Your link did not work for me- it took me to hotmail's sign in page!

Click on the "blank" document...it brings up Adobe Reader w/the document (6 pages). However, it is hard to read. I'm trying to cross reference the wall details w/the main layout to get the correct measurements.

You do not have to sign in....at least I didn't!

It looks like a workable layout, but it is hard to get a good idea of everything with it fuzzy and dark. It actually looks as if it's to scale, but just doesn't give you much in the way of references to other rooms, etc. If you can decipher it well enough, could you redraw it on graph paper?...If so, including info about what other rooms are where, which are outside walls, etc., is helpful. I just figured out that the 'larger island' is the black area on the far right of the floorplan. How far will it be from the other island? Looks like quite a ways, so could your kitchen island be deeper for a better work area, and so there's a place by the sink on the fridge end to set things?

Mum: This is what I think the measurements are:

Wall #1: 168"
Wall #2: 132" + ?? doorway + 27" = 157" + ??
Wall #3: 132"
Wall #5: 60" (small island)
.....42"? b/w island and Wall #1?
.....42"? b/w island and Wall #2?
.....42"? b/w island and Wall #3?
Wall #6: 96" (large island)
.....??" b/w large island and small island
.....??" b/w island and Wall #1 (diagonal measurement to end of wall #1's cabinet run)
.....??" b/w island and Wall #3 (diagonal measurement to end of wall #3's cabinet run
Window: 79" + molding?
.....60"? b/w left wall and window
.....30"? b/w right wall and window

Please correct me where I am wrong.

Just curious, what happened to Wall #4?

Is there a reason there are so many "gaps" b/w cabinets and walls? E.g., Wall #2, right side, there are 12" b/w the end of the upper cabinet run & the wall; or, Wall #1, right side, there are 4.5" b/w the end of the base cabinet run and the wall (there are other gaps as well)

This is what I think your appliance wish list is:
36" Refrigerator, counter depth
36" Cooktop
36" Vent Hood...should be 42" (it's strongly recommended the hood be 6" wider than the cooktop)
??" MW
27" single wall oven (b/c you only have a 30" cabinet...a 30" oven will barely fit in a 30" cabinet, if it fits at all; if you want a 30" wall oven, should have a 33" oven/tall cabinet)
36" sink
24" DW
24" Beverage Chiller/Cooler on large island

BTW...do the cabinets & refrigerator/cooler face the FR or Kitchen? It's so far from the main Kitchen that I think it should face the FR. Have you thought of putting a second MW there as well? (for popcorn & other snacks)

I assume you plan to put the table b/w the small and large island...correct?

Once I know the correct measurements, I can work on layouts...

Wow Buehl! Thanks for all that work. I wanted to scan a drawing from graph paper, but am snowed in here in Boston!

Wall #1: 168". This wall is an outside wall and the right end is sliders to the patio. The 4.5" gap is probably to the trim of the sliders. Someone suggested to remove the cabinents on each side of the sink and replace with open shelving to "open up the room". What do you think?

Wall #2: 132". The doorway is to the mudroom and a 6'x9' walk in pantry. I think the 12" gap is for the corner cabinet (?). If I need a 42" hood, it looks like the upper cabinets on each side of the cooktop will need to be 3" smaller on each side. (The appliance sales guy said this is not necesarry when I asked about it after reading that here. I am worried that they placed the vent duct work for a 36" hood already. Do you think that makes a difference?).

Wall #3 is only 121" (he messed up on the drawing:)) The doorway is to the dining room and then there is door to the basement. I was going to make the pull out pantry (#20 on wall 3) 15" instead of 18". I am having 30" double ovens, so I guess that is where those 3" need to go. So, the landing area between ovens and refrigerator will only be 30".

Wall #4: it looks like he named that small wall next to the pull out pantry wall #4. not sure why

wall #5:smaller island. It is 60". I am not sure of width, but we will have it curved for more stool seating. I was hoping the prep sink would be small enough that there would be a landing area on that end of the island. I guess I could put things past the sink if there is not room? What do you recommend for this island? I picture my kids (4 of 'em) sitting there for breakfast, lunch, snacks, coloring, HW...and as a prep area for me.

There is 11.5' b/w the large and small island. As I said, I will have 4 stools at the island and also want to fit a table for 6 in there too (would love round if it fits).

The large island is 96". It does not seem far from the kitchen to me. I will store more entertaining things in there. The side in the family will be plain as we plan to put the back of our sofa against it.

I am worried that this cabinet maker may make beautiful cabinets (he does) but is not a kitchen planner and has no clue what he is doing! I LIVE in my kitchen most days and we want this done right. Based on any feedback I get here, we are considering going out on our own to have a kitchen designed for us - perhaps use a KD who uses dynasty omega, based on a friend's recommendation.

I really appreciate any and all feedback! About layout, design...thank you!!!

Hood: Even w/42", it would still be centered at the same point. The only possible issue is the diameter of the ductwork. The diameter, though, is not based on the width, rather it's based on the number of cubic feet per minute (cfm) of air that's moved. Looking at the Vent-A-Hood site, they show 42" hoods needing 6" for 300cfm, 8" for 600 cfm, 10" for 900cfm, and 12" for 1200cfm. In most homes, 300cfm is probably enough, although 600cfm is probably better. So, if your duct work is done, all you need to do is measure the diameter and purchase a hood accordingly. [To find out the diameter needed for a hood, check the installation specs.]

I think the curved counter would be a great idea to fit all 4 children...but you'll need 8' (2'/person) of counter (I don't know how much of a curve that would require). Ideally, you should also have a 15" overhang for counter height seating...while a young child does not necessarily need the space, they won't be young for long plus you probably want it to be comfortable for adults as well (12" overhang if raised to bar height). You could probably get away with only 10 or 12 inches at the very ends of the curve, but nothing less.

Well, I'm off to take DD to the hospital...she injured her foot playing basketball and cannot put any weight on it. I'll take this info with me...it will give me something to do while I wait!

HTH!

Any advice on how to get more responses on this? thanks!

I think part of the problem is that the PDF file is difficult to read so people may not be responding.

Is it possible to draw it up on graph paper, take a digital picture, and post it that way?

I didn't have time yesterday to work on it...I'll try to find time tonight.

Are you happy with the small island?

So, my worst case math on the table...

One way to think of it is as if trying placing a table and six chairs in a eight foot wide room and then adding on an aisle and a countertop with stools. On the other side of the eight foot room, you want a hutch and you want to be able to open it even when the table is occupied. So there needs to be about a three foot aisle (for you to be able to open the doors).

The depth of the countertop overhang + about 24" for an occupied stool plus about 30" for an aisle between the stool and the table's chairs = perhaps 5.5 feet. A 36" wide table plus chairs on both sides is about 5 feet when the chairs are empty and about 7 feet when filled. Then add on for a 36" aisle between the filled chairs and the large island. For nice spacing, you need about 15 feet.

You could borrow a little bit from the 36" aisle for filled chairs and another little bit if the chairs and stools will never be occupied at the same time, but you'd still need about 13 feet and you have 11.5 feet.

Alternately, can you see a table seating 3 on each side and one on the end attached to your small island?

I think you should seriously consider Bmorepanic's idea. If you do the math to figure out a curve to give you 96" (4 people * 24" each = 96")...you have to have a pretty big overhang in the middle of the curve (30"??) b/c you're trying to add another 36" to the 60" you have right now OR if you choose to put 2 seats on the long side & 1 on each short side, you still need a 24" overhang.

If you go with Bmorepanic's idea, you will be able to seat 6 or 7 at the island...which will then do double duty as both the breakfast/HW/project location as well as the dining area for every day eating. Some people who have done something similar have even lowered the seating area to table height and some of those even have a different counter/table top material for the "table" area. If you browse the FKB you should see some of kitchens those kitchens.

Here's a possible layout that incorporates Bmorepanic's idea.

Walls:

Sink Wall:

* I bumped out the sink 3". Most sinks are a tight fit in a 24" deep counter, making the faucet placement problematical if it has a back handle and even for some side handles (the ones that go back & forth instead of side to side). Adding 3" gives you enough room to place the faucet where you want w/o hitting the wall or window.

* I moved the DW to the other side (right side) of the sink so it does not interfere with the prep & cooking areas.

* This also moves the trash to the left side of the sink, which makes the trash pullout more accessible to those prepping and cooking as well as those cleaning up.

* You asked about open shelving on either side of the sink to "open" it up. I think it's open enough already. I think the upper cabinets would actually frame the window and set it off (as well as give you additional storage). If the window was narrow, I might have agreed with "opening" it up, but it's over 6.5' so it's already wide open.

Cooktop Wall:

* As with the sink, I bumped out the cooktop 3" for similar reasons. Most 36" (and probably 30") cooktops leave you with very little space behind it. Adding 3" to the counter depth gives you more room around the cooktop for cooking tools, etc. while cooking.

* I already expressed my preference for a 42" hood (see previous posts) and I put one in. If you decide not to go with it, it will add 3" to the upper cabinet space on both sides of the cooktop.

Refrigerator/Oven Wall:

* I switched the refrigerator and double ovens b/c it's not a good idea to have ovens opening directly into a doorway (in this case it was the Mudroom/Pantry doorway). It's a safety issue. The refrigerator is still isolated enough that people looking for a snack won't interfere too much in the kitchen work zones yet it's still accessible to the work zones and follows a good workflow (refrigerator to prep area & sink)

* I increased the oven stack width to 33" to accommodate 30" ovens.

* I also moved the MW over to this wall between the refrigerator and oven stack. It can either be on an open or enclosed shelf or built in w/a trim kit (27" cabinet). If it's on an open or enclosed shelf, be sure the sides, back, and floor of the area are finished to match the exterior of your cabinets. Underneath it is a 29.5" counter for landing space for the ovens, refrigerator, MW, or even Pantry.

I moved it here for several reasons:
-- It makes the MW accessible to people outside the working kitchen w/o intruding too much in the work zones (for heating snacks or popping popcorn)
-- Since most items to be microwaved go from the refrigerator or freezer directly to the MW, it makes sense to have them near each other.
-- It's also near the serving areas (island & DR doorway) since most items go from the MW to the table
-- It looks like you had it behind doors next to the range. However, most MWs need a deeper cavity to reside in than the standard upper cabinet depth (several people on the forum have found this out too late and struggled to find a MW shallow enough to fit a 12" depth). Most MWs need a depth around 21". You'd either have to make all the upper cabinets on that wall 21" deep (which wouldn't work w/the corner cabinet), or have just that one be deeper...but that wouldn't look very good.

* Landing areas:
-- Counter b/w the refrigerator and oven stack for refrigerator, MW, ovens, and Pantry
-- End of cooktop run for refrigerator and Pantry (if needed, but is across a doorway)
-- Island for MW and ovens

Small Island:

* As mentioned earlier, I incorporated Bmorepanic's idea. Note that I only put 6 chairs around the island. A 7th could be off to the side unless needed. The area b/w the islands is a major thoroughfare so I didn't want to block it off unless necessary. Right now there is approx a 46-inch clearance b/w the islands which should be fine. If you added a chair there all the time, it would reduce it to less than 40"...a little tight for a walkway.

Seat spacing includes 6" in the corner + 24" for each seat for a total of 6.5' length. This will seat 6 people comfortably and even 7 if needed. The width/depth of the table area is 36" (I measured our kitchen table that seats 6...it's 36" wide).

* I increased the depth of the work area on the island to 36". This gives you a bigger work area and leaves extra room behind the prep sink so it doesn't splash someone sitting at the island. It also provides additional landing space for the ovens, if needed. This extra 12" depth gives you more cabinet space as well. I show one possible cabinet arrangement, but there are others. Two possible configurations.
-- 36" facing sink wall + 15" next to the sink + 12" facing ovens [shown]
-- You could also have 39" facing the cooktop + 12" facing the ovens + 12" facing the sink

* To be useful, the prep sink should be at least 12" square, 15" or 18" is better
Note: be sure you have at least 3" b/w the sink & edge of the countertop on the side.

Large Island: No changes except cabinet sizes...but those are up to you!

++++++++++++++++

I hope this has given you some things to think about. But, remember, this is your kitchen so, ultimately, the final layout is your call. We can provide suggestions and our opinions, but you can take them or leave them as you see fit. In the end, your kitchen has to work for you and your family so only you and your family can make the final design decisions.

Good luck! Let me know if you have any questions.

Thank you all so much for your ideas. I met with a KD today and the one major change she suggested was to move the fridge to the cooktop wall. So, it would be fridge, 18" landing space, cooktop, 9" and then the corner cabinet. She thought this made sense for how the kitchen is used and would not impede anyone walking from mudroom into main part of kitchen.

What do you all think of this rough layout? thanks!

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:1989139}}

Ugh! looks like the KD may have goofed - there is only 132" on the cooktop wall. Builder called to say if we move fridge (which we need to decide tonight due to electrical...) we would have no landing space to right of cooktop AND cooktop and hood would not be centered, so not look as good. What to do????

Your links are asking for a password...But that's weird, because I was able to see your first plan the other day.

Sorry...First time through I totally spaced over that you wanted to fit in a table, which is why the 2nd island was 'so far' from the rest of the kitchen. I agree with the others, though, that you are a bit short on space for 2 kinds of seating in there. Is this your dining table, or just a kitchen eating space with a dining room elsewhere? The table attached to the island is good for kitchen seating, but I wouldn't want it if it's your only dining area.

From the measurements I see on Buehl's plan, it looks like you could do 36" fridge, 12" counter, 36" stove, then the 36" corner cabinet. That's what I had in our last house. Not terrible, not wonderful. I think, though, that Buehl's plan (the only one I can see right now) looks way better than a plan that tries to shove the fridge on the same wall as the stove. You have the room, and it's a convenient location where she shows it, so why crowd yourself, ruin the nicer look, and take from the storage near your stove?

Open shelves: Personally, I don't like them. I prefer doors to the cleaning hassles (greasy dust on shelves and contents). Maybe glass in the doors instead?...Or cut the uppers back just a bit (maybe 6" on each side) so your window has more open space around it.

As with RHome, I disagree with your KD...it will really cramp the cooktop wall and ruin the look of the wall. Right now, you will have a nice focal point (probably second to the window view though!) with the cooktop and wood hood. It also cuts out a lot of counter space (37.5") in a prime work area. Counterspace on the oven wall isn't as useful as it's in a main walkway and far from the "center" of the kitchen work area.

In addition, if you move the cooktop down to fit the refrigerator and keep the DW where it is now, you will have a really crowded corner and a potential bottleneck...two people trying to work at the cooktop and the sink/DW may collide on occasion.

Small Island: If the clearances are what I have in the previous layout, you will not be able to expand it to 66+ inches w/o taking away needed aisle space. Also, w/an 18" overhang, that brings down the available table space to 10' (11'6" - 1'6"). Using Bmorepanic's conservative calculations:

1.5' overhang + 2' occupied stool + 2.5' aisle + 2' table seat + 3' table + 2' seating area b/w large island & table = 13'...and that's very conservative. Realistically, you should have more space b/w the small island & table since it's a walkway and behind the table. A round table would have to have about a 4' diameter to seat 6 people, so you need to add another foot...so now you need 14'.

Can you squeeze all of this in? Yes, but it will be tight and crowded. Can live with it? Only you can answer that. And remember that a tight/crowded area not only has a negative affect on function, it also has a negative affect on form!

I hope your KD brought up all of these issues as well...

I still think Bmorepanic's idea of a "T" island with seating along the leg of the "T" is your best bet and, it allows more island seating as well as a choice of "view"!

I also see that your KD wants you to put a MW Drawer in your island rather on the oven wall. That's fine if you really want it, but, it's a lot more expensive and has less functionality than a countertop model (put in a wall cabinet) and, in my opinion, not as convenient. If you have no cabinet place for a MW then I think it's better than putting one on the countertop, but I think you'll be happier with one mounted higher in a wall cabinet (whether it's a tall cabinet or upper cabinet)...and you'll save several hundred dollars! In the layout posted earlier today, you can drop the upper cabinet a few inches to bring it down to a comfortable level for you if you think it's too high...OR...you can put it in a tall cabinet at whatever height you like w/pantry pullouts beneath (but it will eliminate the 29"/30" counter underneath it that acts as landing space for the MW and ovens.

In the end it's your call...but don't let the KD (or us for that matter!) talk you into something you really don't want or that doesn't feel right.

I'll agree with rhome410, buehl and bmorepanic.

The design presented is much better than the rough sketch provided by the KD (who probably won't admit it, or wants to put her/his own "stamp" on your kitchen).

I agree the cooktop wall will be cramped. Our fridge will be on our cooktop wall, but we'll have 192" for that space.

It also puts the ovens back into that doorway area - our current ovens are where the fridge is in your KDs plan and its horrible because of the traffic that comes from the mudroom (that's where the bathroom and playroom are too).

It also looks like you have a smaller island and less seating.....

mumof4 - I'm curious what final layout you went with. Have you finalized it yet?