You may not be aware of this, but sharing patterns like this (ones that are for sale) is not only unfair to the designers who make their living selling patterns, but also illegal. I see WAY too many requests for sharing of copyrighted patterns on this forum. Please, people, if you want a pattern that badly, do the right thing and pay for it. That way the talented knitting and crochet designers that we love can afford to keep making such wonderful patterns!

I'm really glad that you brought this up, paigeknitter, as I've been thinking of the same thing, especially as it seems to be the main purpose of many posts...and, I think it's a problem because people just don't THINK about what it means to get someone's pattern free.....they don't take into consideration that the person spent their time, effort and money to create a pattern and then market it...and if we, as users, don't pay them for their work, it's a bit like picking their pocket.... something most would never do, but there's little difference. Unfortunately many just don't look at things in this light....I, for one, am grateful that someone comes up with a wonderful new pattern and makes it available for ME to use, too...and, I'm always willing to pay for what I use, in the hope of encouraging them to continue creating.... where would we be without these people? Don't they deserve to be paid for their work?

There's another thread on this forum, where several folks want the pattern for the Coffee & Cream Diamonds Throw pattern, which is found on the Mary Maxim website. I put in my two cents' worth about copyright violation, and it seems that someone has taken umbrage at my position. The woman apparently feels that I am infringing upon the purpose of this forum -- to share. Um, I thought it was to share tips and advice, not to violate copyright laws.

Here is a link that might be useful: Coffee & Cream Diamonds Throw

I personally believe sharing knowledge and helpful hints is what this forum is about, not sharing copyrighted patterns.

Moni

My thoughts, exactly, Moni. As it says at the top of this forum, "This forum is for the discussion of knitting, crochet, weaving and other fiber arts. Here we can settle such questions as what is the best way to construct a cozy for your computer." Nowhere in that statement does it say anything to the effect of "this forum is for sharing patterns."

I posted this on the coffee and cream post, but since this thread seems to have become a discussion on copyright, I'm going to repost it here.

I'll be the first to admit, I do not understand coryright laws at all. If a pattern is for sale from a bonafide site, such as Mary Maxim, I have little doubt that those are original, created patterns.

On the other hand, I've seen many a crafter show off an item they've made. They claim they were "doodling" around and came up with the idea. They claim their pattern is now copyrighted and not to take it as your own.

Please tell me what process they went through to get a copyright for that pattern. As most of us realize, there is very little in this world that is truly unique, that we haven't seen in some form or another, from time to time.

Why is it okay to go to the library, borrow a book and copy out a pattern that you want. You're only interest is in the one pattern, not the entire collection. I would think that if that were copyright infringement, the libraries would take precautions to prevent that from happening.

I see no difference in getting a pattern from a borrowed book that someone else, (ie the library) has paid for than getting a copy of a pattern from someone who has paid for it and is willing to share their merchandise.

My only problem with forums and sharing is that when someone makes a request, 30 or 40 people jump in and ask for a copy as well, knowing full well they will most probably never use the item. They just like to collect patterns.

Everyone throws around the words, copyright laws, and I don't think there are a dozen people who actually know just what it entails. I know I don't.

Yarnlover,

If you want free legal advice, you're not going to get it from me. I will say, however, that once someone has written something original down, whether it be pen/pencil on paper, or typewritten by manual or electric typewriter on paper, or on a computer, whether simply electronically stored, printed out, or put on a web page, that "something original" has then been copyrighted by the author.

It's not a difficult concept to understand.

Yarnlover,

Here's something more to "chew on." This is copied/pasted from the Coats & Clark website. As you may or may not be aware, that site has a lot of great, free, patterns available for download. This is the Coats & Clark official Legal Notice with respect to those free patterns:

"Patterns and all copy currently available in our Free Leaflets or on this Website may be copied by users for their own personal use only, but may not be used, reproduced, modified, amended, or distributed in any manner, including in particular, without limitation, for commercial purposes. Any copies made in accordance with this legal notice must bear the copyright notice included on the original."

What this means is that their free patterns and leaflets are free to the original person who downloads/obtains them. That person may not in any way, shape, or form, copy and/or redistribute any of the patters/leaflets to anyone else without the express written consent of Coats & Clark. You cannot download a free pattern and then e-mail it to anyone. You can print it out to hard copy for your own use, but you cannot make another copy and give that second copy to anyone else. If someone else wants the pattern, you can direct them to the Coats & Clark web site so they can download their own copy.

Information for Yarnlover: Many libraries pay an annual fee in order that their patrons may make "fair copies" - that is, a copy for their own personal use. For example, you can borrow a book of shawl patterns, but if you are an average knitter, you shawl will not be done by the time the book is due back at the library. Hence, the "fair copy" - you may copy the pattern for your own use. If your friend admires the shawl and wants to knit it also, she should ideally borrow the book herself and make her own copy.

Copyrights can be tricky. I am the lucky owner of a library of REALLY old (and beautiful!) patterns inherited from my mother and grandmother. The designers of most of them were not credited and are probably long gone, so I let friends borrow and copy the ones they like, keeping the knitting traditions alive. I would not, however, do the same with current books and patterns where the designer is identified and earns a living from the sales.

So much yarn, so many patterns, so little time ...

Anne B

Another point about free vs. for sale patterns; on one of these threads I saw a comment about a pattern being free and now it's for sale. Many designers choose to offer their patterns free for a period of time, then sell them. If you don't get it during the free period, you should pay for it.

If you want to make something from a pattern, then sell the finished items, you need to get permission from the designer and/or publisher of the pattern. I wanted to make a bunch of zippered cosmetic bags for our recent quilt show. I emailed the designer to tell her my intentions and ask her permission, and she very graciously said I could make as many as I wanted for selling at the show, as long as they were made one at a time on my home sewing machine.

Donna

You all need to know that I didn't mean to start a fight over patterns, I am a widow and just need to keep busy crocheting and not much cash to buy, I don't sell any of my things that I make from these patterns, they are given to people who need more warmth and hugs and for gifts to relatives. I think that the point has been made and move on. This is suppose to be a message board for fellow crafters to help each other out and not to complain this much. Bonnie

"This is suppose to be a message board for fellow crafters to help each other out and not to complain this much."

But, Bonniebee, the problem is that this forum has changed from one where folks help each other out with understanding instructions, or how to do a particular stitch, or giving advice on which yarn is best for what project, to one where the vast majority of posts are those asking for patterns to be e-mailed to them for free.

Since NO ONE HERE is a Copyright lawyer, the debate should end.

Bonniebee, Have you visited your local library? They usually have a lot of great books, and it is perfectly acceptable, for you to make copies, if need be, of those patterns you like, as the library pays a fee for the 'fair usage', under the copyright laws. That way you find interesting patterns to use without infringing on the rights of the authors of the books....it's win win!

I am a widow and just need to keep busy crocheting and not much cash to buy

Bonnie, are you a member of ravelry.com? I'm a student and I don't have much money to spend on patterns, either, but Ravelry is a great way to find and access LOTS of free patterns. I use it all the time, along with books from the library. Fortunately for us, there area a lot of wonderful free patterns out there!

Since NO ONE HERE is a Copyright lawyer, the debate should end.

tripleflex, don't be so sure of that! I've encountered people very familiar with copyright laws (lawyers included) on knitting forums, and some of us have done a lot of research in that area. I don't necessarily think the debate should end here, as long as there's understanding and education going on.

i just needed to say something too...this site was a GOD send to someone looking for that special pattern, that they wanted....and now it turned into COPYWRITE WARS... we make the item,we end up giving it away, or selling it...are you saying we have to ask the owner of the pattern...i DON"T think so...cause nobody would be making anything from PATTERNS... we will all have to make our own designs....how many times you've made something and someone likes it, and will ask you for the pattern, you mean to tell me you are going to ask the owner of the pattern if you could give it to your friend, sister, or cousin, i don't think so...think about it...this is really getting ridiculous....

I have contacted the director of the Long Island Library Association and posed my questions to him. The immediate answer I got was that copyright is complicated. Clear answers are not black or white. He is researching it and will get back to me.

However, the one fact he states is on the usuage of "fair copy". So Anne B is correct to that extent. The other point he made was that no libraries in the Long Island Association pay a fee to cover the fact that people may be making copies from the books.

When I hear back from him I will certainly share the information here. It's a lot better to go to a bonafide source, rather than having people who think they know everything killing the fellowship for everyone.

we make the item,we end up giving it away, or selling it...are you saying we have to ask the owner of the pattern...i DON"T think so

You don't have to ask permission of the designer if you're going to give the finished item away, but you do if you're going to sell it. That's the law, and there's no way around it.

I think some people are getting confused here about what's being argued. My original post was about sharing of patterns that are for sale (which is illegal). I have no problem with people sharing free patterns, and encourage it! However, there's another law that comes into play when you want to sell something that you've made using another designer's pattern: even if that pattern is free, you still have to get the designer's permission to sell it.

This stuff may seem trivial and nit-picky to some, but selling patterns is how many of those knit/crochet designers are paying their bills. It is unfair to rob them of that income. In addition, many online knit/crochet forums have been shut down for exactly this kind of thing--illegal sharing of patterns. It's not something to promote, so why not use a place like this to share tips and information, as well as free patterns?

paigeknitter......you mean to tell me that if some one asked you to make something for them,like a sweater, or large afghan,some sort of baby gift, whatever....and the project calls for large amounts of yarn,let alone the time it takes to make it....you are not going to,charge??? ...then you are going to do a search to find every owner of each pattern you used, and ask them if you can charge for your time,and yarn used to make it... i really don't think so.....i could see if someone was taking the patterns, and trying to pass them off as their own,putting their own name on it....and then selling that pattern,that seems more like breaking the law...not just SHARING a pattern, it's no difference if i let someone borrow one of my crochet books.....so i think you are making more at of this then anyone .......

mamalo3, I have in fact contacted designers and asked their permission to sell finished items made from their patterns. I don't want to get in trouble legally, and I've seen it happen to other people.

Letting someone borrow your crochet book is legal, believe it or not. I know it may not make a lot of sense to the layperson, but it is the law--you can lend a book or pattern out to someone to use, but you cannot give them, say, a photocopy of it.

What you call "sharing"--when you send someone a copy of a pattern that you do not have the rights to distribute (such as a pattern that is for sale by the designer)--is actually stealing, in the eyes of the law. For me, it's not just the legal ramifications, but the fact that I'm taking income away from the designer. This is how someone is making her living, and I'm going to respect her right to be fairly paid for her work. Everyone is of course free to do what they like, but I'd rather educate people than see them distributing these paid patterns in ignorance. I know it won't stop everyone, but it will make some people think twice about freely acquiring a pattern they should be paying for.

If you are making money off of someone else's designs, without permission, you are in fact stealing from them. There are so many free patterns available, why do some people insist on taking someone else's creative work and personally gaining from it. Trading copies of copyrighted patterns is a gain, as you don't give one for the other, and you end up with both your original and a new one, as does the receiver. If you each bought and paid for a pattern then switched the originals with each other, the original designer has been paid for each one.

-Babka

you ladies are taking this way to deep......people have been crocheting and selling their items since the craft was invented,it has supported woman,during war time, the depression,divorces,even widows...trying to make extra money,from what ever patterns they could get...so do you realize how many woman would be in jail today.really.and anyway once the designer sells her pattern to say Mary Maxium she signs over her rights to that pattern..

Mamalo3-

The designer sells her rights to Mary Maxim, and it becomes "copyright by Mary Maxim". This is printed on the back page of patterns. As is the phrase: "Reproduction of this pattern in any form (including photostat) is protected by copyright. Any infringement will lead to prosecution."

Many patterns are not copyrighted, so why not just use those? Probably because the copyrighted ones are really cool, designed by very talented people. Please don't cheat those creative people who have spent hours inventing these things.

Copying it a passing it on to a friend most likely won't land you in jail, but broadcasting it over the internet, or profiting from making and selling a bunch of them at a fair would perk up some ears, no doubt.

-Babka

Quote from mamalo3:
>>it has supported woman,during war time, the depression,divorces,even widows...trying to make extra money..... but not from copyrighted patterns.

If you create your own pattern, you can sell it till the cows come home.

And if anyone takes a close look into knitting/sewing/weaving etc. books, you will see that a lot of them have this clause that the items can be copied for personal use, *but not for sale*.

Usually, I have this joke that on this planet, one *can* get away with murder (if you go to the right countries), but you can NOT get away with tax fraud or copyright violation. Next galaxy, perhaps.

Please people, enough said. Enough is enough, stop already. This forum is suppose to be a place to share crochet and knitting ideas, please don't turn it into a discussion board about copyrights and sales.
One person wrote regarding copyrights and everyone jumps on the band wagon. Unless you are a lawyer or have TRUE COPYRIGHTS LAWS without copying and pasting them here then stop.

I have 99.8% crochet books and leaflets that I bought the other .02% are free copies, therefore I do believe that since I bought them there are rightfully mine and I have been going through them and cannot find anything that says you CANNOT sell thing you have made. Once you have purchased the books/patterns the designer has already made what their money (re: the sale of that book/pattern) they is no law in the land that can make a person pay for that merchandise twice. The products are then yours, you purchased the yarn/thread etc, your time therefore you sell it if you so choose as long as you do not take credit for the pattern or sell in bulk, like to stores/merchants etc.

I do not see why you would want to ask a designer for permission to sell something you made after purchasing their pattern. (Already PAID). That's like purchasing a home or car but need to ask the designer if you can paint the house or tint the windows in the car.

Like I said ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, the lady that asked about the patterns already said sorry, what more do you want from her.

You folks want to debate this more please join a debating team, but leave the forum for what it was meant for.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"You folks want to debate this more please join a debating team, but leave the forum for what it was meant for."

But the forum was not meant for violating copyrights by freely sharing copyrighted patterns. The purpose of this forum was for folks to ask for help on, for example, how to do a particular stitch, or what yarn can be substituted for another, etc. As is stated at the top of the main forum page:

"This forum is for the discussion of knitting, crochet, weaving and other fiber arts. Here we can settle such questions as what is the best way to construct a cozy for your computer."

junef....THANK YOU-THANK YOU....i soooooooo agree with your post,you hit the nail right on the head... you said exactly what i was trying to get across....they really went off the deep end with this, makes you wonder why?????........this site helped so many with thier crafts, many of us...made new, and good friends... to bad some have to be so technicial...and i say too ENOUGH is ENOUGH...and lets get back to CROCHETING.......

"to bad some have to be so technicial"

Abiding by the law is "being so technical"??? Sheesh.

thank you mamalo3!!!!
why is it some of these ladies just cant seem to leave well enough alone!!
We get it !!!! how much more do we have to hear you ladies go on and on about the copywrite laws!!!! WE GET IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All of us have made some great friends on this site, but this post is getting way out of hand, cant we all agree to disagree on this one, and just get over it ?? Do all of you copywrite police here have to scare the pants off of newbies and make this site unwelcoming?? Give it a rest and just get on with crocheting!!

Ladies one good thing that has come from this whole fiasco, is that we should check to see that our Profiles on the Garden Web include an email address.

PANDORA.....GREAT POST....Finally,the true crocheters can continue with what we do best.....and "so be it"....THANKS..

justlinda----you are so right about the profile page...THANK YOU TOO....

Uh, the word is copyRIGHT, not copywrite. This protects those creative people who are trying to earn a living, coming up with beautiful and unusual designs.

If you don't wish to participate in a discussion of copyright laws, simply ignore this thread, the same way you ignore the copyright protection written on some patterns. Just pretend that they don't apply to you.

-Babka

Some of the postings in this thread make me very sad. The sense of entitlement is so blatant - I want it so I am going to take it, no matter who owns it. Yet the same posters would probably NEVER go into a store and help themselves to an item without paying, even if no one saw it. Why the difference? It is stealing, either way. And if you no longer hear the little voice telling you that "this is wrong", then something is amiss in your ethics. Just because it is an "invisible theft" does not excuse it.

I've stayed out of this one until now but I have to agree with anne b and babka, sorry to offend anyone else. They are simply trying to keep this forum from being taken away from us, as other forums that shared paid for patterns have. If you don't agree with what they have to say, then don't post. They aren't asking you to stop sharing patterns if that's what you choose to do, they are simply protecting the forum. If someone shares a project they have done and you want the pattern for it, then e-mail them privately and ask for it. Or ask them to direct you to a site or store where you can purchase it yourself. Don't broadcast that you are violating the copyright laws here where the entire forum will be punished, and not just the ones who are "sharing".

Hi Ladies,

I just wanted to stop and hopefully help clear up a few things. I understand this can be a volatile subject and it's certainly something that has been discussed frequently on hundreds of message boards and email loops.

Copying patterns without the permission of the author/publisher/designer IS a copyright violation. Lindsey, Paige, Anne and others are correct in the information they are sharing.

I can say this with great confidence both professionally and personally -- I've been a knitter and crocheter most of my life. I'll freely admit that at one time, I had absolutely no clue that this practice was wrong and had often copied patterns. It was truly a revelation when someone told me.

I know that many might say, 'So, I'm making ONE copy of a pattern. Big deal!' Well, if everyone were to feel that way, eventually it does add up. I have friends who are designers and I know how important it is to support them so they will continue to create wonderful patterns for us to enjoy.

Lindsey mentioned Ravelry -- I would definitely second that suggestion! I've found it to be one of the amazing resources out there. You will quickly become hooked.

So, are the copyright police going to come and knock on your door? Probably not, but that still doesn't mean that copying patterns is wrong and shouldn't be done. I also think that we need to be gentle with each other and kind to those that don't understand or know of this policy. No one likes to be accused of wrong-doing -- especially if you just haven't been aware.

If there are posts on the forum asking others to send or copy patterns, they will be removed. Please do not take this as a personal affront -- we are simply doing our job.
I hope that you will continue to use this forum as a way to support each other and share your knowledge by helping others. If you have any questions at all, please don't hesitate to email me -- my address is on my profile page.

Tamara Amey
GardenWeb Community Manager