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dianeu_gw

After 20 years, finally time to reno the kitchen! Yippee!!

dianeu
9 years ago

Thanks to all of you who are taking the time to check out my post. I�ve been lurking here for a while, learning what I can from those of you with greater renovation experience. My family and I really need your help. Left to our own devices, we make very bad design and decor decisions. But this reno will be expensive, so we need input and support to ensure we are staying within bounds of good design. We do have some professionals involved, but would appreciate hearing from the larger GW community to feel secure in the decisions we make. Does the appliance placement look appropriate? Does the proposed reno have a good workflow? These are just two of the questions we have for you all.

My family and I are living in a 1974 split level house in Vancouver, BC�s Lower Mainland. Our kitchen is old and visually displeasing, so we are keen to rip it out and create a beautiful functional space. While I started the process thinking of wooden cabinets, it has become clear to me as I scan photos on GW and Houzz that what really makes my heart sing are the kitchens with white cabinets and what I might call a transitional kitchen (neither contemporary nor modern) with a beach house flair. Nothing stuffy or formal, but still succinct and attractive.

We are a family in transition, with 2 working adults and 2 teenagers, one of whom is away at University during the school year. The second teen will likely be out of the house for university in another 2 years. There is some shared cooking going on, but mostly there is only one person cooking at a time. Clean-up time on the other hand, may see 3 or all 4 of us involved. I very much value the nutritional as well as the social benefits of home cooked food. So yes, this kitchen will see heavy use each day.

We do like to entertain, and we come from large families. It is not unusual to have informal gatherings of 12-15 on weekends, so are looking to create a space that enhances those family times. Our proposed plans include tearing down walls between the kitchen and dining room as well as between the kitchen and living room. Moving toward the �grand room� concept. At present, I do have a small desk in an area of the living room, which will likely be maintained after the reno. So while I am not intending to have a computer in the kitchen itself, it will be within the grand room we are creating. Our goal is to create a warm and welcoming space for my family and friends to hang out.

We currently do most of our eating at the dining room table. The island we are planning to have will give us a second dining area within the space. While it seems that the trend is to do away with 2-level islands, for now it is planned that the eating area of the island will be raised above the working space of the island.
Standing in the new kitchen, one may look over the island and through the living room to the south-facing window which looks down the...

Comments (20)

  • flying_c
    9 years ago

    Pasting the pics into the thread should get you more help:

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  • dilly_ny
    9 years ago

    I am confused- your overhead layout shows cooktop on the island, but the 3 dimenionals do not.

    I would rather see the range where you currently show your fridge and the fridge to the left of the window, if you have the flexibility to move that window to make that work. Where you show the fridge now, every time someone wants to get something from the fridge, they'll be walking thru your work zone.

    There are trade offs to any layout. My fridge is a bit far from my dining table, but it works for us. Hopefully, others will weigh in on your plan. Good luck!

  • magpier
    9 years ago

    I am certainly no expert but I've generally seen it recommended to have more space between the sink and the stove. It tends to be the main prep area and can get crowded. Around 48" of space, if you can fit it, was recommended to me when I asked for help.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    I somewhat agree with dilly_ny's concern regarding fridge placement but people will have the ability to walk around to the end of the island and just access the fridge without having to walk through the cooking area so I think it will work. I would just shoo people out of the workspace until they are trained to go around. I do think your plan to place it there is more aesthetically pleasing. Unless one is doing a built-in fridge with matching cabinetry, I don't find any fridge aesthetically pleasing enough to have it sticking out in my room enough to be a focal point.

    I'm more concerned about the limited space between sink and cooktop. That is considered prime real estate as most food prep ends up being done there and your space there is very limited. It is recommended that this space be an absolute minimum of 36", preferably more. It looks like you have much less than that.

    Also, frequent GW poster Marcolo has an excellent suggestion for kitchen layouts recommending the "ice-water-stone-fire" principle, i.e. fridge-sink-prep counter-cooktop/oven. Your layout is backwards from that.

    Last concern is that your dishwasher is at the end where there is little storage. Where are you planning on storing your dishes, cutlery, etc.? It is so much more convenient to have that close to the DW.

    I think your kitchen looks quite lovely and I don't blame you for wanting to be able to look out on your views. I would, too. But I fear you will find that your layout isn't as functional as you would like.

    I'm not the best at offering solutions. Others here are far more visionary and gifted with that. But I wonder if your kitchen would function better as an L or as a modified U with a couple openings for entry/exit strategically placed.

    Hope someone gives you better and more specific ideas.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago

    Read the last two kitchen forum faqs listed here. Then read this.

  • dianeu
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks to all of you for your words of support and suggestions so far.

    Thanks, Flying_C for posting the pics within the posting itself. I was trying to follow the posted rules, but perhaps I misinterpreted something ;)

    dilly_ny, you are correct, the original professionally drawn floorplan had the cooktop/range on the island. However, in our minds we have moved it to the outside wall so that the required ventilation hood was not a visual distraction hanging out of the ceiling in an otherwise airy space. Let me know if youâÂÂve seen the original plan work successfully in a kitchen. I understand what you are saying about swapping the fridge and stove. However, I have to go with funkycamperâÂÂs line of thinking that a fridge is not beautiful enough to make a focal point of a room, so it make sense to us to leave the fridge in its current placement. I will say that after reading marcoloâÂÂs links we are now thinking about swapping the sink and the stove.

    Thanks, Magpier and funkycamper for piping in with your concerns re: lack of space between sink and stove/cooktop. A valid point indeed. Does adequate counter space on the island in any way make up for skimpy space on the outside countertop?

    After much heated discussion following the GW community suggestions, DH is downstairs now on sketch-up rejigging the layout. We will have to see if by swapping the stove and the sink we can somehow create more space in that area. We had talked about having the sink on the island, maybe we will need to revisit the idea. I donâÂÂt love the idea of sitting at the bar on the island looking down at the pile of dirty food prep equipment. Thoughts anyone??

    Additionally, we are thinking of moving the dishwasher to the island. At present the dishes, etc would be placed in cupboards on the working side of the island, but if we move the dishwasher there, the dishes, would go into the lower cabinets on the outside wall. Hmmm, not sure how well that would work.

    Thanks, marcolo for your patience, wit and wisdom. As I read through and consider the ice-water-stone-fire recipe and consider my kitchen I see there are alterations to consider. By swapping the range and sink I think we can rectify some of the problems. As you explain your recipe so clearly on the link provided, you state that the ice-water-stone-stove neednâÂÂt follow a straight line. As I consider my own layout, with the swapped range and sink, I then have ice and water in a line, plenty of stone available on the island and then back to the outside wall for the stove. I think this would offer better flow, but this has raised the concern that perhaps the 60â we currently have between the outside counter and island is too much. Do we need to shrink that distance to ~48â to create a more fluid workspace? Or are the extra steps acceptable? I am currently shuffling from side to side now without undue problem, so I vote for...

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    Prepping usually requires using a sink. If you are willing to install a prep sink on the inside counter, it will provide you with good prep space and help assure that you are following the ice-water-stone-fire layout guidelines. I'm sorry if I forgot to suggest that in my previous post. If you don't install a prep sink there, you will probably not use it as much as you think you will. A good prep area really needs a sink. You will also want a garbage container in that area, possibly under the sink, and you may also want a garbage disposal.

    If you put your main sink where the range is now shown on your plans, you might have adequate prep space between fridge and sink. However, limiting yourself to only one sink pretty much limits your kitchen to one cook. And limits the ability to have one person cleaning up while one is prepping.

    I would switch range and sink on the outer counter and still add the prep sink on the inside counter.

    Regarding people sitting there looking at dirty prep dishes: Who cares? First, if you have a dishwasher, you can have the door open and load it with your used prep gear as you finish with it so you shouldn't have a huge pile of dirty dishes there when done prepping anyway. If you get a good, deep clean-up sink on the outer wall, whatever doesn't go in the dishwasher should be easily hidden inside that sink. I tend to be a "clean as I go" type of cook so this is natural to me. I really hate dealing with a mound of dirty gear when I'm done.

    And, really, do people think good food arrives at the table without making a bit of a mess? I've never understood why a bit of dirty gear should be off-putting to anybody.

    Oh, if you don't desperately need all the storage in the inner counter, why don't you get a small apartment-sized dishwasher to put there next to your prep sink. Then you could have one right there for loading your prep gear immediately without having to cross the room. Easy-peasy!

    The suggested minimum for having two counters facing each other and to still allow two people to be working in the kitchen without butt-kissing all the time is 48". That's the minimum. I think 60" would be great.

    I would really encourage you to seriously considering having two sinks. Two dishwashers aren't necessary but it would sure be handy and make clean-up a snap. Sink/dishwasher on outer wall for dinner dishes and cookware. Smaller prep sink and dishwasher on inner counter for prepping and prepping gear. I would really envy you for that set-up.

    I just realized that the plan I'm working on for my kitchen is very similar to your own but flipped. However, my space is smaller so my counters aren't as long and I definitely don't have room for the second dishwasher. I'm now really envying your potential lay-out even more just thinking about it. In fact, I'm kinda drooling over it, lol.

  • dianeu
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    New photo following ice-water-stone-fire principles. Dishwasher has been moved to island. Thanks, funkycamper, for your suggestions. Will be considering same today :) Diane

  • HomeChef59
    9 years ago

    Make sure you get full use of that corner area, blind corner wall cabinet and under counter super Susan.

  • Buehl
    9 years ago

    Your layout has no measurements to work with - do you have a measured layout? Have you had a chance to read the FAQs Marcolo linked to? Having the information discussed in the Layout Help FAQ would be very helpful!

    Excerpt from the Layout Help FAQ:

    • The best place to start is to draw up your kitchen (to scale, if possible) either without cabinets & appliances if you do not know where to start or with your proposed new layout if you have something to start with. Regardless, measure and label everything...walls, ceiling height, widths of doors/doorways & windows, distances between windows, walls, doors/doorways, etc.

    Mark all doors/doorways & windows (with dimensions) and label them as to where they lead. If they are actual doors, mark how they swing.
    It also would be helpful to see the connecting rooms, even entire first floor layouts (or whatever floor your kitchen is on), so we see how they interact with the kitchen and/or extend the kitchen feel and flow.
    Make note of traffic flows in and out of the kitchen
    . . .
    Where are you flexible?

    • Can windows or doorways change size?

    • Can they be moved or eliminated?

    • Can windows be raised/lowered?

    • Can any walls come down?

    • Does the sink have to be centered under a window?

    • Does it have to be under a window at all?

    Note: The more constraints you put on a space (e.g., sink centered under a window, not willing to move plumbing, electric, or gas lines), the fewer options there are. So, be sure any limitations/constraints you mention are true constraints. You could say you would like something to not be moved/changed or placed in a certain location, but if it is not a must or truly impossible, then mention it is a preference but that you would consider something different.

    BTW...do not assume something is "too expensive" to do...check around b/f assuming, you may be pleasantly surprised at how little it costs! (E.g., if you have a basement, moving water, etc. is generally relatively inexpensive.)

    See the full FAQ at the link below.

    Here is a link that might be useful: FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include?

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    I think that's better. Range and sink look like they might be a bit close together but I realize your wall might not be long enough for much wiggle room. Measurements would be helpful.

    These are just some questions I have with your layout that are things you might want to consider before finalizing your plan.

    * Is there a reason why you're not taking the cabinets closer to the door? Does doing that crowd the table or make transit in/out of the door too congested?

    * Does the sink really need to be centered under the window? Mine's not and it's never bothered me but I realize some people crave more symmetry.

    * If you are moving the DW to the island, will you have issues having to walk too far to put plates, cutlery, glasses away? I just really think that the sink window should be the clean-up sink with DW there so you can put those items away easily; and that a sink in the island should be for prep. Separating those activities will allow for more than one person to be working without congestion issues. Or at least make congestion issues be far more limited. So I would only suggest a DW in the island if you're having two DWs. And if you have two DWs, they could probably both be 18" instead of the standard 24". This would give you a total of 12" more storage space. Also, I think that if the window sink is clean-up with prep area in island, it matters a bit less that the range and window sink are a bit closer together because if two are working in the kitchen at the same time (one prep/cook; one clean-up), you will be working in your own zones vs. sharing the same space. Hope that makes sense.

    Your kitchen is going to be lovely. With just a few tweaks, I think it will also be very functional and a joy to work in.

  • cupofkindness
    9 years ago

    I urge you to move the stove to the island and install a prep sink there. Get a down draft vent if you don't want a hood over the island. It is a mistake to have the stove close to the sink when you have so much real estate elsewhere.

    Water is the most important ingredient in any kitchen. You will never regret having a prep sink/extra faucet, and you will love having the work area in the triangular fasion as will your family and guests.

    Put the dishwasher on the wall between the eating area and the sink. Much easier to clean up after a meal. Reconsider the choice not to hang cabinets or even dish shelves there. Choose function over cool factor.

  • neilstaite
    9 years ago

    If you have created a pull out pantry to the left of the new refrigerator layout - make sure you have enough clearance for the fridge door swing so that it doesn't collide with an open pantry (from experience).

  • Buehl
    9 years ago

    Are your aisle widths sufficient for traffic to flow b/w seated diners and the Living Room as well as b/w counters? Do you have an adequate seating overhang for eating (which means a raised surface at least 15" to 18" deep to provide room for plates, glasses, etc. without worrying about knocking them off the raised surface)?

    Other comments...

    1. The island really needs a prep sink b/c you don't have sufficient space b/w the cleanup sink and the range right now to make that your primary Prep Zone.

      In addition, b/c of your current sink/refrigerator layout, you will be doing quite a bit of zone-crossing and an island sink will help with that.

    DW in the island with cleanup sink on the perimeter...that setup is not very ergonomic. You will be twisting to go from the sink to the DW. The DW works much better next to the sink.
    Dish storage...with this layout, someone setting the table will be going right through your Prep and Cooking Zones - something that you should try to avoid. The Cooking Zone should be the most protected Work Zone in the kitchen, with the Prep Zone second. Between these two zones, at least 80% of the work done in the kitchen is done here. In the Cooking Zone, you are dealing with high heat - the range top for cooking and the oven for baking/roasting/broiling. You really don't want people darting in and out of that space and you don't want to be tripping over people while taking things off the range top or out of the oven.
    I do not recommend moving the range to the island. If you do, you may need a deeper island b/c you will need at least 24" from the back of the range to the edge of the seating overhang for the safety of your visitors sitting behind the range. In addition, be aware that downdrafts, even telescoping, are not very good at venting steam, grease, etc. The best are the ones with the vent that rises up through the middle of the cooking surface (b/w the left and right cooking coils/elements), but you cannot have one of those with a range.

    Downdrafts only work for pots/pans right next to the fan and for those pots/pans shorter than the top of the actual fan by at least 2 or 3 inches. If you have gas, you have the issue of the fan disrupting the flame when attempting to cook.

    Note that most downdrafts are designed for cooktops, not ranges. At one time Dacor made a range/downdraft combination, but I can tell you from personal experience that the fan was not very effective, it was loud, and it was particularly a nuisance if someone was sitting directly behind the range/downdraft.

    An overhead fan is much better and is especially needed when a cooktop/range is in an island or peninsula. Why? Because grease, steam, fumes, etc. are exposed to more and stronger wind currents, you don't have a back wall or cabinets in each side to corral the grease/steam/fumes/odors/etc. and direct them to the hood instead of spreading out away from the hood, and with seating the...

  • Hydragea
    9 years ago

    Re: Seeing dirty dishes if sink is in island.

    Well, they're still going to see the dirty dishes if the sink I on the perimeter. In fact, with the site angles being what they are, people seated at the bar will have a BETTER view of the dishes if the sink is on the perimeter.
    ...
    I just got a massive 30" wide sink with a sink grate. The hand washed dishes go on the right side of the sink. Because they rest on the sink grate, I can still use the tap while they dry. It's hugely convenient, and also keeps the dishes out of view. It's a great setup.

  • Buehl
    9 years ago

    The difference b/w dirty dishes on the island vs on the perimeter is that in the island they're "in the face" of people sitting at the island. On the perimeter, there's some distance b/w those sitting at the island and the dirty dishes on the perimeter.

    That said, the best way to "hide" dirty dishes is either in the DW or in a deep sink - regardless of where the sinks are!

    I'd rather have prep dishes in the island than all dirty dishes. With the prep dishes, it's easy enough to transfer them to the Cleanup Zone (and the cleanup/main sink) and do a quick swipe on the counter to do a quick clean (full cleaning can be done later).

  • Shelley Graham
    9 years ago

    Visually, I find the different heights on the island to be very choppy. I'd like to see a drawing with the surface all at one height. I think it would make your room look larger and more spacious.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    I just want to say that I agree with everything Buehl said. I think a DW in the island would only make sense if there is a sink there and if it's the secondary DW. That's why I suggested an apartment-sized one if one is put there. Also, I agree that a prep sink on the island is the best solution whether or not a DW goes next to it. Just wanted to clarify if my suggestions have caused some confusion.

  • dianeu
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Wow, you GW community really do deliver on the ideas! Thanks for all this assistance. We are definitely considering all the options and you have opened our eyes to many new configurations.

    To put the range on the island creates WAY more counter space on the outside counter. Hard to argue against the beauty of that. And I think I can live with a ventilation hood at the correct height over the island. Although the concerns raised by buehl about fumes, etc does have me concerned.
    Thanks, HomeChef59, for your query about the âÂÂdark cornerâ on the far side of the fridge. I see this area being for my mixer and perhaps the coffee station. DH works in the lighting industry, so will work hard to ensure the space is functionally well-lit.

    Thanks, buehl, for the reminder about measurements. If I can figure out how to post the .pdf I have, it will be included here with this post. Most everything from windows to doorways can be changed. Window height cannot go higher due to architecture on the outside of the house, but placement and width are flexible if it improves the design.

    funkycamper, as usual you have brought some thoughtful queries to the design. I donâÂÂt think we wish to extend the outside counter to be closer to the door as it will impede traffic from the kitchen to the deck, where we do some summer meals if weather is favourable. (We do live in a rainforest here ïÂÂ.) I also tend to feed the dog outside, so would be using that door at least twice per day.

    While the attached drawing does not show the sink centred under the window, my husband says it will be. He is a touch fussy on that note apparently.

    We are definitely back and forth on whether to leave the range on the island or put the dishwasher there. We will be taking a few steps to put some of the dishes away, but most will be within 1 step in either location.

    Thanks, cupofkindness, for your suggestion of putting the range and prep-sink on the island. I had not considered a prep sink before it was mentioned on this thread. I canâÂÂt think of anyone I know who has one, and I am in heated discussions with the hubby about the need for it. It is true that two bums in the kitchen can create friction, and that often occurs around the sink. My husbandâÂÂs point is whether it is worth giving up most of the storage beneath the sink for the occasional benefit. I suspect it will be, any other thoughts on this? I also like the idea of having open shelves for wine glasses or other clear objects at the door end of the outside counter.

    Thanks, GTAOntario, for your suggestion about care and attention to fridge opening and the end cupboard beside it. Instead of a pull out pantry, this area was designed to hold brooms, step stool and possibly the vacuum cleaner. So it will be a door, not a pull out pantry. How have others handled the storage of such utilitarian items?

    buehl, you make a number of very valid...

  • dianeu
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    It looks like I can only upload and post 1 image at a time, so here is the snip of the .pdf of the footprint with measurements. Cheers, Diane