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... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Posted by hidroman (My Page) on
Thu, Mar 4, 10 at 9:42

I'm aware that who is used to a traditional toploader maybe needs a somewhat learning curve to get used to the proper measurement. Maybe one is so afraid of overdosing that goes too far away in the opposite way

Just *one* tablespoon ... so i checked here : "tablespoon" means the very same thing to all of us.

With a regular european podwer like Persil that is not enough even for this european half size washer (3 kg / 7 lb)

In a regular 24" machine ( 5.5 kg) with a *full load*, *light soil* and *soft water* Henkel reccommends 100 ml of regular Persil that are *five* tablespoons and 60 ml/cc = *three* tablespoons for "smurf" washers

True that Megaperls are a 2X product, but it's also true that the average american frontloader has a double capacity than the average european 24" machine.

Maybe I miss something i'm not aware,
maybe the Persil you get is a 2X version of the one I use.

Anyway be aware that if you don't use enough detegent your whites will turn grey within some month and unwashed grease will make a buildup in the outer tub. The most common symptom are tiny clumps of "chewy" grease all spread on just washed laundry


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I sometimes wonder as well whether the smelly washer issues we hear so much about are due to insufficient detergent use. I raised this same question in another post recently. I know there are some people out there who use 1-2 TBS in a 4.0 cuft front loader, which even to me seems very little. What confuses the issue even more is that detergent manufacturer recommendations are based on the load size and level of soiling, but they never tell us what machine and amount of clothes they used as a baseline.

Personally I don't believe using too much detergent by itself causes build-up. I think buildup begins with using too much fabric softener, since that is a very fatty substance prone to building up. Then everything else just piles on top of it, and using too little detergent allows additional buildup and possibly mold and mildew to take hold.

I am a little confused about how to reconcile the recommendations on the Persil box - 65 ml for very soft water and "normal" soiling level. This is 4.4 TBS. Wouldn't Persil, being a European manufacturer, base this recommendation on a 5-6kg load? If so, using Persil's numbers an 8 kg machine like the Miele W484X should take about 6 TBS. This is for soft water and average/normal soiling. Is it possible that Henkel overestimated the usage by a factor of SIX? Is Henkel such a greedy company that they want everyone to use SIX TIMES what is required?

I'm all about using the minimum amount that gets your clothes clean, but lately my colored clothing that I washed at 120F or less in my Asko started having this odd, mildewy smell. It started when I used some natural detergent products, went away briefly when I switched to Persil, but came back just before I installed the new Miele set. I don't want this to happen to the Miele.

Thoughts? Opinions?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

It started when I used some natural detergent products, went away briefly when I switched to Persil, but came back just before I installed the new Miele set.

I was told, by our Miele tech, that the natural detergents were what gunked-up our Miele W 4840 heating element. That is when Miele Washing Machine Descaler was used. Since it is citric acid, others here are simply buying bulk citric acid and using it (Miele's box is 8.5 oz). Also, I was recently told by a Miele tech to only use the cleaner every 3 to 4 four monthsnot every month. Also, to further clarify, we never had a mildew smell.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I had posted about the one tablespoon, and yes, that is what I was told by the authorized Bosch repairman, and that is what I do. My laundry comes out very clean. I use Mrs. Meyers Concentrated liquid in my wash, which I measure with a liquid tablespoon measure. I utilize the washers settings to clean the clothes, not just the soap. I also use Mrs. Meyers fbric softener, and I don't fill to the lines on the machine. My Bosch is 4 years old now and my first front loader, so I was very appreciative for the repairman's advice. Btw, no smell, no gooey build up anywhere, and I really don't baby the machine. I will occasionally (when cleaning the basement) run a microfiber cloth around the rubber gasket, but that is it for cleaning it out. I don't have to do anything with it, although I do think leaving the door open for a bit does help.

It was not my intention to ruffle anyone;s feathers here, I just wanted to get across that going to a FL instead of a TL will be different design of machine and requires changing how you do things. I've spent a lot of time in Europe and all the machines I've used there are FL's, and every time the homeowner has warned me to not use much soap as well.

That amount works in my machine. I am not saying it will work in EVERYONE's machine. I have never used Persil- so don't know what they recommend for their product. For the product I use, this is what was recommended for me. I have excellent results with my Bosch and the product I use, and just wanted to share that experience.

There is definitely a learning curve with these machines. Perhaps a call to a local repair shop may give the answers you are looking for?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

The way I see it, detergent manufacturers don't have an economic incentive to recommend too much detergent. It's just the opposite.

They aren't really selling "stuff", they're selling clean laundry, at a certain price per load. The ingredients cost them money, and so does the packaging and shipping. Why would they include 2X or 3X or 6X more ingredients than necessary to clean the advertised number of loads?

With all the variations in water chemistry and types of laundry, it's certainly possible that some people could use less than recommended amounts and still get good results. But it's misleading to say that everyone should use some tiny amount of detergent. Rather, it makes sense to start with the recommended amount for the particular formulation, and adjust up or down depending on your conditions.

oldhousegal, I'm not picking on you. This kind of recommendation is all over the net.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@suburbanmd, Miele tech told me two tablespoons or less with a lesser load. I do add a third when the load is in abundance. So I do gauge the load to the detergent. So far, the cleaning results have been excellent. As you and others have stated there are a myriad of conditions to take into account...that's one of the reasons I urge anyone with a Miele setup to tailor their washing/dryer programming to their specific situation.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Were you and he talking about a particular kind of detergent when he said two tablespoons? Without specifying the detergent, it's meaningless advice IMO. Yet the advice is almost always given that way.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent?

Persil and Miele detergents.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

People should really specify Megaperls or Persil regular when discussing amounts.

And preferably what is the hardwater count in your area.

Mine is 187. Very hard.

Thinking 2 tablespoons of Megaperls plus one of STPP?

For a regularly soiled mostly full load in a Bosch Vision 500 DLX.

Would that be a good starting point?


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Persil proper dosage

I've found these tips on persil.de ... it's in german, anyway not so hard to understand

Megaperls proper dosage

Persil regular powder proper dosage

weicht = soft
bitte immer = please always
mehr = more
weniger = less

be aware :

- 1 TBS = 20 ml

- these suggestion are referred to a full cotton load (4/5 of the drum) in a standard 24" machine, so you'd have to stick to "6-7 kg" *at least* if you actually mean "full load" normal cycle as 3/4 to 4/5 of the drum capacity/volume

- in case of prewash, the total amount of powder/megaperls is split into 1/3 to prewash compartement (I) and 2/3 to main wash compartement (II)

- half load = half amount. So "wrinkle free", which max load is half drum, requires half dosage than a full normal load.

The dosage for hand washing also gives a useful clue (10 litres are round 2,5 gal). Guess the big mieles use around 5 gal of water during the main wash of a full towel load

HTH


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I've found these tips on persil.de ... it's in german, anyway not so hard to understand

Thanks. That was useful.

Use google translation,although not perfect, makes it very easy to understand.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

My 4.00 cf LG, takes 2/3 to 3/4 of dry measuring cup of Persil Megaperls and my tiny euro washer 1.75 cf, 1/4 to 1/3 of the cup.
Have hard water.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I had asked the same question a month or two ago and the responses I got were very helpful. They reminded me that it depends on the type of detergent you use, the size of the load, hardness or your water, and the soil level.

I go by this rule of thumb. If I can see a little bit if suds, and the water feels slippery, implying the water has been softened sufficiently, I know my clothes will come out clean. It's trial and error for the most part.

I pretreat or presoak all heavily soiled garments. With Charlie's I use 1/2 to 1 tbsp with a booster like washing soda, borax, oxi, or STPP.

When I used Tide HE powder I used about a 1/4 of a cup for most loads with a booster, but if the stains were bad I used 1/2 cup and extra rinse.

The Cheer powder, which is not labeled HE, I used about 1 to 2 tbsp with a booster for the average load and 1/4 cup with booster for more soiled loads.

I tend to steer clear of liquids if I can as I find it's harder for me to really regulate the amounts combined with the soil level and boosters. I either ended up having to do a lot of extra rinses or my clothes didn't come out clean.

Hope this helps.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

For now I think I will use the recommendation on the box, which is 65 ml (4 TBS) for normal soiling and soft water. I will check the suds level and rinsability and adjust as needed. For very dirty/soiled loads Persil's recommendations go up to 7 TBS (2/5 cup) in soft water. So far washing in 4 TBS hasn't created any suds or rinsing issues on the one or two loads where I tried it, so perhaps it's not unreasonable after all. These recommendations for soft water are already almost half the recommended dose for "medium" hard water, so reducing the soft water recommendations even further seems risky.

I'll report back.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Here's some interesting information I obtained from the SDA (Soap and Detergent Association):

Q. My new HE washer uses considerably less water than my agitator washer. Should I use less detergent?
A. No you should not use less detergent in HE washers. Just as
with a traditional agitator washer, you will need to use the
recommended amount of HE detergent in an HE washer, based
on your load size. (For bleach recommendations, check the
HE washers use and care guide.)
If youre washing large or heavily-soiled loads, then you may need
to add additional HE detergent. The amount of detergent needed
for the best cleaning performance depends on the size and soil
level of the laundry load, not on the amount of water the
HE washing machine uses.

Q. Will I need to use less HE detergent if I wash a small load?
A. Yes. Just as with a regular detergent, HE detergent use
recommendations are based on "typical" wash conditions.
Follow the instructions on the detergent package and adjust the
detergent amount for conditions that are not typical. For example:
Use less detergent for small loads, lighter soiling or soft water.
Use more detergent for large loads, heavily-soiled laundry,
or hard water.

If you're a fan of conspiracy theories, you're probably thinking the SDA is saying this so their members can sell more detergent. The analytical among us might see a thread of truth to the SDA's recommendation because it does seem to make sense that amount of detergent has more to do with amount of clothes, therefore level of soiling, than the amount of water used in a machine. Elsewhere in the SDA's pamphlet they stated that HE detergents have to suspend the same amount of soil as in a top-loader, but with considerably less water, which requires HE products be formulated for this purpose. Using less than recommended will allow for re-deposition of soil onto the clothes (and, by association, washer parts).


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

sshrivastava, this is basically what I do for 30 some years. It's no brainer. You need sufficient amount of detergent for the size of the load and amount of dirt/soil. And that's why, I would say, many people have problem w/smells. They don't use enough detergent. And some ( I witnessed myself),stuff the washer to the max,(never mind the luck of hot water),which again needs more soap and then twice as much rinsing!
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do laundry, just common sense.
I can see why some people are confused when it comes to those 2x,3x concentrated detergents, I didn't like them myself. And I don't like to experiment much or adding other chemicals, that's why I stuck w/good old Persil and mexican detergents. I think sticking to what works, guarantee best results. I know there are new detergents andI like to smell them too but I know better.
Other thing I found works for me. When I pretreat things for stains, I do not use detergent in prewash,just the main wash. There is no need for additional chemicals in prewash.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

The more I read about it, the more I'm confused. Miele tech told me that for my W4800 and soft water, I should use a tablespoon for normaly soiled full load. I add 1/2 of a cup of vinegar for rince and in three years, no bad smell. Most loads are done in Cold water. I'm actually trying to use more Persil Megaperl per load, just to see if it will take care of the stiffness of the towels. I've also set the washer to use the Max. Water Level and Allergia settings.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Anyone who uses Henkel Persil will most likely not have to fiddle with amounts or boosters. Lets be honest it's made better than detergents here in the US. I think more people would buy it, but the higher price tag scares people off. Then you have people like me who would be willing to pay a higher price to try it, but would be afraid of being stuck with an expensive detergent they may be allergic too.

It seems like those of us who either do use or have to use USA detergents seem to have to fiddle with stuff more as far as measurements go. Front Loaders have only just begun their popularity here in the USA so detergent manufacturers haven't caught up with other countries as far as quality and performance.

The reason I say this is after studying the ingredients in regular Tide Powder to Tide Powder HE they are almost identical except for one or two ingredients being moved around on the list and the addition of silicones to reduce sudsing. Comparing that to the ingredients in Henkel Persil, you can tell that the creators of Persil have taken much more time to develope their detergent to actually be effective in the unique atmosphere of a front loader.

Another factor I have noticed is other countries FLers are far more effective in my opinion compared to the ones coming out in the US. At least that is how it looks from watching videos and comparing.

My washer rinses for crud. I have to have it on the extra rinse setting for every single load. I have heard many others say the same about their various models here in the US.

Until US detergent manufacturers step up their game, or FLers here become better, anyone using a US detergent may have to fiddle with amounts and boosters.

These are just my opinions. Maybe after I use up my Charlie's I'll give the Persil a try.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

US-market FL's tend to have much shorter wash cycles than European models. US models often don't use their internal heater to best advantage, and the wash temperatures are sometimes "dumbed-down". European washers do boost the wash temperature as required, AFAIK. And their cycle names include the temperature, which leaves no room for dumbing-down. Those two factors, time and temperature, are enough to explain poorer performance from US FL's. Maybe hidroman can comment on US vs. European rinsing.

As for detergent, I can vouch that a US detergent can give good performance in an FL with European-style time and temperature. We use Sears Free powder in our Miele, with good results. Sure, recently I'm adding STPP to my washes, because it gives even better results (and I'm on a septic tank so I'm not adding phosphate to surface waters). But my wife continues to be satisfied with using just the Sears powder, no STPP or even oxygen bleach. And in our old agitator TL days, she was the one who insisted I spend the extra for Tide because it works better, so she definitely has standards for her laundry. Cheap (especially on sale) Sears powder gives us far better results in the Miele than Tide in the old TL.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

suburbanmd.I must defend my LG yet again. The temperature gets as high as it needs to be on my cycles. The sanitary was hard to measure b/c washer locks itself due to hot water. And when it comes to cycle lengh, it depends. The longest one is almost 3 hours.
I also have european made small fl that takes cold water only and heats it up all the way to 194 if needed.
Again lengh of the cycle depends but comparing it w/LG,it is about the same time for sanitary cycle. Going all the way to boiling takes little longer. However the small washer rinses better. But maybe if I used the fastest spin speed on LG, It could make a difference in rinsing (I should try it).I only use Med high speed. Maybe US fl are rinsing poorly b/c bigger is not always better. Combined w/ water efficiency and it doesn't work right.
Having septic too, phosphates didn't cause any problems yet. Persil of course is number one but Mexican Roma is as good if using hot water. Persil rinses better, Roma needs extra rinsing but it is not over sudsing. At least I don't have the problem but it could be b/c of the hard water. Many non HE detergents are low sudsing too and work well in fl. It depends on the water chemistry. I need to agree w/happymomof2kids on the detergent confusion thou too.
LG has a direct drive and the small one is belt driven. And that's where I can see the main difference. LG doesn't shake or walk and it's really quiet,the little one is noisy, it rattles, it sounds like jet taking off, walks and takes a little extra time to balance a load, specialy if it is heavier load. LG washes like a dream.
Maybe sometimes we get what we pay for but from experience using Miele in Europe, I honestly don't see a
reason why I would pay so much money for it. There are very good higher end machines on market w/heaters that will do as good job as Mieles even thou they are made in Korea or elswhere. I must say our LG model is one of them.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Happymom wrote : "Front Loaders have only just begun their popularity here in the USA so detergent manufacturers haven't caught up with other countries as far as quality and performance.
The reason I say this is after studying the ingredients in regular Tide Powder to Tide Powder HE they are almost identical except for one or two ingredients being moved around on the list and the addition of silicones to reduce sudsing. Comparing that to the ingredients in Henkel Persil, you can tell that the creators of Persil have taken much more time to develope their detergent to actually be effective in the unique atmosphere of a front loader."

Guess it is not just a question of know-how : check who are Henkel/Persil main competitors in Germany, in France, in Italy and in UK. Don't stick to names, scroll down and you'll see WHO is ...... however, as you can read, mold and mildew will arrive here soon (15C = 59F is the ultimate "trend" temp )

As for frontloaders sold in north America, I agree with Suburbanmd.

Czechchick note it's no matter of brand, cause here we have here basically the very same brands. The difference is that a "european" LG machine is "less in a hurry" and always uses the internal heater when required, no matter it's a cold fill only or a hot + cold fill model.

IMHO many frontloaders for the northamerican market are a cocktail of compromises. I'm aware these compromises have been made to compete with toploaders, anyway they remain compromises :

- bigger = bigger parts (e.g. bearing, shafts) = higher manufacturing costs ---> quality compromises made to dumb costs. Just compare same size and same brand residential vs commercial models. Bigger the size, bigger the price gap between commercial and residential

- faster. imho the best example: Electrolux machines, that have a max 21 minutes wash part of the cycle. *Maybe* it can work in a coin-op water-generous FL, not in a machine that also aims to be energy efficient and remove stains

- no internal heater . It makes sense in toploaders and in coin op "old style" water-generous frontloaders, not in a modern frontloader. No wonder "hot" often means just 105F

- 120 Volt ---> low wattage internal heaters. It goes against the aim to shorten cycle times. I know, everyone already have the old toploader 120V outlet ... but electric dryers, ovens, induction cooktops run on 240 Volt

- rinses : here we are all togheter on the same boat ... normal cycle is taylored to achieve the best euro efficiency ratings (energy use - wash performance - spin performance). Sadly there is not rinse performance rating yet, so manufacturers can fool around. However euro rinses are longer and many brands have extra rinses/higher levels options

Chzechchick wrote : "Maybe sometimes we get what we pay for but from experience using Miele in Europe, I honestly don't see a
reason why I would pay so much money for it. There are very good higher end machines on market w/heaters that will do as good job as Mieles even thou they are made in Korea or elswhere"

I could agree with you 25-30 years ago. Bosch/Siemens/Constructa and AEG had almost the same quality of Mieles. Even some italian makes - like Zanussi(Electrolux owned since 1984) - were quite reliable despite they were far cheaper. Today is no more true. Maybe they clean as well but can't expect they'll last so long as a miele. The bigger the corporation, the bigger the quality drop. In this new millennium E'lux brands (AEG and Zanussi) have had a severe quality drop, not to mention Whirlpool Europe. Note both of these corporates have many of their plants here in IT so I'm somewhat talking "against my own business". The odd thing is that here a basic miele machine is slightly cheaper than competitor top of line models

Forgive my curiosity ... which brand is your compact frontloader ?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

czechchick, the LG I got in September 2008 didn't act like yours, temperature-wise. LG customer service had indicated that it would, and backed off from that position when I told them it didn't. My best guess is that the design had changed recently, and customer service was inadvertently giving out old information. So I wonder if you'd be as happy with a new LG.

A long sanitary cycle is good to have, but it can't substitute for a long cycle at moderate temperature. Like, my socks need a good long wash because I walk on bare floors without shoes, but I don't want to risk the elastic by regularly washing them at sanitary temp. Very few American machines will tumble for an hour at warm temperature.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I've been enjoying my Miele W4842 for a couple of weeks now while using the recommended dose of Persil for soft water (3-4 TBS). On the last load, I pulled out a kitchen towel which I did not recognize - it looked exactly like one of my yellowing towels that I use, but this one was white! I also washed it at 140F instead of the usual 160F that I used for whites in my Asko. Many of my colored items are coming out much brighter and softer as well (using Megaperls Color). I have a whole house water softener loaded with potassium pellets.

For these same fabric items I had been using 1 TBS in my Asko. Either the amount of detergent wasn't enough to clean properly or the Miele is just better at cleaning. Even with 3-4 TBS in soft water, the detergent rinses away completely as witnessed by soft, fluffy clothes out of the dryer without any need for fabric softener and no suds in the clear rinse water. I do have higher water levels enabled and use the "sensitive" rinse option.

Everyone should use what works best for them, but I am shocked at what a difference more detergent makes in the cleanliness and brightness of my clothes. Also, Megaperls Color does not contain any brightening agents, so that's not the cause of the improved appearance of my clothes.

Of course, I could also just be crazy! lol


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Suburbanmd wrote : "A long sanitary cycle is good to have, but it can't substitute for a long cycle at moderate temperature. Like, my socks need a good long wash because I walk on bare floors without shoes, but I don't want to risk the elastic by regularly washing them at sanitary temp. Very few American machines will tumble for an hour at warm temperature"

As soon as most of the Northamericans consumers will have similar requirements, differences between "euro" and "american" machines will disappear

While the Wave Touch machines now have a 5 ---> 21 mins wash part of the cycle, other non american Electrolux machines have a Time Manager device to settle the wash part from 30 mins up to 140 mins, meaning from a short 45 mins full cycle up to a neverending 180 mins extended cycle.

Also be aware that Procter & Gamble european detergents (Ariel and Dash) are the main competitors of Henkel Persil, cause they perform as well

It is a question of proper times. Back in the eighties Zanussi-Electrolux made a frontloader with a somewhat kind of primordial fuzzy logic controls. It was a nice machine, but looked too much "rocket science" to the average consumers despite they were used to deal with hi-fi and remote controls. It has been a market flop. They had to wait till late nineties to release that kind of controls.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Suburbanmd, I just checked and my hot cycle-start to finish takes 1 hour 55 minutes w/ max time aded but without prewash. I can add extra washing time to every cycle. I do have custom program that I didn't even try yet, have no need for it. I know many washers don't have cycles this long. Friend of mine has some old fl without heater and her cycles are no more than 45 minutes. My model is LG TROMM 2496, three years old. I do have speed wash too but I usually use it as an extra rinse for full loads and heavy items like comforters w/ the spin speed lowered down.
I have the remote monitor option too but I don't need it.

Hidroman, my little washer is Supra WD combo, suposedly made in Japan or at least most of it and no longer in business. My papers do have manual and contact info for Japan. It is 220 V and it does fabulous job in cleaning and rinsing but it takes only 5-6 kg of laundry. Not big enough for 2 people and pets. It did have few repairs under warranty thou. I only use the washer part now, too long to dry things. And I found out that Edge star sells parts for it. Not sure if they took it over or Edge Star is compatible.
I know people say Mieles last long time but even if my LG set lasts only 6-8 years I still would be happy.I'd rather buy another new set knowing( and hoping) that I got newer technology. I only spend around 2600 hundred dollars, including 200 extra for extended warranty so I don't expect miracles.
I like many european detergents that are not available here in USA. It' a shame we can't get them here and whatever is here is expensive for most people. Mexican Ariel is decent too and cheap but it suds up more. They do have HE Ariel but I couldn't find it yet.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I'm one who has not used just one tablespoon of detergent -- ever. For one thing, I wash for a large family and always wash full loads. For another, I wash for kids/teens/DH who get some of their clothes really dirty. Our water is not soft; it is about halfway between soft and hard.

I measure according to size of wash load, soil level, and type of laundry I'm washing. For example, I use more detergent when washing very soiled socks and clothes than I do when washing sheets and other bedding, which are rarely dirty or stained.

Suburbanmd, have you tried soaking your socks for awhile, in order to get more cleaning power? This is a very easy, effective, and economical way to increase cleaning power when washing laundry.

It takes little time (I just put in laundry and detergent, let the washer agitate for at least 10-15 minutes, then push Pause if I want it to soak for more than 99 minutes -- the longest Soak cycle on my washer).

For me, this is very effective, as stains and embedded soil always come out when I soak laundry.

It is very economical, in that the washer is not running while the laundry soaks and I also do not need to use extra additives.

The only exception I can think of is that I do use baking soda when I wash white towels and stinky clothes, as it is a wonderful deodorizer and also softens the towels. Baking soda is ultra-cheap as compared to regular laundry products. I buy it in huge reclosable bags at a warehouse store and keep it in the laundry room.

When the soak water goes out, I don't add more detergent, as there is no rinse in the Soak cycle. I just run the laundry through the appropriate wash cycle. Everything comes out very clean every time.

If I am washing very soiled socks or other laundry, I typically press Pause and let them soak overnight, then wash them the next morning as described above.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Going on week three or four with my Miele W4842. I've increased detergent dosage from 1 TBS in my Asko to 4 TBS (~60 ml) in the Miele. So far everything is coming out brighter, cleaner, and fresher smelling. It's funny to me how I thought my Asko was cleaning really well until I got this new thing. Although, perhaps doubling the detergent dosage in my Asko would have yielded the same results.

I have a whole house water softener.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mara,with our 220 volt machines we don't need any guesswork to soak. We just push the soak option button with whatever cycle [click on the shoot to view better the control panel]. The machine fills, tumbles for 10/15 mins while heating up to 85F, then starts soaking. During the soak it makes a couple of reverse tumbles every 4 minutes . After a while (since 1/2 hour up to 2 hours) the machine will start heating and tumbling with the selected cycle pattern (cotton, perma.p. or delicate), so beginning the main wash .

Shivastava- sure, the mieles are effective because of their multiple speed tumbling patten. Anyway also ASKO machine are good performers, otherwise some laundry machinery manufacturers wouldn't rebadge them as their own smallest models


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I had mentioned a Soak Cycle, not a pre-soak cycle. Pre-soak can be helpful, too; I've had that on former washers. I like to be able to soak heavily soiled items overnight, so I wanted a bona fide soak cycle on my washer -- one reason I chose Maytag Bravos.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

My Bosch Nexxt has a 2-hour soak cycle that gives a slow tumble every couple of minutes and a spin (no rinse) at the end, and has been very useful with both kitchen and "dog" towels. No idea why more manufacturers don't include them... seems like it would be pretty cheap to do so.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mara,
the option Hidroman was talking about is a genuine soak cycle -- you can select anywhere between half an hour and 6 hours. My VZug also gives you the option of having the washer drain after the soak (up to 6 hours). The pre-soak is called 'pre-wash' in the Euro Mieles.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Miele W48XX models don't have a soak option. Maybe they felt the extended option makes it unnecessary. An extra 1/2 hour of tumbling (varies with cycle), along with heating if necessary, is perhaps as effective as much more time quiescently soaking.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

The "old" american W1966 has the soak option but is a 230 V machine

The euro series W15XX W16XX W17XX don't have, while all W3000 W4000 W5000 W6000 models have. I guess it has to do with the "the more you pay, the more you get" rule. As Rudin has pointed out TOL mieles can soak up to 6 hours with "fine tuning", while my BOL novotronic just 1/2 hr, 1 hr, 1 1/2 hr or 2 hr.

Anyway guess that 120 V american mieles actually don't have the soak option because of the 1200 W heater. The soak deletes the benefit of having a hot fill too, cause after the soak it would be the same as starting from a cold fill only

.... but it's also true Suburban's statement. I rarely use the soak option. The wash part of "normal" cycle with a full load can be up to 80 mins long (longer than the same whole "normal" cycle with the "short" option engaged)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

My Bravos washer's Soak cycle tumbles the laundry periodically throughout the entire cycle; it is not "quiescently soaking".

Since I get great results with this washer, whether I soak laundry or not, I cannot justify paying megabucks for Miele. If others prefer a more expensive washer, no problem. It's their money, not mine.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mara, no one's dissing your machine. But we do love our Mieles as much as you love your Bravos :-) And lately there've been more of us. Looks like you need a Bravos posse :-)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Hey, I couldn't tell you guys love your Mieles, LOL. I was actually just answering the comment about soaking. I've also never been one to need a posse. I'm used to making my own decisions, based on as much research as possible. I didn't even consider washers that cost that much! ;-)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Id be interested to know if a bravos HE TL cleans as well as a front loader,,,both having internal heaters. I just look at a Miele 4842 today for the first time in person. I must say it has a strong sturdy door on it. The wash drum did not have the same polished looked right next to the gasket as the rest of the drum. Also I found a big grease glob inside the drum on the back wall. Does anyone have any issues with the lids over the bleach and fabric softener dispensors? The button on the outside didnt seem any better or less quality than on other machines. I wish I knew someone that had one to give it a test run.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Maybe someone here lives near you? It's possible. What is your zip code, or the first 3 digits if you prefer?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I have had the W4842 for over a month now. There is a oily residue in the drum from machining at the factory which is part of the reason the machine requires you to do a sanitize wash before the first use. A glob of grease is odd however, never noticed that in my machine. As for the lids on the dispensers I removed the bleach dispenser as its really not required in this machine. Using the master care "whitest whites" program does an awesome job without bleach. The fabric softener lid I have no issue with. While the control panel buttons may not feel so much better, they are made better. That whole panel pops right out and isnt actually attached to the electronics itself. Under that is the actually panel that has rubber coated buttons that the exterior panel buttons contact. Its as if Miele tried to make the control panel water resistant. I might be wrong on that but regardless it appears to be put together well. The feel of the buttons may seem a little loose and such, but Im willing to bet they can withstand years of abuse. Not to mention the panel can be replaced in 10 seconds with a flathead screwdriver or a butter knife. Ill take some pictures and post soon. I have a few videos on the Tube at this link you might like to see.

As for the original topic of this thread. I agree, people are getting carried away with under dosing detergent. I could eat a tablespoon of detergent. An average size load in my washer never gets anything less than cup, thats with the original Persil. I never have residue left behind and things rinse so well I can hardly, if ever smell that great sent of Persil I love so much.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele W4842 & T9822


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mieleforme, thanks for the videos. I knew there was a film on the drum that had to be washed out, the grease glob is what surprise me, look like the type of grease you pack bearings in. It a nice washer from what I observed, nice heavy duty fill hose's and drain hose. The price for it was 2024.00 which is what I expected it to be. I must of been told 5 times that this washer will last you 20 years or more, which is a good thing. I like the fact that according to the brochure, it uses more water on the wrinkle free cycle. I will continue to research this washer.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

wrinkle free- non visible (but a bit higher) level during main wash, then before draining main wash water there's the cooldown :
it fills up to max level with cold water, tumbles for a couple of minutes, drains down to low level, fills again, other tumbles, drain and pulse spin ( 2 bursts)

Rinses are made with max level with interim burst spins, then there's the final pulse/graduated spin

The fabric softener lid makes sense. I have had some frontloaders without a cover on the FS compartement.
My waterlines have a quite high pressure and water entering threw all the detergent around, even in the fabric softener compartement and we had to re-rinse ....


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I have completely given up the use of fabric softener since getting the Miele. It's totally unnecessary even when using 4+ TBS of detergent. The machine rinses very well - I have it programmed to do three deep, high-water rinses.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

sshrivastava, did you program your washer yourself, or did a Miele Tech do it for you? What model do you have? I like the sound of the high water rinse.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I programmed it myself from the service menu. There are some hidden settings to enable high water levels in rinses for soft water areas, allergy function which monitors the water conditions and adds an extra rinse, if necessary, and adjusts spin speed as well. There is a "rinse process" function which I have turned OFF. It seems to override the high water levels setting elsewhere in the service menu and I end up with low water levels in the rinse.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Thanks for the great info. I guess tomorrow I will go in the back yard an dig two holes, one for the money tree and the other one will be for me when I get planted there for wanting to buy The 4842 and matching dryer. I read great things about both appliances and I know I am not going to want a white washer next to my black HE3 dryer, may sound silly, but I hate mismatched sets, especially in colors.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

sshrivastava

RINCE PROCESS......Thats whats making my rinse water levels lower? I have turned on, Water Plus & Extra Rinse, Allergy, Maximum Water Level, and the Rinse Process. I knew one of them had to be canceling the other out. I didnt turn them all on at the same time so I didnt know what was doing what. But I did notice the rinse water levels not as high as once before. I dont know..... just when I think I know how this machine works I find out its a lot smarter and more complex than Ill ever be. Good to know and thanks again!

gates1

Thats funny...... and I dont blame you at all. I will say the Miele Dryer (Mine the T9822) is also an awesome machine. Much over shadowed by the washer but also very important in the laundering process, it does a great job. I would like more flexibility in the timed cycles but have easily overlooked this. Build quality is typical Miele off the hook awesome. And dont even get me started on the reverse tumbling it does......Hell, even the pedestals are built better than on any other brand I have come across. I paid $225 for each one ( same price my parents paid for Maytag "crap" ones) but when I went to shut the drawers for the first time and noticed that when they get to the last inch and a half they draw themselves closed, I thought it was totally worth it. I thought that was so cool. I know that sounds nuts ,and trust me I am, but along with durability Miele also adds some nice finishing touches to every product that in the end make the extra money spent worth it in the long run. To me anyhow ;)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

correction of the above post. Looking a the receipt I actually paid $299 for the pedestals. Still worth it :)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mieleforme, are the prices locked for Miele products? The washer was 2049.00 dryer 1449.00 pedistals were 335.00 each
for a whopping 4168 total! I will be sure to use lots of Miricle grow on that money tree. I will have to call Miele and see if there is an authorized dealer in case I need any kind of work on it. One of the bad things about living in Northeast east NC...nothing here. I know the washer and dryer both have lights in them, but I didnt see a switch that I could turn on during the wash cycle. Did I miss it, or just it just not exist?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

My local MIele dealer charged as follows:

W4842 Washer: $1,899
T9802 Dryer: $1,299
Pedestals: 2 x $299
Tax: ~$313.17
Installation: $135 (Miele authorized w/ extension to 2 year warranty)
TOTAL PAID: $4,244.17

I couldn't find them for less online, and I wanted to buy locally.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I ordered them in the beginning of January from US Appliance and paid a little over $3600.00. I have heard the prices jumped a little since then. The only discounts they gave me (since I bought washer and dryer so he said) was $50 of the washer, $50 off the dryer, and $25 off each pedestal. He did mention they dont have much wiggle room with price which I was aware of. The great thing was I didnt have to pay sales tax and they offered free white glove delivery. I installed the units myself ( no Miele dealer in my town) so there were no installation fees. Only thing Im considering now is purchasing the extended 5 year warrantee from Miele. @ $250.00 a unit its a lot of money. But if I need a Miele repair man the closest one is about 100 miles away in LA. I wouldnt want to pay for that.. Miele said they will send a "Miele" Tec out no matter where you live free of charge if it is under the Miele warrantee. I think the $500 price might just be worth it. As for drum lights they do turn off when the machine starts. I will check my receipt when I get home and post exactly what I paid.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Thanks for all the info guys/gals, so there is no switch to turn on when the machine runs...bummer, but I small price to pay. Im still working on a plan to get them....HMMMM someone needs to go out of town for work and they just magically appear as did the HE3t's.... 9yrears ago


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

gates1

Again too funny..... you could always break the dryer hahaha! Besides 9 years is the better part of its life. Might should replace it anyhow. Below is what I paid for my Miele set from US-Appliance. Only bad thing delivery took almost a month out to California.
Washer W4842 = $1799.00
Dryer T9822 = $1249.00
Pedestal WTS430 = $ 299.00
Pedestal WTS430 = $ 299.00
white glove delivery $0

Total $3646.00


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Id be interested to know if a bravos HE TL cleans as well as a front loader,,,both having internal heaters.

Since I haven't owned a FL, and since my Bravos HE TL doesn't have an internal heater (they were not available when I bought mine), I don't know. I do know that I've read many more reviews which rate Bravos' cleaning power as excellent than not, at a number of websites, and that I've been happy with mine.

I also know that a number of friends and relatives have FL's, and they've given me mixed reviews -- some good, some not. None of them own Miele washers. Two of them have gone from FL's to Bravos and are glad they did.

If the internal heater had been available when I bought my Bravos, I would have got it, because I like having one in my dishwasher.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mara 2008, how is the turnover in your Bravos? Ive seen a few Videos on youtube, and it is hard for me to tell, due to a short video, or its a very small load. I do love the huge capasity and opening of the washer. makes for unloading a wet comforter much easier. I wish there more videos of this machine posted.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Out of curiosity I went to take a look at some videos.
One of the FP, said deep rinse and than it was finished. Well, when it was doing the deep rinse, the water wasn't even clean yet! How can it be rinsed properly?
The other video, the laundry just won't mix. The blue shorts and the stripy something was on top for the longest time. How can this be washed right and combined w/ the "deep" rinse from the other video, it can't be good.
I could never wash laundry in that thing. Thank God for Fl. It tumbles nicely and even thou I have to use extra rinses, I know my laundry is clean and rinsed!


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RE: ... .just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I saw few more of TLs and the FP Aqua smart is as bad as the first ones I saw. They don't mix the laundry. Whirpool looks flimsy too. Most of them look cheap plasticky.
The only one I'd say looks sturdy and looks like it does great job is the speed queen.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

gates1, the turnover in my Bravos is excellent -- both washing and rinsing. Laundry is washed well and comes out clean. The Delicate and Handwash cycles are very gentle, of course, which is a good thing. I use the Bulky cycle for comforters, and they come out great! Which is one of the reasons I bought it.

The huge capacity (both washer and dryer) has saved me many, many hours of time, because I don't have to wash nearly as many loads per week as I did before I had these machines.

My Maytag Bravos machines are not "plasticky" at all -- they are solid and heavy. Which is another reason I opted for Bravos.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Thanks for the vidoes Alex, I have seen this before. Mara 2000, did you think the vid of the cabrio was overloaded with a the Queen size confortable, matress pad, and sheets? The turn over was barely noticable. On the other hand it seemed to have much better turn over washing the colored clothes with the whites. Could you tell if that was the bulky cycle or a regualar one.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

The "turnover" shown on these clips is perfectly fine. You all need to understand that these machines are designed to circulate the load at a slower rate and in a different manner than traditional agitator machines. The cycles are longer to allow time for the slower rollover to be effective. Notice in the 3rd video that at end of the 8-minute clip the AquaSmart still had 48 minutes left to finish the cycle,

I'm concerned that most of these users were running the Heavy cycle, which may be unnecessarily aggressive. That was one of the problems with the Calypso that led to Whirlpool reworking the cycle choices toward the end via revisions on the control board -- people running too aggressive of a cycle for the load, then complaining of clothing wear, excess tangling and wrinkling.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Dadoes, I understand what your saying, in the case of the cabrio with the sheets, comforter, matress pad and so forth in it, that if you didnt use an extended wash time, that the top layer will never get pulled uncer water so to speak? The rinse cycle is certainly not as long as the wash cycle and then what happens to the items on the top that never get under the water. I am just curious as to how it can wash/rinse with that slow of a turnover. The other cabrio video with the clothes in it looked just fine to me.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I doubt there's a need to specifically extend the wash time, the cycles are already programmed accordingly. The clips do not show a full cycle. In the aforementioned AquaSmart clip, I do believe the items rolled over at least twice and there was still an appreciable amount of wash time left. Even the 4th clip of a Cabrio running a load of bulky bedding, that's only a 2-minute clip and the load shifts noticeably about halfway through. The clip begins with the cycle already in progress, no details on how long it had been running, or how much time was left. The load could have already rolled several times, and possibly have several more rolls to go.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

dadoes, you made a good point, about the Heavy cycle being unnecessarily aggressive. I only use that cycle (called Super Wash on my washer) if laundry is really dirty and/or stained.

I hadn't thought about unnecessary usage of that cycle causing undue strain, wear and tear, on laundry, but I can see where that could indeed be a real problem. I do know my Bravos washer is definitely gentler on laundry than any other washer I've owned.

gates1, I couldn't tell if the Cabrio washer in the video was overloaded, or not. Comforters differ in thickness, and that, along with their size, determines how much they fill up a washer. I have a king-size comforter which is very "pouffy", and it almost fills up my washer, with about an inch to spare. I do not wash anything else with it.

If the owner of that Cabrio was able to put all those items in the washer without it being above the Full line, there would be no problem.

I routinely wash a set of queen-size sheets and three sets of twin-size sheets (two of the twin sets being the extra-long size), along with many pillowcases (DH and the DC like to use lots of pillows), and the washer is almost full, with a bit of room to spare.

Right now I'm washing two twin-size comforters (the extra-long size) with a twin-size blanket, and the washer is about half full. It is very rare that I wash less-than-full loads; this one is an exception.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mara, it sounds like those Bravos/Cabrios are a beast when it comes to holding all those linens :) Its good to know that you can wash that much and do it successfully. So the Power wash on your machine is more aggressive than the Heavy duty cycle? Another good thing to know as well. You have been a wealth of information about your Bravos. Thank You


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

gates1, the "Heavy" cycle on my washer is called Super Wash. The Cabrio and Bravos washers have different names for similar cycles, LOL.

My washer is "only" 4.6 cu ft. The newest Bravos (and Cabrio) washers are 5 cu ft. Wonder how many linens they can hold? ;-)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I just wonder how much better can they/will they get?? There has to be a stopping point before the outside deminsions expand


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I really find it hard to believe they'll get any bigger.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

No need to be any bigger, yours just recirculates the water in the beginning to saturate the load as it fills, then it just goes into the wash cycle..right? I always thought that was a good idea on the Calypso models, the waterfall throughout the cycle


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

The Calypso's recirculation is a required part of the wash process, being as the water level is never above the wash plate.

Fisher & Paykel EcoSmart and Intuitive Eco agitator toploaders have long used (close to 10 years) recirculation during the Eco Active wash phase of the cycle.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

If you really want to watch these HE top loaders turn the load over, you'll need to download the videos and watch them at a higher speed. Then you can see how the system works. I am, however, a little leery of the cleaning effectiveness with that large quilt. It just seems to move back and forth - don't think it'll ever be turned over. By the way, the newer Bravos and Cabrio washers were updated with the wash plate that was originally used on the Fisher&Paykel units. We'll see what Kenmore will offer in the future.

Here's a video from GE. It actually shows how clothes are turned over in a time-lapse video sequence.

Here is a link that might be useful: GE's Infusor Wash technology


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I am not positive about this, but I dont think Kenmore will keep the Oasis HE washer. All of them are on "closeout" and there was no mention of a replacement model. Sears will sell the Whirpool cabrio/Bravos. Maybe its too many models competing against each other from the same manufacture. Since Whirpool no longer makes the new Kenmore washers, I dont know if that means all Kenpool washers will come to an end.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Well, rumour has it that LG is going to come out with a HE top loader (see link). Actually, they already have one on the market: the GE Harmony.

Here is a link that might be useful: link to another discussion


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Couple of questions:

I find this intriguing since I recently purchased a detergent, Bi-o-Kleen which claims to work with 1 oz. or 2 tablespoons per load. This is pretty amazing if you compare it with the amount recommended with regular detergent. This bring up a couple of questions.

1: How do you get an accurate measurement? I notice a lot of detergent stays in the cap due to the viscosity of the detergent. I also wonder if all of the detergent makes it from the dispenser to the actual load of laundry.

2: What exactly gunks up the washing machine? I've been using the "green" detergent for about a year now. Wonder how I'd know if I'm damaging affecting my washing machine. Are there specific ingredients in the detergent I should look to avoid? Those that gunk things up.

3: Do you determine detergent amount by weight of laundry or approx. "dirtyness"? For example, muddy jeans vs. lightly used dress shirt. Always wondered how to know when to use less than the max. I typically would eyeball it, but I'm not so sure. Also the very small ammount of detergent makes me wonder if I'm really adding enough due to my concerns regarding question 1. If I do a 1/4 load how do I measure half a tablespoon and make sure it gets to the right place :)

Mike


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

1) I just wipe the cap with one of the clothes that will go into the load

2) **true soap** is the culprit. Many "green" detergent are based on natural soap. They may work great in very soft water, but they cause this gunk issue with hard water.
Soaps react with magnesium and calcium salts contained in hard water, so to produce undissoluble compounds that make laundry stiffer and build up in the outer tub.

3) Me too do your "half load, half amount" but also according to soil level in the meanwhile. But our detergents actually state "full load = 5 Kg"

The good question is another one : what's that "full load" they mention on the bottle ? Us washers come in several different sizes, IMHO a reference to a generic full load doesn't make much sense


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

One thing to remember is that detergent dosing should not be dependent on the volume of water used, but rather the amount of soiling and clothes. Detergent suspends the dirt in solution and keeps it from being re-deposited back onto the clothes. The amount of soil that needs to be handled by any given detergent remains the same whether you wash with 2 gallons or 20 gallons. The dosage remains the same.

A lot of people falsely assume that a lower volume of water requires a proportionately lower amount of detergent, which actually causes the dirt to go right back onto your clothes. This causes stiff, scratchy clothes and faded whites. This also causes dirt to build up on the washing machine internals. I believe this, in addition to fabric softener, to be the causes of most mold and gunk issues.

I used Bi-O-Kleen premium powder @ 1 tablespoon dose in my 5.5 kg Asko machine. After using it for a couple of months, my colored laundry (washed at 120F or less) developed a mildewy smell. I have a whole house water softener that is in perfect working order, so my water has a ZERO hardness. Given my experience, perhaps 1 TBS of detergent as recommended by some of these manufacturers is not enough.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

i only ever used organic detergent and never have any problems!


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

hidroman said: "2) **true soap** is the culprit. Many "green" detergent are based on natural soap."

Actually that's not true.

Natual plant-based detergents (BioKleen, Ecover, etc.) are true detergents and not soaps. They're just made from plant-based chemicals instead of chemicals made from petroleum products like the ones used in Tide, etc.

No US laundry detergent company makes any true laundry soaps anymore. Even Ivory Snow is now technically a detergent.

The only laundry soaps I know of anymore are the Zote bar laundry soaps made in Mexico.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Would you say stay away from BioKleen? Or are these products good?

Also, would the "Run the washer empty with some bleach" fix the mildew or gunk issue?

Mike


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I've had very good results with BioKleen liquid and their "premium powder."

Biokleen regular powder wasn't so good for us.

I also have started adding STPP to powdered detergents. That's made a big difference for us. We have medium-hard water.

I never wash anything in water colder than 85 F, and wash in hot water a lot. 120 to 158 F.

I think bleach and hot water washing will go a long way to preventing gunk buildup.

I also do not use liquid fabric softeners.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

http://www.lge.com/ae/home-appliances/washing-machines/LG-top-loading-WFT15D81EP.jsp

Could this be the next Kenmore Oasis?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

15kg capacity and the unit only weighs 43kg? I don't believe it.


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Its my guess the weight of the machine is a typo.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

There wasn't much info given about the new LG TL. I was surprised to see its spin speed given as only 800 RPM.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I too noticed that Mara, If indeed this model gets added to the Kenmore line, I am sure it will have a higher spin speed. I am not sure when Kenmore releases its new models, if it is a certain time of year or just as they come out.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

That is not a typo. Check also other models, one is even 41 Kg .

Round 10 years ago when LG, Samsung and Daewoo entered european markets they just had these impeller toploaders without internal heater and with plastic drum + outer tub. No need to say they switched to FLs within a couple of years ....


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I just received a very thoughtful email from Taylor @ Charlie's Soap. He sent me a PDF file with some additional dosage recommendations. 1 TBS is good for "full-size" front loaders, however those of us with 4.0+ cuft machines (bigger than "full size") should use 1.5-2 TBS. This may explain why some - especially those with harder water - may not be having a good experience. I suggest giving CS another shot by increasing the dose and also adding softening agents to your water if you have anything other than soft water.

Smaller capacity front-loaders (I'm thinking Asko, Danby, and the smaller Mieles) should use 3/4 TBS in soft water.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

czechchick,...I hope this thread is still operating. I am from other thread, about getting clothes white with out bleach. With a top loader, no heater,..I am wondering what amount of Persil you might think would be a good guess to try on a load of whites. My washer holds 12 to 14 lbs of clothes and I have med. hard water. I have not received the Persil yet, that I ordered but I am trying to figure it out, before it gets here.

Maybe try like you have mentioned with your 4 c.f. washer:
2/3 to 3/4 cup Persil ? with a full load of laundry. ( my c.f. is probably similar. Or more because of the lack of internal heater ?

I notice you posted that the water level does not determine the amount of detergent...so I will go by that, because a top loader does use more water and the dose ought not to make a difference then.

What do you think?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

mariwen,

I have a Bosch Nexxt 500 which is probably about the same in c.f. and lb. capacity size as your machine. For most loads I use 1 tbsp STPP + 2 tbsp Persil (Color or Universal, depending on the load) and, with a little pretreating of the typically "impossible" stains (most times oil-on-cotton) everything comes out flawless. I have two kids too, so the kind of stuff it gets out on a regular basis is pretty significant. And the STPP really helps overcome our hard water issues - I don't have any limescale buildup in the drum.

I've used as much as 6 tbsp (very roughly 1/3c) of Universal before with an extra-hot "profile" wash of some kitchen towels that had cooked (brown) cooking oil soaked into them from cleaning a waffle maker, and they came out spotless.

IMO, based on all that, 2/3 to 3/4 of a cup would probably be way Way *WAY* too much, and could cause rinsing issues especially on tough to rinse items like bath towels, etc.

Start low... you can always add more for the next load if the results aren't what you expect, and you won't waste any that way until you find the amount that works for you.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Well, I have to change my opinion and agree with those that said not to cut the amounts. We were doing some cleaning at another persons house. We were filthy by the time we got home. I decided to use a full dose of detergent and HOT water (I can see the jaws dropping now) LOL. All the clothes came out spotless and I had thrown all the clothes together to boot irregardless of color or fabric. I was so worried about germs and stink that I didn't care. I just wanted the clothes as clean as possible and it worked.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I just picked up some Mexican detergent: Roma, Foca, and Ariel. ( because I am still still waiting for the Persil I ordered ) so thought I would try this Mexico detergent in the mean time, and rinse, rinse, rinse to try to get out all irritants. ( and see if I will get rashes,as I am very allergic to chemical soaps.)

Czechchick has mentioned that she likes Roma detergent also.
So, since she says DO NOT reduce dose of detergent...just because your machine uses less water and to base dose amount on amount of clothes and how dirty they are... I would assume then,that the 2/3 - 3/4 cup of Persil she uses per load for her larger capacity machine with internal heater, would probably also apply to the Roma brand with my larger machine that holds 12 -14 lbs of clothes, but not having internal heater and medium hard water? or to up the dose further because of medium hard water.

However, to add to the dilemma, The study I found from Germany basically stated that if a machine is lacking in hot hot water/internal heater, then the detergent dose needs to go up to compensate. Czechchick seems to agree and then says that that load with more detergent added then also needs much more rinsing cycles also to get that higher dose of detergent out and I will do that also. So, the question is, ought I to raise the the 2/3 -3/4 cup to 1 cup based on the additional info from German study that my machine does not have heater to give hot hot water? and raise it more also, because I have medium hard water?

My machine is an older top of the line Kenmore using just regular hot tap water. I don't have thermometer to check temp, but I am going to get one soon, so I can know what the temp is. ( and I am planning on getting a Miele probably at some point, but in the meantime...) And I am resetting wash cycle twice to three times longer,( so 45 minutes ) then rinsing three times, to get the additional longer cycle of Miele.

I hope czechchick sees this post and uses her sense of things to agree or not agree on upping the dose of detergent? Czech chick also prewashes like me, but uses no detergent ...and I will do same.

Happymother, thanks for confirming that you agree also with not reducing detergent dose because of how much water goes into the washer itself, but basing on dose for lbs of clothes and dirt.

Thanks mysteryclock also for your comments.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mariwen: Mexican Ariel contains phosphates and smells awful if you read the posts here in the Laundry forum. I almost bought it, but I hate to do horrible things to the environment using phosphates and the water supply.

As I posted in another thread Eurofoodmart (I think that's the name of the place I used) has great prices on Persil and Ariel.

I got the most huge box of Ariel I've ever seen from them, and free shipping, along with my Persil. I think I won't be needing any laundry detergent for years now!

My Spuma di Schiampagna softener - I buy that in the case load now. And there's another Spuma for darks which works really well, but mostly I wash all of my clothes together. I hardly use Bounce fragrance free now (just occasionally with blankets).


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Thanks Mielemaid, yes, I noticed that the Mexico Ariel is strong smelling. So, you think the Ariel brand to use is the Euro brand for smell and lack of phosphates. Okay, I will remember to try to get the Euro brand. Thanks.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Hi Mariwen. I went to the eurofoodmart site and here's a direct link to ariel.

http://eurofoodmart.com/ariel-c367.html

It's a HUGE box of it, and it's the European one, not the Mexican one. The big diff is that the Mex one is really stinky (according to GW people), and contains phosphates (according to GW people).

I bought Ariel and some Persils at the eurofoodmart site.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Thanks Mielemaid ! What a doll you are for going to the trouble of getting the exact link and all ! So, the euro brand of Ariel cleans as well as the Mexico one? and smells better right?

As a side note : The Persil I ordered is still not here from Amazon, and its been an additional 10 days from normal delivery times. I am going to dispute payment. The company Amazon used was " Better Products " company.But I am never using them again. I will order for Persil from somewhere else, maybe your euro mart place unless I get it today.

How much does the box of Ariel detergent you have say to use? for a load ? If you don't mind me asking. Thanks.

I will just throw out this Mexico brand. The small bag has only about 2 cups in it. And I did notice that as I walk by the bag, it seems to have an after odor to the fragrance, that does not smell right.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Just a question. Unless you live in Europe or Mexico, why would you buy their laundry detergent when you can get good laundry detergent made in America?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

mielemaid, never mind, I just read what you posted on the other thread, that you use about 4 T if clothes are more soiled.

bigdogmom,...I think mainly, the answer is: probably for a a variety of different reasons. And each person probably has their own reason.
Probably others can add to this comment and help you out.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Ditto, bigdogmom. I am very happy with laundry detergent which is made in America. It gives me great results and what I have bought has been amazingly inexpensive.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I haven't been particularly satisfied with domestic detergents and have had great results with Persil. Until discovering eurofoodmart.com, we had to pay double for Persil. Now we can have it for half! If domestic detergents are working for you, that's great! But I'm not happy with the combination of cleaning power, rinsability, and scent with any of the domestic products I've tried.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Hi everyone. To Bigdogmom and Mara2008: the reason many of us use Persil is we have European machines. I loved Tide, it's a fantastic detergent but based on what people at GW said, even the Tide HE is not right for the Miele and could gum up the machine. So, trust that I love Tide, and miss Tide. But for a Miele washing machine, which is what we bought, it's prob best to use Persil and Ariel in the Euro washing machines. In fact it's in the instructions when you buy a Miele. Hope that clears up why people are using Persil and Ariel. :)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@mielemaid: I don't think you need German detergents to use in a German machine. Fundamentally, there is no reason why you can use Tide HE in a Duet or LG but not in a Miele. The reason Miele recommends Persil is because Miele is one of the largest direct importers of Persil detergent into the USA and stands to make a tidy profit if you buy the product from them.

The most important thing is to use an HE detergent. A big mistake some people make is to use their regular non-HE detergent in smaller quantities. Doing something like this will gum up your machine because you are not getting enough surfactants into the water to properly clean the laundry and hold the soils in suspension. Guess what? Everything re-deposits back onto the clothing and washer parts.

As long as you stick with an HE formulation and don't use too much or too little, you'll be fine. The rest is personal preference.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

sshriva: Maybe. But from reading the GW website I did learn not to use Tide. Several people on archived threads said their repair person said that it still makes too many suds for the Euro machines. Persil is a lot less sudsy than Tide and several posters said that their machines were gummed up from using Tide HE.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Side note:

Re: my order of Persil Sensitive that is very late: I complained on Amazon site and left a message for the Better Products company that I ordered the Persil from on June 1st. This past Saturday, it still was not here. Well, the Persil just arrived, Fed Ex with an apology note stating their stock from Germany was delayed. They put in a container of Vernel fabric softener for their inconvenience to me.

So, now I can smell the Persil sensitive. It smells nice as I smell bag. I will have to wait now until I have some more dirty clothes to try it, maybe tomorrow.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

mielemaid, Tide is only one American detergent. There are many others. I've used other HE detergents which cost very little and have given great results. I have some Tide HE too, have had no problem with it. I just don't use it as much as I do the others. ;)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I decided to take a look at the user manual for Asko's XXL 4.5 cuft North American machines. Let's compare what Asko says about detergent use versus what Miele says in their manual for the W4842 4.0 cuft machine (what I have). Miele says to use what is recommended by the detergent manufacturer. Asko recommends 2-3 TBS and specifically lists Fab, All, Tide HE, Amway SA8, Fresh Start and Wisk HE. Asko also recommends against the use of liquid detergents due to sudsing issues at temps over 150F.

Just another data point to consider in this discussion.

Here is a link that might be useful: Asko XXL User Manual - see pgs 13-14


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@sshrivastava - I looked at that Asko manual and what I find interesting is they say, "ASKO washers use 50% to 75% less detergent than most other washers." Do they mean top-loading or other FLs? This is somewhat confusing (to me).

FWIW, we've had our Miele W4842 for six weeks. Once, for fun, I used the suggested amount of Persil Megaperls on the bag, using their chart for soil level and water hardness, and the laundry was scratchy after it was dried. I figure it was residual detergent. Our water hardness is "average" - 4 grains / avge. 101 ppm according to the city info.

I get very good results with putting half the recommended dose of whatever brand I'm using, but our soil levels are low/average and I usually only fill the washer halfway. If we still had the soccer-playing offspring at home, more detergent would most likely be used.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I think Asko's claim is comparing with traditional front loaders. I don't see anything about the Asko front loaders that would cause them to use less detergent than other front loaders. Especially when you consider the XXL models aren't even manufactured by Asko and do not have much in common with their counter depth Euro-style siblings except the Asko name. Asko makes the same claims regarding detergent use for their smaller, Euro-style machines as well.

The difference in approaches between Miele and Asko to the issue of educating consumers about their machines is quite startling. Asko actually tries to educate its customer while Miele goes with a far more minimal and risk averse approach. If you think about it, Asko is assuming liability by putting a specific dosage recommendation in the manual. Miele is offloading that liability burden to the detergent manufacturers.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I'm curious... Can those of you who have 4+ cuft machines and use 1-2 TBSP of detergent confirm whether this dosage is sufficient to remove stains and soiling from your laundry without a lot of pre-treating?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

well i'm not sure what size machine I have but i've been using 2 tablespoons of the Sears Ultra powder and clothes come out clean. I got Cheer regular powder yesterday and use 2.5 tablespoons on whole loads.

Curious what would happen with increased amounts of soap I washed my children's sheets and comforters with extra soap today and my first load with a whole scoop of Sears had to go through 2 extra rinses before I put it in the dryer and my second full load I used 3 tablespoons of Sears and 1 extra rinse was sufficient before putting it in dryer. Sheets and comforters seem to have the same amount of clean though I don't notice a difference good or bad.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

As you must surely have read by now, I have the older Euro-style front loaders: Askos, Miele 1918s and 1986s and I can "confirm" that I use one tablespoon (give or take a scootch as I use a green Charlie's scoop) of regular Cheer per load without a lot of pre-treatment for overall soiling.

Do I generally pretreat stains, of course! What kind of stains?

All blood that I know about ahead of time. I use saliva of the person whose blood it is if possible (gross, I know, but it really works), or long, very cold, saline, soaks ahead of time.

Grease and oil spots on clothing (either cooking or eating mishaps, or farm and machinery contact). I use Shout for those, spray on ahead of time. If the item has already been washed - and this is usually farm axle/bearing grease on Carhardt overalls here - then I use a de-greaser like Go-Jo or Dawn degreaser.

Manure, pee and general animal/dairy slop: I soak item in borax/water overnight.

Ink and sharpie marker: acetone from reverse side, blot until gone.

Chimney soot and creosote: ammonia or, if stubborn, diluted fireplace glass cleaner which is a mild form of lye.

Grass and ground-in knee dirt from gardening and farm field work: Shout, or some of my left-over ERA liquid and soak.

Paint: That proprietary paint remover product.

Tomato and fruit stains and glop when canning: shout and/or clorox soak if white, or sodium percarbonate soak, if coloured.

Ring around the collar on farm clothes: shout from time to time.

Ring around the collar on white dress shirts: shout every time, which I hate, but I am married to a man with a ring around the color creating neck.

In short, I treat every discrete stain that I know about before the wash because that's when it is still unset-in and most removable and because I believe in using the least amount of product across the board for everything is better. Better for my pocketbook, the environment, and most of all, better for the clothes as all products have some consequences to the fabrics themselves.

Since I use fairly hot temps (though always with a profile temp rise) and vigorous washing, I need to make sure that I'm not setting a stain if it can be gotten off ahead of time. I would say the sort and pre-treat phase of washing, while critical to my regimen, adds scarcely an extra half-hour per week and I do more than 30 loads every seven days.

I don't know why this seems so unlikely to you. Believe me, if more detergent would make my laundry cleaner, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. And I have tried adding more, especially in the last week or so as this question is being so much discussed right now. I can add up to a bit more than twice what I'm now using without getting excess product problems, but I don't see any additional cleaning, so it seems pointless, to me.

This is so much a function of water chemistry, that the best recommendations is careful on-site testing and dosage adjustment. The parameters are between the least amount for excellent cleaning and the max amount before suds, poor rinsing and deposition in the machine occurs.

Keep in mind that my stain challenges are extreme compared to most suburban households since this is a farm.

Have you tried reducing your dosage to see how that works in your water?

HTH,
L


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Do most people just set their washers to do the extra rinse cycle here? Mine will rinse and drain twice before doing the final spin but I can program my washer to do the extra rinse cycle as well and I never have. I wonder if I should set my washer to do the extra rinse now though.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@liriodendron, all I was thinking while reading your post is, "God bless farmers!!" My goodness, that's a lot of crazy stains.

I use a simple laundry bar for many stains and it works amazingly well. Not sure if you have a laundry sink handy to your machines.

I haven't found anything this bar won't remove or diminish significantly.

I have my third rinse selected as I don't like any residual detergent or too much scent.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soap Works Laundry Stain Bar


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

My machines automatically provide 4 (or 5 on the Asko) rinses. I occasionally add in another, especially if the clothes are visitors' and may have detergent residue in them.

@livebetter: Most of those stains are occasional, or seasonal problems (i.e. grass in summer and chimney soot in winter), aside from grease/oil and manure, which are year round, alas. I was just describing the variety of stains I routinely pretreat and don't rely on the washer and washing product to handle singlehandedly. I realize that many (most?) people believe that the washer should remove all stains, but I don't share that opinion. Since it can't tell if an individual stain is removed, there's no reason to find fault with it (or the detergent brand or quantity) if it fails. The washer must provide excellent overall cleaning and rinsing and removal of body soil and dirt, but actual stains (ink, oil, grass, blood, etc.), that's another story.

L.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@liriodendron, I agree on pretreating. People want the "magic bullet" detergent to remove everything and I think that's overkill for 90% of the laundry. I also pretreat what I know about.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I don't think I've ever done a third rinse, unless it looked a little foamy for some unknown reason, then I run an added rinse cycle. I always program second rinse (and I think it really is a second rinse, not a third) because I just think it's better to do so.
I'm curious though why I don't see more people using Charlie's Soap. I use 1 Tablespoon for a large load; I don't have a need for fabric softener or dryer sheets and everything is bright and white and smells clean. I do use oxyclean in most washes and pre-treat stains with oxyclean spray. Is there a reason why I should not be using Charlie's soap anymore? I have about 5 gallons of it in the garage -- I hope that's not what burned out my washer bearings!


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@annie1971 - I used CS (Charlies Soap) for 4 1/2 years in our old TL washer, until this past April. It did a good job and I was pleased. During the final year I used it, I noticed the whites had become ecru/beige. Washing them in All F&C brightened them up, but when I returned to CS they got dingy beige/ecru. Now that I have discovered F&C detergents with enzymes, everything is even cleaner.

A year ago, my DH developed a mystery rash. Dermatologist gave him a cream that helped, but they could not figure out what it was, even after two biopsies. After I stopped using CS, the rash has disappeared by 99%. Since then, I've read that some babies get rashes when their cloth diapers are washed with CS, so perhaps something is in it to which my DH developed an allergy over time, like the coconut fats (or whatever it is) base.

The first time I used the CS in my new FL washer, there was a film all over the inside of the drum afterwards. I don't know what it was, but it freaked me out and no other detergent has done that. In my TL, as the TL was filling, the CS always seemed to foam or suds up. It went away rather quickly, but still .....

I'll never say "never," but for now, I gave away most of my CS and have no plans to use it again.


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using less detergent

RE: using less detergent

For what it's worth, yesterday I noticed on the ecoVantage detergent as well as the Biokleen/Bi-O-Kleen (the brands I used yesterday from my stash), they give their dose recommendation for a FL washer, and then they recommend doubling the amount to use for a TL washer.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Wow! This thread is still going. :)

For what it's worth, yesterday I noticed on the ecoVantage detergent as well as the Biokleen/Bi-O-Kleen (the brands I used yesterday from my stash), they give their dose recommendation for a FL washer, and then they recommend doubling the amount to use for a TL washer.

Did they say FL and TL, or did they say HE and "standard" or "non-HE", etc?

My TL washer (Maytag Bravos) is an HE washer, doesn't use nearly as much water as a standard TL w/agitator.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@mara 2008 - Good questions.

Both are labeled HE and do not suds much if at all, even in the rinses.

BioKleen simply says "Top Load" and "Front Load" and does not distinguish whether the TL is HE or water guzzler.

ecoVantage goes into more detail, even for FL washers:

"FRONT LOAD WASHERS:
.5 scoop for small loads
1 level scoop for normally soiled items
1.5 scoop for heavily soiled items
2 scoops for XXL capacity (3.5+cu. ft.)

TOP LOAD WASHERS:
*Increase amt. until desired results are achieved, typically doubling or tripling the amount (2-3 scoops).
In areas with soft water and in homes with a water softener, these amounts may need to be reduced to avoid over sudsing that will reduce the washer's effectiveness. Start by reducing the quantity to half and adjust to match your local water conditions."

I bought the ecoVantage from my Miele dealer. It is a F&C formula and they can't keep it on the shelves, they sell so much of it. I had to wait for a shipment before I could get mine. IMO it cleans well but we're not washing soccer or football stuff anymore; just typical grownup clothes.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ Cavimum

Can you tell me how many TBSP fit into an EcoVantage scoop? I still have my old stash of EcoVantage, but lost the scoop. I'd love to give it another try.

@ annie1971

The reason I no longer use Charlie's Soap is because it doesn't clean as well as other detergents. After prolonged use of CS, my whites started to look dingy and stains did not come clean. There is nothing more horrifying than pulling "clean" laundry out of your machine and seeing the same stains that were there when you put the dirty laundry into the machine!

I have a whole house softener and used up to 2.5 TBSP of the CS to see if it helped. It didn't. After just one washing in Persil Universal Megaperls (or, I imagine, the US equivalent - Tide HE w/ Bleach), my whites came back to life and stains were gone. In my humble opinion, a detergent is no good if it washes no better than plain water.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

BioKleen simply says "Top Load" and "Front Load" and does not distinguish whether the TL is HE or water guzzler.

Yes, this seems to be par for the course for some companies these days; they don't distinguish between HE and non-HE/standard washers.

Your post gave great detailed info, Cavimum. :)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@shrivastava - I lost my ecoVantage scoop, too! It's a conspiracy. LOL
But I seem to remember 30ml as the capacity and am dosing with that number as "one scoop".

CS as no enzymes or oxy bleach, and probably no OBAs. It made no difference on my dark garments, but like I said, over time I saw it on the whites.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

What are the ingredients in EcoVantage? Is it different from Charlie's soap? I know it has oxygen bleach but curious what else it has.


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ecoVantage ingredients

ecoVantage(TM) ingredients as listed on label:

"Cleaning surfactant, enzyme stain removers, all-fabric Oxygenated cleaning agent (non chlorine), water softener, washer-protection agent, and color protection ingredient. This detergent contains no phosphates other than trace or incidental amounts."

The label also states that it is:

"-Formulated specifically for HE FL washers, but also works great in TLs.
-Biodegradable; safe for septic systems.
-Kosher approved.
-Phosphate free.
-Sensitive formula, no perfumes or dyes."

Plastic bucket style container (with handle) states 120 loads and I think I paid $40+ sales tax. There are quite a few online vendors for it.

I have not been able to find a web site for this detergent, or figure out who manufactures it, or where. Online vendors call it Asko ecoVantage, so there is or was a relationship with Asko washers at some point. Since my local indy appliance dealer carries it, I didn't pursue it any further. My sales guy said they sell a LOT of it. I should probably get some more soon, as it looks like I'm going to be tied to F&C formulas. The perfumed ones are not working out. (wah!)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ Cavimum

My EcoVantage ingredients list also states fabric brightener and soil suspension agent - yours does not.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Mystery ... so does it contain OBAs or no??


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ livebetter

This is why I always felt that the "Eco" in EcoVantage was a bit misleading. How ecological is the use of optical brighteners? From what I'm reading around here, not very.

@ Cavimum

I did some calculations based on weight instead of volume. The EcoVantage box contains 3,180 grams of detergent (3.18 kg). I weighed a level tablespoon of the powder at 15.9 g (weighed four times and averaged the results). This gives you right around 200 TBSP per box. Now the box says 120 loads, which means they are calculating 1.7 TBSP per load. That's close enough to 2 TBSP per load, which I'm assuming equals one scoop.

Now remember, this same detergent is sold by Asko for use with its European size front loaders and has been even before the introduction of Asko's XL sized machines. I'm pretty confident this dosing scheme is for 5-6 kg machines, meaning that we need to kick those doses up a notch for our larger 8+ kg machines. My math takes me to 2.5 TBSP for a 4+ cuft 8+ kg machine.That's for a "normal" sized load at normal soiling levels. Add more for packed loads or higher soil levels, use less for small loads. The directions also say to start with half the suggested dose for those with soft water, which would be 1.25 TBSP.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

"My EcoVantage ingredients list also states fabric brightener and soil suspension agent - yours does not."

@'sstava - I double-checked the label on ours just now, and I got the list right. So yours is a different formula. HHhmmm.....
The UPC/SKU # on ours is 574-18-00090 with an 8 on the left outside of the bars and a 6 on the right, outside the bars. What does your say?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ Cavimum

Here is a photo of the label you are talking about, including the ingredients list at the bottom...


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

... another mystery ...


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I have been shopping for a new washer and dryer. The salesman told me about the 1 TBSP rule. However, i recently heard that some people use regular soap in their HE'S. Is this possible? Also, I heard about a product called Summit which freshens and removes lime & rust from machines. What do you think? Im affraid of dry dirty laundry coming out of the washer. Laundry used to be simple.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ vejoan

Due to the very small amount of water used by front load machines, you need to use HE detergent. Not everyone does. Due to the small amount of water used in front loaders, there is a much greater burden placed on the detergent to properly suspend those soils. Also remember that if one of your clothing articles bleeds color into your wash, that color bleed is much more highly concentrated in the small pool of water at the bottom of your machine. A good detergent needs to keep those concentrated dyes from attaching to your other fabrics.

Imagine a load of clothes in a top loader, sitting comfortably in a tub of water. Now take the same amount of clothes, therefore the same amount of dirt and soil, and put them in a front loader that uses 70%-80% less water. If you could still use in the front loader the same amount of non-HE detergent that you were using in your top loader, you would be fine. Except this usually causes ridiculous amounts of suds. So people who use non-HE detergent in their machines generally reduce the amount so as not to create a lot of suds. Unfortunately, this also reduces the amount of cleaning agents and soil suspension agents to a point where they can't do an adequate job. Over time this results in mold, mildew, gunk and odor.

HE detergent is formulated to give you the right amount of cleaning and soil suspension agents (similar to using a full dose of non-HE detergent) but without all of the suds. You don't want suds in your front loader, since they cushion the fabrics and will negatively impact your machine's ability to clean effectively. There is just a small learning curve here, not a big deal.

The "1 TBSP rule" is pretty much hogwash. Nobody can tell you how much detergent to use unless they know the capacity of your machine, level of soiling and local water hardness. I have a whole house water softener, so my water is 100% soft, and I use 3-4 TBSP of HE detergent in my 4 cuft machine with good results and very little sudsing. I start with half the manufacturer's recommendation and adjust up or down depending on the cleaning level or sudsing.

As long as you use enough HE detergent and perform HOT washes on a regular basis to ensure your machine is kept clean, you won't have any problems. To ensure the minimum amount of issues, make sure you buy a machine with an internal heater that will maintain or boost your wash temperatures.

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SOFT WATER - STAY AWAY FROM PRODUCTS LABELED AS "SOAP" OR "LAUNDRY SOAP". SOAP COMBINES WITH THE HARDNESS MINERALS IN YOUR WATER TO CREATE SOAP SCUM INSIDE YOUR MACHINE. ONCE THAT HAPPENS, YOU ARE AT A VERY HIGH RISK OF GETTING MOLD, MILDEW AND ODORS. UNLESS YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SOFT WATER, STICK WITH DETERGENTS.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Ditto everything sshrivastava said for HE toploaders too (like my Maytag Bravos).


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

After using my frontloader for a few weeks at the lowered amount of soap I now notice that I need to add a little more soap to see any real sudsing and I can even use the Wisk HE liquid without risk of oversudsing or requiring tons of rinsing like before.

So I think all the excess sudsing I was seeing and needing to reduce the amount of soap was because of the soap residue left on the clothes from my old top loader and my tendency to overuse laundry soap.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Jewels,

That is very true in my experience. This weekend I was washing (and re-washing) a group of vintage cotton matelasse coverlets and linen tablecloths (farm auction plunder). I did two complete pre-wash/washe cycles on everything without any laundry products before using my normal regimen just to get the old soap out. Although they were badly yellowed from prolonged storage (with tons of detergent residue onboard), in the end all but a few stains (oxides) were removed. I used Cheer, sodium perborate, STPP and 190F with a profile wash. In the early loads I had to quell residual suds, over and over, with grated Ivory soap flakes. My machines worked like champs, but I'm not sure how my septic system is holding up from the unusual amount of laundry.

Keep a measuring device with your detergent, and use it every time to avoid dosage creep over time.

L.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I tried the using less laundry powder than called for, but more than a tablespoon and my husband started stinking. I said something about using deodorant and he said he was using it. Then the light went on, I started using what the package said to use and no more smelly problem. Then I apologized to my husband.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@'stava - I picked up another tub of the ecoVantage powder detergent today, and the ingredients listed are identical to my other tub (posted above) I bought in April 2011. Yours must be an older version, as the web site to buy is different from what is on mine. In fact, today's new bucket has a different website from my last bucket.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ Cavimum

I believe I purchased my EcoVantage in 2007. I had wondered what is "eco" about optical brighteners, maybe someone over there finally realized the same thing. What is the web address for the new product?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@sshrivastava - the old bucket had www.askotogo.com which is (currently) an invalid web site. The new bucket says:
www.askousa.com/buy-asko/e-biz/ which takes me to an Asko web site. Once there, clicking the link for e-biz brings up warnings in both IE and Firefox that I can continue at my own risk. I'll pass . . .


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

I do not find http://www.askotogo.com as an invalid site, it's in "under construction" mode.

The warning on Asko E-Biz is related to the site security certificate (SSL) having expired on 8/28/2010. Not unusual that a certificate expiration is overlooked by server management, but this one is a year past-due, which is unusual. Maybe they're no longer doing online sales via the linked service/site, which is amappliancegroup.com and is a valid domain name registered on 3/29/2001, currently expires 6/30/2015. If so, the site webmaster should have removed the E-Biz page or updated the link on it accordingly.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@dadoes - Wow, that is so weird. Perhaps they are re-inventing the site. It definitely did not have that look when I checked it a few months ago.

That amappliancegroup.com was on the lable that 'stava shared here. My label doesn't have that. The 1-800 numbers are all the same, though, to order more. EcoVantage detergent may be a small department that keeps getting bumped around the innards of Asko. As long as they keep making and selling it, I'm fine. My only other choice for HE F&C is the Sears Ultra and I'm not sure I'm sold on it with our water quality.


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Correction...

... meant to say my only other choice for powder HE F&C.....


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@cavimum, why wouldn't you consider Seventh Generation Free & Clear? It ranked in the top 10 on Consumer Reports detergent list. Contains enzymes and sodium percarbonate but no brighteners. If it was available here I would try it. I'm considering ordering some up from the US to try it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Seventh Generation Powder F&C


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@livebetter - I tried 7th Gen. "Hypoallergenic" powder detergent several years ago, did the entire week's laundry in it all in one day. The next day, I broke out in a horrible itchy rash. $90US later for a doctor visit and Kenalog shot (no nat'l health care down here), I had to rewash everything, and never used it again. I won't ever try it again. Been there, done that.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@cavimum, what could be in there? Obviously you have some serious sensitive skin issues.

FWIW, Seventh Gen reformulated their powders very recently (although I'm sure you'd be too gun shy to try again).

If you're reactions are so severe how do you ever try new products without fear?? You must just stick to what you know won't cause a reaction.

Don't get me going on health care ... it's got its positives and its negatives. People in this country run to the doctor for EVERYTHING (kid has the sniffles ... better run to the doctor).

My BIL has wealthy clients who actually fly to the US for specialized treatment if needed. In Canada they may have long waits (thanks to health care).

But I digress ... :)


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

In the good ol' US of A, a large segment of our population believes that those without health insurance should just die. People on that side of the aisle will disagree, but that is the net result to those who are not insured. If the health issue doesn't kill you, the bills that come afterward certainly will. The only way out of that is bankruptcy, but that's good once every ten years and it screws with other aspects of your life. And, you need money to file a bankruptcy and be represented by a competent attorney.

Too many people in this society, at least, have very little compassion for those who are less fortunate. While most civilized countries in the world care for those who encounter unfortunate times, in our country we tell people that they need to care for themselves. When a hurricane ravages the east coast, we are told by a small group of terrorists who are holding our government hostage - we can't provide emergency disaster relief unless we cut the budget elsewhere. Eric Cantor, I'm sure the people in your home district in Virginia are in love with your position now that they have been ravaged by a hurricane. Feels different when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it? And where were all of these self-labeled "fiscal conservatives" when their leader, George W Bush, launched two wars that were never paid for and were kept off the budget and turned a budget surplus into a deficit?

But I digress. I am seriously considering a move to Canada if the Republicans win in 2012. Our country is heading for disaster in a very big way, either with more failed Republican economic policies or with them holding the government hostage as they have been since the beginning of this year. Thank god I can legally marry my partner of six years in Canada and obtain citizenship/residency with a minimum of fuss. America is no longer the land of the free, it's the land where freedom is for sale.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@livebetter - The Seventh Gen. powder at that time apparently had a bad problem with high residue. Not long after the fact, I found test results on the internet (on a cloth diaper forum, I think, or the Country Save web site)using black fabrics, that showed Seventh Generation having a very high residue. That alone may have been the problem. But, one bitten . . .

The All F&C works well for us, as well as the ecoVantage powder.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ Cavimum

You should always take those "test results" with a grain of salt. Isn't it funny how the tests always favor the detergent manufacturer who is promoting the results? Look at the Charlie's Soap web site. There you can find a chart showing how cleanly rinsing Charlie's Soap is, and how horrible Tide and other products are because items washed in those products weighed up to 4% more after washing and drying compared to those items washed in Charlie's Soap. The assumption CS is making is that the additional weight must be undesirable "build-up" or nasty fillers that don't rinse away. They are trying to scare you. But I think equating an increase in dry laundry weight to harmful build-up is wrong. Look at Tide Total Care. It is supposed to leave behind protective agents on your clothes to soften them and lubricate the fibers for a "like new" feel. Is that bad? The funnies part in all of this is that CS claims its product rinses as clean as plain water... and guess what? It's as effective as washing in plain water as well.

Charlie's Soap's statements are absurd if you think about it. My washer takes 8 kg of dry laundry, but usually I end up washing about 6 kg (3/4 full). According to CS, if I were to wash that 6 kg load in Tide then the dry weight should increase by 4%. That means the laundry weight would have to increase by 1/2 lb. Funny... the amount of detergent used to wash that load only weighs 75 g (filled to line 3 of Tide HE w/ bleach liquid), or 0.16 lbs. What CS is claiming in its "study" is impossible, unless somehow the quantity of my detergent is increasing itself by a factor of three inside the machine and none of it is rinsing off. Divine intervention is required in order to make the CS claims true.

I have started to eschew most natural detergents of late. After switching back to Tide HE and Persil, it's quite obvious that the natural products are pretty ineffective. I was hopeful that my whole house water softener would make these natural products as effective as their mainstream grocery store counterparts, but sadly that is not the case. Whites turn grey over time, stains are faded but not removed, and prevention of color transfer in mixed loads is not handled as well. My colored laundry is vivid again and my whites are truly white. There is nothing I hate more than washing a load for an hour or more and still seeing stains that were not removed. While we may sleep better at night for using natural laundry detergent, we may be doing so in dirty sheets.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@cavimum, it was Country Save. Did you ever try Country Save since they "claim" to have no residue? I have to agree (somewhat) with sshrivastava re: these tests.

However, I will disagree with the statement about green detergents.

I find it interesting that you (sshrivastava) with your soft water have so many laundry issues. I have moderately hard water and two small boys to deal with. For 3 years I have used mostly "green" detergents with some conventional when needed.

I don't have dingy whites or stains. NO stains. People often comment on how I keep my kids socks so clean.

I've never been a big fan of the green (really basic ingredient) options (like Charlie's, Country Save, Nellie's). I have used Shaklee Get Clean, Seventh Generation, BioKleen, Method, Greenworks ... used with oxygen bleach and no issues here.

I do use Tide or Persil if I feel it's necessary. I did tea towels today on hot, extra white, extended, sensitive with Tide HE + sodium percarbonate + borax with vinegar in the rinse. Out of 25 towels, one came out with slight stains still. I pretreated that towel and next time I'm sure it will come out perfect.

Let's be real though, the stains on my tea towels are not the same as washing sheets weekly. Vaska + oxygen bleach on my sheets has kept them white and clean.

Keep in mind, part of the "dingy white syndrome" could be related to lack of optical brighteners (if you were using green detergents without them). Things maybe didn't "appear" white.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

@ livebetter

Good point about the OBAs. I went the Charlie's Soap route for a couple of months. I felt my washing results were initially good, however over time the whites lost their sparkle and stains would not come out. I mean the stains would be faded, but you could still see them. It's possible that the "dingy" white I'm referring to is a true, natural white without the effect of OBAs. However, comparing the two, I must admit that I prefer the look of my whites with OBAs. The difference is especially noticeable on darker clothing with white trim or stripes. With natural detergents, that white trim goes grey since I wash those items with similar darker items. With Tide, Persil, etc. the trim stays bright white.

I still use Vaska on my lightly stained items, especially bath towels. Nothing beats the fluffiness I get with Vaska on towels. I wouldn't say that I have a lot of laundry "issues", rather that I'm somewhat OCD and talk about more things laundry related than most people. The one area where I really struggle is with oil spots on dark clothes. Even having the best machine on the market with soft water using the best detergents, I still get clothes with dark spots where the oily stain used to be. Sure, pre-treating will take care of it, but I'm not really big on pre-treating and sometimes you just miss a few spots. The problem is, these spots are not visible on clothing after you remove it from the washer, only once they are dried. When clothes are wet, they take on a darker appearance which blends in with the spots, but once dried you can see the darker spots. These spots are always where I had a food or oily stain previously, not elsewhere. Since these spots show up exactly where the food stains used to be, it's not related to fabric softener, dryer sheets, leaking oil in the machine or anything like that (thank god!).

I've purchased Biz liquid additive w/ enzymes, which does make the situation a little better, although the spots are still visible albeit more faded. This is a battle I can't win. Although I have to tell you, I don't recall having this issue with my Neptune back in 2001. But back then, I blissfully used a full dose of non-HE liquid detergent and had great results. Today, detergent dosing doesn't seem to impact the stains. Whether I use a quarter dose, half dose, or full dose - the stains remain unaffected unless pre-treated.

Am I crazy?


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

"Am I crazy??" I'll plead the Fifth.... just teasing!!! As the saying goes, "Birds of as feather . . . "

I used CS for a few years and whites became beige. I used no other laundry additives except 20-Mule Team Borax from time to time, but they remained beige. The ALL F&C liquid brightened them up, once I realized it might be the CS. CS got things clean so I saved it for the darker colors. I don't use it at all in our FL washer. It leaves a weird film on the drum and is highly alkaline, a little more than other regular powder detergents. (I've read a lot of MSDS.... am I crazy?-LOL-please don't answer that!)

I always pre-treated and still do with our FL washer. Why 'nuke' the entire load of laundry when only a few spots need it? That's my theory.

When nothing else gets a greasy spot out, gently massaging a small amount of original type Dawn dishwashing liquid (no jazzed up versions) and re-washing in the warmest/hottest possible water the color can take take, always gets it out. Dawn is what is used to wash water fowl after oil spills and works great on grease of any type. I learned about it on another forum, where someone whose husband is a car mechanic swore by it on his work clothing. I tried it, and she was right.


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RE: ... just one tablespoon of detergent ?

Sshrivastava, not only do I want to tell you how much I enjoyed and agree with your political rant above (YES) but for those oil spots on darks, I highly recommend pre-treating and then washing in Cheer DARKS liquid, I believe it is called now.
Pat


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