed with it. My things are never stained so I think it cleans just fine. I love how things feel and smell when washed with Vaska.

Now if I could only get it to Canada again ...

I read this on-line and thought it fit with our comments:

Julia Fry has been working with textiles for years: first as an interior and fashion designer, and now as the founder of an herbal-based laundry detergent company. Her knowledge of fabrics and how they respond to conventional laundry detergents led her to search out the healthiest, most environmentally friendly, and most effective natural laundry solution to keep her textiles looking and feeling great. In 1999, working with environmental chemists, she created a highly effective herbal formula called Vaska and opened an "herbal gourmet" laundry store in Berkeley, California.

Steadily Growing

Now Vaska markets to the hospital industry, large industrial laundries, and household consumers. Their safe-yet-powerful detergents keeps linens and clothing fresh and free of residue. The top 150 luxury hotels in San Francisco are using Vaska to wash their linens, and the San Francisco Giants use Vaska for all their uniforms and towels.

In July, 2008, six Vaska products received the EPA's Design for the Environment (DfE) approval, awarded to products that protect the environment and are safer to use. Later on in 2008, Vaska was named a 'Champion' (the highest level possible) of Safer Detergent Stewardship Initiative from the EPA.

Why It's Different

What makes this detergent different from other brands (conventional and green formulas alike) is that Vaska relies on active herbs to clean, resulting in softer clothes, less color fading, and longer life of the fabric. In a wash-off against other leading brands certified by the Association of Linen Management, Vaska removed eight common household stains (including ketchup, red wine, grass, and lipstick) more effectively than all of its competitors. It's also safe to use in gray water or septic tank systems as the resulting waste is completely harmless to plants and animals.

Vaska's Herbatergent has quite a few benefits:

- Hypo-allergenic - ideal for babies and people with sensitive skin
- Safe on colors and all natural and synthetic washable fabrics
- Softens fabrics naturally
- Extends fabric life - no chemical damage, less lint
- Reduces static electricity
- Fresh, natural lavender fragrance (Light Lavender only)
- 2x concentrated
- Biodegradable
- Graywater and septic tank safe
- Formulated for high-efficiency (HE) and standard washers
- Not tested on animals

Jello is delicious, margarine's OK and a bit of lippy can really perk you up but I don't spread any of them on my clothes. To each his own but it's the idea of marinating your clothes in animal fat that is gross to me not the fact that it is animal fat. It just seems so unnecessary. I hope the new products work well (depending on how fond you are of your family the good\bad news is they may also be a good deal less flammable after the switch).

LOL Caryscott! Sometimes being less flammable, is for me, not desireable for my dear spouse, mother in law and my grandmother. There are many times, I'd like to have them all in polyester pant suits, drenched in April Fresh Downy! Oops, did I drop a candle on you? LOL ha ha ha

Yes, I too like Jello. Margarine has it's purpose sometimes and many, many women need some major lipstick and heavy makeup :) I too ,100% agree with you. Using animal by products or eating meat does not bother me, it is how you loving referred to it as "marinating your clothes in animal fat". That is gross, just so gross!!!

Try this: henkelconsumerinfo.com

All the information on Henkel products is there. But... only in German, which isn't a problem for you, IIRC.

Alex

Thanks Whirpool!

it seems that Vernel is animal based, but the chemicals used are as "earth friendly" as possible!!

BUT...our "new" Purex Crystals for the USA (by Henkel), are just Vernel re-packaged. The bottle and lid is even the same!!!! Purex Crystals are about 90% natural, so much, much more so than std. liquid softeners!!

http://www.vernel.de/produkte/crystals/

@ Larsi.....Im launghing my butt off here at your polyester comment! I need to remember that for my own household.

I never knew what was in downy, and if they still made the good ol april fresh, Id still be using it now, even if it is bases on animal fat. It not like its unsanitary, and for 45years, it hasnt hurt me. Im more concerned about eating the fat, than having it on my clothes, now that can be unhealthy

I loved Downy for years, thought it was the best smelling stuff on earth. I used to open the bottle just to take a whiff. In the last year or two the smell just got funky and I had to stop using it. I don't know if it is that the FS are so concentrated or if the companies are trying to make the scent last longer but whatever they did was awful!!!! And I can smell it on other people, it's almost as bad to me as cigarette smoke smell. The other day at work I looked at someone and said "You use Snuggle don't you?" needless to say they were surprised I could smell it.

After using a variety of natural and green fabric softeners for the last year or so, I've come back to my unscented Downy. Nothing, and I mean nothing softens as nicely as Downy Free & Sensitive. The best part... no scent! If you compare the feel of Downy Free & Sensitive to its scented brethren, you will notice that the unscented variety does not feel waxy or like it's coating the fabrics. I believe there is some ingredient in scented versions that causes it to feel waxier in order to make the scent linger.

My 2nd choice for softening is the Vaska Herbasoft in Lavender. Vaska's softener is particularly effective when used after washing in Vaska Herbatergent. The two complement each other very well. Downy is still the more effective softener, in my opinion, especially if you are going to wash in stronger detergents like Tide.

@Sstava...

While I do not use the Downy Free, I have been back to Donwy for a while now. I really, really wanted to only use "green" fabric softeners, but NONE of them worked as well as Downy. I also have just been using a splash, and then filling the rest of the FS compartment with water..and the softening is just as good as using a whole or 1/2 cap. Another side benefit, is that the FS compartment stays very clean and the "New" April Fresh Downy scent (that I am not a big fan of) almost smells like the old, original Downy when I use a small amount mixed with water.

In Sept, my family is bringing me 5-6 different Vernel and Lenor softeners from Germany, along with lots of different detergents to try. September is going to be like Christmas for me :)

I REALLY want someone on this forum (besides me) to try the Shaklee fabric softener. I really want someone to compare notes with ... sigh.

I was a Downy free user exclusively before I switched to the Shaklee. While it's not "quite" as soft as Downy ... it IS soft and the smell is wonderfully fresh.

No other "green" fabric softener has lived up to it.

From their website, "Here's a clean-smelling, silky fabric softener that reduces wrinkles and takes out static cling better than what you've probably been using. And thanks to the superconcentrated formula, you not only use less, but the container is small enough that you actually can hold it in your hand."

Here is a link that might be useful: Shaklee Soft Fabric Concentrate

"I REALLY want someone on this forum (besides me) to try the Shaklee fabric softener."

Paging @sshrivastava . . . paging @sshrivastava . . .

;o)

LOL !!!

You can't be an addict alone you know?? :)

I refuse to be an enabler... LOL

There is something wrong when I can't convince "this group" to try something ... if it was available at the store you guys would. Oh well ... don't know what you're missing :)

I tried to order 2x from their Shaklee website, and both times the order failed to go thru. I also found their website odd and a little "strange". I wish it was in stores, because the write up is great. Maybe it's a Canadian only thing??

@Larsi, that can't be right.

Shaklee is a US company. I know the man who owns it now (Roger Barnett). I worked with a previous company of his (before he purchased Shaklee). He's a great guy.

Corporate Headquarters
4747 Willow Road
Pleasanton, CA 94588

To order please call 1-800-SHAKLEE

I am a member here in Canada as we use some of their nutritional products and some cleaning products. I also order for any of my friends/family who want it.

I just checked out the US site. Ordering seems pretty straight forward. You just check out as a guest (since you don't know a distributor or you are not a member).

What seems "strange" about the site to you?

I was in a rush earlier so wanted to come back and post a little more info.

Roger took a small US only printer in the US and turned it into the world leader in scented printing (think fragrance scent strips in magazines or in your department store bill). He started Beauty.com which he later sold to Drugstore.com.

He received his undergraduate degree from Yale College, his law degree from Yale Law School, and his MBA from Harvard Business School. I believe he speaks 5 languages fluently. Point is - he's an incredibly smart and talented guy.

He took 5 years off and searched for a company that he could really grow into a business for his kids to inherit. Hi son, Spencer, has asthma and he got involved with Shaklee to make improvements in how people live their lives. You can watch linked video of him and his wife (Sloan - who was the Assistant District Attorney of Manhattan) on Oprah.

For him, Shaklee was perfect. A business that could make money but also help many people earn a living and make them and the planet a better place.

I know multi level marketing companies get a bad rap (and some of them deserve it). I, myself, would probably not have tried the products but I saw them in person and just loved the packaging. When I went home to research the company and found out Roger was the owner, I didn't hesitate to try.

He and his wife are on the advisory board of Healthy Child Healthy World (as is Jeffrey Hollender ex head of Seventh Generation).

http://healthychild.org/about/who_we_are/C130/

I could list a litany of "good things" Shaklee does/has done. For one, they were the first company in the world to obtain Climate Neutral certification and totally offset their C02 emissions, resulting in a net zero impact on the environment.

Gwyneth Paltrow recently teamed up with Shaklee to donate a percentage of her cookbook (My Father's Daughter) sales to Shaklee Cares for disaster relief in Japan.

Anyway, I'm not trying to sell anyone on it (I've nothing to gain personally). I just wanted to give you a little background info to make it seem less "strange" to you :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Shaklee on Oprah Earth Day

Thanks Livebetter. It just reeked of Pyramid/multi level marketing.

Yes, the ordering seemed straight forward, but both times the order never went thru (I tried 2 different times, different days.

Roger sounds very commendable, and I have nothing against him..actually he sounds lovely. I guess I am just not into these "kinds" of companies. Too bad some stores, or Amazon.com does not sell the products!

Thanks for taking the time to inform be about the company. I appreciate it!! :)

Larsi

Ok, ok Livebetter....

It worked this time. I placed my order for a bottle of Shaklee Fabric softner, 100% based on your utter devotion and praise of this product.

I do not mind the $10 cost for the softener, but hated the $9.00 S&H fee. This is the BIG reason that I do not like to buy laundry products online! I think the shipping costs are crazy, compared to the cost of the actual item. BUT...I did this one FOR YOU!!! ;)

When it arrives, I will of course let you (and everyone else) know how I like it. I'm mentally prepping myself now, that it will not soften as well as Downy. Preparing myself not to be let down! LOL

OK ... well now I'm scared ... I sure hope you like it or I'll feel bad. Shaklee does have a 100% satisfaction guarantee so if not, I'm sure you can get a refund. I'll enjoy getting your opinion (FWIW).

I'm sure there are people in any multi level company that make things a little weird but Roger is such a great guy I don't even think about it. His philosophy was why should he make the Wal-Marts and the Targets richer when he could pay individual people.

He says there is a lot of misconception about the business of multi level marketing (which is different than a pyramid scheme). Unfortunately it's a big battle to get that message across to people because if you feel that way about it you're not likely to even want more information about it.

Anyway, to put more legitimacy on the products themselves (which is what matters to me) I can tell you a few more things about the company's products:

- "In an interview with Barbara Walters prior to his inauguration, President Barack Obama vowed to "green" the White House, including evaluating the mansion's energy efficiency and turning the lawn into an organic garden. In addition, to protect his oldest daughter Malia from asthma attacks, the President said he would select a natural, toxin-free line of cleaning products for The White House staff to use. Shaklee CEO Roger Barnett announced that The White House and the Vice President's residence (known as The Admiral's House) are now using the Shaklee Get Clean product line."

- Shaklee starts providing NASA with a customized rehydration beverage for use by Shuttle astronauts in 1993 and its use continues today

- "At Shaklee, we don't just stand behind our products we stand behind the people who use them. For 30 years our products have powered some of the most elite athletes in the world, including the Vancouver Games medal-winning U.S. Ski Team and U.S. Snowboarding." http://athletes.shaklee.com/us/en/

- sponsorship of three North Pole expeditions to measure the impact of global warming

- Shaklee cleaning products are used on board Jacques Cousteau's research vessels

I think you may receive the new version of the fabric softener (not yet here in Canada). I think mine does a good job so I hope the new version is even better.

"Now you can make that next load of laundry silky soft and clean-smelling with new, improved Get Clean Soft Fabric Concentrate. A special plant-based softener adds the cozy goodness your family will love and leaves clothes virtually static free."

Improved performance, just as effective as Snuggle and Suavitel in softness and static reduction.

Let me know if your bottle indicates it's new & improved.

I used Downy April Fresh for years, then tried Snuggle because it is so inexpensive (about $10) for a huge dispenser jug which lasts for months. It's just as good in my laundry as Downy ever was and the scent is very pleasant. I do use a half 'dose' and use white vinegar for the other half.

This isn't 'green' (it's blue, lol), but it saves me a lot of greenbacks!

Livebetter...

I am very curious as to why you love Shaklee Softener, but I have never heard you talk about their powdered or liquid detergent. I'm taking it, as they are bad!! LOL

Since I paid $9 for shipping, and Shaklee and myself are in California...I hope I get it quickly!! I am very anxious, excited to try it!! :)

@Larsi, I actually love the liquid detergent. They don't sell the powdered in Canada (I wish they did - it might solve my powder search dilemma).

Because I'm a junkie, I had sort of set it aside but all this Shaklee talk made me use it yesterday and I forgot how wonderful it smells. Very soapy smelling. I washed several sets of sheets with it and they smelled divine. When I was making the beds, I was thinking, "why haven't I used this in awhile??". LOL ...

FWIW, Domino magazine's Stephen Treffinger ranked the liquid best green detergent (and used the words "by far") once.

Thanks for getting me back to using it :)

I guess because there are several detergent options I can skip around but for me, only one fabric softener. If I didn't love Shaklee, I would probably go back to Downy Free. Glad there is a green option that works so well for me.

I hope you have good luck with it!!

@Larsi, I just realized something ... I should have told you to get this pump with your bottle (didn't know you would order so quickly).

It dispenses 1/4 oz with each pump so I don't measure ever. Just pump what I need.

I have one in my fabric softener and one in my liquid detergent. Very handy.

Here they are on my laundry sink (ooooo ... don't notice the dirty sink) ;)

{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: Get Clean 1/4-oz. Pump Dispenser

Livebetter! I did order so quickly...I was just excited the order went thru, for the 3rd time :)

The pump would be very handy, darn!! It's like the Method detergent (which I actually LOVE). If Method didn't use damned Optical Brighteners, it might be the best and easiest detergent to use. Their Fresh Air and Peony Blossom smell so great, remove stains and all odors..and SO convenient. I am just really using detergents now with NO optical brighteners...and as you well know, that really makes our options very, very slim!

For some reason, I had a feeling this Shaklee detergent would remind me of The Laundress, which I hate, hate, hate!! If I like the softener, maybe I will order a bottle of detergent. Although each day is getting closer to my BIG delivery of German goodies. Many, many bottles of Persil, Ariel, Dash, Aldi, Lenor and Vernel are arriving with family in mid September.

I'm frantically trying to use up my Cheer, Tide and Downy. It's like I walk around the house..."Oh yes, this rug needs washing, and this winter parka, and these beach towels that have been in the back of the closet for a year, and when someone comes over...Let me take your coat for you" (and put it in the washer). LOL :) he he he

Larsi,
I hope you've asked your relatives to get you the new Lenor detergent.....

Here is a link that might be useful: Lenor detergent

@rudin1969, that stuff looks like it has some serious fragrance in it - does it? Of course, I can't read German so have no idea what it says.

Lenor Detergent (P&G) is most likely VERY fragranced! I like some Lenor softener scents, but some (even for me!!) are just way to strong. Almost headache inducing!! :-o

@ larsiI'm frantically trying to use up my Cheer, Tide and Downy. It's like I walk around the house..."Oh yes, this rug needs washing, and this winter parka, and these beach towels that have been in the back of the closet for a year, and when someone comes over...Let me take your coat for you" (and put it in the washer). LOL :) he he heI do this too! Oh my gosh, is there a support group for people like us? Oh wait, this is it!