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| Today we had a service call from our favourite Miele Senior technician. He said to NEVER use vinegar in the washing machine or the dishwasher Yes, it shines the stainless, but he said it totally eats and rots the rubber hoses and seals. He went on to say that they can always tell the machines that are used with vinegar. He says hoses and rubber seals and parts many times just crumble in his hands, when service is performed!
He said yes it is chemical free, but it is NOT good for the machines. Liquid fabric softener is 100% safe, when used as directed & with normal use...it does NOT build up or gunk the machine (especially if a regular clean machine cycle is done). |
Follow-Up Postings:
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- Posted by mysteryclock (My Page) on Tue, Feb 23, 10 at 21:41
| So these hoses and seals can stand up to 60C-95C hot water, highly alkaline detergents, stain-eating enzymes, oxygen bleach and even caustic chlorine bleach but can't handle less than a cup of vinegar diluted in a few gallons of rinse water?? I think he was trying to sell you some more fabric softener IMO.... |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Tue, Feb 23, 10 at 21:45
| Although diluted, vinegar IS an acid, so it's not inconceivable. |
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- Posted by mysteryclock (My Page) on Tue, Feb 23, 10 at 22:14
| True, but vinegar is a very dilute, weak acid... you can eat it, after all! And Miele's own "washing machine cleaner" is, from what I understand, concentrated citric acid which would seem counter-intutitive if the hoses and seals are that acid sensitive. |
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- Posted by suburbanmd (My Page) on Tue, Feb 23, 10 at 22:31
| For what it's worth, the maker of Senseo coffee machines says that vinegar can damage them, and recommends citric acid instead. |
Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.senseo.us/Style Library/Senseo/Content/Appliances/Leaflet s/Descaling.pdf
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| Mystery clock...The Miele tech was not trying to sell or push anything he's a Senior Technician for California! He specifically said it does not matter if one uses Downy, Snuggle, Miele Care Collection or German Vernel softener. ALL Miele units are factory tested with softener use! He said the chemical makeup of vinegar is not suitable for the rubber, seals and some plastics! Any fabric softener is not only safe, but recommended by Miele & used by Miele! He said that vinegar is actually bad for all makes of dishwashers and washing machines....German, American or Korean. It is up to you, if you do not want to believe him, or argue with him. May I ask, are you a factory trained Miele technician, with almost 20 years of Miele experience? |
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| I've been using vinegar instead of fabric softener in my GE for about 3 years now. Absolutely no problems. I understand the idea behind it because vinegar is acidic but mystery clock has a point. Wouldn't bleach do just as much, if not more, damage? |
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- Posted by lazygardens (My Page) on Tue, Feb 23, 10 at 23:34
| Chemically, there is a difference between vinegar (acetic acid) and citric acid. But it's not much. Both are weak acids. |
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- Posted by regus_patoff (My Page) on Wed, Feb 24, 10 at 2:32
| We've been using 1/2 cup of vinegar in the F/S dispenser or our LG washer for years with no problems. |
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| Wow, thanks for the tip, larsi! I just got a new Miele washer and I put vinegar in it only twice. I suppose it would take many years to do the real damage. When you think about it, since vinegar is released in the final rinse cycle, some of it probably sits in the drain/pump/hoses etc. until the next load happens which could be days. My question is, why doesn't the darn Owner's Manual tell us what not to use? (besides solvents and gasoline) I'm confused about bleach as well...I've read in so many places not to use bleach in a front loader, yet, there is a bleach compartment, and the Miele manual says to use !/2 cup bleach for the "Clean" cycle. What about Mule Team Borax? Is that safe? Anyone? I wonder if she could handle a fifth of Vodka! :) (she might go walkin' off!) Shoot I think I'll just stick to Persil,... |
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| I have been using vinegar (1/4-1/3 c.) in the rinse in our F/P since we purchased it in 2001 and have never had any problems or repairs with our machine. In fact, vinegar in the rinse was recommended by the technician in order to remove hard water mineral deposits on some part on the machine. -Grainlady |
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| Being curious about it, have done some research I have had a dog and did his laundry with LCB flushed in the cooldown before main wash drain. The poor pet has passed, the 26 y.o. miele is still working (as 2nd washer, the daily driver is the 11 y.o.) Miele Professional machines DO have a LCB compartement. (italian) (german) " Se si usano cloro o prodotti che lo meaning " If chlorine or chlorine-based products are used, be aware they may cause corrosion and, on particular circumstances, they may also lead some parts to malfunctioning" Monaw, the american W48XX and euro (horizontal drum) toploader mieles have a fiberglass outer tub, that's far less prone to LCB oxidation than stainless steel. I guess that's the very reason they confide in the LCB based clean cycle. I'd also say that if you'll run a couple of loads on the very hot/sanitize temp twice a month with powdered detergent, you'll never need to run the clean tub thing. Today in Europe people rarely wash hotter than 140°F and don't have mold problems at all ( and no "clean tub" things). IMHO the "clean tub" is a (partial) recovery mean for "cold wash only" people disasters |
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- Posted by cryptandrus (My Page) on Wed, Feb 24, 10 at 8:58
| hidroman, you said: the american W48XX and euro (horizontal drum) toploader mieles have a fiberglass outer tub, that's far less prone to LCB oxidation than stainless steel. I guess that's the very reason they confide in the LCB based clean cycle. can you tell me what the outer tub on the Miele W3033 is made of? stainless steel or fiberglass? Thanks! |
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| hidroman, my daughter speaks Italian. I'll have her translate the warning and I'll post it later today. You're probably right about the Clean cycle...with all the stinky washers in the US that was pretty clever of Miele to include that feature for potential buyers, especially those coming from top loaders such as myself. With all of the horror stories online about mold problems, I almost skipped the front loader all together, especially knowing two gals that own them that happen to have very stinky laundry... I guess I shouldn't have anything to worry about since I run our sheets through sanitize once a week then. (dogs in bed) :) I wonder why Miele didn't make US washers with the steel outer drum? |
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| Guess it's SS. Apart of the key-only/ no-dial thing, it looks identical to the W3000 euro serie. IIRC the only euro key-only models are in W4000 and W6000 series |
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| Hi Monaw, I guess it has to do with production cost. Metals are getting even more expensive (go figure here in EU in latest years there are even copper wiring thieves on railways). Both the W48XX (that cost 150 USD less than the W3033) and euro toploaders are niche products = higher depreciation rate on each item. That said, fiberglass is also used in nautical production, so there aren't "guinea pig" issues. Wait for your daughter feedback to check my english skills :) |
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| I cant comment on if the vinager hurts a machine or not, Ive never used it. My tab water has a ph of 10ppm, so I dont think a little vinager would hurt it if I did use it. Yes fabric softener and detergent both do build up in your machine. If in doubt, fill your washer with warm or hot water and watch the clean water have soap in it when it washes. Even though I really try not to overuse soap and softener, I am not the only one in this house that washes clothers, and yes I found in my own machine, soap in a empty running wash and was not happy with it. Washing machine class 101 started after that! Most people use water the bottle of detergent says to use, not what is actually needed for a lod to be done. |
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- Posted by suburbanmd (My Page) on Wed, Feb 24, 10 at 10:15
| O-Ring Materials Compatible with Vinegar O-Ring Materials Compatible with Citric Acid Just a glance tells you that citric acid is a safer bet, when dealing with seals made of an unknown material |
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| I specifically asked Speed Queen in an email to them about using Vinegar with our washer and the response back was that it's fine and actually should help with water/soap build up. |
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- Posted by mysteryclock (My Page) on Thu, Feb 25, 10 at 15:22
| Well if you're adding vinegar (an acid) into clothes saturated with detergent (a base), isn't it going to get neutralized as it reacts with the leftover detergent? That is sort of the whole point in adding it, after all. Once that occurs, I don't think it could hurt anything since it is no longer acidic, by definition, right? |
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| I've used it for 5 years in my Duet and had no problems. |
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| Well it cleaned the mess out of mine today, as I made a post about it on here and everything I have read on it on the interet says you can use it is a washer, FL or TL. |
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- Posted by whirlpool_trainee (My Page) on Fri, Feb 26, 10 at 6:33
| This was taken from the British G2833 (LaPerla) dishwasher manual: Rinse Aid [...] Alternatively, it is possible to use Do not use vinegar with a higher So I guess it's alright to use vinegar in the washer. Alex |
Here is a link that might be useful: scroll to page 22
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- Posted by andrelaplume2 (My Page) on Fri, Feb 26, 10 at 13:29
| ...maybe they just use junkier O rings! |
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- Posted by melodydf1953 (My Page) on Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 17:00
| Interesting posts. I use vinegar in rinse for sanitation purposes. I wash aunt's clothes and she is in a nursing home. Has some accidents. She also has sensitive skin so can't use fabric softeners. Any other suggestions for sanitation? |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 17:40
| I don't believe vinegar should be used for sanitation - it has no anti-microbial action. If you want to sanitize, use high temperatures and bleach. Vinegar will do nothing for sanitization. |
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| Is it true that vinegar in a front load will show how much soap the top load actually left? |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 19:29
| Are you referring to the "residue myth" as I like to call it? The first time I heard of such a thing was when I read my Asko user manual. I washed all of my clothes without detergent expecting some sort of suds explosion, but nothing happened. Not one bubble, and the water was clear. I can't imagine how much detergent someone must be using, and how poorly their machine must rinse, in order to have enough residue built up in their clothing to show suds when they are washed in a front loader. Some people say they've seen it, but I just don't buy into it. Similarly, I don't buy into the claim that Charlie's Soap will clean your clothes (and washer) of residue from previous detergents. If we had that much residue in our clothes, don't you think they would feel stiff and scratchy? It's nice to claim things when you can't actually observe the claim to verify its accuracy. It's kind of like believing in God - it takes an enormous leap of faith to believe something that you can't see, observe, or measure, yet people still believe. Use the minimum amount of detergent required to clean your clothes, rinse sufficiently, and the rest will work itself out. If there is any "residue" in your clothes, why would you need another detergent to clean it out? Wouldn't a simple rinse suffice? Common sense prevails here. |
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- Posted by mysteryclock (My Page) on Wed, Mar 3, 10 at 19:36
| sshrivastava, from what I've read vinegar can kill mold/germs/etc. but has not been "certified" as such because who would want to buy a food product that carried a label like Lysol on it! That being said, it was ~undiluted~ vinegar that was suggested for this use, so I agree that as a rinse agent diluted in gallons of water it probably wouldn't do much other than neutralize some of the soap. If you feel you really need to sanitize, bleach or Lysol concentrate (in the little brown bottle -- *not* the all-in-one cleaner kind) is your best friend. Unless your washer can do a real euro-style "boilwash" @ 95C I wouldn't trust temperature alone. Then again, the physical action of washing (wet clothes rubbing together) coupled with alkaline detergent is a relatively inhospitable environment for many germs, and should be good enough for all but the most extreme cases. CA-MRSA is removed by "normal laundry procedures" according to the CDC (see below) |
Here is a link that might be useful: CDC CA-MRSA guidelines
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| All I know is that I'm taking the gallon of vinegar out of my laundry room. Hopefully I won't have nightmares. |
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| I remember reading about people who went from a TL to a FL and were told that the first few times you may not have to add detergent, due to residual soap left behind. I can beleive this some cases. I know a couple with 4 kids, so they have to wash daily. They have a conventional top loader, the wife uses one full cap of 3x detergent, 1 full cap of Clorax 2 (to the top of the cap lid) and a half of cup of oxyclean per full load in a GE TL...and wonders why her clothes dont feel soft and clean. Her husband does laundry too, he told me one day that his wife uses too much soap and when he does clothes, he either uses little detergent or non at all LOL. He ask me to watch what she puts in there because I didnt beleive him |
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| I remember reading about people who went from a TL to a FL and were told that the first few times you may not have to add detergent, due to residual soap left behind. Yes, that's what I was trying to remember. LOL, that's the point isn't it, even the finest products are miss used! |
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- Posted by vampiressrn (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 8:37
| Wow...glad this thread is here. I have used vinegar for years in machines. Hmmmmm...may rethink. |
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| I did find that my first load of clothes with Charlie's Soap was a bit stiff, though the stiffness disappeared with a 2nd wash of the same clothes. I don't think there was much buildup in the machine itself, but there definitely was in the clothes, even though I hadn't used fabric softener in years. Some ingredients in conventional detergents are designed to be left in the clothes to keep them soft. It may take 2 launderings to totally remove these. When those special ingredients are only halfway washed out, they do leave clothes a bit stiff. |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 15:12
According to The Wall Street Journal: Seventh Generation's co-founder, Jeffrey Hollender, wonders why more people haven't stumbled upon laundry's big, dirty secret: "You don't even need soap to wash most loads," he says. The agitation of washing machines often does the job on its own. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Seventh Generation says
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| Water chemistry, greasy soils, and other such factors disagree with his statement. Coat your hands with grease, cooking oil, or ordinary dirt, then try washing them under running water without soap/detergent vs. with soap/detergent and make note of the difference in results. |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 16:06
| What's interesting is that the statement was made by one of Seventh Generation's co-founders of all people. It's such an anti-establishment statement by a detergent manufacturer to say, essentially, that you don't really need our product. I give him props for that. If you rubbed your hands under running water long enough, I suspect you will remove the majority of the grease or dirt. Soap accelerates the process. With enough mechanical action, hot water, and time you probably would never need detergent. But because we don't want to shower for an hour and rub our skin red to clean ourselves, we use soap. Also, detergents contain ingredients to keep our machines clean. If someone were to only use water for laundry and nothing else, I wonder what the inside of that machine would look like after 6 months. Yikes! |
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| and smell? |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 18:34
| One of my dogs just let one go as I was reading that. Nice. |
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- Posted by regus_patoff (My Page) on Fri, Mar 5, 10 at 21:32
| sshrivastava said: < ... With enough mechanical action, hot water, and time ... ahh... but most now use cold water for washing (I use warm) Ever try to wash your hands with soap and cold water ? |
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| sshrivastava, I'm not sure what belief in God has to do with this thread, or forum, for that matter. But since you brought it up, I would point out the fact that man is not only a physical creature; he also has a mind, will, emotions, and spirit. Many people do report experiencing God on a spiritual level. Others cannot disprove their experience. Back to the forum and thread: The Reader's Digest article linked by Suburbanmd reports that vinegar does kill bacteria; I have also read that info elsewhere. Since that article was linked by a doctor, I would think he most likely agrees with it. If not, he can let us know. |
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- Posted by suburbanmd (My Page) on Mon, Mar 8, 10 at 9:16
| Umm, the "md" in my name is my state, not my degree :-) And I didn't link that particular article. |
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- Posted by regus_patoff (My Page) on Mon, Mar 8, 10 at 11:32
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| Thanks for the correction, suburbanmd. It was regus_patoff who posted the link to the Reader's Digest article about the uses of vinegar. |
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| >He said yes it is chemical free, No, it isn't. What, exactly, does he think that "chemical" means? sshrivastava, you just get a kick out of being a complete a-hole? Or does being an atheist mean to you that you don't have to treat others with a shred of decency or respect? |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Sat, Mar 13, 10 at 9:59
reyesuela said: sshrivastava, you just get a kick out of being a complete a-hole? Or does being an atheist mean to you that you don't have to treat others with a shred of decency or respect What the hell are you talking about? |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Sat, Mar 13, 10 at 10:10
| regus_patoff, You could get your hands clean but you'd be rubbing all day long. Detergent accelerates the process. Cleaning, assuming a supply of water, would be largely a function of detergent, mechanical action, and water temperature. Reduce any one of those factors and you have to compensate by increasing one or more of the others. |
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| larsi, I have to disagree with the tech's comments about how "bad" vinegar is for the washers. |
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| I've used vinegar in my Duet for over 8 years. My husband put a new motor in about a year ago, and he just recently replaced the bearings and rebuilt the pump while he was at it. It's as good as new now. the vinegar has not ruined my hoses, or any other part on that washer. It's a better washer now than the new Duets. Hoses are supposed to be replaced periodically anyway because they deteriorate with age. |
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| Whew! |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Sat, Aug 11, 12 at 14:32
| I, too, don't find anything wrong with using vinegar. Vinegar, right out of the bottle, is a pretty mild acid. A small amount of that mild acid is then dissolved in your machine with several gallons of water. It's truly harmless. |
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| Duet is now almost 7.5 yrs old. I've used vinegar in the rinse all this time, although I do not see how you could possibly use 1/2 cup, even if you fill the Fab softener dispenser AND bleach dispenser with vinegar, I don't think that would amount to 1/2 cup. At any rate, I'm not exactly sure how much vinegar I'm using. I do know that on colored and lights I dilute 1/2 vinegar and 1/2 fab softener in the fab softener dispenser, and then fill the bleach dispenser with vinegar. On whites, I do not use fabric softener and just fill the fab softener dispenser with vinegar, and the bleach dispenser with bleach. |
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- Posted by lazygardens (My Page) on Thu, Aug 16, 12 at 12:00
| Ok ... I'm going to go all chem-geek here. Citric acid is way stronger than acetic acid, as far as acting "acidly" goes: It has 3 protons in its structure; therefore it has 3 ionization constants. The first ionization constant Acetic acid is a monoprotic acid, which has only one carboxylic group and its ionization constant Now, the ratio of K(c) and K(a) shows you: K(c) / K(a) = (7.4 x 10^-4) / (1.75 x 10^-5) = 42 Conclusion: Citric acid is 42 stronger than acetic acid. ============ It would depend on the amount of their cleaner, and how much of each acid is available for reacting with the fittings. |
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- Posted by lazygardens (My Page) on Thu, Aug 16, 12 at 12:09
| And, looking at the table of what material o-rings need to be to be safe for vinegar versus citric acid solutions, I note that ALL the common materials (Butyl rubber, silicon, teflon) are rated as OK for both. The one flop - polyacrylate - is a stellar material to use with solvents. It will never show up in your clothes washers |
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| lazy, you didn't mention neoprene. |
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- Posted by jgrimes227 (My Page) on Tue, Oct 9, 12 at 21:02
| Read most of these posts and for the most part a vital element has been missed. Having a sparkly clean washing machine means almost nothing. The top loading washing machine has two important elements. A large circular basket that holds the clothes. It has a bunch of holes in it. The second part is a large tank that the basket sits in. It is this tank that gets filthy from soap scum. If you were to remove the basket (the one you can see with the holes in it) you would see the interior of the larger tank. If you machine has any mileage on it at all you can scrape the soap scum off this tank with a putty knife. It is the soap scum that you want to remove and why hot water and soaking are important. Nothing but water is in this tank so nothing can scrub this soap scum off other than some kind of solvent and soaking - Unless, of course, you remove the basket - this would mean finding out how to raise the framing on the top of the washer, removing the agitator, and then removing a rather large bolt and removing the basket - this is a fairly labor intensive job and why it is important to use some kind of cleaner that will remove this scum - and why it is also important to use the minimum amount of detergent. I do NOT have the answer for what to use to get this job done. I am sure there is something that will dissolve this soap scum - but I don't know the definitive answer. - but I can assure you of one thing - have a sparkly clean washing machine on the visible surfaces is nothing but eye candy and has no relation whatever to a clean machine where it counts. |
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| jgrimes227, one site I looked at claims that vinegar and baking soda in a hot cycle will remove soap scum. I have NO idea if that really works. just mentioning it and let you all decide if that works or not. |
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| The difference between using bleach and vinegar in a washing machine boils down to basic chemistry. Vinegar is acidic and bleach is a base, ergo, each will interact differently with the rubber hoses, plastic parts and coating on the inside of the drum of your washing machine. Vulcanized rubber & most plastics are designed to stand up to basic solutions, but not acidic ones. A stronger acidic solution will accelerate the process of plastic & rubber degredation. |
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| Much will depend on the washing machine you have and whether it is older or one of the newer machines. My washing machine is an older Maytag 20+ years old and is still working like a charm. Been using vinegar in the rinse water for many, many years and have no problems. |
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- Posted by 0ttovonostrovo (My Page) on Thu, Feb 28, 13 at 8:32
| I'm with you krissie, my Maytag washing machine is from 1973 (we bought it brand new for our mother, it was her first new appliance) and we've used vinegar for years through the rinse cup without catastrophic problems. Also have a Kitchenaid dishwasher from the same era and I use vinegar to get rid of any lime build up. |
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- Posted by tabteacher (My Page) on Sat, Mar 9, 13 at 2:19
| I add vinegar to my dishwasher with every load. A repairman came to do a recall--I guess that is what you call it--& he said adding vinegar was great to do & would help my dishwasher last longer. |
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- Posted by sshrivastava (My Page) on Sun, Mar 10, 13 at 16:05
| Basic knowledge of chemistry should lead one to believe that combining vinegar and baking soda will not only lead to a fizzy reaction, but the vinegar and baking soda will neutralize each other. There is no benefit for using this neutralized solution in your laundry. You may as well use water. |
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| Which causes soap scum to form on the outside drum, powdered or liquid laundry detergent? |
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| @patann - A lot of people believe the liquids are more likely to form scum. I don't know if that's true, but it's what I have read. There are many liquid users, however, who say they have no problems. I mostly use powder; I'm not taking any chances. |
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