This pretty much sums up my take on KD's and the approach I recommend to potential clients;Bag-n-box cabinets are dimensioned in 3" increments.

Custom cabinets, those built in a locale cabinet shop, use every " of space.

Most have been in business long enough and have enough experience to "advise you" regarding placement of fixtures and appliances.

Prepare yourself by asking, what do I and don't I like about my existing kitchen.

In your mind, place yourself in the room and ask if the______ is here, would I like the ______ here, or would it be more convenient there.

Prepare a meal.

Does it work?

What needs to change?

Then order the cabinets.

I think a good sales person, from a shop where you plan to buy cabinets, can be a kitchen designer. There is a certification that the better ones have.

Ok magpier, I'll try to get it started and I'm sure others will chime in. From my limited experience for my kitchen remodel this time, I hired a Kitchen Designer/KD. Yes, you are paying them for their services. Yes, often they are like Interior Designers (ID) but should be experts in kitchens. Kitchens have spacing needs, storage requirements, efficiency needs, etc You meet with several local KDs and pick the one that you think is the best for you and your project. How do you find them? Either ppl you know may be able to refer someone they used. Professional organizations include: NKBA (national kitchen and bath association) and ASID (american? Society of interior designers). Both these organization's websites list members with contact info incuding their websites links. During the first meeting is when you usually get to view their portfolio of previous jobs, or they may have a website that shows some of their jobs. You can ask for references from other customers for similar type job and budget. my KD offered full services - just as you said from beginning to end. No, they are not just for high end projects. KDs offer several services; I'll just touch on a few of the services. There are several KDs here that can expand with all the services typically offered. KDs can work with you from beginning to end (one-stop shopping) or a la carte. (It took me a while to find someone locally who did a la carte so maybe it's not so common). Suppose you just need a design plan. A KD can do that for you. Of course you'll need cabinets for the kitchen. Many KDs offer several cabinet lines in several price ranges (high, med, low/entry) and will work with you to pick the cabinet line that will best work with your kitchen vision/style and budget. they often will bring the door styles to your house. Some KDs work in a showroom but not all. they will arrange for you to see the cabinets lines at a showroom so you can kick the tires so to speak. Is the cabinet line finish acceptable to you, etc etc. Cabinets are usually the most expensive item in a kitchen. Yes there are kitchen designers that work in the kitchen showrooms as well. However, if you are working with a KD from soup to nuts, you prolly wouldn't be dealing with the showroom designer...you're the KD's client. Suppose tho you only wanted design/layout services from KD. (You may have noticed several ppl asking for 'feedback on my design pls' threads here.) Once u have the details (dimensions, etc) as you like, go to a showroom to look at cabinets. Here's where the salesperson in the showroom comes in. They may or may not be a KD. They will help you pick particulars about cabinetry and order. If you walked into a showroom without a design, the in-house KD or an experienced (hopefully) salesperson would help you design your room and help you pick cabinets and order. Typically, the cabinets can have a long lead time for delivery. You then run around making all the decisions and purchases for remodel. (Often a KD will suggest you decide on (minimal info regarding) appliances early on since it can affect your design/layout. Also often KDs may have relationships with contractors that can handle the labor side of your project. Hire your contractors. Contractors who are experienced with installing a kitchen will often handle the city permits if needeD. Getting the appropriate city permits is important. With permits, a city inspector comes in at several stages of the remodel to make sure everything is kosher. One early inspection visit is before the walls go up. They ensure the framing, plumbing and electric and whatever else is done according to code. (I don't know how extensive your remodel plans are).

Depending on the scope/amount of change you want done to the kitchen, it can be stressful. Selections/decision-making can become excruciating. Often those decisions are bunched up together and you don't want to make a mistake which may affect your budget. You can read a multitude of threads here. My most challenging part of making those decisions was remembering all the dependencies or what would be impacted if I selected this instead of what I originally wanted. And I did that a lot!

I know it can be a bit confusing when doing this for the first time. I hope this helps sort out a bit of the confusion.

This is a good question, and one I haven't seen asked. I believe KD is used loosely on this forum, simply to mean someone who has responsibility for making design decisions in the kitchen. It's typically someone who's paid for that service, but they could be paid in any number of arrangements, including that they get paid via your cabinet order.

Your question about how to find a good one is a trickier one to answer. Although there is a certification, to me that implies commitment more than skill.

Like hiring any professional, it's fair to ask a lot of questions. Ask them about previous jobs / solutions they've come up with (and get references). Ask them about what they like doing. A good designer has good ideas for you, so ask them about what you feel are the trickiest parts of your kitchen.

You'll be amazed at what people will tell and what good ideas you'll get before you hire anybody. If you're working with someone in a showroom, go during off peak hours when they have more time to chat. And don't feel like you can't find a helpful KD selling cabinets in a cabinet shop - there can be helpful people that have good ideas and take the time to get to know your needs anywhere.

We actually had two people I would consider KDs. The first designed the layout of our kitchen - he was hired independently, was certified, and we paid a him directly for his services. This is the type of independent professional you described.

The second was our cabinet maker - he was not certified, but was at least as good if not better in many ways than the certified one. This was a custom cabinet maker, so not exactly the person you'd find in a showroom, but clearly not an independent designer either, as he was getting paid with our cabinet order. He was so good that if we had met him before we hired the first one, I doubt we would have hired anybody else.

My advice would be to talk to anybody you can about your kitchen, and be open to everybody's ideas, regardless of their title (we even got some good ideas from the painter!). I'm not saying you shouldn't understand their motivations; I'm just saying not to distrust their judgment because of their title.

To give you some idea of the value a good KD can provide, I've included a link to a writeup of our kitchen that geeks out on the details. There are things our KDs came up with that we would never have thought of: size ratios of upper/lower cabinets, understanding which walkways needed a few extra inches, getting extra storage out of walls, natural light vs. cabinet storage tradeoffs, etc.

Here is a link that might be useful: many KD details

Thank you all for your feedback.

Mags- I agree that the choices can be overwhelming. It is tough to know where to start. Even coming up with a realistic budget is difficult because so many of the big ticket items cannot easily be priced and are hugely interdependent (cabinets are difficult to price wo a full layout plan, appliances depend on the layout too).

We are doing a gut renovation of our existing kitchen (which is original to our 1940s house), adding a small 2-story extension that will be a family room on the first floor and expanded bedroom on the second, and doing other exterior work. It's a kind of DIY project in the sense that we are getting help from my father, a semi-retired contractor. But it's still a huge and expensive undertaking for us. No one I know has ever used a kitchen designer (apart from the showroom kind). So friends and family would think I was bizarre and fancy if I hired an independent one.

JM your kitchen is wonderful. Chock full of great details. You indeed were working with some great talent.

We found the cost of the appliances to be inexpensive by comparison to the cabinetry. Cabinets are outrageously expensive which is why a KD might be a bargain in the long run. A good one really can visualize space you didn't know you had and make the best use of it.

Independent designers are very few. The market won't support them making a living. I tried it for a few years, and if I hadn't had someone else in the household paying the mortgage, it would have been even less time trying to make a go of it. So, I went back to work for a box store.

The talent among the "Cabinet Specialists" at any box store can vary widely from a girl who was in the Paint department yesterday to a crochety old fart who has designed kitchens for 30 years. I've worked with both. I didn't major in design. It was a minor. But, I've never done anything else, because it's always called to me.

And it's the same at any cabinet shop. You may find someone fresh out of school who was hired as an intern, but has zero experience in kitchens. You may find a 50 something back in the work force after the kids are gone, and who has always had talent for design, but no formal education. You may find someone who grew up in the business, and who has never really done anything else. Like all jobs, there is a wide spread of experience, and talent. Certification from the NKBA is one route that you can be assured that they have a basic idea of the clearances and other codes issues that go into making a safe kitchen. But, that's no given either. There are plenty of people in design every where who do not have certification.

There are plenty of amateur designers who were doing their own project and learned enough about everything that they could 99% design someone else's kitchen. Some right here on this board. Buell, Lisa, Marcolo and others all have a knack for creating workable spaces. Where they lack is experience with the options in the various cabinet lines, and knowing what a design choice will cost in a certain line, and how the overall pieces relate to the design and budget.

That's where a local KD comes in. And that's why you work with a local KD to make your kitchen the best it can possibly be. You needn't hire an independent for that to happen. You can usually get free design service at a cabinet shop, as part (or all) of the KD's compensation is from commission paid from the cabinet sale. That doesn't mean that it's "Iron Chef Kitchen Designer" where you get a bunch of free work in a competition setting. It means that you find someone you work well with, put a retainer down, and work with them. Any KD will have several cabinet lines in several budget points. They can get you the same look in many different budgets. I can do Shenendoah white shaker for 6K, or Kraftmaid at 10K (or 30K, depending on your choices) or Schuler for 20K (or 50K). Every KD can do the same.

The person is more important than the product.

GreenDesigns--that's what I feared. It seems to be a crapshoot to get a good, experienced person. I don't have a ton of time to shop showrooms either. This part of the process seems the most frustrating. I can see the value a good kitchen designer can add to a product but I don't know how to get one.

I will just have to cross my fingers and hope for the best. And be very grateful I found Gardenweb.

Magpier:

I can always tell when someone's made their own logo or designed their own website. It's usually glaringly obvious. It's no different with a kitchen, except the stakes are extraordinarily higher.

You must know what you don't know.

I've started jobs and had customers say "You've done this a few times before, haven't you?" Search for your KD until you ask this question.

I'm a KD....and GreenDesigns nailed it. I'm what s/he describes as "someone who grew up in the business, and who has never really done anything else"! :-)

It doesn't have to be a crapshoot. Here are some suggestions:

-Check to see if there are any dealers or designers on Houzz. It's a great place to see their portfolio.

-Get referrals from friends and neighbors (post something on FB, you'll get lots of feedback.)

-Check out the local dealership websites and see what you can find out and maybe even see their portfolio.

-Whether a website or on Houzz, If you can't find something that they have designed that makes you sit up and take notice, keep looking. All designers get the generic, plain Jane jobs once in a while.....But designers will usually post their nicest work. So if you don't see anything you like, it might be good to move on.

-Don't work with someone without at least 5 years experience. Even the best, most creative people need time to KNOW their stuff.

-Compile a list of 3 or 4 designers...call them for a quick phone discussion about their showroom, what brands they carry and what services they offer (and if there's any design or retainer fees). This often depends on your market.

-Then after the phone convo ,narrow it down to 2....then make and appointment and go visit! Some showrooms are fine with walk-ins....but every KD will admit, a planned appointment is much better for both of you!

Kompy

It's not a crapshoot at all! You interview KD's the same way you'd interview a high school kid wanting to get into college, or an employee who you'd want to hire for your own business. You look for their strengths and weaknesses, and match them to your own personal strengths and weaknesses. You look at past projects that they've done. And the most important thing, you see if you communicate well with each other. Do they get you, and get your project?

The worst thing you can do is to not get help with your project. A KD has done thousands of kitchen projects. You may only do one or two in your entire lifetime. Take advantage of their experience. Their free experience.

If you don't have a lot of time to devote to a project, you want someone who can narrow your focus in choices. That means that you give them a good amount of freedom to present ideas to you that fit your expressed program. That limits your choices from many that work well, to just a few that work well. It makes things easier for you.

Sorry- to long as usual but here goes.

It is really no more of an investment in time than looking for cabinets in the first place. It is a question of deciding what you are shopping for- price, brand, or service. It is just a question of focus. Too many people simply shop for-plywood, soft close, a pretty picture, a display they like,a color, a price.

Finding a good KD-
there is no simple litmus test- Talent, education, certification, years of expereicne (see below), what computer program, hand drawing, rendering prowess, all take a back seat to work ethic. Will they work for and with you. Your initial concact with them in the showroom should be between one and two hours unless you get a hunch that this is not the person quickly. Whenever possible make an appointment first. IF that asking for an appointment is met with “just come in anytime” it may less than an ideal place IMO.

Before you go have a clear idea of what you would like, how you would like it to work, what you must have. Consider any and all procedural aspects you are interested in: scheduling appointments, service, follow up, changes and revisions, overall timing, will they at least advise on portions of the design they don't sell you (color, tile, backsplash, etc.) Only you know what is important to you. Find out in the beginning, ask don't assume.
But don't be in a rush to get those answers, just know what your questions are. Listen, most of your questions should be answered during the overall presentation. For any that are not ask them at the end if you are still interested.

First off you want a good fit, it should feel right to you. You don't need to marry them but you don't want to be annoyed, feel inadequate, confused, or untrusting. This is perhaps the most important aspect and just takes paying attention to your gut. Your SIL may think I'm great but you can't tolerate me then I'm not the one.

Ask for and check references-preferably in the same budget range you are in. Don't look for a perfect record, better to find out how follow up was, how issues were dealt with. Ideally you want them from the last year or two, say 3 to 6 of em (depends on budget how many they can give you) It can be a good sign that you are getting current ones if they say they must check with the client first, means you are not getting a cherry picked list but rather more recent jobs. (I am always surprised how rarely anyone asks for references.)

Will they, can they work within your budget. A good indicator would be when they discuss what kind of compormises you are willing to make to what you want. Just about everyone has to either adjust the want list or the budget to get the two to coincide. The KD who simply says yes to everything is a red flag. A bonus : suggesting “brand A” over “brand B” when both meet your budget but they feel that for your specific kitchen brand A is a a better value. Are they willing to price multiple options including the next better brand just to see if that may work for you (this is not an upsell technique, just due diligence)

What questions they ask can tell you as much as the answers they give to your questions. Just as in a job interview it should be a 50/50 conversation.

How many kitchens do they do a month/year/week. It is pretty hard to produce quality work if overloaded and the business model is crank em out. Max is 25 to 30 “sold” and less than 100 worked on a year.
Some places have a model where the KD has a lot of backend support for ordering and drawing. In those cases the volume an individual can handle could almost double. By the same token, only a handful sold in a year (unless they are doing lots of big or hi end projects) would be a red flag.

The business model matters more than the size of the business. A KD with only a couple of years expereicne at a place with a few designers BUT with strong support from the owner and other designers can be better than am old timer working at a “kitchen mill” where the emphasis is sales volume. How much freedom does the KD have to do what they think needs be done? A small place with only one or two KD's usually means one of them is the principal. Whenever possible talk with the owner too.

How long have people worked for this place? Do they go through KD's like water or do they stay?

Denigrating the competition is a no-no.

Do they take notes? Do they continue to ask questions? Is it a serious conversation or a sales pitch?

Do they occasionally challenge you on your choices-IOW do they ask “why?” You don't want someone to tell you “you don't want to do that” just because they don't do it a certain way or don't like a feature. You DO want someone to keep you from shooting yourself in the foot not just “yes ma'am”.

As Green pointed out there are not a lot of independants. Personally I believe there are advantages to having a commissioned KD (glorified cabinet salesman). They are invested in your budget and have all the tools needed to make it. Independants like architects are not always great at staying on budget and are not accountable for it. When I started on my own we thought that most if not all of what I did would be independent. That quickly changed. I still do some independent design work but only for certain professionals in specific circutmstances.

Snoonyb wrote:
;Bag-n-box cabinets are dimensioned in 3" increments.
Custom cabinets, those built in a locale cabinet shop, use every " of space.

Most of what is available at the “box stores” are that way. Visit an independent and discover that there are many modestly priced semi custom brand allow sizing in 1/8” increments, often at no charge. Other rather extensive modifications are also common. From the upper middle price point, every brand I know allows sizing and other mods. (I have one that is capable of doing 64ths.) I've never been willing to be prevented from designing what needs to be done by size restrictions-at almost any but the absolute lowest price point.

I'm going to chime in here from an interior designer's persepective.

I see this as 3 levels: architect, interior designer, kitchen designer.

Some architects also design and draw architectural plans for the kitchen as a room with all the systems included. Interior designers may design and plan but may or may not draw plans for the room, including systems and cabinetry. Some do/ some don't. Some just consult on surfaces. It varies really a lot.

A kitchen designer like Mick DeGiulio, f.ex., functions like an architect. He also supplies cabinets and construction.

An interior designer who specializes in kitchens or likes to do them -- someone like Suzanne Kasler out of Atlanta -- may draw up the overall plans and pick out surfaces then supervise the contractor.

The other category are people who are kitchen designers but mainly provide designs based on the cabinets they sell. That can range from someone at a big box store -- as explained above -- to someone at a house like Bulthaup where they design and install everything.

It's difficult to understand since there aren't clear divisions of who does what. But based on my training, the ability to draw up architectural plans -- which include lighting, ventilation etc. is the divider because the plans are the "facts" of the job and the basis for the full costs.

Someone who draws up the floor plan & elevations of a kitchen, specifies the cabinets & appliances and gives gives a price estimate based on that, but doesn't get involved with all the other systems still can be called a KD.

Apart from understanding that, and picking what you need, it's finding the connection with the person who has the skills for the particular job and can deliver the vision the client wants for the kitchen.

I'm not a kitchen designer. However, I have designed my own kitchen in a new home from scratch. It worked out well. But, it was a simple space. I have renovated a number of kitchen's by myself and used an independent kitchen designer twice. We have moved a lot through the years.

My current project is in a difficult space. I knew it was more than I could do by myself. I also knew that I wouldn't get good results from a designer from a box store. That's why it's being renovated, the current design is a Home Depot Expo disaster -- very pretty, but doesn't function.

I needed an independent designer. Those are tough to find. I ended up calling custom cabinet shops and asked for referrals. By golly, I got one. She had all the bells and whistles. She had 20 years of experience. She worked for a company full time, but did moonlighting for people just like me. This was with the permission of her employer.

She worked for a flat fee. Because I had done this before, there wasn't a lot of indecision. We worked well together. Two meetings and a couple of emails, presto, I've got a set of plans that are mine. I can take them anywhere and get a price. She didn't think the shop where she was employed would provide good results. She agreed that I would need a custom application.

I sent these plans to Leon Scherr at Scherr's in Minot, North Dakota. He's worked up a price for Ready to Assemble cabinets for me. (I would use Barker's, but I'm afraid I'll mess up the ordering process.) Leon will put the order together for me. I'm just about ready to put down a payment for him to do custom cabinets for me. I can assemble the boxes myself. I have a carpenter to help me if I get myself into trouble. My cost will be a lot less than Home Depot and I'm going to be much happier.

My kitchen designer took one look at my current kitchen and came up with a cost figure. Because I am experienced, I knew that she knew what she was doing. She was spot on. I was willing to pay for experience like that. I got good value for my renovation dollar.

If you or anyone else reading this can find an independent designer, they are well worth the cost. I spent $1500. My $40,000 to $50,000 cabinets are going to cost me $17,000 plus my labor. I think it was well worth my effort to track down a designer.

Wow, thanks, GreenDesigns! I appreciate the compliment from someone in the biz.

Magpier, I hired an independent KD, a CMKBD, to be exact, someone with 25 yrs+ in kitchen design. I had my lay-out pretty well determined before I started interviewing KDs but I definitely wanted to get my plan vetted to make sure I hadn't overlooked anything. I also wanted a KD's expertise and advice about materials choices, not just how well each would endure but how well - or not - my choices went together.

If you interview an independent KD be prepared to pay for their time, especially if you ask that they come to your home for the interview. I wanted to do the interview on site so they could see what I was working with and what suggestions they might offer to improve my plan. Perhaps one of them would have come to my home without charging me but I didn't feel that was appropriate because they are independent professionals - their time is money - and I was going to ask for their advice during more than a brief meet and greet session.

"The person is more important than the product."

"You must know what you don't know."

"It is really no more of an investment in time than looking for cabinets in the first place. It is a question of deciding what you are shopping for- price, brand, or service."

All of the above nail it.

Doing a kitchen can have life threatening consequences if you don't know what you don't know. No, I'm not being dramatic. There are many many issues in a kitchen that you need to know about, from electrical requirements to fire safety issues. Most homeowners don't have the time to fill their brain with all of that. Or are bored by it. It's not something that your average person needs to know. Unless they are doing a kitchen remodel. I've had to learn all of that. And more.

And all of that knowledge is at your disposal, free of charge. Yes, free. I don't mean the forum here, although I like to contribute occasionally. I mean the fact that my salary, and that of most in the industry, is paid for by you ordering your cabinets. It's something you'll have to do at some point anyway. Ordering cabinets, I mean. So, why not pick the right person to order them from? Someone like the many KDs in this thread! If you pick the right person, you don't need to worry about which cabinets, or if the DW can actually open and clear the handles of the cabinet across the L, or if that sink will really fit in that sized base. All of those little details that can make or break a design. Let someone else worry over them. For free. How on earth could you pass up that deal? :)

Carrieb, check the email addy you sent me.

I forgot to add that we decided to go the independent KD route because we'd already found a great GC and cab maker to work with. The cab maker provided kitchen/cab design guidance but I wanted a little more hand holding and someone to help me with the overall project.

in my area, a kd is someone who works for that cabinet shop. i did not feel like any if them had the knowledge of the gw pros/laymen experts.
my space was un changeable without knocking down walls, etc so on a small budget they layout stayed pretty much the same. the only kd who made really great cabinet use suggestions was at lowes but she was always busy, didn't respond to email and lowes made me wary.
make sure that you feel like you can email your kd with "dumb" questions, can make revisions to a plan, etc. the kd i went with sold 3 cabinet lines of known brands, owned the place with her husband and always treated me with courtesy despite my small potatoes order and my myriad of questions/revisions. i found her through angies list and the cabinet manufacturer website. if you have a general idea of where your budget falls, then you can look up cabinet companies on gw and make visits to their showrooms. most showrooms will set you up with their designer at no cost. if you have a general plan or measurements, you can get a feel for what is available and what it will cost
good luck!
ps everything i know about kitchens, i learned here:) lots of wisdom to be had on this site!