Side note:

Re: my order of Persil Sensitive that is very late: I complained on Amazon site and left a message for the Better Products company that I ordered the Persil from on June 1st. This past Saturday, it still was not here. Well, the Persil just arrived, Fed Ex with an apology note stating their stock from Germany was delayed. They put in a container of Vernel fabric softener for their inconvenience to me.

So, now I can smell the Persil sensitive. It smells nice as I smell bag. I will have to wait now until I have some more dirty clothes to try it, maybe tomorrow.

mielemaid, Tide is only one American detergent. There are many others. I've used other HE detergents which cost very little and have given great results. I have some Tide HE too, have had no problem with it. I just don't use it as much as I do the others. ;)

I decided to take a look at the user manual for Asko's XXL 4.5 cuft North American machines. Let's compare what Asko says about detergent use versus what Miele says in their manual for the W4842 4.0 cuft machine (what I have). Miele says to use what is recommended by the detergent manufacturer. Asko recommends 2-3 TBS and specifically lists Fab, All, Tide HE, Amway SA8, Fresh Start and Wisk HE. Asko also recommends against the use of liquid detergents due to sudsing issues at temps over 150F.

Just another data point to consider in this discussion.

Here is a link that might be useful: Asko XXL User Manual - see pgs 13-14

@sshrivastava - I looked at that Asko manual and what I find interesting is they say, "ASKO washers use 50% to 75% less detergent than most other washers." Do they mean top-loading or other FLs? This is somewhat confusing (to me).

FWIW, we've had our Miele W4842 for six weeks. Once, for fun, I used the suggested amount of Persil Megaperls on the bag, using their chart for soil level and water hardness, and the laundry was scratchy after it was dried. I figure it was residual detergent. Our water hardness is "average" - 4 grains / avge. 101 ppm according to the city info.

I get very good results with putting half the recommended dose of whatever brand I'm using, but our soil levels are low/average and I usually only fill the washer halfway. If we still had the soccer-playing offspring at home, more detergent would most likely be used.

I think Asko's claim is comparing with traditional front loaders. I don't see anything about the Asko front loaders that would cause them to use less detergent than other front loaders. Especially when you consider the XXL models aren't even manufactured by Asko and do not have much in common with their counter depth Euro-style siblings except the Asko name. Asko makes the same claims regarding detergent use for their smaller, Euro-style machines as well.

The difference in approaches between Miele and Asko to the issue of educating consumers about their machines is quite startling. Asko actually tries to educate its customer while Miele goes with a far more minimal and risk averse approach. If you think about it, Asko is assuming liability by putting a specific dosage recommendation in the manual. Miele is offloading that liability burden to the detergent manufacturers.

I'm curious... Can those of you who have 4+ cuft machines and use 1-2 TBSP of detergent confirm whether this dosage is sufficient to remove stains and soiling from your laundry without a lot of pre-treating?

well i'm not sure what size machine I have but i've been using 2 tablespoons of the Sears Ultra powder and clothes come out clean. I got Cheer regular powder yesterday and use 2.5 tablespoons on whole loads.

Curious what would happen with increased amounts of soap I washed my children's sheets and comforters with extra soap today and my first load with a whole scoop of Sears had to go through 2 extra rinses before I put it in the dryer and my second full load I used 3 tablespoons of Sears and 1 extra rinse was sufficient before putting it in dryer. Sheets and comforters seem to have the same amount of clean though I don't notice a difference good or bad.

As you must surely have read by now, I have the older Euro-style front loaders: Askos, Miele 1918s and 1986s and I can "confirm" that I use one tablespoon (give or take a scootch as I use a green Charlie's scoop) of regular Cheer per load without a lot of pre-treatment for overall soiling.

Do I generally pretreat stains, of course! What kind of stains?

All blood that I know about ahead of time. I use saliva of the person whose blood it is if possible (gross, I know, but it really works), or long, very cold, saline, soaks ahead of time.

Grease and oil spots on clothing (either cooking or eating mishaps, or farm and machinery contact). I use Shout for those, spray on ahead of time. If the item has already been washed - and this is usually farm axle/bearing grease on Carhardt overalls here - then I use a de-greaser like Go-Jo or Dawn degreaser.

Manure, pee and general animal/dairy slop: I soak item in borax/water overnight.

Ink and sharpie marker: acetone from reverse side, blot until gone.

Chimney soot and creosote: ammonia or, if stubborn, diluted fireplace glass cleaner which is a mild form of lye.

Grass and ground-in knee dirt from gardening and farm field work: Shout, or some of my left-over ERA liquid and soak.

Paint: That proprietary paint remover product.

Tomato and fruit stains and glop when canning: shout and/or clorox soak if white, or sodium percarbonate soak, if coloured.

Ring around the collar on farm clothes: shout from time to time.

Ring around the collar on white dress shirts: shout every time, which I hate, but I am married to a man with a ring around the color creating neck.

In short, I treat every discrete stain that I know about before the wash because that's when it is still unset-in and most removable and because I believe in using the least amount of product across the board for everything is better. Better for my pocketbook, the environment, and most of all, better for the clothes as all products have some consequences to the fabrics themselves.

Since I use fairly hot temps (though always with a profile temp rise) and vigorous washing, I need to make sure that I'm not setting a stain if it can be gotten off ahead of time. I would say the sort and pre-treat phase of washing, while critical to my regimen, adds scarcely an extra half-hour per week and I do more than 30 loads every seven days.

I don't know why this seems so unlikely to you. Believe me, if more detergent would make my laundry cleaner, I wouldn't hesitate to use it. And I have tried adding more, especially in the last week or so as this question is being so much discussed right now. I can add up to a bit more than twice what I'm now using without getting excess product problems, but I don't see any additional cleaning, so it seems pointless, to me.

This is so much a function of water chemistry, that the best recommendations is careful on-site testing and dosage adjustment. The parameters are between the least amount for excellent cleaning and the max amount before suds, poor rinsing and deposition in the machine occurs.

Keep in mind that my stain challenges are extreme compared to most suburban households since this is a farm.

Have you tried reducing your dosage to see how that works in your water?

HTH,
L

Do most people just set their washers to do the extra rinse cycle here? Mine will rinse and drain twice before doing the final spin but I can program my washer to do the extra rinse cycle as well and I never have. I wonder if I should set my washer to do the extra rinse now though.

@liriodendron, all I was thinking while reading your post is, "God bless farmers!!" My goodness, that's a lot of crazy stains.

I use a simple laundry bar for many stains and it works amazingly well. Not sure if you have a laundry sink handy to your machines.

I haven't found anything this bar won't remove or diminish significantly.

I have my third rinse selected as I don't like any residual detergent or too much scent.

Here is a link that might be useful: Soap Works Laundry Stain Bar

My machines automatically provide 4 (or 5 on the Asko) rinses. I occasionally add in another, especially if the clothes are visitors' and may have detergent residue in them.

@livebetter: Most of those stains are occasional, or seasonal problems (i.e. grass in summer and chimney soot in winter), aside from grease/oil and manure, which are year round, alas. I was just describing the variety of stains I routinely pretreat and don't rely on the washer and washing product to handle singlehandedly. I realize that many (most?) people believe that the washer should remove all stains, but I don't share that opinion. Since it can't tell if an individual stain is removed, there's no reason to find fault with it (or the detergent brand or quantity) if it fails. The washer must provide excellent overall cleaning and rinsing and removal of body soil and dirt, but actual stains (ink, oil, grass, blood, etc.), that's another story.

L.

@liriodendron, I agree on pretreating. People want the "magic bullet" detergent to remove everything and I think that's overkill for 90% of the laundry. I also pretreat what I know about.

I don't think I've ever done a third rinse, unless it looked a little foamy for some unknown reason, then I run an added rinse cycle. I always program second rinse (and I think it really is a second rinse, not a third) because I just think it's better to do so.
I'm curious though why I don't see more people using Charlie's Soap. I use 1 Tablespoon for a large load; I don't have a need for fabric softener or dryer sheets and everything is bright and white and smells clean. I do use oxyclean in most washes and pre-treat stains with oxyclean spray. Is there a reason why I should not be using Charlie's soap anymore? I have about 5 gallons of it in the garage -- I hope that's not what burned out my washer bearings!

@annie1971 - I used CS (Charlies Soap) for 4 1/2 years in our old TL washer, until this past April. It did a good job and I was pleased. During the final year I used it, I noticed the whites had become ecru/beige. Washing them in All F&C brightened them up, but when I returned to CS they got dingy beige/ecru. Now that I have discovered F&C detergents with enzymes, everything is even cleaner.

A year ago, my DH developed a mystery rash. Dermatologist gave him a cream that helped, but they could not figure out what it was, even after two biopsies. After I stopped using CS, the rash has disappeared by 99%. Since then, I've read that some babies get rashes when their cloth diapers are washed with CS, so perhaps something is in it to which my DH developed an allergy over time, like the coconut fats (or whatever it is) base.

The first time I used the CS in my new FL washer, there was a film all over the inside of the drum afterwards. I don't know what it was, but it freaked me out and no other detergent has done that. In my TL, as the TL was filling, the CS always seemed to foam or suds up. It went away rather quickly, but still .....

I'll never say "never," but for now, I gave away most of my CS and have no plans to use it again.

RE: using less detergent

For what it's worth, yesterday I noticed on the ecoVantage detergent as well as the Biokleen/Bi-O-Kleen (the brands I used yesterday from my stash), they give their dose recommendation for a FL washer, and then they recommend doubling the amount to use for a TL washer.

Wow! This thread is still going. :)

For what it's worth, yesterday I noticed on the ecoVantage detergent as well as the Biokleen/Bi-O-Kleen (the brands I used yesterday from my stash), they give their dose recommendation for a FL washer, and then they recommend doubling the amount to use for a TL washer.

Did they say FL and TL, or did they say HE and "standard" or "non-HE", etc?

My TL washer (Maytag Bravos) is an HE washer, doesn't use nearly as much water as a standard TL w/agitator.

@mara 2008 - Good questions.

Both are labeled HE and do not suds much if at all, even in the rinses.

BioKleen simply says "Top Load" and "Front Load" and does not distinguish whether the TL is HE or water guzzler.

ecoVantage goes into more detail, even for FL washers:

"FRONT LOAD WASHERS:
.5 scoop for small loads
1 level scoop for normally soiled items
1.5 scoop for heavily soiled items
2 scoops for XXL capacity (3.5+cu. ft.)

TOP LOAD WASHERS:
*Increase amt. until desired results are achieved, typically doubling or tripling the amount (2-3 scoops).
In areas with soft water and in homes with a water softener, these amounts may need to be reduced to avoid over sudsing that will reduce the washer's effectiveness. Start by reducing the quantity to half and adjust to match your local water conditions."

I bought the ecoVantage from my Miele dealer. It is a F&C formula and they can't keep it on the shelves, they sell so much of it. I had to wait for a shipment before I could get mine. IMO it cleans well but we're not washing soccer or football stuff anymore; just typical grownup clothes.

@ Cavimum

Can you tell me how many TBSP fit into an EcoVantage scoop? I still have my old stash of EcoVantage, but lost the scoop. I'd love to give it another try.

@ annie1971

The reason I no longer use Charlie's Soap is because it doesn't clean as well as other detergents. After prolonged use of CS, my whites started to look dingy and stains did not come clean. There is nothing more horrifying than pulling "clean" laundry out of your machine and seeing the same stains that were there when you put the dirty laundry into the machine!

I have a whole house softener and used up to 2.5 TBSP of the CS to see if it helped. It didn't. After just one washing in Persil Universal Megaperls (or, I imagine, the US equivalent - Tide HE w/ Bleach), my whites came back to life and stains were gone. In my humble opinion, a detergent is no good if it washes no better than plain water.

BioKleen simply says "Top Load" and "Front Load" and does not distinguish whether the TL is HE or water guzzler.

Yes, this seems to be par for the course for some companies these days; they don't distinguish between HE and non-HE/standard washers.

Your post gave great detailed info, Cavimum. :)

@shrivastava - I lost my ecoVantage scoop, too! It's a conspiracy. LOL
But I seem to remember 30ml as the capacity and am dosing with that number as "one scoop".

CS as no enzymes or oxy bleach, and probably no OBAs. It made no difference on my dark garments, but like I said, over time I saw it on the whites.

What are the ingredients in EcoVantage? Is it different from Charlie's soap? I know it has oxygen bleach but curious what else it has.

ecoVantage(TM) ingredients as listed on label:

"Cleaning surfactant, enzyme stain removers, all-fabric Oxygenated cleaning agent (non chlorine), water softener, washer-protection agent, and color protection ingredient. This detergent contains no phosphates other than trace or incidental amounts."

The label also states that it is:

"-Formulated specifically for HE FL washers, but also works great in TLs.
-Biodegradable; safe for septic systems.
-Kosher approved.
-Phosphate free.
-Sensitive formula, no perfumes or dyes."

Plastic bucket style container (with handle) states 120 loads and I think I paid $40+ sales tax. There are quite a few online vendors for it.

I have not been able to find a web site for this detergent, or figure out who manufactures it, or where. Online vendors call it Asko ecoVantage, so there is or was a relationship with Asko washers at some point. Since my local indy appliance dealer carries it, I didn't pursue it any further. My sales guy said they sell a LOT of it. I should probably get some more soon, as it looks like I'm going to be tied to F&C formulas. The perfumed ones are not working out. (wah!)

@ Cavimum

My EcoVantage ingredients list also states fabric brightener and soil suspension agent - yours does not.

Mystery ... so does it contain OBAs or no??

@ livebetter

This is why I always felt that the "Eco" in EcoVantage was a bit misleading. How ecological is the use of optical brighteners? From what I'm reading around here, not very.

@ Cavimum

I did some calculations based on weight instead of volume. The EcoVantage box contains 3,180 grams of detergent (3.18 kg). I weighed a level tablespoon of the powder at 15.9 g (weighed four times and averaged the results). This gives you right around 200 TBSP per box. Now the box says 120 loads, which means they are calculating 1.7 TBSP per load. That's close enough to 2 TBSP per load, which I'm assuming equals one scoop.

Now remember, this same detergent is sold by Asko for use with its European size front loaders and has been even before the introduction of Asko's XL sized machines. I'm pretty confident this dosing scheme is for 5-6 kg machines, meaning that we need to kick those doses up a notch for our larger 8+ kg machines. My math takes me to 2.5 TBSP for a 4+ cuft 8+ kg machine.That's for a "normal" sized load at normal soiling levels. Add more for packed loads or higher soil levels, use less for small loads. The directions also say to start with half the suggested dose for those with soft water, which would be 1.25 TBSP.

"My EcoVantage ingredients list also states fabric brightener and soil suspension agent - yours does not."

@'sstava - I double-checked the label on ours just now, and I got the list right. So yours is a different formula. HHhmmm.....
The UPC/SKU # on ours is 574-18-00090 with an 8 on the left outside of the bars and a 6 on the right, outside the bars. What does your say?

@ Cavimum

Here is a photo of the label you are talking about, including the ingredients list at the bottom...

{{gwi:1999810}}

... another mystery ...

I have been shopping for a new washer and dryer. The salesman told me about the 1 TBSP rule. However, i recently heard that some people use regular soap in their HE'S. Is this possible? Also, I heard about a product called Summit which freshens and removes lime & rust from machines. What do you think? Im affraid of dry dirty laundry coming out of the washer. Laundry used to be simple.

@ vejoan

Due to the very small amount of water used by front load machines, you need to use HE detergent. Not everyone does. Due to the small amount of water used in front loaders, there is a much greater burden placed on the detergent to properly suspend those soils. Also remember that if one of your clothing articles bleeds color into your wash, that color bleed is much more highly concentrated in the small pool of water at the bottom of your machine. A good detergent needs to keep those concentrated dyes from attaching to your other fabrics.

Imagine a load of clothes in a top loader, sitting comfortably in a tub of water. Now take the same amount of clothes, therefore the same amount of dirt and soil, and put them in a front loader that uses 70%-80% less water. If you could still use in the front loader the same amount of non-HE detergent that you were using in your top loader, you would be fine. Except this usually causes ridiculous amounts of suds. So people who use non-HE detergent in their machines generally reduce the amount so as not to create a lot of suds. Unfortunately, this also reduces the amount of cleaning agents and soil suspension agents to a point where they can't do an adequate job. Over time this results in mold, mildew, gunk and odor.

HE detergent is formulated to give you the right amount of cleaning and soil suspension agents (similar to using a full dose of non-HE detergent) but without all of the suds. You don't want suds in your front loader, since they cushion the fabrics and will negatively impact your machine's ability to clean effectively. There is just a small learning curve here, not a big deal.

The "1 TBSP rule" is pretty much hogwash. Nobody can tell you how much detergent to use unless they know the capacity of your machine, level of soiling and local water hardness. I have a whole house water softener, so my water is 100% soft, and I use 3-4 TBSP of HE detergent in my 4 cuft machine with good results and very little sudsing. I start with half the manufacturer's recommendation and adjust up or down depending on the cleaning level or sudsing.

As long as you use enough HE detergent and perform HOT washes on a regular basis to ensure your machine is kept clean, you won't have any problems. To ensure the minimum amount of issues, make sure you buy a machine with an internal heater that will maintain or boost your wash temperatures.

IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SOFT WATER - STAY AWAY FROM PRODUCTS LABELED AS "SOAP" OR "LAUNDRY SOAP". SOAP COMBINES WITH THE HARDNESS MINERALS IN YOUR WATER TO CREATE SOAP SCUM INSIDE YOUR MACHINE. ONCE THAT HAPPENS, YOU ARE AT A VERY HIGH RISK OF GETTING MOLD, MILDEW AND ODORS. UNLESS YOU KNOW THAT YOU HAVE SOFT WATER, STICK WITH DETERGENTS.

Ditto everything sshrivastava said for HE toploaders too (like my Maytag Bravos).

After using my frontloader for a few weeks at the lowered amount of soap I now notice that I need to add a little more soap to see any real sudsing and I can even use the Wisk HE liquid without risk of oversudsing or requiring tons of rinsing like before.

So I think all the excess sudsing I was seeing and needing to reduce the amount of soap was because of the soap residue left on the clothes from my old top loader and my tendency to overuse laundry soap.

Jewels,

That is very true in my experience. This weekend I was washing (and re-washing) a group of vintage cotton matelasse coverlets and linen tablecloths (farm auction plunder). I did two complete pre-wash/washe cycles on everything without any laundry products before using my normal regimen just to get the old soap out. Although they were badly yellowed from prolonged storage (with tons of detergent residue onboard), in the end all but a few stains (oxides) were removed. I used Cheer, sodium perborate, STPP and 190F with a profile wash. In the early loads I had to quell residual suds, over and over, with grated Ivory soap flakes. My machines worked like champs, but I'm not sure how my septic system is holding up from the unusual amount of laundry.

Keep a measuring device with your detergent, and use it every time to avoid dosage creep over time.

L.

I tried the using less laundry powder than called for, but more than a tablespoon and my husband started stinking. I said something about using deodorant and he said he was using it. Then the light went on, I started using what the package said to use and no more smelly problem. Then I apologized to my husband.

@'stava - I picked up another tub of the ecoVantage powder detergent today, and the ingredients listed are identical to my other tub (posted above) I bought in April 2011. Yours must be an older version, as the web site to buy is different from what is on mine. In fact, today's new bucket has a different website from my last bucket.

@ Cavimum

I believe I purchased my EcoVantage in 2007. I had wondered what is "eco" about optical brighteners, maybe someone over there finally realized the same thing. What is the web address for the new product?

@sshrivastava - the old bucket had www.askotogo.com which is (currently) an invalid web site. The new bucket says:
www.askousa.com/buy-asko/e-biz/ which takes me to an Asko web site. Once there, clicking the link for e-biz brings up warnings in both IE and Firefox that I can continue at my own risk. I'll pass . . .

I do not find http://www.askotogo.com as an invalid site, it's in "under construction" mode.

The warning on Asko E-Biz is related to the site security certificate (SSL) having expired on 8/28/2010. Not unusual that a certificate expiration is overlooked by server management, but this one is a year past-due, which is unusual. Maybe they're no longer doing online sales via the linked service/site, which is amappliancegroup.com and is a valid domain name registered on 3/29/2001, currently expires 6/30/2015. If so, the site webmaster should have removed the E-Biz page or updated the link on it accordingly.

@dadoes - Wow, that is so weird. Perhaps they are re-inventing the site. It definitely did not have that look when I checked it a few months ago.

That amappliancegroup.com was on the lable that 'stava shared here. My label doesn't have that. The 1-800 numbers are all the same, though, to order more. EcoVantage detergent may be a small department that keeps getting bumped around the innards of Asko. As long as they keep making and selling it, I'm fine. My only other choice for HE F&C is the Sears Ultra and I'm not sure I'm sold on it with our water quality.

... meant to say my only other choice for powder HE F&C.....

@cavimum, why wouldn't you consider Seventh Generation Free & Clear? It ranked in the top 10 on Consumer Reports detergent list. Contains enzymes and sodium percarbonate but no brighteners. If it was available here I would try it. I'm considering ordering some up from the US to try it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Seventh Generation Powder F&C

@livebetter - I tried 7th Gen. "Hypoallergenic" powder detergent several years ago, did the entire week's laundry in it all in one day. The next day, I broke out in a horrible itchy rash. $90US later for a doctor visit and Kenalog shot (no nat'l health care down here), I had to rewash everything, and never used it again. I won't ever try it again. Been there, done that.

@cavimum, what could be in there? Obviously you have some serious sensitive skin issues.

FWIW, Seventh Gen reformulated their powders very recently (although I'm sure you'd be too gun shy to try again).

If you're reactions are so severe how do you ever try new products without fear?? You must just stick to what you know won't cause a reaction.

Don't get me going on health care ... it's got its positives and its negatives. People in this country run to the doctor for EVERYTHING (kid has the sniffles ... better run to the doctor).

My BIL has wealthy clients who actually fly to the US for specialized treatment if needed. In Canada they may have long waits (thanks to health care).

But I digress ... :)

In the good ol' US of A, a large segment of our population believes that those without health insurance should just die. People on that side of the aisle will disagree, but that is the net result to those who are not insured. If the health issue doesn't kill you, the bills that come afterward certainly will. The only way out of that is bankruptcy, but that's good once every ten years and it screws with other aspects of your life. And, you need money to file a bankruptcy and be represented by a competent attorney.

Too many people in this society, at least, have very little compassion for those who are less fortunate. While most civilized countries in the world care for those who encounter unfortunate times, in our country we tell people that they need to care for themselves. When a hurricane ravages the east coast, we are told by a small group of terrorists who are holding our government hostage - we can't provide emergency disaster relief unless we cut the budget elsewhere. Eric Cantor, I'm sure the people in your home district in Virginia are in love with your position now that they have been ravaged by a hurricane. Feels different when the shoe is on the other foot, doesn't it? And where were all of these self-labeled "fiscal conservatives" when their leader, George W Bush, launched two wars that were never paid for and were kept off the budget and turned a budget surplus into a deficit?

But I digress. I am seriously considering a move to Canada if the Republicans win in 2012. Our country is heading for disaster in a very big way, either with more failed Republican economic policies or with them holding the government hostage as they have been since the beginning of this year. Thank god I can legally marry my partner of six years in Canada and obtain citizenship/residency with a minimum of fuss. America is no longer the land of the free, it's the land where freedom is for sale.

@livebetter - The Seventh Gen. powder at that time apparently had a bad problem with high residue. Not long after the fact, I found test results on the internet (on a cloth diaper forum, I think, or the Country Save web site)using black fabrics, that showed Seventh Generation having a very high residue. That alone may have been the problem. But, one bitten . . .

The All F&C works well for us, as well as the ecoVantage powder.

@ Cavimum

You should always take those "test results" with a grain of salt. Isn't it funny how the tests always favor the detergent manufacturer who is promoting the results? Look at the Charlie's Soap web site. There you can find a chart showing how cleanly rinsing Charlie's Soap is, and how horrible Tide and other products are because items washed in those products weighed up to 4% more after washing and drying compared to those items washed in Charlie's Soap. The assumption CS is making is that the additional weight must be undesirable "build-up" or nasty fillers that don't rinse away. They are trying to scare you. But I think equating an increase in dry laundry weight to harmful build-up is wrong. Look at Tide Total Care. It is supposed to leave behind protective agents on your clothes to soften them and lubricate the fibers for a "like new" feel. Is that bad? The funnies part in all of this is that CS claims its product rinses as clean as plain water... and guess what? It's as effective as washing in plain water as well.

Charlie's Soap's statements are absurd if you think about it. My washer takes 8 kg of dry laundry, but usually I end up washing about 6 kg (3/4 full). According to CS, if I were to wash that 6 kg load in Tide then the dry weight should increase by 4%. That means the laundry weight would have to increase by 1/2 lb. Funny... the amount of detergent used to wash that load only weighs 75 g (filled to line 3 of Tide HE w/ bleach liquid), or 0.16 lbs. What CS is claiming in its "study" is impossible, unless somehow the quantity of my detergent is increasing itself by a factor of three inside the machine and none of it is rinsing off. Divine intervention is required in order to make the CS claims true.

I have started to eschew most natural detergents of late. After switching back to Tide HE and Persil, it's quite obvious that the natural products are pretty ineffective. I was hopeful that my whole house water softener would make these natural products as effective as their mainstream grocery store counterparts, but sadly that is not the case. Whites turn grey over time, stains are faded but not removed, and prevention of color transfer in mixed loads is not handled as well. My colored laundry is vivid again and my whites are truly white. There is nothing I hate more than washing a load for an hour or more and still seeing stains that were not removed. While we may sleep better at night for using natural laundry detergent, we may be doing so in dirty sheets.

@cavimum, it was Country Save. Did you ever try Country Save since they "claim" to have no residue? I have to agree (somewhat) with sshrivastava re: these tests.

However, I will disagree with the statement about green detergents.

I find it interesting that you (sshrivastava) with your soft water have so many laundry issues. I have moderately hard water and two small boys to deal with. For 3 years I have used mostly "green" detergents with some conventional when needed.

I don't have dingy whites or stains. NO stains. People often comment on how I keep my kids socks so clean.

I've never been a big fan of the green (really basic ingredient) options (like Charlie's, Country Save, Nellie's). I have used Shaklee Get Clean, Seventh Generation, BioKleen, Method, Greenworks ... used with oxygen bleach and no issues here.

I do use Tide or Persil if I feel it's necessary. I did tea towels today on hot, extra white, extended, sensitive with Tide HE + sodium percarbonate + borax with vinegar in the rinse. Out of 25 towels, one came out with slight stains still. I pretreated that towel and next time I'm sure it will come out perfect.

Let's be real though, the stains on my tea towels are not the same as washing sheets weekly. Vaska + oxygen bleach on my sheets has kept them white and clean.

Keep in mind, part of the "dingy white syndrome" could be related to lack of optical brighteners (if you were using green detergents without them). Things maybe didn't "appear" white.

@ livebetter

Good point about the OBAs. I went the Charlie's Soap route for a couple of months. I felt my washing results were initially good, however over time the whites lost their sparkle and stains would not come out. I mean the stains would be faded, but you could still see them. It's possible that the "dingy" white I'm referring to is a true, natural white without the effect of OBAs. However, comparing the two, I must admit that I prefer the look of my whites with OBAs. The difference is especially noticeable on darker clothing with white trim or stripes. With natural detergents, that white trim goes grey since I wash those items with similar darker items. With Tide, Persil, etc. the trim stays bright white.

I still use Vaska on my lightly stained items, especially bath towels. Nothing beats the fluffiness I get with Vaska on towels. I wouldn't say that I have a lot of laundry "issues", rather that I'm somewhat OCD and talk about more things laundry related than most people. The one area where I really struggle is with oil spots on dark clothes. Even having the best machine on the market with soft water using the best detergents, I still get clothes with dark spots where the oily stain used to be. Sure, pre-treating will take care of it, but I'm not really big on pre-treating and sometimes you just miss a few spots. The problem is, these spots are not visible on clothing after you remove it from the washer, only once they are dried. When clothes are wet, they take on a darker appearance which blends in with the spots, but once dried you can see the darker spots. These spots are always where I had a food or oily stain previously, not elsewhere. Since these spots show up exactly where the food stains used to be, it's not related to fabric softener, dryer sheets, leaking oil in the machine or anything like that (thank god!).

I've purchased Biz liquid additive w/ enzymes, which does make the situation a little better, although the spots are still visible albeit more faded. This is a battle I can't win. Although I have to tell you, I don't recall having this issue with my Neptune back in 2001. But back then, I blissfully used a full dose of non-HE liquid detergent and had great results. Today, detergent dosing doesn't seem to impact the stains. Whether I use a quarter dose, half dose, or full dose - the stains remain unaffected unless pre-treated.

Am I crazy?

"Am I crazy??" I'll plead the Fifth.... just teasing!!! As the saying goes, "Birds of as feather . . . "

I used CS for a few years and whites became beige. I used no other laundry additives except 20-Mule Team Borax from time to time, but they remained beige. The ALL F&C liquid brightened them up, once I realized it might be the CS. CS got things clean so I saved it for the darker colors. I don't use it at all in our FL washer. It leaves a weird film on the drum and is highly alkaline, a little more than other regular powder detergents. (I've read a lot of MSDS.... am I crazy?-LOL-please don't answer that!)

I always pre-treated and still do with our FL washer. Why 'nuke' the entire load of laundry when only a few spots need it? That's my theory.

When nothing else gets a greasy spot out, gently massaging a small amount of original type Dawn dishwashing liquid (no jazzed up versions) and re-washing in the warmest/hottest possible water the color can take take, always gets it out. Dawn is what is used to wash water fowl after oil spills and works great on grease of any type. I learned about it on another forum, where someone whose husband is a car mechanic swore by it on his work clothing. I tried it, and she was right.

Sshrivastava, not only do I want to tell you how much I enjoyed and agree with your political rant above (YES) but for those oil spots on darks, I highly recommend pre-treating and then washing in Cheer DARKS liquid, I believe it is called now.
Pat