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Plan review

Jessica Fuller
9 years ago

Hello,

I'm hoping y'all will help me with my kitchen plan. We purchased this house with the intention of renovating it and have never lived in it. We are adding an addition on the second floor and it is currently gutted. The house came with almost new appliances (27" double oven, dishwasher) that we are planning to reuse.

We have 2 small children (newborn and 3) and 2 dogs, and plan to stay in this house until our children are grown. We are allotting space in our mudroom for a command center and dog food bowls. Our mudroom is the main artery to get from the garage to the kitchen, as well as from the kitchen to the trash. I am really hoping to get this right and I'm not super confident with my KD; I have had to lead the way more than I hoped.

I am the primary cook in the house. Under ideal circumstances, I cook dinner every night. With the new little one, I tend to batch cook and reheat instead. I bake maybe 1x a week, mostly cookies at this point!

We have small-ish get-togethers where we host 2-4 other people for dinner, or neighbors/parents coming by to visit. I do regularly have a helper (husband, mother, nanny, toddler, dog, etc.) to share the kitchen with.

My husband is a coffee drinker; he likes the Aeropress that doesn't require power but you pour over the grinds with boiling water. I prefer tea.

I am struggling with what we will store where and want to make sure we aren't doing weird things with the kitchen or missing opportunities to make it more functional. Visual symmetry is very important to me, so we are working to maintain that but I want to make sure the kitchen is still very functional. I also don't know how our needs will change as our children get older.

Here are the specific elements that I'm not sure about, although I invite any and all comments or suggestions!

First, the microwave location. We are planning to purchase a new drawer microwave and put it in the island. However, it is far from the refrigerator.

Second, the upper cabinets. We don't have much space for upper cabinets because the kitchen is open to the family and breakfast rooms. In theory this is OK with me because I am short; they are always hard for me to reach. Considering open shelves around the cooktop/hood, will I regret this? (Side note, we are planning to have a band of high uppers to fill the gap around the top as the ceilings are quite high).

Third, the island prep sink. Where should it go in relation to the cooktop?

And the island in general. I am concerned about having enough room for us to not be tripping over each other as we are now in our current kitchen.

Also, we are planning to put stools on the outside edge of the long leg of the L. Is it too narrow now at 2'7" wide? (Previous versions of the plan had it wider).

I am including the existing first floor plan, most recent version of the whole first floor that I have from the architect, and the most current kitchen plan. We are already budgeting to move plumbing, venting and interior walls (including one load-bearing beam) so moving them elsewhere is an option.

I would love to hear your feedback and have fresh eyes on these plans! Thanks in advance!

Kitchen Plan:
{{gwi:2142304}}

New First Floor Plan:
{{gwi:2142305}}

Existing First Floor Plan:
{{gwi:2142306}}

Comments (38)

  • nancyjwb
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, that looks like a great house! I'm sure the experts will chime in with advice soon, but I have a few ideas.
    What about moving the cleanup sink and dw to the other leg of the L and having your microwave drawer and some snack and dish storage on the end by the breakfast room. That would be handy for the reheating you mentioned:)
    Something else that occurred to me is that it seems to be a small baking area and it is in a traffic area. I really love to bake and if I had the space you do, I would be planning a larger area for that!
    Just my 2 cents, I'm not an expert. (Just a mom to a 3 and 1 year old:)) enjoy the planning and the new baby days!

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would be tempted to play around with doing only 1 L along the bottom and right hand walls with 1 large island.

    Really think through preparing a few favorite meals and baking sessions in this space. It looks like preparing anything is going to be a marathon workout because of the sprawl and traipsing around the little island. I had my cleanup on the opposite side of my island like that once, and I did not find it user friendly for working solo in the kitchen. It was a lot of extra trips around the island to retrieve this or that from the cleanup zone.

  • Jessica Fuller
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @ Trebruchet {{gwi:2142307}}

    @nancyjwb Thank you for the insights! What do you think about switching the DO with the baking center? You're right, the baking center has gotten pretty small (it was a bit bigger in previous iterations of the plan). Switching the baking center and DO puts the DO far from the stove, but in all fairness I can't remember the last time I took something from the stove and put it in the oven. Mostly use the oven for one-offs and baking. We thought about tucking it into the doorway where it says COFFEE? now but I didn't like appliances opening up into the passthrough.

    Even though we are calling it the baking center, I was envisioning using it like a big appliance garage. Stand mixer and all its friends would live there together. Not sure where the blender and toaster oven will go--thoughts on this?

    If we move the baking center to the big section of the short wall (where the DO is now), do you think it should it be open with upper cabinets or closed to hide the appliances?

    Maybe the microwave and the trash should switch spots on the island? Looks like the DW will clear the microwave. Would it be weird to have the microwave next to the dishwasher (assuming it would fit)?

    {{gwi:2142308}}

    Now that I am looking at this I am wondering if the trash and DW should switch locations on the L island. My KD was emphatic that the DW should be on the right since we are right-handed, but we have it on the left now and it seems fine. Trash tucked into the corner is less convenient than trash closer to the action I think.

    @ laughable Thank you for the thoughts. I am having trouble envisioning the island you are describing. Would it have 2 sinks then? Do you have a picture or drawing you could point me towards to look at?

  • debrak2008
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There has been lots of discussion on the "handedness" regarding the DW. It seems that the majority of opinions is to put it where is makes sense in the overall layout. You will adjust to either side.

    Personally I need a sink in the same run as the range. I don't like having to turn or walk to get from the sink to the range as the area between the two is the major prep area for me.

  • crl_
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your kids are adorable! Sorry I'm not that great at layout so I won't weigh in there. Happy New Year!

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with eliminating the ''island L'' and just doing a perimeter L and a big island. Do a lowered marble baking area on the island, and the cleanup zone on the lower part of the perimeter L.

    Also, future proof your appliance selection by doing at least a 33'' oven cabinet. 30'' ovens have become standard, and you may find it difficult to replace your 27'' with anything of a good quality in the future as that size becomes more difficult to find.

  • bpath
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re: baking center. My mother, an outstanding cook and baker, designed her kitchen in 1970 and was very forward thinking. She included a baking center, similar in size and placement to yours, mbut it turned out the best place to mix etc was on the island, across from the sink, near the trash pull-out, room to spread out and have "helpers".

    The baking center became the cookie-jar home, and the not-oft-used kitchen implements.

    All this to say, use the centered baking center for the oven and coffee bar and implement or tool storage.Mom finds it so handy to take a pan from the oven and set it on the island right across from it, it's a fluid motion. Then use the perimeter spaces labeled oven and coffee for pantry or small appliances.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Awww, what sweeties! : )

    Here's a plan idea. I'm not sure how tied you are to having your cleanup face out. Some people are ok with it being on an inside wall since so much can go in the DW that cleaning up can be a quick task.

    This should give you a more efficient work space. The coffee is down near the fridge making it easy for someone to get a drink and add cream without interrupting your cooking zone. Dishes could go in drawers across from the sink and DW for easy unloading (and they are accessible for your little helpers so they can help set the table, too.) the MW is down by the fridge and dishes for quick snacks and reheats. The oven is protected from anyone walking through, so there is less chance of someone getting burned. You could add more island seating, but I'd prefer to do some cabinets along the outside of the island to make the most of the storage in it. Even with the cabs, you'd still have room for about 5 stools. You could also have storage under the island where the stools are for things you don't need as often. Your pantries look generous, so I don't know just how much storage you'd need in the island. With 1 island and no floating L, you'd have room for 48" aisleways, which is standard for a kitchen that will have more than one person working in it. Again, your helpers will grow and they'll want to be in there with you.

    Just some ideas. : )

  • nancyjwb
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I do think the baking center would work where your double ovens are marked now. I don't know how many small appliances you have to store but I would probably prefer to leave it base and upper only. Stand mixer could be left out for looks or stored in a mixer lift cabinet. Other small appliances could be stored in deep drawers there. You may also want baking pans and cookie sheets stored in the bases there so anything infrequently used may be better off in the pantry.My MIL has a tambour door closed baking center and it works well, but I think that look is a little out now. You could check out baking centers on houzz to get a feel for what you prefer.
    You could keep the blender there, it depends on what you most use it for. Ditto toaster oven. I don't use one of those, so I don't know. Ideally things are stored where they're most used.
    I think the ovens would be better on the inside corner where the coffee is on your plan than in the spot marked baking. There will be less traffic there to bump into them.
    yes I think the microwave could be on the upper end of the island. Closer to the frig is better. There may be a lot happening there at one time though. If you're prepping on the island and someone wants to use the microwave at the same time will there be enough room?
    Adorable little boys you have there! we have two girls:)

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lovely kids, and a great house.

    Since your garage entry is quite far from the kitchen I'd recommend something like below b/w the garage and the pantry.

    [{{gwi:2142309}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/e-builders-homes-parade-of-homes-2013-lakeshore-traditional-salt-lake-city-phvw-vp~4546526)

    [Traditional Spaces[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-home-design-ideas-phbr1-bp~s_2107) by Lehi Home Builders E Builders Homes

    I agree with others that a big island and cabs on the long wall and the pantry wall will be better.

    I've got 2 alternative layouts. Both have a single entry to pantry and MW is in the island across the fridge.

    {{gwi:2142310}}

    Cleanup sink, DW and trash are across the DO counter. You have room for a rectangular island instead of an L one, but I think it will be too deep to wipe easily.

    The 2nd one has the cleanup sink facing a wall. You probably won't like this, but I think with small kids and dogs around you, it'd be a good idea to have a sink on the cooktop counter.

    {{gwi:2142311}}

    {{gwi:2142312}}

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    i can understand wanting a door for the pantry and another for the butler's pantry but I really think eliminating one of those doors will give you a lot better flow. If you check here on GW and on Houzz for pantries, people design some beautiful pantries. If some of the shelves have doors inside the pantry, for those things that you just can't store and have look nice, I think you could have a pantry flow into a butler's pantry, eliminating that second door. Something to consider anyway.

    I like the plans sena01 came up with a lot and are better use of space. However, on the last plan, I would move the cooktop a bit to the left to get it farther away from the clean-up area.

    And that Cousin It Door from garage to pantry is absolutely incredible. I almost wish I had a pantry backed up to my garage just so I could have something like that.

  • Fori
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Pantry-garage door is pretty cool. I wonder if it's to code. :P

  • HomeChef59
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There is no reason why the door wouldn't meet code.

    If it's metal, it's fireproof. It's just short. What's wrong with short? I'm only 5'3" and I'm built to code:)

    It looks like the door has a gasket around it along with a lock and deadbolt.

    What a great idea and good execution.

  • practigal
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I liked your first drawing although I would add a sink and trash on the island as it looks like the island will be your main prep area. I didn't like the original plan as that countertop made for a very strange corner and you don't need strange.

  • Jessica Fuller
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @debrak2008 Thanks. Good to know that it’s not a hard and fast rule about the “handedness;” we will put the DW where it makes the most sense! I haven’t had my sink and range on the same run for the past 2 kitchens I’ve been in and haven’t missed; what about that configuration do you find advantageous?

    @crl Thank you! Happy New Year to you too!

    @live_wire-oak Thanks for the heads up on the oven cabinet, I had no idea!

    @bpathome Thanks for the insight on the baking center. The more I think about it the more I am realizing that I really just want a tidy appliance storage setup of some sort, and I really don’t bake enough to justify a devoted space. Sounds like even if I did the solution we had wouldn’t cut it! I put together another drawing based on everyone’s comments and I’d be curious to know what you (and others) think about the oven/countertop situation now. The oven would open towards the range countertop, which would have 1’7” of countertop. 3’ between the oven wall and the side of the cooktop run, doesn’t leave much space so I’d be going sideways? Not sure.

    @laughable I like what you did there. I did want the cleanup to face out, but the more I thought about it the less important I think it is compared to having a functional space. I fiddled with your basic concept a little bit because I would really like to have symmetry on the long wall and thought having landing space on either side of the island sink would be good. I guestimeasured 4’ pathways, is that wide enough?

    I’m imagining something like this pic (but with a fridge/freezer on either end) which would let me open up the span to the door. The range wall would be open like the pic.

    {{gwi:2142313}}

    {{gwi:2142314}}


    @nancyjwb Good thoughts, I appreciate your insights! What do you think about today’s plan? (particularly oven location). I’m thinking I could put some cabinets that go all the way to the countertop with the new long run and put small appliances in there. The ones that we use regularly are the toaster oven, blender and coffee grinder. How old are your girls?

    @sena01 and funkycamper My KD suggested we might want to put a full-size door from the garage to the pantry, but we didn’t want to lose the space. The mini-door is a great compromise! I do love having the two doorways but am chewing on the idea of how we might make it one big room back there. I would love to have a pretty pantry that could be more like a presentable room. We were planning on a moderate finish-out in there so I will have to see how far we have blown our budget before I go down that rabbit hole. What dimension should I shoot for to make sure the island is wipeable? I’m short but DH is tall so maybe he will have island-wiping duty. In my inspiration image they had an object in the middle of the island, perhaps that is a way to deal with it and hope the kids don’t splash that far!

    @fori and HomeChef59 I was thinking it is kind of like a doggie door. I don’t know if I could still fit but when I was a teenager that was my way to sneak into my mother’s house.

    @practigal Which corner did you find strange? The one in the existing plan? Let me know what you think of my new one!

    I really appreciate everyone’s input and comments! Y’all are amazing. Please keep the thoughts coming.

  • practigal
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was referring to the round corner in the existing plan. I love the new plan. It looks great!

  • bmorepanic
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is just for ideas. Range or cooktop could go on either side of the aisle. island can be reversed top for bottom.

    I personally tend to place things where I get to interact as much as possible with others while doing prep/cooking. Again just personally, I don't tend to spend that much time doing cleanup so it could be in the butler's for all I'd care.

  • debrak2008
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In answer to your question, I agree with Marcolo's "Ice, water, stone, fire". So it goes, fridge, sink, counter, range. The counter between the sink and range gets a workout. In our old kitchen, I had to turn and walk a few steps to get from the sink to the range. In doing so, I would run into people, animals, drop things, etc. I find it much easier and less stressful with uninterrupted counter between the sink and range.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I tend to be very symmetry driven as well, so I understand your desire for things to look "right" in terms of balance. This is one area where I try to let function pull more weight than form, though. For example, keeping little ones safe from getting burned while you are pulling hot stuff out of the oven. I'd hate for a piping hot lasagna to get all over a little one that took a corner too fast at just the wrong moment.

    General consensus on island prep sinks here is to offset them so that you get a large work area to one side. When they are centered, they look "pretty", but they kill the usefulness of the counters next to them. I had a chance to do a dry run in our last kitchen since it was a bit of time between countertop install and the sink install. I used tape and taped off the sink in the center of my 7' island. It drove me crazy! The thing was always in my way. After a few days of trying to work around it, I ripped up the tape and moved the "sink" off to one side. Peace returned to my island. : )

    In that same kitchen, we ran 4 stools in a row across a slightly curved island. I found I didn't like having four stools all in a row very much. It wasn't conversational. I would often pull a stool around the corner so I could sit and talk with DH when we sat at the counter. So, what I'm trying to say is, consider putting a few stools on 2 sides of the island rather than putting them all in a row.

    Hope this helps. : )

    Here is a link that might be useful: Here's my reveal (so you can learn from my mistakes) ; )

  • nancyjwb
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like your new plan. It simplifies things a lot. In regards to the oven stack, why not have it facing the breakfast room instead of opening into the passageway. It might look better that way too.
    What about moving the freezer to the pantry and having your appliance garage in that spot, it could still be symmetrical. Just an idea.
    You may want to move your prep sink to the island side scross from the cleanup sink so you can have the whole area across from the range for chopping, mixing etc. that way you can just pivot to cook. Also, if you had the trash pullout beside the prep sink on the long side of the island, you could use it for both prep and cleanup and you would only need one that way. Just a few ideas, I think it's looking good!
    My girls are 3 and 1. Never a dull moment. I applaud you for planning this while also caring for a newborn!

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your last layout will probably look very attractive, but I doubt it will be very functional, since fridge is very far from the range and the prep sink.

    You may consider moving the fridge+ MW closer to prep and cooking, however this may result in increased traffic in your prep/cooking area from the FR to the fridge.

    Also, I'd swap the trash and DW, so DW won't be b/w the main sink and the range in case there are helpers in the kitchen.

  • Jessica Fuller
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here’s a twist. I went to the house today and that reminded me about THE BEAM. There is a steel beam that we were planning on moving out of the walkway with the double island configuration, but I’m wondering now if we go with the single island if we can leave it? That would save me about $5k. Here’s what it would look like with the beam covered by a wall (and some other tweaks):

    {{gwi:2142315}}

    I actually like this a bit better because it anchors the DO in that corner and the counter can flow from the kitchen to the butler’s pantry. Do y'all think this is weird?

    @practigal Thanks! Yeah, the original kitchen was pretty weird. The house had a lot of curves that we are taking out to make it cleaner and more true to the style.

    @bmorepainc Thank you for the drawing! I’m going to have to digest the concepts you drew a bit. We have an island cooktop now and I agree that it is more social. The big problem that I have with my current kitchen is a lack of focal point which I was going to gain from the hood, but I see in your drawing that there could still be a focal point without a hood with a pretty batterie de cuisine display!

    @dbrak2008 Thanks for explaining “ice, water, stone fire.” I saw the reference in passing but didn’t understand what it meant. I have noticed that my dog likes to park right at the foot of the cooktop. DH agrees with you, going to have to think about that some more.

    @laughable good point about the hot food coming out of the oven. That’s an argument for the DO to go to the back corner. I have noticed that the landing zone by my current prep sink is the junk collection corner perhaps because it is too small to be particularly useful. I will have to try taping off the spaces to try it out once we nail down a plan. What do you think about the prep sink on the long side of the island? I think it will be 4-5 feet of counter on either side that way. Thanks for explaining the chair configuration, that makes a lot of sense. Your kitchen is so charming, thanks for sharing! I love the floors.

    @nancyjwb I was thinking to turn the DO because I didn’t want it opening into the aisle, but either way it will hit there. If I leave the beam the DO will have to face into the kitchen, what do you think about it with the counter run next to it? Going to have to tinker with the prep sink some more. I like having super convenient trash cans, really helps everyone do their part. DS2 is a nice easy baby and the timing is what it is, just hoping to get this project done sooner rather than later!

    @sena01 Do you think moving the prep sink as nancyjwb suggested would help? Need to do some more tinkering. Have you seen any pretty pictures similar to the layouts you drew earlier? With the new wall having a single passage from the kitchen to the pantry/butler’s pantry might make more sense so I want to explore that a bit more.

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, I'm no expert, but I think the distance b/w range and fridge can be a problem in this layout. You do have fridge-sink-range in the preferred order, but your kitchen is too big for this arrangement to function smoothly. When you're cooking, if you need to grab something from the fridge quickly, you need to go 15-16' to get it and another 15-16' to get back to the range. If someone is loading/unloading the DW at the same time you're trying to rush to the fridge, this going back and forth may become more annoying imo.

    Since the kitchen is big and you have helpers, it would be a good idea to have clean up and cooking/prep separate, keep prep/cooking and fridge close to each other and try to avoid traffic through this area . There may be frequent trips to fridge/micro/snacks by other family members (from FR?) and you may need the fridge close to your eating area (DR or breakfast nook/island??), so location of zones/appliances should be planned accordingly.

    As to pictures similar to the previously drawn layouts, I believe islands with 2 sinks are not very common, but here's a kitchen with an L island with 2 sinks (and with lots of ovens!).

    [{{gwi:2142316}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/kitchen-contemporary-kitchen-dc-metro-phvw-vp~1308807)

    [Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Burke Design-Build Firms KohlMark Architects and Builders

    For the other, I trust you can find quite a number of examples in Houzz or similar sites. Here's beaglesdoitbetter's kitchen for an example of cleanup in the short leg of L and cooking across the long side of the island. I think your kitchen sizes and pantry/DR locations are similar, but I don't know beagles family size/composition or her priorities/other arrangements in her house.

    Just an other idea. Do you think you can do something like this next to the beam, so you won't have to lenghten the wall b/w the kitchen and the FR?

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/breezy-brentwood-traditional-kitchen-los-angeles-phvw-vp~2026918)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Calabasas Interior Designers & Decorators Jill Wolff Interior Design

    {{gwi:2142317}}

    {{gwi:2142318}}

  • Jessica Fuller
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sena01 thank you again for your helpfulness! I like the idea of an open hutch like you pictured and I think it would work. I fiddled with moving the butlers pantry to the garage wall and DH was concerned that it doesn't work well for the dining room flow. I am just now remembering a house we looked at that had a similar butler's pantry configuration and I thought it was charming. Going to have to think more about that and draw it out again.

    If we did two fridge/freezers like beagle's kitchen do you think that would alleviate at least some of the flow issues? I'm thinking I could keep cooking staples like eggs, butter and bacon fat in the one closer to the pantry and prepared foods/snacks/drinks in the perimeter fridge.

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If we did two fridge/freezers like beagle's kitchen do you think that would alleviate at least some of the flow issues? I'm thinking I could keep cooking staples like eggs, butter and bacon fat in the one closer to the pantry and prepared foods/snacks/drinks in the perimeter fridge.

    I think that's a good idea. I have 2 fridge/freezers and it's quite easy to adapt a habit of keeping certain things in one and the others in the 2nd appliance.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In your proposed floorplan, the main staircase is no longer curved the way it is in the existing floor plan.

    Are you changing the staircase?

    If you are not and it's still curved, as you consider your layout, keep in mind that your house's architecture has a repeating curve motif. It's in the stairs, in the two big rounded window walls, and there is a big curve in the existing kitchen design.

    Those curves certainly make the house unique and interesting, so it would be a shame and maybe a bit jarring to have a new kitchen put in that is all-square.

    Having a big curve on the edge of the island, an arched range hood, bowed cabinets, etc. would all be things to consider. Look for pictures of kitchens with interesting curves and think how you could incorporate any of those elements into the layout that is forming here.

    Usually you figure out the most functional layout and then pick your finishes, but because an added curve might change the shape of the cabinets or island, you might want to start thinking about that design element now simultaneously with the layout.

  • Jessica Fuller
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @sena01 my architect really liked your most recent plan. She liked the concept of the glass cabinet but because of the stair layout it may be too busy for our application. I tweaked it a little tonight to flip flop the range and sink, putting the oven on the end of the L. This gives me a pretty isolated cooking corner separate from the cleanup and snacking end.
    {{gwi:2142319}}
    I also started looking at fridge/freezers instead of columns, which do you have and do you like them?

    @Jillius we are taking out all of the curves. The house will have clean lines and a more timeless feel, the curves as they were executed looked dated. That being said, I was thinking that a rounded island edge might suit this layout because it wants to be wider but can't due to the beam. Do you think a curved edge will go with a more classic tone?

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The range seems a lot more protected in your last layout. Now that the island is narrower because of the beam, ı'm guessing you'll use the main sink for prep also, plus there is also another sink in the BP.

    I don't live in US, so no idea as to what brand fridge/freezer to get. You can visit the appliance forum perhaps. One thing I can add though, (hoping that you'll never neeed it), make sure that the brand you get has good Support&Service in your area.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wondering if you'd benefit from moving the fridge down to where the freezer is and putting the freezer in the pantry to save a lot of steps and crossover when prepping. Then, you could do a dish hutch that touches the counter where the fridge was. This would give you the symmetry of two "talls" at each end of the sink run without them being an exact match. If you look up dish hutches on houzz you'll find good examples (I'm on the tablet and haven't figured out how to link pics from it yet.)

    Have you tried putting your baking pans in the 27" ovens to make sure they are ok for your needs? I'd hate to see you plan around them and later discover they might be too small (and, they might be fine!)

    I would want a prep sink on the cook top end island in your latest sketch. (Looking good!) : )

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cute kids, nice house!

    Here are my 2 ideas for you:

    Plan A

    {{gwi:2142320}}

    I kept the cook top wall MOL as you had it, however I moved the freezer down to give you more room around the cook top and to remove the boxed in spot you had marked for coffee. I moved it to the top, closer to a water source and to the MW (I'm assuming hubby heats water in MW, not on cook top). It also puts coffee closer to the breakfast table, which I'm sure he'll appreciate.

    I eliminated the outer L and went with 2 large islands instead, one dedicated to the clean-up sink, one dedicated to prep work.

    The prep sink can be centered on the cook top, satisfying your desire for symmetry, but the reason I put it where I did was to give you a water source close to the dedicated baking center. I moved the MW to the top end of the prep island so that it's close to the fridge. Moving the trash pull-out to the bottom end of the island makes it more accessible to the baking center.

    The prep island is 36" deep. I added 9" deep cabs along the backside of the island. Use them for kid bowls, plates, cups - easy for them to get to - and glassware (will want kid locks until they're older, hopefully they aren't as mischievous as my neighbor's 4 yr old twins who were never deterred by kid locks).

    The top end of the prep island and the outer edge of the clean-up island would work well for buffet service.

    I added 18" deep seating overhang to the outer island. I couldn't tell if you wanted seating or not.

    I created a larger baking center by shifting the butler's pantry doorway to the left. I realize this will affect the change in levels going from kitchen to DR, which is why I came up with Plan B (to follow).

    The clean-up sink is centered on the island, which is bounded on both ends by posts to support the steel beam you mentioned above. Make it a design element like this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/hwc-folly-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco-phvw-vp~5155586)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Charleston Photographers Matthew Bolt Graphic Design

    Plan B is only slightly different than Plan A.

    {{gwi:2142321}}

    I had already been thinking about combining access to the butler's pantry with the food pantry before I saw your plan. Eliminating a door on that wall is a plus.

    I gave that extra space to the baking center, book-ending it at one end by the wall ovens and at the other end by a cabinet that will house your stand mixer and other baking tools. I base its design on a baking center I saw at a home in the Street of Dreams tour last August. The baking center cabinet was hinged on the far right and on the far left against the wall so that the cab opened up completely to the counter area. Spices were stored on the doors like this:

    [{{gwi:2142322}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/quincy-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-boston-phvw-vp~74759)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Quincy Kitchen & Bath Designers Kristen Schraven

    It was really a slick idea and I wish I had a photo to show you but unfortunately, I don't. Anyhoo, it provides a place to hide your stand mixer while providing the balance and symmetry you desire.

    I'm glad LWO spoke up about oven sizes. We currently have a 27" oven that died more than a year ago. It's too old to repair and because the cab is only 29" wide, we couldn't replace it with anything larger than a 27". So we opted to wait until we remodeled so that we could get a 30" oven.

    New 27" ovens have roomier interiors than they used to have (I have a pan that I've never used since moving into this house more than 20 years ago) but as LWO wrote, 30" ovens are the norm so best to plan for larger ovens down the road.

  • Jessica Fuller
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I’m back to a variation on the earlier plan because DH was really against flipping the dining room entryway.

    I have 2’ to play with between the dining room and the kitchen. In my drawing I added 1’ to the pantry and 1’ to the kitchen, but this could be allocated back to the dining room (making the dining room 17’), or otherwise.

    I'm thinking maybe put the toaster oven over by the fridge across from the microwave in a cabinet that goes down to the counter that could flank both fridges (is there a name for a cabinet that goes to the counter?). The other one (by the pantry) could be the baking one and house the mixer.

    {{gwi:2142323}}

    @laughable what do you think about this for the freezer/fridge situation? I put a pair of smaller fridges in the kitchen on either end like the pair of fridge/freezers, and put a freezer in the pantry. Kept the access to the pantry on both ends so we can get to the freezer easily. This gives me much more freezer capacity and net cost is lower. I will have to take a big pan over to see how it fits in the DO! I changed the cabinet to fit a 30” for the future if needed.

    @sena01 good point about getting something reliable and serviceable! I will check out the appliance forum. Thanks!

    @lisa_a thank you so much for the drawings! The way the post lands it’s on the inside line (we are effectively moving the kitchen wall out 2’ or so and it was in the old wall). Unfortunately it looked really weird when my architect tried to incorporate it into an island post. DH uses an electric kettle to make his coffee now, but I’m hoping with an induction cooktop we can put a pretty kettle on that instead and he might use that. He said not to plan around his coffee though. I do need to put the breakables out of the reach of little ones, my 3-yr old is very hard to deter! I will have to put some more thought into the upper cabinets and lay out where all these goodies will go. I like the in-door spice rack idea!

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think you're letting your love of symmetry get in the way of good kitchen function. You have a very large kitchen. You're planning on very generous cold food and pantry storage. And a 30" cook top? And no dedicated clean-up and prep areas? I think you should go up to a 36" cook top (only in small kitchens are 30" cook tops the norm) and plan for clean-up and prep zones.

    In your latest plan, it's a loooong walk from top fridge to cook top plus you'll have to remember which fridge you stored the butter in, the meat in, the veggies, etc. And don't expect family to put things back in the right fridge. I can't even get my family to put things back on the right shelf so that I can find them next time. =)

    You'll also have to do a lot of walking to get items from the 2 fridges and freezer for meal prep.

    Speaking of meal prep, where do you see yourself prepping for meals? Next to the sink? On the island? Next to the cook top?

    I have very little counter on each side of my island cook top: it is not ideal, to say the least. In fact, the lack of adequate prep space next to my cook top is the driving force behind my remodel. Maybe this won't drive you batty as it does me but really think about where you'll prep and how much room you'll want/need to do that task.

    I have an idea but I don't have time to draw it up. In the meantime, put aside your desire for symmetry and imagine yourself making a meal or baking cookies. Mentally walk through the steps and then lay out a plan that makes the work path the most efficient. Then figure out how to add symmetry to it. I think you'll be happier with the results.

  • debrak2008
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree completely with lisa_a. Don't take this personally but if I bought a house with your latest kitchen layout I offer less as I would have to gut the kitchen.

    Get a good functional layout, then make it look good.

  • Jessica Fuller
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @lisa_a Thank you so much for making me think this through! The cooktop is 36”; the largest I have seen for an induction cooktop. I had a big gas range before and I really didn’t like it so I don’t want to go that route again!

    I don’t think there will be a problem keeping the two fridges organized, but I hear what you are saying about keeping things where they belong in the pantry! I have the same problem. However, with the fridges I think it is pretty straight forward--if you have to cook it to eat it, it goes in the prep fridge. If you could eat it as is (or microwaved) then it goes in the snack fridge. The only crossovers I can think of are dairy products like butter, milk, some cheeses, perhaps yogurt? I don’t cook with yogurt that much! Maybe applesauce? Condiments? The list is pretty short so I think we can manage (or just have a few extra sticks of butter--not like it won’t get used!)

    I made a few more options and drew where I think the zones would be in each. However, I am realizing that the more important relationship to me is the proximity of the dishes/glasses to the sink and the snack fridge. Really we use the dishes and glasses multiple times every day, do the dishes every day and that is the biggest problem I have with my current kitchen. The glasses are in the middle of nowhere because there is no cabinet by the fridge and the upper by the dishwasher (only one side) is too small to hold everything (I also don’t have dish drawers now so a lot of space is monopolized by my dishes).

    In said poorly laid out kitchen, we tend to plop down in front of the fridge to prep (not at the prep sink/counter). In front of the fridge happens to be the island with a cooktop, so I don’t know if I am picking that spot because of the cooktop or the fridge proximity, or just because it is central. There is no countertop adjacent to the fridge. The short side of the island (across from the fridge) is 50”; I have 22” on either side of the cooktop. In the new kitchen, if the cooktop is on it’s own peninsula, I would have 18” on either side, so a little less. I am concerned about that because I’m not sure how it would feel. How much counter do you have on either side of your cooktop?

    I have never had an “efficient” kitchen so I don’t have much to compare to! Y’all have been so helpful though in making me really think this through!

    Friday 1: This is basically what I posted before with an extra sink. Sinks could move around a little bit. Optimized for snacks on the outside, tightest prep area, while still keeping visual appeal.

    {{gwi:2142324}}

    {{gwi:2142325}}

    Friday 2: Cooktop on the back wall, main sink on the island (similar to lisa_a’s drawing above but with a single island instead of two). Congested around the snack fridge, but still keeping good access from the snack fridge, dishwasher and dish storage. Good counter space around the cooktop. Boring short wall, unused butler’s pantry wall that is too far to be good for prep.

    {{gwi:2142326}}

    {{gwi:2142327}}

    Friday 3: Snack zone moved to butler’s pantry wall. Similar to sena01’s plan above. Clean up zone separate from cooking zone. Cooking sprawl--prep fridge and freezer very far apart. Flip prep fridge and oven? Clean-up sink wall looks ok but not great, cooktop wall sort of symmetrical but not great. Flip oven and freezer (30” fully integrated rather than 32” built-in look--more expensive, less capacity). Oven in pantry?

    {{gwi:2142328}}

    {{gwi:2142329}}

    @debrak2008 do you have any suggestions on what’s still not working with these new plans? I made up a new blank with some dimensions I got from my architect; I would like to stick within these general confines if possible.

    {{gwi:2142330}}

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're welcome! You know what they say: two heads are better than one. So imagine how much better it is to have all the GW heads helping you think this through. :)

    I have 16" on either side of my cook top and I detest it. It's just enough room for a small cutting board. I find myself stacking items above the cutting board, which means I have to stretch over whatever I am prepping to reach things. I can't tell you how many times I've knocked things to the floor when I reach over the cutting board (5 second rule!). I often end up moving around the side of the island or prepping in other areas of my kitchen, always in small sections of counter. It's very inefficient. My remodel will move my cook top to the perimeter (better venting) with 42" of counter between cook top and sink (I only have room for one sink in my kitchen). My island, all 58" of it, will be completely empty, free for baking projects or snack prep or buffet service. I. Can. Not. Wait! :)

    Back to your kitchen.

    Here's the idea I had earlier today. These 2 plans are possible because I closed off the pantry door and moved pantry access to the butler's pantry.

    {{gwi:2142331}}

    I moved the freezer out of the pantry and moved the prep fridge and ovens next to it. Putting your tall things together in a hidden area will make your kitchen feel very open.

    Eliminating the pantry access means that there's room for 30" of counter on each side of the 36" cook top. Actually, the left side has 42" with the 36" Super Susan in the corner. I chose to center the cook top between two 30" drawer bases. Another option is to center the cook top and hood on the upper cabinets, which would move the cook top and hood 12" to the left.

    The counter to the right of the cook top and the island will serve as landing zones for the ovens, prep fridge and freezer. That's why I eliminated the island seat at the very end of the island. At 123.5" long, you'll still have room for 4 seats along the long side. You could even add a 5th seat - tight but doable for parties, etc - but that will depend on how you support that long stretch of counter. A cab leg will eat up (people) leg room.

    I added a prep sink to the island. You can prep on the island or prep on either side of the cook top. If you want more room to spread out for baking, you could use the long run of counter between clean-up sink and cook top.

    The clean-up sink is centered between snack fridge and 36" Super Susan (okay, one side is .5" wider than the other but the eye will never notice that). Hubby's coffee zone is next to the snack fridge.

    Plan E is a slight variation of the above.

    {{gwi:2142332}}

    I moved the prep sink to the perimeter. You have to walk past the cook top to go from prep fridge/freezer to prep sink, which is a violation of Marcolo's ice-water-stone-fire rule but it does give you a longer stretch of counter to work between water and fire so IMO, it's worth considering.

    The end of the island across from the cook top can be your baking center. Are you familiar with the lift mechanisms for stand mixers? It's this

    [{{gwi:2142333}}[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/san-roque-modern-transitional-kitchen-santa-barbara-phvw-vp~15385970)

    [Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Santa Barbara Interior Designers & Decorators Jessica Risko Smith Interior Design

    The clean-up sink is moved to the island, centered on the island. Snack zone has moved to the perimeter next to the snack fridge.

    I'll have to review your latest plans later. Too tired to give you good feedback right now.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I really was tired last night. Forget what I wrote about 5 seats at the island. Since I nixed the seat at the cook top end, you really only have enough room for 4 seats, 3 comfortably if you have an island leg or other overhang support at the right end (24" per person is recommended minimum width).

    If you have at least 60" between island and kitchen table, you could add a seat at the end of the island or you could lengthen the island enough to fit 4 seats comfortably on the long side.

    Another option is to forgo the 4th seat and save the end of the island for cabs to hold kids' craft supplies, etc, so they can color while you cook and bake. I kept bins of crayons, coloring books, Play-doh, and such in the cabs next to my kitchen table. Loved that this storage saved me time and steps at dinner time.

  • Nathan Lansford
    9 years ago

    Would you mind posting pictures of your home, particularly the rear view.