Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
lisafromvermont_gw

remodeling kitchen in 1864 post and beam house

lisafromvermont
9 years ago

we just bought an old fixer upper and want to make the kitchen layout more efficient. we are planning to take out the wall to the pantry to the left of the stove, but are at a loss as to how to make the flow work. feeling like we're stuck with a galley kitchen :( would love any input, i am not good at this!

Comments (38)

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    another view

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    front door is to the right of these windows. den is to the right of that door (on the other side of the wall of oak cabinets). basement door is on the far right of this photo in pantry.

    This post was edited by lisafromvermont on Mon, Dec 22, 14 at 21:10

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    view to dining room and living room from kitchen

  • zorroslw1
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can you sketch a floor plan of the rooms surrounding the kitchen?

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i will try! will go there tomorrow and measure more accurately.

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    view from dining room into kitchen, small pantry at the far end of kitchen which we will open up. basement door is on the left in the pantry.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Measure neighboring rooms also.

    Why would you ever want to knock down that wall? That would do nothing for you other than creating a bizarrely shaped room. The range can't stay there anyway.

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    marcolo, we couldn't figure out how to fit all the appliances otherwise. our fridge is 4 inches wider than the current fridge, and we wanted counter space on both sides of the range (which we are replacing with a gas range). very open to other suggestions, as i'd love to keep a pantry.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh boy, does this ever bring back memories! We just went through this with a circa 1860's post and beam house. It looked A Lot like yours when we started! I'll share what we did below.

    You are starting at the right place. I wish we had found GW kitchens before we began remodeling the kitchen. We had made a few alterations that we didn't want to change before I found GW and it made it *much* more challenging to do the kitchen. I think our kitchen turned out ok, and Gardenweb was still very helpful, but if I was to go back to the place where you are now, there are things I would do differently that would have made the layout much more ideal.

    Please share some accurate drawings on graph paper so we can be the most help possible to you. You'll find helpful info on drawing this up on the "Sticky" thread at the top of GW's kitchen page.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Laughable's Farmhouse kitchen Reveal

    This post was edited by laughable on Tue, Dec 23, 14 at 7:53

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Even without seeing a plan or even enough pictures, the range looks like it could go on the wall of cabinets that have seed label posters on the uppers. (I hope you don't plan to touch that awesome blue cabinet!)

    Definitely give us a good plan. The easy way to do it is to start in one corner. Measure from the corner to the first window or door you find. (The door officially starts at the outside casing / trim.) Write down that number. Then measure the whole door width, including trim. Write it down. Then start measuring the wall again, until you hit a corner or another opening. Again, write down the number. Repeat until you go all the way around the room. For windows, also mark how high the bottom and the top are above the floor.

    Do you need this to be eat-in? How big is your budget, meaning are you up for new cabs, countertops, appliances, etc?

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Definitely post a layout of the whole floor this kitchen is on with measurements, but immediately, it is obvious that you will have to move a doorway. You will want the dining room doorway to be directly opposite the front door/den doorway.

    The reason for this is, currently, anybody who comes in one of those doorways has to walk diagonally across the kitchen to exit the room through the other doorway. This traffic path goes past literally everything in the kitchen, so anybody walking that path will be bumping into and getting in the way of anybody working in the kitchen. You do not want traffic to flow through your work zones.

    Picture if, instead, the dining room doorway were moved so it was opposite the front door/den doorway. Now people walking around the house go past the cooks in the kitchen, not through/among the cooks the in the kitchen.

    Also, whenever you consolidate your various doorways on one end of a kitchen, your kitchen (counters, cabs, etc.) can have longer, more continuous runs (since they are not so punctuated by doorways).

    It sounds as if you are very new to this layout stuff, so I'm going to start from the very beginning.

    Generally, when you are cooking, you are not just standing at the stove stirring. You spend large quantities of time measuring, mixing, chopping, etc. This is what we call "prepping," and it is typically what takes the most time when you are cooking. Prepping happens on a counter, and in a perfect world, people like about 4-6 ft. of prep counter space to on which to spread out, but as little as 30" of counter will work (any less than that is less wide than a person, so counters more narrow than 30" are just landing zones, not work spaces).

    Since prepping usually involves washing veggies, rinsing your fingers/knives, etc., it is handy to have a sink (either your main sink or your prep sink) immediately next to big prep counters. If your prep counter doesn't have a sink, you have to wash things at a sink and then carry them to the prep counter, which creates drips across the floor and extra walking (which is inefficient, especially if you don't wash everything at once and have to keep going back and forth) and creates potential for you to bump into/get in the way of other people working in the kitchen.

    Since whatever you're prepping usually ends up on the stove or in the oven, it is also very handy to have your range right next to your big prep counter. Otherwise, you'd have to pick up and carry all your prepped stuff over to the stove, and if you, say, are cooking one step while simultaneously prepping the next step, you'd be running back and forth.

    The conclusion of all this is that the ideal prep zone is a long expanse of counter between a sink and the range. A set-up like that means you can drop all your food on that one counter and then wash, prep, and cook it there, all without ever moving again. This is best both because it is most efficient in terms of your movements and because you, as an immobile person, will not be crossing paths with anybody else in the kitchen. They won't get in your way, and you won't get in theirs.

    When the ideal prep space between the sink and stove isn't possible, the next step down is either:
    1) just a big counter with a sink (you can wash/prep everything there without moving, but then you will have to move operations to the stove at some point)
    2) just a big counter with a stove (you wash everything elsewhere and then carry it over, and from that point, you can do all your prepping and cooking without moving again)

    Counters without a sink or the range generally go unused or are just landing spots. People will naturally choose to work on three feet of counter next to the sink or the range rather than working on seven feet of counter next to nothing.

    That is why your stove placement is so terrible and why marcolo said there was no way it could stay there like that was the most obvious thing in the world. As I said above, your counters next to your sink and your range are your main prep spaces in any kitchen, and 30" of counter is the minimum needed for prep to happen. Your kitchen has less than 30" of counter on the left of your stove, less than 30" on the right of your stove, less than 30" on the left of your sink, AND less than 30" on the right of your sink.

    I truly have never seen that before! Of the FOUR places you could have counter space that was actually useful, your kitchen has it in none!

    On top of that, you have the stove directly against the wall, which means large pots cannot sit squarely on the burners next to the wall.

    The stove simply has to move. Having it there is just terrible, and to me and old hats like marcolo, showing us pictures of your stove in that location is like walking into an ER with an ax embedded in your forehead and asking the doctor what he thinks could be wrong with you.

    So your instinct to put more counter next to the cooktop was a good one, but you actually already have large swatches of counter and general space in your existing kitchen. It's a great size. You just have to move the stove over to one of those vast expanses of counter. It solves everything.

    Without knowing anything about your family or kitchen desires, the most obvious functional layout is this one:

    {{gwi:2142745}}

    This is probably the simplest and cheapest way for you to have a very functional kitchen in this space. You move one door, but your windows and plumbing stay in the same place, which keeps costs and surprises down.

    Plus:

    1) Your work zones no longer have traffic running through them.
    2) Your kitchen is set up to have ideal flow for how cooking is done. I.e., fridge/pantry (get the food) -> sink (wash the food) -> largest stretch of counter (chop/measure/mix the food) --> range (cook the food).
    3) Your dishwasher is not between the sink and cooktop, so the largest and handiest stretch of counter (between the sink and cooktop -- your primary prep zone) can still be used when the dishwasher is open. This means someone can simultaneously be loading the dishwasher while someone else is cooking and/or the cook has the option to clean-as-you-go while cooking.
    4) There is a counter next to the fridge on which to drop things you're pulling out of the fridge.
    5) You generally have lots of counter space, and it's all ideally placed. You have lots on both sides of the sink, lots on both sides of the cooktop, a big expanse between the sink and cooktop (your primary prep zone), another big expanse next to the cooktop (your secondary prep zone -- where a second cook could work), and then more next to the fridge. Counter spread out like this means that, whatever you want to use in your kitchen (fridge, sink, or stove), you have room to work there.

  • allison0704
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Have you ever seen kitchens by the Workshop of David T Smith? They have a Facebook page with more photos of installs. I don't know how rustic you want to go, but any ideas you gather from his website can be rustic or not.

    How do you feel about a mostly unfitted kitchen, purchasing a hutch and armoire or cupboard for dish and food storage? They can go on the wall where blue cabinets and cabinets with seed images are now.

    Atticmag.com has a lot of nice kitchen ideas.

    Here is a link that might be useful: David T Smith

  • my_four_sons
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't post an address or I will sneak in with a pry bar and take your floors home with me. Whatever you do, please keep those beauties. Gah.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jillius, that's a good layout but the green column is certainly a masonry chimney. And as I said, those blue cabinets can't go no matter what!

    I completely agree with allison that unfitted is the way to go. Partly because it fits the vibe of the house but also because the layout tends that way anyway.

    My gut reaction is to do the following (and I might revise quickly once I see actual dimensions):

    - Keep fridge, sink and DW on the wall where they are now, but update David Smith style (I would be so tempted to hide the fridge in the pantry but I'd stop myself)

    - Put the range and a small prep sink on the wall with the poster-covered cupboards

    - Put a big beautiful period-looking worktable in the middle of the room

    - Spit, polish and done.

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    YOU GUYS ARE SO AWESOME!!! heading over there now to measure. feeling grateful :)

  • allison0704
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marcolo, I had typed out table-style island (or kitchen table) but deleted. Didn't think there was enough room. I like the blue color too, but not sure about keeping them.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We won't know til she comes back!

    That cabinet is what David T Smith tries to fake, but it's the real deal. Picture it scrubbed, maybe waxed. Top carefully refinished. And with different wallpaper or maybe stained beadboard on the backsplash.

  • chesters_house_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not so sure about the blue cabinet -- looks to me like 1950s thereabouts site-built. It seems to be 3/8 inset with 1950s hinges and pulls (unless someone in the 1950s demanded colonial-looking hardware). Doesn't mean it's not worth keeping, but I'm not sure I'd tie myself into knots to do it if the layout demanded something else.

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    this is my best shot at a diagram.
    the blue cabinets doors are painted plywood. i can find out how old, but definitely not original. the person i bought it from was there 25 yrs and the previous owner of the 25 yrs preceding lives across the road so i can ask him anything.
    and there are multiple cat/dog scratches on it.

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    we were thinking of maybe putting the fridge to the right of the pantry wall and moving the gas range to where the oak cabinets are, but keeping the current (or upgraded) butcher block counter/cabinet that parallels the sink. then we could prep at the sink, place the items on the butcher block and then its right near the stove. how does that sound? then we keep the blue cabinets (even though not original). wonder if there is space for an island or big work table in the middle? i think it will cut the flow. also, we cant move the entrance to the dining room to near the front of the house since that is actually across from the bathroom. its a weird set up with a peninsula addition built in 1970. here is a photo of the house, the old part is to the left.

    This post was edited by lisafromvermont on Fri, Dec 26, 14 at 11:56

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    here is some more info and answers to questions that were asked: we like the idea of an unfitted kitchen! we are only 2 people so we would like a small eat in table. our budget is tight, as we need to do a lot of other work (foundation repair, roof) and not sure yet what the costs will be. we like the funky chic old vermont cottagey look. will definitely keep the wide plank floors, will just sand and refinish them. also planning on replacing window over sink. we have a nice french doors stainless fridge we will bring over, but need to buy a range/dishwasher. thinking of a farmhouse sink and vermont slate countertops as our splurge. david h smith stuff looks good, i think i can find a lot of stuff like his at barn sales here in the summer :) and laughable, i adore your kitchen!!

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Omg. It's adorable.

    Hang on before y ou make definite plans. The next two days people may be kinda, um, busy!

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Could you please post a diagram of the whole floor layout -- not just the kitchen, but everything? It helps us to understand traffic patterns. Things outside the kitchen (like that your bathroom door lines up with the dining room) can greatly affect what you do in your kitchen, but we can't take those things into account if we can't see them.

  • allison0704
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What a cute house! Unfitted would look great and they can be functional when planned properly.

    Marcolo, knew what you had in mind for the cabinet, but my thought were along the same lines as chesters house (plywood) and confirmed by lisafromvermont.

    I would consider putting the fridge in the pantry. Also Google "larder cabinet." I've seen some fashioned from armoires.

    Have you seen Mtnrdredux's beach house kitchen? It is unfitted. Might give you some ideas.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Mtns kitchen

  • allison0704
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a link to my kitchen, which was done in an unfitted style. The island is one piece. Both hutches and either side of range are furniture quality; have finished ends - could easily be removed and taken to next house, but DH says no. lol I'm posting to show you a mix of furniture pieces, colors, counters, etc. We are considering building again and I would definitely do unfitted in our next house. Would love to put fridge in pantry. Our walk-in pantry is in the small area to right of range (also powder room, guest room). There is a link to it and other pantry ideas (including larders) at the bottom of article.

    Look forward to seeing your project evolve!

    Here is a link that might be useful: my kitchen

  • CEFreeman
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Holy Moly, how did you find that gorgeous cottage!

    I have absolutely nothing to offer, other than to add my raves about David T Smith. I can spot his work A.N.Y.Where.

    I only have a ranch, albeit a ranch no one else has now. I am seriously considering taking my fridge 2 feet over into the mudroom. I certainly don't need counter or cabinet space. I just don't like that big white monster (Hmmm. might paint 'er) at the end of the kitchen. Can't afford counter depth!

    I really look forward to seeing your progress.
    Merry Christmas!

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you are considering going the unfitted cabinetry route, you'll enjoy checking out Yestertec's website, as well as books by Johnny Grey, which should readily available in the library. Grey pretty much pioneered the "unfitted" kitchen idea so he has some great advice on pulling it off.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Yestertec Kitchens

  • rockybird
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I love your house! It is adorable! I cant wait to see what you do with the kitchen. I hope you are able to maintain some blue cabinets. I love the idea of an unfitted kitchen.

  • schicksal
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm with chesters_house about the blue cabinets. They look very much like what was commonly installed around here from the mid 1950s - mid 1960s.

  • lazy_gardens
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Before you start thinking about cabinet styles, get the traffic flow worked out. Because good kitchen design it's all about the traffic flow and work patterns.

    Definitely move the doorway! Jillius had the best solution for the layout at minimal cost.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The OP stated that "also, we cant move the entrance to the dining room to near the front of the house since that is actually across from the bathroom." I think this means Jillius's plan would have to be tweaked to make it work.

    Lisafromvermont, do you like the blue cabinets and are they something you want to keep? I've owned 50 year old plywood cabinets, and they are as solid as all get-out, but they have all had a distinct odor, which DH and I refer to as "that old plywood smell." For us, painting the cabinets did not remove the odor. We even tried sealing them with poly, and still the odor remained. (We still kept those cabinets, distinct smell and all!)

    The old cupboards are cute, but, if you hang around here awhile, you'll learn of the virtue of "drawers, drawers, drawers!" for storage. This doesn't mean you can't do an unfitted kitchen, but it could mean you will be looking for some solidly built dressers if you don't want to go with stock cabinets.

    I agree with Lazygardens of the importance of nailing down your workflow in the kitchen first, establishing the eating area, and then finessing the cabinetry.

    I would keep the pantry! Many of us would love to have a pantry like that but can't find the space. Yours is already there! : )

    Here's a floorplan I sketched up for you. It does keep the blue cabinets, which would make for a really nice baking area. I put in a peninsula where you could work facing the view out of the front windows. (I love to work facing a pretty view.) The prep sink could be shared by the stove's prep area and the baking area at the blue cabinets. I couldn't get a table to fit in this plan without removing the blue cabs, so I put in peninsula seating instead.

    Hopefully you'll get lots of other good ideas when people filter back in as the holiday season calms down.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    laughable's is more or less the layout I was thinking about. There may be an opportunity to do the entire peninsula in a different finish and countertop from the stove area to make it look more like an unfitted table.

    I'm not sure why it matters that the blue cabinets are from the 50's. Integrated brackets on uppers are hard to come by in inexpensive cabinets. If they work, they're in good shape, and don't stink, I'd still keep them. You can buy inserts to make the lowers more functional.

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The short walls, are they 129" or 12' 9"?

    If 129", I think using a part of the pantry area in the kitchen would not be a bad idea. I guess you'd still have space for some storage left in that area.

    Maybe, something like this?

    {{gwi:2142746}}

    {{gwi:2142747}}

    {{gwi:2142748}}

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    wow, you guys continue to blow me away! some responses:
    ~laughable, we thought maybe a peninsula to the left of where you propose the stove to go, mostly because the floor ends at the small existing peninsula, and we thought it might be nice to have it across from the sink. is there a strong reason you saw it on the other side of the stove?
    ~marcolo, yes we want to keep the blue cabinets!
    ~sena01, WOW! how did you do that? it looks awesome! again, we might want a peninsula to cover where there is no wooden flooring under the current butcherblock counter across from the sink. but we hadnt thought of the fridge there! will block it out with cardboard tomorrow and see how things feel. i like the ides of the counter not continuing across the sink, so we can save $$ on not getting a cut out in the slate (we're thinking of vermont unfading green slate). and yes, the length of that wall is 129 inches.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "we thought maybe a peninsula to the left of where you propose the stove to go, mostly because the floor ends at the small existing peninsula, and we thought it might be nice to have it across from the sink. is there a strong reason you saw it on the other side of the stove?"

    Answer: Work flow and traffic flow. The peninsula as it is in the current kitchen is quite in the way. You'll always be walking around it while trying to work in the kitchen. You also very much want to protect the stove for safety reasons. The peninsula that I drew up for you works better flow wise and helps to protect the stove.

    As far as the floor goes, old floors can be patched. If you look very carefully at our old floor in my kitchen link (thank you for the kind words!) you might be able to see some of the areas where we filled in missing boards, old heat grates, and other unusual holes. Once refinished, they blended in and added more charm.

    I think Sena uses a program called Chief Architect to do her kitchen drawings. Aren't they awesome?! If you're thinking of doing lots of renovations, it might be worth the purchase (Amazon.)

    I've linked an incredibly helpful page on kitchen planning and design rules put together by Starcraft Custom Builders. It's worth spending some time perusing their pages. They have excellent explanations of kitchen planning and of working with older kitchens. Their site is one of my favorite online kitchen resources.

    Here is a link that might be useful: NKBA's 31 design rules, illustrated

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ignore the floor. Don't be penny wise and pound foolish. You can't plan your layout around missing floorboards! New flooring can be feathered in.

    I love that sena01 drew the blue cabinets. It's a good layout except that the range is right in the path from the dining room.

  • lazy_gardens
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't worry about positioning things because of missing floor boards. Get the BEST working layout possible and then fix the cosmetics. Patching floorboards is easy, but a bad layout will bug you forever.

    Check the traffic patterns for kitchen ... make colored lines showing where various people will go as they do certain tasks. You don't want lines crossing a lot.

    Like this example:
    {{gwi:2142749}}

    Laughable's layout works because it diverts through traffic out of the way of the work area. People can sit at the outer edge of the peninsula and harass the cook. They can get a beer from the frig without getting into the cooking and prep area. If you put tableware in the blue cabinets, people can set the table without interfering with the cooking ... same with snacks.

    the cook can go from pantry to stove to frig without leavin her "zone".

    Here is a link that might be useful: Workpaths explained

  • lisafromvermont
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    we will ignore the missing flooring and look for old floorboards to fill in :) we both had colds this weekend but will go over there tomorrow with cardboard cut outs and play with layouts. our friend/contractor will start taking out the oak cabinets next week, and he also said the current wall to the pantry is in bad shape and that he could take it down for now and easily rebuild it to our specifications later on once we have more of a plan, so that is totally flexible. started reading the design rules; it all makes perfect sense! we are only 2 people, kids are grown, so mostly its just 2 in the kitchen, though we'd like to maybe do an air bnb and want the kitchen to be super inviting :)

Sponsored
Michael Nash Design, Build & Homes
Average rating: 4.9 out of 5 stars254 Reviews
Northern Virginia Design Build Firm | 18x Best of Houzz