I was thinking exactly what Mermanmike was...that the patch was intended to be on the bottom side of the top. Given that it's a pretty good patch, it would have been easily overlooked by the installers.

Fishies
Your kitchen is absolutely stunning. It is coming to life even better than I could imagine.
There is no excuse for the patch, especially not showing it to you for a decision point.
Maybe they plan to replace it but forgot to tell you - my GC wasn't very talkative - I would point out things and he would say - Already ordered...
Otherwise he was great!
Hang in there - have a couple glasses of wine this weekend and go get them on Monday - you might have to enhance your name to "Piranha" instead of 2LittleFishies to tackle this task.
Grrrr

Your kit cabs are beautiful! I would have been impressed if he had put an inlay of some contrasting wood speces vs a veneer piece. If it bothers you I would want it replaced, if not a nice discount.

This post was edited by eandhl on Sat, Dec 8, 12 at 8:16

The top isn't upside down. That was clearly meant to be the top. The bottom has (I forget the term) metal rods through it for support. I'll take some photos.

The diamond is only about a foot from the edge so on a 9' island it's not a spot I can put a bowl over or something.

liriodendron- Thanks for all of that info. Can you explain the difference between if was doweled or biscuited? Also, I don't get why if it's a veneer it is worse than if it goes all the way through?

I do see this dutchman as a "weak spot". A place that lessens the integrity of the whole piece assuming this top will be here for decades to come.

I'm hoping if they have to cut, remove, add a new strip, that not much will have to be planed off!!! It was actually supposed to be 2 1/4" but that was only in our contract whereas the kitchen plan (that I did sign off on) showed it as 2" so the guys who built it were following the drawing, not the contract.

I should note however that I wasn't charged extra for adding the 1/4" so when they didn't do it I could not ask for $ to be taken off.

This post was edited by 2LittleFishies on Sat, Dec 8, 12 at 8:40

There are 3of these:

Well I hope they are reasonable about fixing it for you. As it looks like it was constructed very carefully otherwise, hopefully this will shock whoever runs the place and you'll get a new one or, if you prefer, some compensation.

I seem to be in the minority but the diamond is charming and shows that it was very obviously handcrafted with a lot of care. The top is stunning and the little diamond is the piece de resistance.I can't even imagine how hard it was to perfectly match it like that.

ps the kitchen is gorgeous.

Your kitchen is coming together so nicely. I would be upset too if I had that Dutchman patch in my countertop. Since the rest of your cabinetry is obviously high quality, I am thinking that the cabinet maker wouldn't purposely try to deceive you with the countertop. Perhaps one of his employers did that fix and the owner of the shop is unaware of it. Or perhaps it is just that one strip of wood that was put upside down (not the whole top being upside down) during construction of the top and they didn't really notice it or just didn't think it was a big deal. Whatever the reason for it, I'm sure it can be corrected. You are certainly in control because you still owe them money. You also have the power of the GW kitchen forum behind you. Good luck

Your kitchen IS gorgeous. Hadn't thought about the decrease in functionality of the patch--good call whomever pointed that out. And they really should be ashamed of themselves for not fessing up.

They will fix it. And someone will get a deal on a narrower island sometime in the future. (Or someone will get awesome cutting boards at some point.) That walnut will NOT go into a landfill.

Hang in there!

Your kitchen is gorgeous. I love all the elements and how well they present the picture of a beautifully cohesive kitchen - both functionally and form-wise. (diamond notwithstanding) I want to walk around it and touch everything. I want to peer at the cabinet elements and rub the walnut island. The island looks like a great place for a cup of coffee. (or glass of wine).

As an aside - can I just say that I always appreciate being able to follow a kitchen from first post to final reveal. I appreciate posters who make us a part of their kitchen-design plan and process. And you did that. You were always gracious in your questions and followed-up promptly when we had questions. You accepted and listened to our opinions even if they didn't coincide with your own and I can't believe it's over. (diamond notwithstanding). I still remember your original posts of your home and a gazillion pictures of different yellows (yellow roses, etc.), and the floorplans,... Thanks for letting us be a part of your process. This, I think, is a big part of what the Kitchen Forum is about.

Little fishes, I think what Meremike was meaning, in his description of his counter construction, was that one plank that was used to create the whole top got put in upside down. He wanted to consider each placement of each board before gluing up the top. He had noted that there was an upside and a downside to each plank and one board got installed upside down.

So he wasn't meaning that your top got installed upside down. He was wanting to bring up the possibility that in the construction of the top, one of the boards got in upside down before glue up.

Am I correct Meremike?

Not that in the end it really makes any difference to you how the flaw got there, but I always find it interesting in the causes of problems. I can bore people with my questioning of the facts, etc, just ask my DH! But, I believe it is important for future problem solving. Especially if I were to be making countertops for a living, as your cabinet makers are.

Lovely kitchen. No amount of hand wringing or wild guesses as to why is going to change that it happened. On Monday you'll get the 411 and discuss what transpired and solutions. You have a lovely kitchen and this vendor has done a lot of good work for you - to let this overshadow everything is a loss of perspective. Being upset initially is understandable and being disappointed is to be expected but focus on the solution not the problem. Good luck!

Is is a 'Dutchman' repair for a defect in the wood.
the piece(s) should have been culled before assembly of the strips.

Tell them it is not acceptable.

They should be sable to rip the strip(s) out and add another strip (or two) and then refinish.

brickeyee- What is "culled"?

Oh, Fishies, how beautiful it all looks!! Are you so happy (well except for this)? This will be straightened out and you will forget it even happened. It is so, so lovely...

Culled = Taken out, set aside, pitched.

This post was edited by thirdkitchenremodel on Sat, Dec 8, 12 at 14:08

Your kitchen is so amazing beautiful with all the yellow elements. Wow, I don't know what to say about the diamond. Just call them on Monday.

This is tough on whether to accept a substantial discount or request a replacement. For your money the workmanship should be top notch.

The more I think about it...the more I think I'd make them replace it or fix it correctly. And they will. SO...have a glass of wine. Revel in the fact that, aside from that defect (which can and will be fixed) your vision came together just as you wanted it to.

I understand the disappointment, btw. You thought you were almost finished...and it is BEAUTRIFUL But now...the showpiece, the heart of your kitchen has a flaw.

I had similar feelings when they messed up the counter to my pass-through not once, but twice. They didn't even let me SEE it, the second time. Third time was the charm. But it DID set us back two weeks. Which was beyond frustrating.

Hang in there.

Patch or no (and I hope they fix it pronto) that's one beautiful kitchen.

It's not what you requested or paid for. It goes and is replaced at their cost no question, end of story.
They think they can pawn it off without question? I'd be so p-o'd at that!

gorgeous counter. I'm thinking that mermanmike is on the right track. I think there is a very good possibility it was accidentally installed upside down. Looks like both sides of the counter were finished. Were the supporting metal pieces installed before the counter was brought to your home or on site? I can see how the patch was intended to be on the bottom and in the process of installation, may have been forgotten about and missed. It seems like you hired a talented craftsman. I don't think he was trying to pull anything over on you. Hopefully it can be rectified to your satisfaction.

Fishies,

The reason I am concerned about it being a veneer patch (not full thickness of the wood) is that it limits your options many years down the road if you choose to have the top sanded down (to remove dings or stains). If the patch isn't full-depth then the sanding could scrape it off, or leave it so thin it just fails. There also may not be as good a grain match as it is now (and it is very good, the craftsman is probably very proud of that piece of work.

The issue about doweling or biscuiting is this: when boards are joined up they need to be more than just glued together. They need some kind of mechanical keying between them to make them hold together as one piece through natural expansion and contraction cycles. You don't want the boards to separate, even a tiny bit, because that would create cracks. These boards are plain sawn, not edge grain like a true butcher block, so they have more risk of expansion/contraction along the long edges. This is not a bad, or defective thing; it's just the nature of the living essence of wood. Each board has a different amount of sap and heartwood cells, so they will respond to changes slightly differently. The jointing techniques marry the whole thing together.

To keep the boards tightly joined sometimes each long edge is drilled with several holes and then the adjoining board is also drilled with holes in matching places and a wooden (sometimes metal) rod is inserted and glued in. Sometimes the joints are made with biscuits which are small round biscuit-shaped wafers that are inserted into slots cut into the long edge of each the adjoining boards with half of each "biscuit" in each board and then it's glued together. I have even heard of tops which are thicker than yours that are rodded through with a wood or metal dowel from side to side. Your top is probably too thin for that and you would see little plugs on the long sides that cover the ends of the rods. Your top is probably biscuited. So a question to ask if they go the "saw the piece out and replace it" route is how it will be re-biscuited. Some biscuit cutters can't deal with really wide boards, which is what your two halves would now functionally be. Also if it was doweled with metal pegs, it will be very tricky to saw apart, perhaps impossible.

I agree with Brickeye that a board with a visible defect needing a patch like this should have been culled (and probably others were) before assembling the top. And even if they choose to use a possibly defective piece they would have positioned the defect on the underside. That's what makes me believe that whatever happened, occurred late in the process long after the boards had been jointed and planed. Perhaps a deep dent from dropping something on it, or a tool gouge, or a splinter tore out, or something serious of that nature. And they elected to try and remove the damaged section and patch it with a piece or thin layer of (very artfully matched) walnut.

And that leads me back to my first concern. Veneer can be very, very thin. It often is on fine furniture and that is not bad. But while this top is fine, it's not the same as a delicate marquetry side table which shouldn't have anything more weighty than a book or coaster-ed glass of sherry put down on it. A kitchen island top is, by contrast, a veritable work horse. You may wish to baby it, but you will be setting down heavy objects (Le Creuset, cutting boards, heavy cans of whole tomatoes, big jugs of vino cheapo, etc.) People will slide things on it; they will spill things on it. Dimwit guests will "help" by slicing the bread on it, etc. Eventually, you, or someone else, will say: let's refinish the top and make it virginally pretty again. With a veneer patch that may not be possible, as it would have been for a solid wood piece, many times over.

Now if it was a true Dutchman, (wood plug cut to fit in the hole), the issue with resanding/refinishing would be a bit different, but still a problem. When making a dutchman you carve out the damaged section either fully through or deep enough, and square up the sides for convenience and ease of making the plug fit, but you can never make it a perfect fit all the way through because you are working in a very tight space with hand tools. Instead you concentrate on making the hole and the replacement plug match as well as possible, but you put all your efforts to making the visible meeting point on the surface perfect, even if that means it doesn't exactly match on all the interior surfaces of the hole and plug. There are always trade-offs when doing this, but you sacrifice interior fit for visible fit, IKYWM. And that can create its own issues when re-sanding because you may sand down into a place where the plug doesn't fit the sides as well as it now does on the top. That could leave you with a small gap, or visible glue residue etc. Does that make sense?

I hope they will agree to saw it and replace the board. You will lose some thickness due to the necessary sanding, or planing, and refinishing to make the new pieces even and mstching with the exsiting parts. For that season I think they should not only do this for free, but also give you some allowance since you will be "using up" some of the original depth which down the road will limit the number of times you can refinish.

I am sure that when the damage was done, they were appalled. It must have been a catastrophe. But the correct, to my mind, course of action would have been to let you know, offer options, or just get on with making it right. Which they obviously chose not to do. Too bad for them, because now they have to fix it, or have it rejected entirely. The patch, whether veneer or dutchman, is an attempt to slide it by you. Stand firmly on your little ventral fins, and bare your shark's teeth, as necessary.

I'm sure you will be successful in getting a gorgeous top to go with your gorgeous kitchen.

(As I proofed this, I realized that there is another explanation: perhaps the defect was originally intended to be one the underside. If there I don't see it as a big problem. But perhaps someone acidentally drilled the holes for brackets on the top surface and they just went ahead and left you with the orginial bottom side on top. Since you don't have a ogee, or other molded edge, it might be very easy to confuse the sides. That would be a big OOPS, and maybe done by someone not in the shop who installed the top incorrectly.)

L.

2LittleFishies-When they say it's a week spot, it's not about the counter integrity. If that's a veneer, you wouldn't be able to get it sanding down and refinished were you wanting to do that years down the road.

liriodendron is right on the money. This is probably damaged in the late stages and was simply a quick fix. Now that 2LittleFishies mentions that this is a foot from the edge, I'm even more shocked. Really doesn't matter where it is, I'd be embarrassed to install this at a clients house. They should have cut the strip out and placed a new in. However, if the counter is already thinner than it should be, doing that would have made it thinner yet so maybe that's why they tried to get away with the dutchman. Sorry, but a dutchman is for refinishing a damaged piece that somebody wanted to restore, not a new countertop.

I've basically restated what liriodendron already said. This can be fixed properly or they can simply bring you a new top. A proper repair would be completely acceptable and would be transparent to you unless the top was already thinner than you ordered.

Your kitchen is beautiful!

Thanks everyone for your support!

liriodendron- Fantastic explanation and it will help me a lot when having a conversation with cabinet maker.

I have a question. I remember reading on a discussion here that when you refinish (sand) a wood top down that barely anything comes off. 1/64" maybe? Is that wrong? I'm wondering how much will come off of my 2" top if they fix this (vs. replacing). As I mentioned I wanted it to be 2 1/4" and being the drawing said 2" and the contract said 2 1/4" the woodworkers followed the drawing and did 2".

I hate to lose more of the top and am wondering how much it would be. Also for down the road refinishing how much usually would come off?

The walnut on our 2 built ins were done in the wrong finish so when they left here they were 2". When they came back they are about 1/8" - 1/16" thinner.

I was taught that planing starts very, very small. 1/32nd. If it needs to be passed again, that comes to 1/16th.

They also may just need to make you a new top, the proper thickness and then offer this one for sale at a discount in their shop.

It will work out. Or I can meet you at the shop, if you like. I'm sure Christine is up for a roadtrip too, right?

;-)

bee

2fishies...wanted to return after reading all the comments and especially lirio's explanation. My comment was unintentionally ill informed. I have lots of positive vibes headed your way. Your space is beautifully crafted and you deserve a lovely top to your island w/o flaws. c

Thanks, Christine : ) Bee too! I'll let you know if I need you to make a trip over there! lol

trailrunner- Thanks so much!

wow, that is not cool that they did not bring this to your attention during install and give you the choice of deciding if it was acceptable. bring it to the GC's attention and let them deal with it, that is what you are paying them for. either a heafy discount if you can live with it or replace if you cannot live with it. sorry to hear but the kitch looks great!

We will ALL be expecting an update today once you've talked to your GC. Sending positive thoughts your way! It will all be fine.

All the dowels and biscuits are not as strong as the glue holding the thing together.

Dowels and biscuits will not keep joints perfectly closed long term if the joints are not built correctly.

As soon as you mix different angles of growth rings from the tree in gluing up a panel there are eventually going to be cracks.

The two directions that are normally measured are tangential expansion (tangent to the growth rings) and radial (perpendicular to the growth rings).
Wood has a very small change in length with moisture content.
They do not match even in one type of wood (though some are closer than others).

Wood is anisotropic in its expansion and contraction.
No finish can stop it, only slow it.
No joint or glue can prevent the eventual development of cracks over long glue joints with differential expansion and contraction.

The link below is to the "Wood Handbook" by USDA.
Chapter 3 covers wood movement with moisture content.

Figure 3-3 is very telling.

Walnut has a 5.5% radial shrinkage from saturated to oven dry, and 7.8 % tangential saturated to oven dry.

You will see a small fraction of these values, but the mismatch is what will eventually cause the joints to open.

Here is a link that might be useful: Wood Handbook, Chapter 3

I had DH call this morning who usually isn't involved and is better at getting the point across. Cab maker said he wasn't aware of it and that his guys should have replaced the whole strip. (He has been less hands on lately due to personal reasons I won't go into here.)

He said they'll pick it up and bring it back in a few days or so and assures us it will be as it should be and won't be thinner. (or I'M assuming it won't be a substantial amount).

Let's hope this goes well...

You're on the right track! If he's taking responsibility then it sounds like it will be right this time. Then you will have the beautiful, finished kitchen like you planned.

Good luck!

Hmmm ... I can't imagine how they are going to fix this, but it's good that they are "on it." I'm late getting here, but I concur with the majority here ... that's not acceptable. That gorgeous walnut counter is the centerpiece of your kitchen and it must be perfect. I'd have been furious.

And yep, still drooling over your kitchen.

Looks like a good opportunity to have your cabinetmaker replace it with an actual decorative inlay. I'm a big fan of inlays in my own woodworking projects. It's a good way to turn an error from "OMG a patch!" to "OMG that's so cool". They can be exacting to work with, but whoever did your patch clearly has the requisite skills.

Anyway, I expect your cabinetmaker will just rip the offending board out and replace with a fresh piece, then refinish.

Here is a link that might be useful: Inlay example from Rockler

Sounds good. I doubted you'd have to get into any kind of fight over it. The mistake is just too absurd.

So glad they are going to fix it - not sure what they are going to do, but will be watching!

What a beautiful, kitchen. I was confident that it would be fixed, and fixed to your satisfaction. Your question about the thickness now and after sanding was spot on.

Maybe this is overkill and will make you crazy, but before they pick up the top to refinish, should you measure the thickness with a fancy, precise, instrument (caliper?) and take a photo of that measurement? Only if making the top thinner will affect the future sanding ability? And call the owner and tell him that the top measures such and such and he is welcome to come over and measure it himself. And confirm that measurement with the cabmaker's ppl who pick up the top. As in a phone call to owner to say, we measured the top at precisely so and so inches, which will give us just so many future sandings. And your guy is here to confirm that measurement.

As a practical matter, you may never re-sand it for many possible reasons, but it may give you some protection, or not.

Fishies, I just made this up, and never experienced exactly this. Maybe I am too cautious- But only if the fix may affect your future. Good luck. It was great fun to watch your gorgeous kitchen take shape. I remember your inspiration pic and YOUR kit is way more gorg.

Also, take a photo of this top now and how the color of the stain matches the other stain. You just want to be sure that the fixed top will be compatible with the others. Not necessarily a perfect match, but compatible.

westsider- Thanks so much : ) Yes I will definitely measure and discuss again with the cabinet maker. Thank you for saying such nice things about my kitchen! It's been a fun process---- also very stressful--- but hoping to enjoy very soon!

BLFENTON- Sorry I didn't respond! Thanks for all the nice words. GardenWeb was such an amazing resource throughout this process. I know I asked questions about possibly EVERY element but I got such helpful answers for every one of them! Thank you for everything : )

Christine- Glad you like my yellow! It is BM Barley 199

Not evil doing just an unfortunate quality control mistake. It's a drag it happened but hopefully it won't take long to correct. No harm in asking about what the fix will involve but measuring the thickness seems a bit petty and unnecessary.

GW has to be the only place on earth where a mark of true craftsmanship is seen as a liability. And get five score of enthusiastic folks to cheer the complaint along, each blithely free of understanding what they are actually looking at.
You should be happy that they took the time to fill it in the best way possible. It is evidence exacting, fine craftsmanship.
You see, the void or knot (or civil war bullet!) that used to be where the dutchman is would have only been exposed after the top was glued up and then surfaced. It was probably not visible before thicknessing, which happens after glue-up. The only way to fix this _without making the top thinner_ was to do what they did.
It is magnificent craftsmanship, and is exactly the same approach taken by every fine cabinet or furniture shop in the past under the same circumstances. To remove/replace one board will necessitate repeating the thicknessing process, and the top will end up thinner. They can't cut the top apart and not subsequently resurface the whole thing.
Then, who is to say that the next round of thicknessing won't expose another set of issues? Even the clearest board can have hidden inclusions lurking below the surface.
You are dealing with solid wood, not glass or injection-molded plastic. Accept the limitations of the material, will you?
You have to be willing to trust that an artisan of this caliber did not purposely insert a bad board just to hurt your feelings.
Casey

"GW has to be the only place on earth where a mark of true craftsmanship is seen as a liability."

It is a defect in a new surface.

The craftsmanship comes from using classic techniques to hide the defect, but it remains a defect.

Why it was not culled before finishing is not the buyer's problem, but the risk of manufacture with a natural material like wood.

Complaining about the negligible thickness change form having to strip and refinish is going a little far.

If the wood is very flat a single pass through a large thickness sander will have it back to clean with barely 1/32 inch of wood removal.

The wood likely changes that much in thickness through out the year from humidity variation.

This post was edited by brickeyee on Tue, Dec 11, 12 at 16:09

why weren't they upfront about this?

i couldn't trust someone who did this without telling me.

Some updates/clarifications:

I was only worried about thickness because I asked for 2 1/4" and ended up with 2". I don't want less than that at this point as that is not what I ordered. If it's 1/32" difference- no biggie.

The cab maker call me again this morning and truly apologized. As a think I mentioned above, he was unaware and AGREED it is unacceptable (I also emailed pics)-- especially for a kitchen countertop. He said he understood why his guy did it (b/c he didn't want to pass through again making top thinner) but said his guy Should have pulled the board. He said he wished the worker called him but he didn't. I wholeheartedly believe he is being honest and he has no qualms about fixing the issue. As frustrating as this was, I'm sure it will be made right. It is getting picked up tomorrow (Wed,) and he hopes to return it by next Tuesday.

We both agreed the woodworker did did display fine craftsmanship but in the end it was not the correct course of action in this circumstance.

Fishies, I think you are right to be gracious about this. Stuff like this happens but your cabinet maker seems to really value customer satisfaction. That is a good thing :) Happy for you.

Darn.
I was all packed.
With my luggage painted BM Barley 199.

Christine--- HA! Thanks! Keep it packed...you never know : )

So happy he'll take care of it without any fuss. It's such a BEAUTIFUL island and so is your kitchen. I can't wait to see your final reveal.

fishies...did you get your top back???

hope all went well!!!!

Just read this thread. I'm sorry to hear of the fiasco you went through, but so glad to hear it's all going to work out! Your kitchen is absolutely beautiful! I'm excited to see it completely finished :)