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celticmoon_gw

ultimate layout challenge - odd island in gorgeous kitchen

celticmoon
15 years ago

Hello layout folks!

My sister wants to fix her troubling island situation. She calls her kitchen "a range and hood surrounded by cabinets". Kitchen has lovely Peacock-ish custom cabinets exploiting every inch, and she wants to leave the perimeter alone. Given that, the cabinet to cabinet open space in the middle is 11'4 sink run to shallow cabinet and only 9'3" from fridge wall to the step dropoff.


Problems are

  1. the midget island with 36 range and large hood and only 12 inches counter either side.
  2. a 20 inch aisle, yes that is 20!!, at a loadbearing corner near the Advantium wall (at left corner edge of range island above).
  3. two steps down to the breakfast area, that start without a visual cue because counters continue for the step.

Here is the floorplan with counters shaded - much of cebinetry is full depth to the ceiling.

Here's view toward family room:

View back toward DR and hall to the right

And the step 'issue'



Link to other pix at the bottom.

So what do you suggest?????

I think I have an idea but want your "fresh eyes".

Thanks!

Here is a link that might be useful: my sister's beautiful dysfunctional kitchen

Comments (89)

  • ccoombs1
    15 years ago

    Here's a visual of my suggestion. It may not even work....the range may be too close to the dishwasher.

  • mindstorm
    15 years ago

    ccombs, That had been my thought also. That is why I'd suggested perhaps replacing the 19" deep cabinets here (actually, probably 18" deep cabs) with the 12" deep cabinets that are presently on either side of the range in sliding the peninsula over. Those 12" deep cabinets face out to the sides of the current island so appear to be 12" deep but perhaps 24" wide. Then with 2 of the 12" deep, 24" wide cabinets replacing the cabs in the 19" counter, she'd have a perhaps 13" counter here but it would get her another 6" between new-peninsula and the end of the range.

  • kelleg69
    15 years ago

    FYI. I took pix of this kitchen to a granite place today b/c I really like the granite. They said it is Waterfall Green. Their slabs of that had a lot pink in them, though. FWIW for anyone interested in that granite...

  • bmorepanic
    15 years ago

    I kind of like ccombs except it kills her dish storage.

  • loves2cook4six
    15 years ago

    What about my original idea of the cooktop at the window and the sink in the dividing counter between the two rooms - works even better if you move the steps.

    That way you keep all the perimeter cabs intact - the cooktop would just fit where the sink was - and the plumbing should be relatively easy.

  • bmorepanic
    15 years ago

    Celtic? Do you have more relatives? :)

    loves2cook4six, I liked yours too except for range-oven door to ref door contention.

    Waves to mindstorm

  • chinchette
    15 years ago

    I can't read the thread any more without scrolling from side to side. I think its because someone put in oversized pictures.

  • mindimoo
    15 years ago

    Hello All!

    Well, you have all been very busy and I haven't been visiting the forum here too much lately, except to scan the hot topics...but, tonight I'm working late and needed a break!

    You are so nice to try to help your sister out this way! If I tried to help my sister with a design issue, we might end up pulling each others hair out!

    If I had to vote for a plan, the one that Rhome did originally is the cleanest and best solution for the space. I totally get that your sister doesn't want to rotate those cabinets to the hall, but what the heck - get a great kitchen or keep compromising? Plus, it will dress up the kitchen and the contents are right around the corner for easy access. Just put the things you don't need twice a day there. My experience tells me that she IS GOING TO HAVE TO COMPROMISE SOMEWHERE! And, that would be one beautiful kitchen!

    OK One other thing and its a big one...Did she realize that if the island goes, she is likely going to have some patching to do in that hardwood floor? I'm not sure if the hardwood extends fully under the island, but looks to me like there has to be electrical and gas going up through that cabinetry, unless they function on magic alone. Then, does the hardwood run throughout the main floor? If so, then she may be looking at a full refinish as most good hardwood people won't seam a stain and finish at a doorway. So, her small project may not be that small after all.

    It's a tough cookie, that kitchen, but the island and the hood need to go! The other alternate with the range & penninsula next to the dishwasher would work, but it's definitely not ideal. That's a lot of appliance all together....

    This will be one fun posting to come back to!!!

  • gwent
    15 years ago

    The layout ladies are giving you great advice. It looks like a case of too much kitchen in not enough space. A lesson to us all! Might this have been done at the height of the 80s? A cautionary tale?
    Good luck- This will be fun to watch as it progresses.

  • mindstorm
    15 years ago

    waving back madly to bmorepanic :-)

    Mindimoo, the layout you are referring to has same deal-breaking (to me) disadvantage as does the current layout - 12" on either side of the stove. My pre-remodel kitchen was excrutiatingly similar to that design except that I had 15" on either side of the stove (well, 16" with overhang). It was painful and the raison d'etre for my entire remodel as I think it is for celtic's sis (see problem #1 in her list of problems).
    I also don't think it is efficient to have the sink so far (across the kitchen and past several doorways to the room) from the stove.

    Putting the range on the sink wall may place the "appliances" together but it makes it an efficient kitchen. The footprint of that kitchen is not large and "efficiency" should be the mot juste in the context of that space.
    Gwent said it best - too much kitchen for that space!

  • mindimoo
    15 years ago

    Mindstorm, I get it about the 12" on either side of the range, but I am all about separate work zones and the range next to the dishwasher is just too much working zone area together. Since we seem to be pulling out our francais (smile :-)), the raison d'etre is also the obvious hulking hood, Mon Dieu! and, the perilous safety issues of a cooktop on an island with only 12" on either side and no true buffer on the back, tres mal et dangereux!

    A great many people build traditional kitchens with the range with cabinets to the counter top only 12" away from the range. A 36" range is rarely ever used with all the burners on and can be a "resting place" for cooking materials during most uses.

    Also, I would suggest a smaller island or "work table" be installed in the center of the room. If an island, it could include a prep sink or a work table that is not stationary and could be slid over to the penninsula if floor space is needed. I'm not a huge fan of potfillers, but that could solve the need for water at the range - but, my biggest gripe about them is you still need to drain. I would go for the work table - have used them for many clients and they love them! Even if they are as narrow as 22" they've been a lifesaver in a cramped kitchen. They look better as a "furniture piece" anyway. C'est magnifique IMHO!

    AND, the biggest plus, a prep area and dish landing area directly behind the cook - Or slid to the side of the range during prep for large meals if necessary.

    Wishing best of luck, this is a tough one!

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    How about a variation of ccomb's layout with the range going in the corner and a partial wall being built-up behind it--perhaps with a niche behind the range? What I like about her design is that by relocatiing the step it removes cross traffic from the cook's workzone; however the range and sink are just too close together. My other vote is for rhome's plan. The narrow cabients could alternatively be placed in the dining room and some other type of built-in storage added to the hallway--perhaps a message center? I have built-ins in my DR for additional storage, wine glasses, etc. It works very well for us when entertaining to serve drinks in the DR and not clutter up the kitchen when the cook is serving/cooking dinner.

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Such great ideas...

    I should maybe clarify that this is a pretty high end and large house with gobs of cabinetry everywhere for storage. The kitchen is definitely small relative to the house, but changing the footprint means major reworking of rooms, doorways, floor heights, porches, etc. She has been through several huge renovations in the last 30+ years and really doesn't want the expense and mess of another major one. Just some improvement.

    Without ripping out the perimeter or replacing the appliances. That's the hard part.

    Best I can do is:

    Which from the breakfast room side would be something like this:

    No doubt the guy can make it look good. That he can do. (He should just never ever be allowed to lay out a kitchen again!)

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Oh, and I tried the range facing the shallow hutch but there was no landing room. And pushing the range to abut the skinny penninsula leaves no prep space except next to the sink. The corner range would solve problems, as would putting the range where the fridge or chinas are, but those are more than she wants to take on.

    I do want to say we appreciate the suggestions that involve changing out appliances or deleting/moving cabinet runs. But she just can't go there. Not my place to explain, but it'd be kinda like if in the last renovation, the contractor embezzled tens of thousands, the tile man ran over the dog, her husband took off with the decorator and she got really sick from drywall dust. Kinda like all that, only way worse. Trust me on this one - a major renovation is off the table.

  • rhome410
    15 years ago

    Wow!...Ok then. This will be an improvement and WAY better than going through all of that! Best and sincerest wishes to her on her improved kitchen!

  • mindstorm
    15 years ago

    Oh my! What a horror! Wish your sister all the best and certainly your new layout will serve her far better than her current kitchen.

    No wonder that her kitchen is chock full of 19" deep and 13" cabinetry - it was designed by a furniture man! It boggled my mind for a while that she should have all these non-standard sized cabinets - beautifully finished, at that - which must have cost a pretty penny but in such a wonky layout. You've just answered a lot of bewildering questions.

    Not to beat a dead horse, but just in case someone reads this thread for layout concepts etc ....

    Mindimoo, 12" is still a paltry 12" no matter how much one can wax eloquent about zone separation. Heck, she has "zone separation" now, LOL! (I don't understand the hood and no-backstop comments since both plans we're debating eliminates them.) Separating your work zones does you not an ounce of good if those zones are impractical and I can tell you that even with abutting walls 12" is *not* sufficient. I had 15" of counterspace on either side in just the same sort of configuration as in your diagram (against a wall) and it was utterly inconvenient - and my DH and I are very slender people (I'm ~85 lbs at 5'3", the DH is over 6' and 140lbs) so if I say that things are cramped, you can generally believe it. ;-)

    There are other issues about that layout that are tres dangereux aussi. I recognize them because I had them in my previous layout except not quite as exaggerated as in your layout but bad enough.

    Abutting zones, I think there is a line between puritanism and practicality here. Ordinarily, I'd have said that that faithful a separation is more realizable in a larger space, but I'll even go so far as to say that it is not efficient. The best layouts have a sink (and no, I don't mean a pot filler) pretty close to the stove; while the creme de la creme will do as you say with two sinks - supporting clean-up and prep. In a small kitchen, where two sinks are inadmissible, to be efficient then, the main sink should be within proximity of the stove. In my remodeled kitchen, in an attempt to extirpate past sins of insufficient workspace, I have close to 6 feet between sink and stove (one sink kitchen only) but in the same run. When it is only me working in there or when I'm trying to clean up the stove etc. I have to confess that that is too much; we'd designed the kitchen for two and that 6' is perfection when we're working there together. but when just one there, it is a smidge much. So, I'm now a believer that there should be a sink close to the stove. And while I don't think having one across an aisle from the other is bad at all, having one across the aisle into which two doorways open IS a bad thing.

    Celtic's new layout is imminently practical as it nets both extremely decent operating space by the sink and the stove and it provides the proximity between the zones.

    Ok, I've said my piece ;-)

  • loves2cook4six
    15 years ago

    I honestly think with the range where it is in Celtic's latest plan you're going to have horrible congestion when cooking being as that's the main route to the fridge from the family's living areas.

    Every time you need something from the fridge or need to get to the sink you have to cross this busy road so to speak. Just imagine having a dinner party - trying to get food in and out the oven while someone is trying to fill a water pitcher at the sink and everyone wants something out the fridge.

    What if you need the microwave to melt 2 tbsp butter while you're cooking or baking. You have to walk halfway round the kitchen to get there or dirty another saucepan on the stove.

    You've basically divided the kitchen and made the working area tiny while also making it the main thoroughfare. At least as it is now there is an alternate route (although very tight with 20") to get around the island when the cook is working.

    What about going with Cooombs design but turning the range at right angles so it faces the family room, then use a modern vent hood that becomes a design feature or install the gagg downdraft. That way you really open the kitchen instead of causing congestion

  • chinchette
    15 years ago

    What is her cooking style? If she had a 36" induction cooktop on that island instead of the gas, she would wind up using part of the flat induction top as counter space when those sections are not being used. She could also build in a cutting board on the side of the island that retracts into the island and comes out when needed for more counter space. And use a glass hood.

  • cheri127
    15 years ago

    Wow. This has been such an interesting thread. Not being terribly creative, I've had nothing to contribute, but now that you guys have done all of the work....

    I like Bmore's solution better than Celtic's because it isn't as congested but maybe something in between would work. Making the counter behind the range 12" instead of 24" in Celtics plan still leaves you with enough counter there to provide a landing for the Advantium but adds more space in front for traffic to flow from the breakfast room to the sink and fridge. Notching the corner a bit on the fridge side will go a long way to makeing the space feel more open as well. I hope your sister finds a solution that's not too painful to execute. Best wishes.

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Hello all. Yeah, Mindstorm, it was designed by a cabinet guy. This mess came to be when the last major addition made the existing kitchen cabinetry look tired. Somewhere between agreeing and design/installation, she ended up completely out of commission, so the cabinet guy had to wing it. And I am sure he meant well with all that was happening. But yikes!

    Couple ideas I haven't responded to specifically:

    Loves2cookfor6 suggested the range at the window. The current sink cabinet is actually very narrow, more like 30 than 36, so a tradeout won't work. I love the part about moving the steps (and we believe the original room-wide steps are stil there under the skinny penninsula) to make a functional U though. But there seems no way to do that without tearing out a lot.

    Range where the fridge is would be a workable swap but without much landing room for the range. DR doorway to the right and the cabinetry to the left of the fridge drops to the counter. Crowded landing with the sink right there as well. And where then would the fridge go? We are back to trearing out cabinetry or adding a wall.

    Range in a corner would require taking out a lot of cabinetry. Might as well start over completely.

    The traffic concerns with the plan I posted are certainly legitimate. But then, right now the through traffic is passing by the range in a 36 inch aisle, and right at the fridge no less! Actually most passage traffic now stays in the hall straight to the family room. Dining room door is rarely used. Screwy 20 inch aisle is never used. Foragers to the fridge mostly come in the hall door, not up the breakfast room steps. But with a crowd, there is more of a traffic passing jam along that 42 sink aisle to the step than along the 36 range aisle. She was saying 3 inches more would help the aisle there. I put 6 more to make it 48, but could take more from the penninsula to widen that aisle. Maybe take it to 56 with 18 behind the range?

    Gotta say I'm not crazy about my penninsula plan. I keep staring at the drawings trying to "see" another solution.....

  • bmorepanic
    15 years ago

    Can stairs go where advantium is?

  • lyfia
    15 years ago

    I'm not sure fully of the scale. If you can move the stairs then maybe put the stove along the same wall as the sink wall right next to the DW and move the 19" counter over and put the stairs next to the advantium wall.

    There will be a little more counterspace. All foot traffic will be out of the normal working path. Including traffic going through the kitchen to the other rooms with the island gone.

  • cheri127
    15 years ago

    Considering all the constraints, I think the peninsula plan is a pretty good one especially since most of the traffic isn't from the breakfast room.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    I am with love2cookfor6 on this one--she'd be trading one set of problems for another and the peninsula idea will still require significant work--to the floor, moving gas lines and HVAC work, plus new counters and some cabinetry work, though I do love the wrap around hutch idea facing out to the breakfast room. I'd feel very uncomfortable cooking so close to the "cliff"--esp. if some of the very counterspace had steps below. I'd rather orient that range to the opposite side and endure the inconvenience of not being close to the sink to have a protected space behind me and not have my main cook zone overlap the steps. Before even tackling that degree of modifications for what will again be a suboptimal solution, I'd investigate more seriously some of the induction cooktop/gas hood options presented above--even if it meant going with 30" range--after all she does also have the advantium and warming drawer to use which is also why I'd prefer the range to be rotated in the peninsula plan.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    How about removing the warming drawer and putting an oven there and then downgrading to a 30" cooktop (gas or induction) with pot drawers below in something like buehl's plan. Then add a rolling island for added prep space where she needs it. Current appliances could probably be resold on Craigslist to recoup some of her losses. There are definite tradeoffs here in the amount of space taken for all the appliances, counter and cabinet space.

  • loves2cook4six
    15 years ago

    valinsv has a point. The cost of getting a 30" induction cooktop, gagg downdraft and a new oven could way offset the cost of everything else we're talking about plus the "profit from selling the old range would help as well.

    You could even keep the same footprint - changing the size/shape of the island to make the one walkway bigger. The cooktop becomes more usable space as well. Add a contrast granite on the new island and the plan could work very well.

    Also if you're using a 30" cooktop - we can go back to my original idea of putting it under the window and moving the sink to the dividing wall between the kitchen and breakfast area.

  • tam18420
    15 years ago

    Since the steps are never used now, how about closing up that entire section where the steps are? So you would get rid of the 19" counter and replace them with the range and full depth counters (similar to mamapapapaige's but without the steps)? You can put in a new wall for the hood, but gain a good amount of counterspace as landing area or prep work.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    loves2cook4six: Only problem with putting the cooktop under the window is the DW would then need to move to the new sink location and there does not look to be enough room--plus there will still be the lack of counterspace on that side. I don't have induction myself though it sounds wonderful. Makes we wish I'd considered it in my own remodel, though I do like my gas cooktop. It sounds like when the heating elements are not in use it could double as counter space.

    celtic: Is this a 2-story house? There are bound to be issues with relocating the hood. Every elbow in the duct work reduces efficiency. I assume she does not want to cut a new hole in the roof so any relocation would involve at least two additional elbows over what she has and venting out the side wall. Sadly, I don't think there is any easy/cheap fix to this problem since everything she has is high end and all changes will need to take that into consideration.

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Yeah Valinsv, it is a 2 story... If she did go with an induction, would a downdraft vent be less problematic?

    Seems a great 'function' fix comes down to a major deal like:
    -revisiting the loadbearing corner
    -ditching some of the perimeter cabinetry
    -extending the Advantium wall across the breakfast room

    A fairly good fix comes down to a less disruptive:
    -replacing the 36 with a 30 induction and glass hood or downdraft
    -working that into a penninsula

    And the more marginal fix would be some kind of penninsula that recycles the existing range and hood.

    Tough one.

    PS I emailed ccombs and asked him/her to downsize that oversized plan that has everything scrolling to the right. It woked for a day but is giant again. Weird.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    That would be my assessment of her options as well. From a functional persepective, I think ccombs is on the right track; however, the issue with touching the perimeter will affect not only the cabinets to the left of the sink run, but the counters as I doubt she'd be able to get a matched seam with her granite which seems to have a lot of movement to it. It'd be helpful to know how frequently she uses her different appliances. Does she use the advantium, cooktop or oven most often? I cannot answer your question about the downdraft as I don't have one--but know from experience and reading this board for the past few years that venting issues can be extremely problematic and/or expensive. When doing my remodel I found that what Vent-a-hood reps. said (no elbows or only one 45% elbow at most) was very different from my GC who put in elbows all the time. I just bring it up as a topic to address because this is a person who has already had a lot of problems, can't take much more and needs a well thought out solution. No doubt there is lots of good info. on downdraft options on the appliance forum.

    Are her concerns more financial or not being in a situation to deal with the disruption that more remodeling will bring (due to stress or health)? It is always a very difficult thing to rework something you've put a lot of energy and/or money into--at the same time staring at the mistake everyday and dealing with the resultant frustration, can be a very negative experience as well.

  • mindstorm
    15 years ago

    It is always a very difficult thing to rework something you've put a lot of energy and/or money into--at the same time staring at the mistake everyday and dealing with the resultant frustration, can be a very negative experience as well.

    I'd miss the dog most dreadfully; especially at a time like this.

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    It is always a very difficult thing to rework something you've put a lot of energy and/or money into--at the same time staring at the mistake everyday and dealing with the resultant frustration, can be a very negative experience as well.

    True.

    So maybe she should bite the bullet, move that porch door and bump the range penninsula into the breakfast room 2 feet.

    This leaves all the existing lovely perimeter fully intact, except for the Advantium cabinet and skinny peninsula. (pink is new: range penninsula and 5' island.) I suspect this would leave enough of the original loadbearing corner to hold up the house.

    Kinda radical but solves a lot of the problems. New range vent goes in without crossing existing cabinetry. Header for the relocated doorway exists at the window. Step can be built over existing. Flooring can be redone. Cabinet guy can make it all look right. Negatives are that the relocated Advantium and warming drawer end up under counter. Compromises, compromises.

    PS You did catch that there wasn't a dog. That scenario was just to convey the scale of her troubles when this kithen went in unsupervised - without getting into her personal stuff.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    Looks good and I think it would be less disruptive/prone to problems than messing with the existing where there is so much possibility for periferal damage. Moreover, this plan will only enhance any potential resale value--instead of what she has presently which could turn off potential future buyers should she ever decide to sell. Does that leave her enough room in the breakfast room for her table and pathway to the side door? She may want to consider one of the glass island hoods if she finds the present one to be too obstructive--again resell on Criaglist. The warming drawer should be OK. Lots of people have microwaves in their islands so I'd think t he advantium should be fine as well--but if she doesn't like it she could switch to a Sharp microwave drawer. Since this guy does custom work, I'd definitely make all of her aisles at least 42" wide--esp. on the DW/RF sides.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    Celtic: What is your recommendation about the counters then? While her cabinets stay intact, there'd need to be new countertop seamed up to existing. Not at all sure how that'd look or if it's even possible. Perhaps another option short of doing that is to rework the lower cabinet to the left of the sink to house the advantium under counter and then add on a whole new section where the old advantium is for her range/hood/new counters. And no island or put in a smaller furniture style one on legs--perhaps similar to that one was it your SIL (barrelhaus (sp?)) put in with the drop leaves. That would leave the door/breakfast room intact. If this guy does custom work, I'd ask him if he can reconfigure lower bases onsite without removing the countertops. Leaving the uppers intact makes a lot of sense as there is a lot of molding trim work and leaving the counters intact is also important not to have to modify the existing granite or butt up new granite to old.

    Another thought, though, in your plan is to reuse the side sections of the existing island in the new one and stick to that width. Psychologically and/or financially, I'd think the more she can reuse her existing instead of having to dump it and start over would help towards making her feel better about this plan.

  • houseful
    15 years ago

    I like this new plan. Instead of moving the door, she could just make that window into French doors. I think the countertop issue could be remedied by using something completely different, like stainless steel.

  • whos_the_bosch
    15 years ago

    Wow, just wow.

    I really mean no disrespect here, but your sister has a BEAUTIFUL kitchen. That kitchen is gorgeous and I wouldn't change a thing. Especially in these tough economic times with people losing their jobs and the economy going in the the tank, it kind of shocks me that someone couldn't appreciate the beautiful kitchen they have and need to throw more money at that situation.

    Sorry, again, no disrespect but that kitchen is soooooo nice and I couldn't imagine dropping more $$$ into changing it at all. Just be thankful for what you have...it's beautiful.

  • segbrown
    15 years ago

    Well, it was disrespectful anyway.

    ALL of us are in better shape and have bigger, nicer kitchens than 99% of the rest of the world. Who said we aren't thankful for it?

    Besides, contractors are struggling right now, so I feel it our duty to help keep them afloat. If we have money and don't spend it, the trades will go out of business.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    whose_the_bosch: Just curious if you read the whole thread or just looked at the pictures? There are a whole lot of assumptions you are making without knowing one iota of the facts of the situation. This kitchen does not even come close to meeting minimum NKBA clearances for aisles (one is only 20" wide) and has only 12" to either side of her range for counterspace. These issues are quite legitimate and the OP is actually trying very hard to find ways to correct these problems with minimum expense and tear out. We are not talking about ripping out the granite and replacing it because it doesn't go with her color scheme, but even then, judgemental remarks questioning the necessity of someone's remodeling project are very inappropriate on a kitchen remodeling forum. If we all had that attitude, to tighten out belts and avoid unnecessary spending, the economy will only get worse--as we need people who have money, to go out and spend it, thereby providing jobs for everyone else.

  • cheri127
    15 years ago

    Segbrown has a point...and please don't use the trickle down economics theory to justify spending. The bottom line is that we all fall victim to the primitive part of our brains that says me, me, me sometimes and that's ok. The deeper, unanswerable question is where does one draw the line? Many on this forum would consider a $500K kitchen remodel over the top when charities are feeling the pinch of hard economic times as people give less. And there are those who earn $20K a year who think a $100K reno is extreme. There are many who would think they died and went to heaven with Celtic's sisters kitchen, flaws and all. Segbrown was just trying to say, hey...it's beautiful, are you sure it's money well spent in uncertain times to make it better? Go easy guys. You don't need to feel guilty about how you spend, but don't get so upset when someone reminds you of how good you have it compared to most.

  • whos_the_bosch
    15 years ago

    Sorry, but I did read the OP's post and read the complaints. The kitchen is beautiful as-is, and I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen a kitchen that looked that beautiful being used as the BEFORE photo in a remodel. Heck, it's nicer looking than many of the AFTER photos. At some point just be appreciative of what you have because it's amazing looking and I'm sure even after you do another complete re-do you'll find faults with that as well...we all do. We all look back and wish maybe we should have done this or that, but the bottom line is be appreciative of what you have, it looks great.

  • erikanh
    15 years ago

    How is it "trickle down economics" if my ongoing kitchen renovation will keep my contractor from having to lay off employees during these slower winter months? Most of these men have families to house and feed. Jobs like mine will keep them working throughout the whole winter so they can PAY THEIR BILLS! Hardly trickle down.

    "You don't need to feel guilty about how you spend, but don't get so upset when someone reminds you of how good you have it compared to most."

    Actually, I do get upset because I think it's the height of arrogance to think for one minute that anyone here needs to be reminded of their good fortune. Comments like these are all about trying to make someone feel guilty.

    For whosthebosch to come in this thread and opine that the owner of this kitchen is ungrateful or unappreciative is offensive. It smacks of jealousy that someone else may be financially fortunate enough to spend some money on a reno even during tough economic times. If you don't have anything positive to add to the dialogue, why don't you simply move onto another thread and keep your rude comments to yourself?

    Furthermore the kitchen may look pretty but to people who actually cook in their kitchens a pretty kitchen is not very useful if it's not functional.

  • Buehl
    15 years ago

    The OP's sister is, in point of fact, not planning "another complete re-do", nor is the currently proposed design "another complete re-do".

    This site is for solicited constructive criticism of design, component, and other topics related to a remodel, not to criticize someone for doing one in the first place.


    So, let's let this drop now and focus on the true topic at hand...improving the OP's sister's kitchen!

  • Buehl
    15 years ago

    CelticMoon...I like this latest plan. It gives your sister plenty of work space while protecting both the cooking and cleanup zones from through traffic.

    The only possible negative I see is that w/a 39" aisle and the DW opening in that aisle whoever is cleaning up will be blocked from the shortest route to the Breakfast Room...they'll have to go around the island when cleaning up from that room. However, it is much better than what she has now! (The island can easily be used for "staging" the dirty dishes, leftovers, etc. from the Breakfast Room, so I think it might be OK.)

    BTW...do the aisle widths take into account the counter overhangs? If not, the aisles will be narrower by a couple of inches. You might want to shift the island slightly to the right. Yes, that will further reduce the through aisle, but there won't be anything there other than the shallow cabinets. I'd think about where I need the wider aisle...b/w the sink/DW and island or in the walkway. This is a personal choice...there's no "right" or "wrong"!

    As to the WD being under counter, mine is and it's not that bad as it's in the "middle" drawer location. The Advantium, though, would be better a little higher but, as you say, compromises!

    If it were me, I think I'd accept the compromises to gain more counter space, more workspace around the range, and a better traffic pattern...oh, and a less obtrusive range hood!

  • loves2cook4six
    15 years ago

    What about turning the island 90 degrees and making it 36x 48 in the last plan? How will that effect the aisles especially if you line it up with the steps and doorway for added wiggle room? It sure will give you more room with the DW open and that new workspace is better than anything she currently has so 4 feet rather than 5 may be a fair compromise.

  • Buehl
    15 years ago

    The Advantium & WD are both in the island right now and will probably have to stay there (perimeter cabs don't currently have a place for them). What size are they? I'm assuming 30". At 30" each, the minimum width the island can be is 60". If they are less, then I would make the island that much less to increase the aisle width to at least 42", including the overhang, in front of the DW.

  • mom2lilenj
    15 years ago

    I think the island is placed the same as it is now to avoid redoing the whole floor. Is that correct? But if the floor needs to be re-done anyway I think a smaller island that allows 42" all around would be better.

    Sometimes a well-functioning kitchen is "prettier" than a dysfunctional one.

  • loves2cook4six
    15 years ago

    But if the advantium and the warming draw stay where they are now in the load bearing wall and the island is made smaller and possibly rotated, you may be able to work out the aisles so everyone is happy. Buehl?

  • Buehl
    15 years ago

    CelticMoon's plan has them moved to the island and only leaving as much as needed to support the house in that corner.

    If she decides to go w/a MW Drawer as suggested by Valinsv, then I recommend the 24" one instead of the 30". In reality, they have the same internal dimensions. That would give her another 6" to play with...so she could add the 3 to 5 inches needed to make the aisle b/w the sink/DW & the island 42"; the extra couple of inches could go to the walkway.

    If she made the island 33" deep rather than 36", it would give her another 3" on the refrigerator side and still have an island 8" or so deeper than a standard counter. She could put in 9" pullouts facing each end of the islands or a 9" deep set of open shelves (or shallow cabinet) on the refrigerator side.

    The WD, at least, should definitely be on the range side of the island. I think I also prefer the MW on the range side, but it doesn't have to be. If it's on the refrigerator side it would be close for cooking/reheating things out of the refrigerator or freezer, but you would have to run around the island to get to it from the range side. In either location it can be easily accessed by snackers w/o interfering with work in the kitchen.

  • Valerie Noronha
    15 years ago

    There are pros/cons to put the WD on either side of the island. If on the RF side, then it puts it closer to the dining room if she uses the WD for more formal dinners. The range side puts it closer to the breakfast room for daily use. Though I don't think you could open both the range and the WD at the same time--so you'd still need to open range, take out hot dish, put on burner, close the range and then open the WD to put the hot dish in. If on the opposite side, she'd have more steps but she could have the WD and range open at the same time when transferring a hot dish.

    Would she want to reuse the two 12" cabinets that face out in her current island? If she has an appliance side 24"D then the two 12" cabs could be rotated 90% and put side by side butting up to the back of the other cabinets--perhaps for use as a "cantry". How wide are they? They look to be about the right size--30" wide?

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    WhostheBosch, I agree it IS a flat out gorgeous kitchen. The whole the purpose of the thread is to explore any and all solutions that would be the least destructive to all that beauty. That 20 inch aisle is really quite wacko though, and the range island is woefully out of scale and has no work room. After seven years, it is time to think of how to fix it.

    Loves2, An island (with reasonable aisles) can't fit without taking out the Advantium AND bumping into the breakfast room (which means moving the porch door). The alternative is Buehl's much earlier drawing of a range penninsula where the skinny penninsula is now.

    Buehl, appreciate your keen thoughts on deploying each inch. 42 would be better at the sink for sure. A few of you have noted that point. Well taken.

    Valins, the counter treatment is dicey. (Great memory on SIL Barrelhaus' kitchen BTW! She remains thrilled, and while breaking all kinds of clearance 'rules' the kitchen still works great for her and her family. A Gardenweb triumph! And what IS with my family and weird kitchen design challenges anyway...?) I could see a different counter treatment for a work island, but that still leaves seaming in the range area. Sure would be nice to somehow recycle the skinny island's 19.75 x 54 granite to left and right of the range...


    First thing first though. Sis needs to determine her limits - dollar and energy wise.

    This has been a very helpful and fruitful discussion. I know my brain got well exercised. Whatever direction she chooses, I feel pretty sure all the options have surfaced here. Just as I hoped.

    Thanks!!