My sister wants to fix her troubling island situation. She calls her kitchen "a range and hood surrounded by cabinets". Kitchen has lovely Peacock-ish custom cabinets exploiting every inch, and she wants to leave the perimeter alone. Given that, the cabinet to cabinet open space in the middle is 11'4 sink run to shallow cabinet and only 9'3" from fridge wall to the step dropoff.

Problems are
1) the midget island with 36 range and large hood and only 12 inches counter either side.
2) a 20 inch aisle, yes that is 20!!, at a loadbearing corner near the Advantium wall (at left corner edge of range island above).
3) two steps down to the breakfast area, that start without a visual cue because counters continue for the step.

Here is the floorplan with counters shaded - much of cebinetry is full depth to the ceiling.

Here's view toward family room:

View back toward DR and hall to the right

And the step 'issue'

Link to other pix at the bottom.

So what do you suggest?????

I think I have an idea but want your "fresh eyes".

Thanks!

Okay, not really, but what I have to say isn't much more helpful than that. That hood has got to go immediately. It is sucking all the energy out of that kitchen.

As for the steps and the 20" aisle (who designed this kitchen???) I have no useful advice but I cannot wait to see what others come up with.

Anita

I also will be most curious to see what others suggest.

My suggestion may work depending on code in her area.

Put a new induction cooktop under the window (I have mine set up like that and I LOVE it. I enjoy seeing the kids playing outside and I'm definitely at the stove more than the sink. In our area they were OK with induction at the window but gas would have been iffy because it is more likely to cause a fire) and if she needs a hood for her cooking style it's an outside wall so venting shouldn't be a problem.

Then move the island up against the counter by the step and put the sink there. I'd raise that wall a bit, have the current cabs open from the eating area - maybe turn them into decorative display cases or bookshelves if it's too high for good storage and have the sink next to the advantium.

Alternatively, leave the island where it is but make it smaller to increase that one aisle and still put the sink in it facing the DW. While this setup isn't ideal, we also have one DW across from the cleanup sink and it works OK. This will make it a nice area for prep as well as cleanup.

Its so beautiful.

Perimeter cabinets are really really nice...

I was thinking:

1)Combine the mini island and mini penninsula into a single larger penninsula roughly 4 x 7. Widen the aisles a bit and line up the side edge with the loadbearing wall edge. Rotate the range so it faces the sink wall. Set the range 2 feet down the penninsula toward the breakfast room (just far enough to clear the open DW)

2)This moves the hood out of the center of the room and rotates it (eliminating dominant views of the hood longways from dining room and from breakfast room.) And pushing the range toward the breakfast area then creates a 4' prep space opposite the fridge unencumbered by the hood overhead.

3) Drop the penninsula counter where the step drops so a lower ledge (catchall) faces the breakfast room. Corrals the clutter and that counter drop helps visually cue that step.

The range would have 2 feet to the left and 12-15 inches to the right, then the lower ledge of 9-12 inches.

Better?

Lose peninsula at cliff...make island large enough to work on with hood
and range in place. It would have to adjoin to advt. wall which would mean
a walk around to that.

Move entire hood and range to cliff...lose island.

OK...what do you have??

vic

That's pretty much EXACTLY what I thought.

This would necessitate losing some of the openness to the seating area below, but you could keep the countertop to the right of the range as open as possible.

I don't see an island working in this kitchen. Getting rid of it will give some openness. not loving the peninsula idea. The little walkway to the advantium would seem very confining and inconvenient to me.

forgive the quick and dirty photoshopping. here is what I am thinking (with the caveat that there are many with far more experience than I on this board):

btw, whats her granite? Its all so pretty.

vic

It's similar to MamaDadaPaige's but it removes the top part of the Advantium cabinet in addition to extending the wall to just past the range. The Advantium is then installed undercounter and you now have 30" of counter on one side & ~21" on the other.

If you don't want to extend the wall, then you could still do everything else but, make the counter at least 30" deep and, as someone else mentioned, use a glass hood to reduce the presence of the hood. This is one of the disadvantages of a range/cooktop in an island or on a peninsula (plus, of course, the safety issue...especially w/a 20" aisle...((shudder))!)

If she has room to store it somewhere, your sister might buy a portable work station/island for times when she needs the extra workspace. It could be stored in the DR (assuming there are no stairs there as well!) or in a closet in the hallway.

- Simply changing the range hood with a less visually obtrusive one would help alot - like one with a glass canopy:

- Or better yet, ditch the range hood altogether. This would require changing the cooktop (I cant tell if that's a range, or a separate oven and a cooktop with front controls above it). I avoid the telescopic downdraft units that mount behind the cooktop, because they don't reach the front burners well, especially if you have a tall pot on the burner. Center-mount downdrafts that run from front to back work better, although they can't always be used with gas cooktops. Best by far is Gaggenau's brilliant retractable ventilator, which nestles out of sight between sets of burners when not in use, but pops up and tilts to either side when needed. Unlike downdraft fans, this one doesn't try to defy the laws of physics by making steam fall instead of rise.

It doesn't work quite as well as a range hood, because it doesn't cover as large an area and doesn't have an actual hood to funnel steam into it, but they still generally get the job done, even in demanding setups with grills.

- Or you can move the cooktop to one of the outer counters, perhaps to the left of the dishwasher. Unless it's a really big house, and maybe even if it is, do you really need 6 burners? Have often are more than 4 used at once? (I often recommend 2-burner cooktops in any home with 3 bedrooms or less).

I'm not sure eliminating the island is a good idea - maybe just make it smaller, which should be easy if the cooking apparatus is moved elsewhere. What would be gained by having a big empty space in the middle of the kitchen?

Or, maybe the 13" cabinets could turn around and push through that wall (so they look builtin from the hall side), then add another wall behind them to put the stove on. The stove run could be 30" deep, I think, and the 19" counter could come out flush with the loadbearing wall section and serve as a prep/plating counter, since she has so little room around the range.

If you can work out a custom cab configuration, on the 21" to the right (as you're facing the stove), have a pullout cart or fold-down counter for additional workspace that can be put away when not in use.

Rotate the 19" cabinets 180 degrees so that they open to the room below rather than in into the kitchen. Move the island cabinets back so that they butt against the 19" with the range still facing into the kitchen as it presently is. That's now a seriously deep counter.

I'm having huge troubles associating your graphics with the photos above - that advantium cabinets I simply don't see in the photos. Anyhow, if they're real and not phantoms, utilize those cabinets as part of the range counter run.

BTW, if the geometry doesn't work out, I'd replace the 19" cabinets facing the room below with the 12" cabinets to the sides of the range which seem to be 24" wide and open to the side. Put those "behind" the range and get new cabs made to abutt the range next to the advantium cabinet run so that you don't have the wierd jog that you may presently have.

Sheesh! How odd. To spend the money and effort to get such gorgeous cabinets - with most of them in odd sizes! - and not spend the time to think about kitchen functionality.

Can your sister get wainscoting to match? I looked at the other pictures and the paneling wraps the entire wall in the breakfast area. I'm afraid of touching something like that.

Here's a picture of the advantium tucked into that loadbearing area between the kitchen and family room. Embedded in the wall there is the original corner of the 2 story brick house, so messing with that area is not an option. If it could have been done it would have been done in 2001.

Some other answers to questions:
-don't know the name of the granite
-same cabinet maker can replicate the cabinets, wainscoting, etc.
-below Advantium is a warming drawer

Rhome, you get the 'thinking ouside the box' prize. Yours comes up with the most functional plan. But sis doesn't want to turn those cabinets outwards to the hall area.

Malgold and Chinchette, very interesting to consider shifting the stove to face the shallow china or the breakfast room. We hadn't thought of either of those options.

The rest fall into two penninsula camps: spin or shove. The spin camp rotates the range 90 degrees to face the sink and embeds it in a penninsula that runs along side the advantium. The shove camp essentially pushes the range island up to the skinny penninsula.

On the drive tomorrow I suspect I will be thinking about this. Right now I'm intrigued by the spin penninsula with Malgold's twist of the range facing the china. Protects the cook from passage and from the cliff - both of which concerned me. But there would be a lot of running around the penninsula for prep, sink, etc.

Compromises, compromises.

We are grateful for your work on this. It is a tough one.

And, I'm all for protecting the cooking area, but it'd drive me nuts to run around the peninsula to the sink. Sometimes you need water in a hurry.

How about taking Bmore's plan and moving the range toward the sink 6 - 12" and deepen the counter behind the range? --I'd do the 12", but we get back into the me vs Bmore on the distance between sink and range issue ;-). --Anyway, this would give her more work counter on the Advantium side, creating another work zone. It can be a baking area maybe?

this is such an interesting problem... would love to see how it works out.

it is such a beautiful kitchen.

Alternately, I would think about doing as beachmusic suggests and moving the range to the space now occupied by the refrig and moving the refrig to the "drop off" wall, which of course means building a wall there instead of the low cabinets.

As far as no room for an island, I pretty much agree, though I wonder if a small butcherblock island could fit in there (I am not good with the measurements, so maybe not).

Also, I know you said you don't know the name of the granite. Does your sister? Did she do this kitchen? Also, have you asked a KD? I know that many times the GWers are better than the pros, but you could see what one thinks...

Good luck. Keep us posted!

If we can't fiddle w/the perimeter cabinet runs either, then I guess the peninsula is the only way to go...I don't like it though b/c of the way it cuts up the kitchen and makes whatever is inside the peninsula area inaccessible to the rest of the kitchen!

CelticMoon, I think your idea is probably her best bet...not ideal...and nothing will be unless she's willing to fiddle with more parts of the kitchen.

For what it's worth, what I would do if it were my kitchen (and that old corner of the house truly can't be altered) is do what ccoombs1 said move the cooktop to the left of the sink. But I would then slide the peninsula over to the cooktop and the steps next to the old house corner. Ventilation would be easy to the outside and not such a looming presence in the room. Prep is still facing breakfast area. I would also try to shrink either the DW or cooktop to allow a full 24" deep counter there (maybe reuse cabinets replaced by cooktop cabinet?).

Having the steps that steep and so close to the work area would make me nervous. Moving the steps away from the work area to the old house corner and maybe adding another step so they aren't so steep would make the kitchen nicer to work in at least to me. It would also have less total counter space and cabinet space, but to me it would be worth the sacrifice to be more comfortable working in it.

Don't know if that will work with the cabinets sis presently has but I think that will work most like a kitchen and less like a coast-line.

Good luck. Knotty problem this.

That way you keep all the perimeter cabs intact - the cooktop would just fit where the sink was - and the plumbing should be relatively easy.

loves2cook4six, I liked yours too except for range-oven door to ref door contention.

Waves to mindstorm

Well, you have all been very busy and I haven't been visiting the forum here too much lately, except to scan the hot topics...but, tonight I'm working late and needed a break!

You are so nice to try to help your sister out this way! If I tried to help my sister with a design issue, we might end up pulling each others hair out!

If I had to vote for a plan, the one that Rhome did originally is the cleanest and best solution for the space. I totally get that your sister doesn't want to rotate those cabinets to the hall, but what the heck - get a great kitchen or keep compromising? Plus, it will dress up the kitchen and the contents are right around the corner for easy access. Just put the things you don't need twice a day there. My experience tells me that she IS GOING TO HAVE TO COMPROMISE SOMEWHERE! And, that would be one beautiful kitchen!

OK One other thing and its a big one...Did she realize that if the island goes, she is likely going to have some patching to do in that hardwood floor? I'm not sure if the hardwood extends fully under the island, but looks to me like there has to be electrical and gas going up through that cabinetry, unless they function on magic alone. Then, does the hardwood run throughout the main floor? If so, then she may be looking at a full refinish as most good hardwood people won't seam a stain and finish at a doorway. So, her small project may not be that small after all.

It's a tough cookie, that kitchen, but the island and the hood need to go! The other alternate with the range & penninsula next to the dishwasher would work, but it's definitely not ideal. That's a lot of appliance all together....

This will be one fun posting to come back to!!!

Mindimoo, the layout you are referring to has same deal-breaking (to me) disadvantage as does the current layout - 12" on either side of the stove. My pre-remodel kitchen was excrutiatingly similar to that design except that I had 15" on either side of the stove (well, 16" with overhang). It was painful and the raison d'etre for my entire remodel as I think it is for celtic's sis (see problem #1 in her list of problems).
I also don't think it is efficient to have the sink so far (across the kitchen and past several doorways to the room) from the stove.

Putting the range on the sink wall may place the "appliances" together but it makes it an efficient kitchen. The footprint of that kitchen is not large and "efficiency" should be the mot juste in the context of that space.
Gwent said it best - too much kitchen for that space!

A great many people build traditional kitchens with the range with cabinets to the counter top only 12" away from the range. A 36" range is rarely ever used with all the burners on and can be a "resting place" for cooking materials during most uses.

Also, I would suggest a smaller island or "work table" be installed in the center of the room. If an island, it could include a prep sink or a work table that is not stationary and could be slid over to the penninsula if floor space is needed. I'm not a huge fan of potfillers, but that could solve the need for water at the range - but, my biggest gripe about them is you still need to drain. I would go for the work table - have used them for many clients and they love them! Even if they are as narrow as 22" they've been a lifesaver in a cramped kitchen. They look better as a "furniture piece" anyway. C'est magnifique IMHO!

AND, the biggest plus, a prep area and dish landing area directly behind the cook - Or slid to the side of the range during prep for large meals if necessary.

Wishing best of luck, this is a tough one!

I should maybe clarify that this is a pretty high end and large house with gobs of cabinetry everywhere for storage. The kitchen is definitely small relative to the house, but changing the footprint means major reworking of rooms, doorways, floor heights, porches, etc. She has been through several huge renovations in the last 30+ years and really doesn't want the expense and mess of another major one. Just some improvement.

Without ripping out the perimeter or replacing the appliances. That's the hard part.

Best I can do is:

Which from the breakfast room side would be something like this:

No doubt the guy can make it look good. That he can do. (He should just never ever be allowed to lay out a kitchen again!)

I do want to say we appreciate the suggestions that involve changing out appliances or deleting/moving cabinet runs. But she just can't go there. Not my place to explain, but it'd be kinda like if in the last renovation, the contractor embezzled tens of thousands, the tile man ran over the dog, her husband took off with the decorator and she got really sick from drywall dust. Kinda like all that, only way worse. Trust me on this one - a major renovation is off the table.

No wonder that her kitchen is chock full of 19" deep and 13" cabinetry - it was designed by a furniture man! It boggled my mind for a while that she should have all these non-standard sized cabinets - beautifully finished, at that - which must have cost a pretty penny but in such a wonky layout. You've just answered a lot of bewildering questions.

Not to beat a dead horse, but just in case someone reads this thread for layout concepts etc ....

Mindimoo, 12" is still a paltry 12" no matter how much one can wax eloquent about zone separation. Heck, she has "zone separation" now, LOL! (I don't understand the hood and no-backstop comments since both plans we're debating eliminates them.) Separating your work zones does you not an ounce of good if those zones are impractical and I can tell you that even with abutting walls 12" is *not* sufficient. I had 15" of counterspace on either side in just the same sort of configuration as in your diagram (against a wall) and it was utterly inconvenient - and my DH and I are very slender people (I'm ~85 lbs at 5'3", the DH is over 6' and 140lbs) so if I say that things are cramped, you can generally believe it. ;-)

There are other issues about that layout that are tres dangereux aussi. I recognize them because I had them in my previous layout except not quite as exaggerated as in your layout but bad enough.

Abutting zones, I think there is a line between puritanism and practicality here. Ordinarily, I'd have said that that faithful a separation is more realizable in a larger space, but I'll even go so far as to say that it is not efficient. The best layouts have a sink (and no, I don't mean a pot filler) pretty close to the stove; while the creme de la creme will do as you say with two sinks - supporting clean-up and prep. In a small kitchen, where two sinks are inadmissible, to be efficient then, the main sink should be within proximity of the stove. In my remodeled kitchen, in an attempt to extirpate past sins of insufficient workspace, I have close to 6 feet between sink and stove (one sink kitchen only) but in the same run. When it is only me working in there or when I'm trying to clean up the stove etc. I have to confess that that is too much; we'd designed the kitchen for two and that 6' is perfection when we're working there together. but when just one there, it is a smidge much. So, I'm now a believer that there should be a sink close to the stove. And while I don't think having one across an aisle from the other is bad at all, having one across the aisle into which two doorways open IS a bad thing.

Celtic's new layout is imminently practical as it nets both extremely decent operating space by the sink and the stove and it provides the proximity between the zones.

Ok, I've said my piece ;-)

Every time you need something from the fridge or need to get to the sink you have to cross this busy road so to speak. Just imagine having a dinner party - trying to get food in and out the oven while someone is trying to fill a water pitcher at the sink and everyone wants something out the fridge.

What if you need the microwave to melt 2 tbsp butter while you're cooking or baking. You have to walk halfway round the kitchen to get there or dirty another saucepan on the stove.

You've basically divided the kitchen and made the working area tiny while also making it the main thoroughfare. At least as it is now there is an alternate route (although very tight with 20") to get around the island when the cook is working.

What about going with Cooombs design but turning the range at right angles so it faces the family room, then use a modern vent hood that becomes a design feature or install the gagg downdraft. That way you really open the kitchen instead of causing congestion

I like Bmore's solution better than Celtic's because it isn't as congested but maybe something in between would work. Making the counter behind the range 12" instead of 24" in Celtics plan still leaves you with enough counter there to provide a landing for the Advantium but adds more space in front for traffic to flow from the breakfast room to the sink and fridge. Notching the corner a bit on the fridge side will go a long way to makeing the space feel more open as well. I hope your sister finds a solution that's not too painful to execute. Best wishes.

Couple ideas I haven't responded to specifically:

Loves2cookfor6 suggested the range at the window. The current sink cabinet is actually very narrow, more like 30 than 36, so a tradeout won't work. I love the part about moving the steps (and we believe the original room-wide steps are stil there under the skinny penninsula) to make a functional U though. But there seems no way to do that without tearing out a lot.

Range where the fridge is would be a workable swap but without much landing room for the range. DR doorway to the right and the cabinetry to the left of the fridge drops to the counter. Crowded landing with the sink right there as well. And where then would the fridge go? We are back to trearing out cabinetry or adding a wall.

Range in a corner would require taking out a lot of cabinetry. Might as well start over completely.

The traffic concerns with the plan I posted are certainly legitimate. But then, right now the through traffic is passing by the range in a 36 inch aisle, and right at the fridge no less! Actually most passage traffic now stays in the hall straight to the family room. Dining room door is rarely used. Screwy 20 inch aisle is never used. Foragers to the fridge mostly come in the hall door, not up the breakfast room steps. But with a crowd, there is more of a traffic passing jam along that 42 sink aisle to the step than along the 36 range aisle. She was saying 3 inches more would help the aisle there. I put 6 more to make it 48, but could take more from the penninsula to widen that aisle. Maybe take it to 56 with 18 behind the range?

Gotta say I'm not crazy about my penninsula plan. I keep staring at the drawings trying to "see" another solution.....

There will be a little more counterspace. All foot traffic will be out of the normal working path. Including traffic going through the kitchen to the other rooms with the island gone.

You could even keep the same footprint - changing the size/shape of the island to make the one walkway bigger. The cooktop becomes more usable space as well. Add a contrast granite on the new island and the plan could work very well.

Also if you're using a 30" cooktop - we can go back to my original idea of putting it under the window and moving the sink to the dividing wall between the kitchen and breakfast area.

celtic: Is this a 2-story house? There are bound to be issues with relocating the hood. Every elbow in the duct work reduces efficiency. I assume she does not want to cut a new hole in the roof so any relocation would involve at least two additional elbows over what she has and venting out the side wall. Sadly, I don't think there is any easy/cheap fix to this problem since everything she has is high end and all changes will need to take that into consideration.

Seems a great 'function' fix comes down to a major deal like:
-revisiting the loadbearing corner
-ditching some of the perimeter cabinetry
-extending the Advantium wall across the breakfast room

A fairly good fix comes down to a less disruptive:
-replacing the 36 with a 30 induction and glass hood or downdraft
-working that into a penninsula

And the more marginal fix would be some kind of penninsula that recycles the existing range and hood.

Tough one.

PS I emailed ccombs and asked him/her to downsize that oversized plan that has everything scrolling to the right. It woked for a day but is giant again. Weird.

Are her concerns more financial or not being in a situation to deal with the disruption that more remodeling will bring (due to stress or health)? It is always a very difficult thing to rework something you've put a lot of energy and/or money into--at the same time staring at the mistake everyday and dealing with the resultant frustration, can be a very negative experience as well.

I'd miss the dog most dreadfully; especially at a time like this.

True.

So maybe she should bite the bullet, move that porch door and bump the range penninsula into the breakfast room 2 feet.

This leaves all the existing lovely perimeter fully intact, except for the Advantium cabinet and skinny peninsula. (pink is new: range penninsula and 5' island.) I suspect this would leave enough of the original loadbearing corner to hold up the house.

Kinda radical but solves a lot of the problems. New range vent goes in without crossing existing cabinetry. Header for the relocated doorway exists at the window. Step can be built over existing. Flooring can be redone. Cabinet guy can make it all look right. Negatives are that the relocated Advantium and warming drawer end up under counter. Compromises, compromises.

PS You did catch that there wasn't a dog. That scenario was just to convey the scale of her troubles when this kithen went in unsupervised - without getting into her personal stuff.

Another thought, though, in your plan is to reuse the side sections of the existing island in the new one and stick to that width. Psychologically and/or financially, I'd think the more she can reuse her existing instead of having to dump it and start over would help towards making her feel better about this plan.

I really mean no disrespect here, but your sister has a BEAUTIFUL kitchen. That kitchen is gorgeous and I wouldn't change a thing. Especially in these tough economic times with people losing their jobs and the economy going in the the tank, it kind of shocks me that someone couldn't appreciate the beautiful kitchen they have and need to throw more money at that situation.

Sorry, again, no disrespect but that kitchen is soooooo nice and I couldn't imagine dropping more $$$ into changing it at all. Just be thankful for what you have...it's beautiful.

ALL of us are in better shape and have bigger, nicer kitchens than 99% of the rest of the world. Who said we aren't thankful for it?

Besides, contractors are struggling right now, so I feel it our duty to help keep them afloat. If we have money and don't spend it, the trades will go out of business.

"You don't need to feel guilty about how you spend, but don't get so upset when someone reminds you of how good you have it compared to most."

Actually, I do get upset because I think it's the height of arrogance to think for one minute that anyone here needs to be reminded of their good fortune. Comments like these are all about trying to make someone feel guilty.

For whosthebosch to come in this thread and opine that the owner of this kitchen is ungrateful or unappreciative is offensive. It smacks of jealousy that someone else may be financially fortunate enough to spend some money on a reno even during tough economic times. If you don't have anything positive to add to the dialogue, why don't you simply move onto another thread and keep your rude comments to yourself?

Furthermore the kitchen may look pretty but to people who actually cook in their kitchens a pretty kitchen is not very useful if it's not functional.

This site is for solicited constructive criticism of design, component, and other topics related to a remodel, not to criticize someone for doing one in the first place.

So, let's let this drop now and focus on the true topic at hand...improving the OP's sister's kitchen!

The only possible negative I see is that w/a 39" aisle and the DW opening in that aisle whoever is cleaning up will be blocked from the shortest route to the Breakfast Room...they'll have to go around the island when cleaning up from that room. However, it is much better than what she has now! (The island can easily be used for "staging" the dirty dishes, leftovers, etc. from the Breakfast Room, so I think it might be OK.)

BTW...do the aisle widths take into account the counter overhangs? If not, the aisles will be narrower by a couple of inches. You might want to shift the island slightly to the right. Yes, that will further reduce the through aisle, but there won't be anything there other than the shallow cabinets. I'd think about where I need the wider aisle...b/w the sink/DW and island or in the walkway. This is a personal choice...there's no "right" or "wrong"!

As to the WD being under counter, mine is and it's not that bad as it's in the "middle" drawer location. The Advantium, though, would be better a little higher but, as you say, compromises!

If it were me, I think I'd accept the compromises to gain more counter space, more workspace around the range, and a better traffic pattern...oh, and a less obtrusive range hood!

Sometimes a well-functioning kitchen is "prettier" than a dysfunctional one.

If she decides to go w/a MW Drawer as suggested by Valinsv, then I recommend the 24" one instead of the 30". In reality, they have the same internal dimensions. That would give her another 6" to play with...so she could add the 3 to 5 inches needed to make the aisle b/w the sink/DW & the island 42"; the extra couple of inches could go to the walkway.

If she made the island 33" deep rather than 36", it would give her another 3" on the refrigerator side and still have an island 8" or so deeper than a standard counter. She could put in 9" pullouts facing each end of the islands or a 9" deep set of open shelves (or shallow cabinet) on the refrigerator side.

The WD, at least, should definitely be on the range side of the island. I think I also prefer the MW on the range side, but it doesn't have to be. If it's on the refrigerator side it would be close for cooking/reheating things out of the refrigerator or freezer, but you would have to run around the island to get to it from the range side. In either location it can be easily accessed by snackers w/o interfering with work in the kitchen.

Would she want to reuse the two 12" cabinets that face out in her current island? If she has an appliance side 24"D then the two 12" cabs could be rotated 90% and put side by side butting up to the back of the other cabinets--perhaps for use as a "cantry". How wide are they? They look to be about the right size--30" wide?

Loves2, An island (with reasonable aisles) can't fit without taking out the Advantium AND bumping into the breakfast room (which means moving the porch door). The alternative is Buehl's much earlier drawing of a range penninsula where the skinny penninsula is now.

Buehl, appreciate your keen thoughts on deploying each inch. 42 would be better at the sink for sure. A few of you have noted that point. Well taken.

Valins, the counter treatment is dicey. (Great memory on SIL Barrelhaus' kitchen BTW! She remains thrilled, and while breaking all kinds of clearance 'rules' the kitchen still works great for her and her family. A Gardenweb triumph! And what IS with my family and weird kitchen design challenges anyway...?) I could see a different counter treatment for a work island, but that still leaves seaming in the range area. Sure would be nice to somehow recycle the skinny island's 19.75 x 54 granite to left and right of the range...

First thing first though. Sis needs to determine her limits - dollar and energy wise.

This has been a very helpful and fruitful discussion. I know my brain got well exercised. Whatever direction she chooses, I feel pretty sure all the options have surfaced here. Just as I hoped.

Thanks!!