Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
cardinegreen

Island? Peninsula? ...or nothing?

cardinegreen
9 years ago

I am starting to have nightmares about our kitchen reno. I am a designer by trade, but cannot for the life of me come up with a design solution for my own home! Help!

We live in a 1920's colonial. The first floor has a generous sized Living room, Dining room, & Sunroom. But the kitchen in comparison is quite small, 10'-5"x17'-1". We have spent a lot of time debating what to do to update the 1960's kitchen. We played with the idea of putting on an addition, but just could not justify the cost. We thought about opening up the kitchen to the large adjacent dining room, but I could not stomach the loss of the "formal" dining room in our historic home. We finally decided we were just going to work within the existing kitchen footprint and focus on making a well-designed, compact, efficient, well-appointed space.

Well. This has proven to be difficult. The 10'-5" width of the room is SO TIGHT. We have been headed in the direction of the attached 2 images. Both with a "L" shaped kitchen, one with an island, one with a peninsula. I say the island option is way too tight. My husband says the peninsula option is "weird". We would really like to incorporate a seating area somehow, but I just can't find a good solution. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Comments (22)

  • nels1678
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ah, the joys of small old kitchens! I'll be honest, you are both right. I don't think you have the space for the island, and the peninsula does look odd. What's worse is that in both configurations you are blocking the kitchen triangle. I don't think I'd do either as is. Instead I think I would stick with a small/mobile butcher block table that you could have placed up against the wall that borders with the dining room. If you want to pull it out you can, but I suspect that you almost always will want it out of the way given how your triangle is setup.

    The really hard thing about this room imho is the 3 doors. If you could remove even 1 of them or combine the mudroom/foyer into 1 door you could have a whole 2nd row of countertop or cabinets along the bottom wall.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    At 10.5 feet wide, if each counter is the standard 25", that leaves only 6'4" left. With the island needing two aisles, that leaves only 3'2" per aisle. That's way too tight. And, really, you need more than that if you want anybody to be able to walk behind anyone seated at the island.

    The NKBA recommends the following clearances behind someone seated: 32" to just be able to push the chair back and have space to get off/on chair comfortably; 36" for someone to slide past behind the seated person if the sitter is pulled up rather tight to the table edge; 44" for someone to walk behind; and 60" for wheelchair.

    Clearance for your working counters between wall or other counter should 42" for single-cook situations and 48" for multi-cook situations (or if the kitchen is used as a thoroughfare).

    Seating width is recommended to be at least 24" but most people consider 30" better for adults. So, in our peninsula example, if you have the bare minimum of 48" for two to sit and then your 25" deep counters, that leaves 51" (if my math is right) for walking around the peninsula. So that leaves you adequate clearance with tight seating. But I would sure hate to be the person sitting next to the wall with only 24" of clearance. If you allow the better recommendation of 30" per person, this leaves you only 40" in your aisle. Which would make your aisle clearance very tight.

    All these are really minimum clearances.

    What makes your floorplan with narrow aisles worse is that you have your mudroom and foyer there so it looks like the kitchen is a bit of a thoroughfare. And traffic would come to a halt if anyone needed to open the oven or dishwasher. I see a lot of frustration with congestion in your plans. I have a feeling I'm not telling you anything you don't already realize. Sorry.

    I think if you didn't have three doorways in that small space, it would make it easier to come up with a good plan. I'm sorry I don't have any answers for you and am only pointing out problems. Unless you can close one of those doorways off, I'm having trouble visualizing a solution. But there are people here far more talented than I am who can probably help you out.

    Is it possible for you to steal any space from the mudroom or foyer? Could you move the wall and make your dining room smaller/kitchen bigger or would that impact space for dining? What's behind the wall to the left? Is that also dining room or a different room some space can be stolen from?

    I realize it might make bringing groceries into the kitchen mean you're walking some extra steps but could your mudroom entry into the foyer and then you could go into the kitchen from there?

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not room for the island. At all. Not enough clearance around it for people.

    Not sure if this will work, and I'm normally one of the first to caution against a range in front of a window. Done right, it can work. Done right.

    This reconfigures the space in a way that still gives you a mudroom but also gives you a much more workable kitchen. Workable by several people at once.

    For the passthrough, yes, it's a connection between the kitchen and DR, but it can be closed off. The counter can also be used to serve a buffet on, or to serve through for more formal dining. And it's handy to help bus the DR mess back to the kitchen out of sight while dessert is being served, etc. I was inspired by the old Mary Tyler Moore kitchen that had Mary working on messy meals with the shutters closed, but also had people hanging out with her when the shutters were opened.

    (Although now that I find pics online, it seems that the passthrough wasn't like I remembered! It was a stained glass window that went up and down.)
    {{gwi:2142196}}

    Maybe it was the Dick Van Dyke Show instead!
    {{gwi:2142197}}
    {{gwi:2142198}}
    {{gwi:2142199}}

  • HomeChef59
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's a good idea. I have a kitchen that is 10 feet wide and 20 feet long. So, I understand not being able to position an island. It's so tempting, but it won't fit.

    I wanted to move the refrigerator off of the wall and away from the traffic zone. Good move.

    Can you reframe the window over the range so that is flanks the range on both sides?

    Can the wall that formerly held the refrigerator be moved out to install a wall of shallow pantry cabinets could be placed along that wall?

    Just throwing out some ideas. I like where live_wire_oak is going.

  • junco East Georgia zone 8a
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How about creating a deeper wall along the dining room to give a spot to recess the refrigerator, shallow pantry in the kitchen and/or shallow dish display in the dining room. This would free up the area between the mud room and foyer--possibly a small spot for two to sit?
    Please post a plan of the entire floor so we can see other possibilities for space.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Could we see a first floor plan? It seems like maybe the mud room ought to join the foyer rather than the kitchen, which would free up the upper right hand corner.

    I'm wondering if the dining room door could slide farther to the right? A lot farther? This would give you an uninterrupted U shaped kitchen. Or, if you don't want to eliminate the current doorway to the dining room, maybe a second one could be put in closer to the doorway to the foyer and cabinets could be run in between the 2 doorways.

    Is there a chimney or some other obstruction that you are trying to work around in the mudroom/fridge area?

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I came up with 2 options, but its hard to tell if they could work w/o knowing the the size of entries/windows. As others mentioned it'd help if you can provide us with more details.

    The first has a small table for 2.

    {{gwi:2142200}}

    The 2nd has no seating, but lots of storage.

    {{gwi:2142201}}

  • cardinegreen
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is the existing floor plan. I like some of your ideas! i have thought about doing a pass through but the wall is structural and would require a beam if i remove a large section of the wall. I also would have to relocate a bunch of mechanical ducts in the wall.

  • cardinegreen
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    here is a plan i was working on last night.... i think i actually like the direction of it! Thoughts??

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How willing are you to give up seating in the kitchen? That's the goal that isn't really working in any of the layouts. Which is why I placed the seating outside the kitchen in my idea. Also, if you are going to recess the fridge into the dining room, it will still require a header in the wall to do that. In for a penny, in for a pound! Just do the bigger header for the seating in the DR, IMHO.

    The seating and fridge location in your latest just don't work. The fridge's door swing is constrained, and the seating location isn't somewhere that's at all social. It's a lot of square footage dedicated to two people sitting. It's not really counterspace in the right spot to serve as a prep area. Not without a prep sink located there. And you'd still have the issue of the fridge. The fridge should be on the perimeter of a kitchen, easily accessible to those outside the main prep zone. Hiding it behind a circuitous route to it doesn't work for those who might need access from outside the kitchen.

  • robo (z6a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Would you be willing to close off the kitchen entrance from the foyer?

    I get to mine through my dining and haven't found it terribly inconvenient.

    What I'm thinking about is approximately 10 x 12 for kitchen and a small breakfast table.

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I moved entries, box window and the closet next to the foyer entry and come up with this.

    {{gwi:2142202}}

    The tall cab next to fridge (DW side), can house the MW either below counter or at wall cab, plus plates/glasses.

    {{gwi:2142203}}

    {{gwi:2142204}}

  • nels1678
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hi,

    I like that in the new layout the work area doesn't have anything obstructing the triangle, but I worry about that refrigerator door not opening past about 90- 100 degrees. You'll have be very careful.

    In the floor plan it looks like the dining room door is more centered on the wall but in your kitchen layout it looks like it's next to the counter top. Is the kitchen layout the correct placement?

    In any event, if the closet wall where the laundry chute is isn't load bearing, I' think I'd be really tempted to take the closet out enitrely so you could have counter and cabinets along the whole dining room wall all the way to the current foyer door. I think you could still leave cabinets or shelves where the closet is.

  • nels1678
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    oh wow, I missed that you were thinking of recessing the fridge! I wouldn't do that. Get a counter depth fridge or if you like the layout I proposed, maybe go with 30" depth counters there. I think you'd have enough room to pull it off. You could also put a small table down in that area like what was previously proposed. Otherwise I like live_wire_oak's pass-through suggestion too.

    This post was edited by markhpc on Tue, Dec 30, 14 at 10:42

  • steph2000
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What about moving the doorway to the dining room down to the area where the other doors are, which would allow you to do a U?

  • nels1678
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm starting to find myself confused. The placement of the window on the horizontal exterior wall seems to be different in recent plans than it was in the original pictures. A U is an interesting idea! Not sure how it would work with the HVAC and builtins though. Might have to make the foyer the primary kitchendining room path.

  • westsider40
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mine is 10x18 with 3 big windows and 3 doorways. We eat in at a table for 3 or 4 with little room to walk around, which is a compromise.

    1. We recessed the fridge 3 inches on the dr side. Our custom cabs surround our standard 25 c. f. LG,with a 34. 1/4 deep carcass. Not cd. Cheaper and bigger.

    2. Install an undercounter fridge outside of kitchen to divert traffic. Here you can put overflow produce, yogurts, fruit to grab, already made lunches, pop, milk, etc. we have Electrolux drawers which cost $2k approx 3 years ago. Uc fridge without drawers can cost way less and is fine if you are way younger than me! Put it in the dining room with the new cabinetry. You can stash it anywhere but outside of cooking zone. We love ours.

    3.cabinetry is key. Drawers with up and down dividers are a must.--either front to back or side to side but absolutely drawers with vertical dividers so that you don't and cannot nest any stuff. Access is key.

    4. I have toekick drawers but they are expensive. Maybe 500 per for not a ton of extra space.

    5. Vertical dividers above oven and/or fridge or more.

    6. Create wider rather than narrower drawer stacks. Construction innards take up space. Four drawer stacks are very useful, much more than three. You need some taller drawer but not mostly.

    7. I have 2 15 inch wide pantry pull outs with adjustable height shelves which have a 400+ pound capacity glide system. Holds a ton.

    8. I even made a window narrower by, I think, 9 inches, to fit tv cabinetry on the wall.

    I had a great Midwest cabmaker.. Ayr custom cabinetry of Nappanee, Indiana with Amish beginnings. IMO, cabinetry is key. Loves2cook4six of gw fame also used Ayr. Her kitchen is on gw. Check it out. Good luck.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would be tempted to move the kitchen to the sunroom and do a long u-shape there. Sunrooms have gorgeous windows and usually nice views that would be really lovely features of a kitchen. Like so:

    {{gwi:2142205}}

    {{gwi:2142206}}

    {{gwi:2142207}}

    With its long, skinny shape, the living room (immediately adjacent to the potential sunroom kitchen) really lends itself to two furniture groupings to break up the space. One could be a couch and some chairs clustered around the fireplace (maybe with a TV above the fireplace), and at the other end of the room, you could set up a kitchen table and chairs for informal dining handy to the sunroom kitchen.

    Like these:

    {{gwi:2142208}}

    {{gwi:2142209}}

    {{gwi:2142210}}

    {{gwi:2142212}}

    {{gwi:2142214}}

    Or if you'd rather have the fireplace next to the kitchen table, then like this:

    {{gwi:2142215}}

    So then with the sunroom kitchen, kitchen table, and cozy fireplace seating all clustered to the right of the foyer, you'd have sort of an informal family room side of the house. Everything to the left of the foyer could then be formal living -- formal dining and a parlor/library-type room. Or maybe a den instead of the parlor to use for entertaining on fancy occasions and as a place to get away from the rest of the family on a more regular basis. The pipes are already there from the current kitchen, so you could have a wet bar in that area too.

    Both the existing kitchen and dining are good sizes for a dining room, but I would leave the dining where it is. Though it is a bit of a hike from the potential sunroom kitchen, it would actually be a fairly straight walk between the two. You'd walk straight out the sunroom doors, between the two furniture groups in the living room, and through the open foyer. For a room that isn't where you'd eat on a daily basis, I think that would be fine. Your guests would definitely never see the mess in your kitchen.

    Moving the kitchen to the sunroom also means that the hall closet and the bit of hallway in front of the closet plus a bit of space stolen from the kitchen could be reconfigured into a powder room.

    {{gwi:2142216}}

    This post was edited by Jillius on Tue, Dec 30, 14 at 19:56

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like the Dick Van Dyke spin on the plan!

    However, if you can't do that...maybe this would be a possibility? A prep sink and large cutting board (that you can pick up and wash) might be handy on the island :) {{gwi:2142217}}From Kitchen plans

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had two small ideas that might help.

    {{gwi:2142218}}

    1) If you move the top three steps of the basement stairs to where the closet is currently (and widen the landing to meet it), you could close off that doorway in the kitchen. That would help your kitchen layout options immensely. I put in one rough idea for a kitchen layout, but I'm sure there are a lot of other possibilities with that doorway gone. Moving three steps shouldn't cost much at all.

    2) There is room to replace the lost closet by the front door, and it's actually a really natural addition. It's right where you come in with wet/dirty stuff, rather than so far down the hall inside, and it'd be bigger closet than what you lost. And there is an asymmetry with the window to the right of the front door that the closet would correct. Your living room is so long anyway that creating a little nook might be nice to break it up a bit anyway. Would be a good place to put a desk.

    And again, framing out a closet it really a pretty minor cost. I'd do a vertically split door there so you don't have a big door swinging into that vestibule.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just a general note about keeping the kitchen where it is.

    Because the kitchen is so small, give some serious thought to how you could add some architectural charm to the space. Things like high ceilings, beams, coffered ceilings, built-ins, interesting woodwork (wainscotting, crown molding, etc.), old floors with pretty patterns or inlays, interestingly-shaped doorways, interestingly-shaped windows, etc. The stuff people really coo over. Pick 1-2 that don't change the footprint you have.

    The exact same footprint with even one of those things can sell a house.

    Immediately for me, I'd be thinking about windows. You have just the one, and it's off to the side. Isn't there another house out that way? Wouldn't the better view be to the back of the house?

    A really grand window facing something pretty on that back wall there would really go a long way towards elevating your small space, and it would make it feel bigger. Perhaps do a big arched window or one with fancy molding around it or period mullions or something.

    Also, personally, I would scrap the seating in the kitchen and just widen the doorway between the dining and the kitchen and install pocket doors. You have room on the dining room side for the pocket doors, and they'll keep the formal dining feature of the house when closed, but give you the seating you want in your kitchen (or close enough) when open.

    {{gwi:2142219}}

    I know that wall is load-bearing and has HVAC, but widening a doorway should be less difficult than taking the wall down.

    Without seating in the kitchen, that is a three-cook kitchen right there. Lots of counter space with a view.

    This post was edited by Jillius on Wed, Dec 31, 14 at 17:22

  • FalParsi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow! So many thoughtful suggestions! You all are amazing. Have a similar kitchen in 100+ house with so many constraints. You have brought so many thoughtful arrangements to the OP. Just thanking everyone for their ideas-from a mostly quiet GW member.