We have one wall of cabinets and a large island, and made the aisle 48" (we mocked it up first). There is no way we could have seating on the side that has the appliances. I think you would need 60" at a minimum for seating on that side.

Thanks sjhockeyfan. I figured we'd only use that end of the island for me when the cooking is done and I just want to sit a minute. I was thinking a backless stool pushed under so it's out of the way. It wouldn't be used regularly. Mostly the long side and the short side at the other end is where we'd have stools with backs.

What are your thoughts of the layout in general? I'm still kind of thinking about wall ovens and a rangetop, but can't decide if it would take up too much space.

Thanks

Full confession, I'm a germaphobe. I also have two messy family members. I'd never want my cleanup sink where others would be eating or hanging out. If i were you I would relocate sink to the window. is there enough room for you to stand at stove while someone else I'd at the sink? Move the fridge to the end and turn the pantry sideway while reducing depth.

FamCook, can you post a layout showing dimensions? (PS, I'm not a germaphobe to any degree whatsoever, so I'll have a very different take on this than Nashville LOL)

NashvilleBuild42 - thanks for the input. I guess I'm not really a germaphobe, although you've got me thinking . . . :) the original plan had the sink in the corner, but I feel like I spend SO much time at the sink. Loading and unloading the dishwasher, hand washing items, prepping so I wanted to sink on the island so I could see everything. The dining room and living room are all kind of open to each other. I don't think I can have two sinks.

Sjhockeyfan - does this work? Or is it way to busy? I can print out the pic and try and write in the dimensions if this is too much.

Also, open end of the kitchen at the end of the island is windows and there are a couple of big windows right past the pantry area.

Thanks so much!

That works fine - I can't look at it right now, but I certainly will when I have time!

Thanks!

A few other things to mention:

We are adding in the window in the layout, there isn't anything there now. I assume a window would always be better than another layout using that corner? I'm open to anything right now. Like I said, there will be 9 feet of windows at the other end of the island, but they are looking north. The dining area just past the pantry and island will have 6 feet of windows facing south.

I would like all drawers on the bottom.

First time with a full kitchen remodel from the studs. Can't wait!

How much space do you have on the seating sides of the island to anything behind it?

There is 5' on the short end to windows and 6.5' on the long end to our table.

Here's a close up of the plans that show how it ties into the dining and family area. Like I said, the small window in the kitchen area is being added in. And there will not be a post on the island.

How much are you willing to change? Where are you flexible?

The new window - I assume it's the one on the "bottom" right wall ("2-3226"). Is that a correct assumption? Can it be changed (height) or moved around (it's not there now...so I'm assuming you're pretty flexible).

What about the window on the bottom left next to the Refrigerator? Is that new or existing? Can it be changed/moved?

Can that small wall segment in the upper right of the DR be moved or removed? What about the matching segment on the left (next to the Kitchen cabinets/counters)? (They may be needed b/c of load issues - but I wonder if the walls have to be so wide or if they can be moved.) At the very least, can the one in the DR be moved to the entry or "split the difference" and put some in the entry and some in the DR?

Do you really need a doorway b/w the DR and what appears to be an entry (front entry? back entry?). That doorway is going to be an issue for any table you put in the DR. I recommend closing it up. It's not that far from the other doorway in the entryway ("top" wall next to the closet).

"...48" between island and wall cabinets..."

If the aisles are measured cabinet-to-cabinet, then be aware that your aisles are actually 3" narrower than you think. You need to measure counter-to-counter and appliance handles-to-counter to get true aisle measurements.

Buehl thanks for your comments - actually all the windows are "new" the dining room area has weird short windows, those will be filled in partially and two new windows. The single window by the fridge is currently not there at all. Right now that is the only spot we could add a window in the kitchen. There is a brick chimney on the outside of the house. I'm going to ask about removing it, but for now, I'm assuming that we can't.

This is a very small old house. The kitchen is where the old living room use to be. The old kitchen is where the closet by the front entry is. We have a big family, but are trying to keep it as small as possible. It's on a beautiful, wooded spot on a couple acres. Anyways . . .

I'll ask about that small segment wall, I know we need it for support. Splitting might be a good idea.

The opening in the DR to the entry is already there as it was to the kitchen. I think the designer thought to leave it because there are rooms to the "right"of the entry. We could fill it in though, I don't think that would be a big change. I may wait to see how it looks, but I kind of questioned that already too.

And, yes, you are right, I didn't think about the counters in the measurements, but the kitchen designer shows 48" and 43", so I'm thinking maybe she took that into account? I should ask about that.

If you have a DR table right next to the island, why does the island need to seat your entire family (i.e., have 7 seats)?

Most people only use the island for snacks and/or quick meals when not everyone is eating. When everyone is sitting down to eat, they use the table. Table space is much more comfortable for meals. It provides more space, a better height for everyone (30" height is a good height for sitting down for people of all heights...short to tall, including children), and is more "bonding friendly" since people are sitting on all four sides and are facing others across the table.

Very true, the island doesn't really have to seat everyone, but I think at least five. Our children are 9 and under, and yes they grow up quickly, but I can see them eating breakfast at the island before school and I foresee issues if there weren't enough seats for all of them.

So I'm thinking seating only on two sides.

I guess I never answered where I am flexible. I like the big island and I like the main sink in it because I spend so much time there, but the rest I'm flexible with. Even the sink on the island, maybe if I had a prep sink that'd be fine. But I didn't think I had enough room for a prep sink. The little window is flexible. I just assumed it'd be better to have a window.

I have obviously never done this. We've always had hundred year old houses with tiny layouts that we went able to change much.

Don't you have 12'+12' for the kitchen and DR? If so, I think you can have U kitchen which I believe will give much more counter and storage that can be easily accessed than the cabs under the bar overhang.

2 legs of the U can be 117" apart (2 36` corners, 36' range plus 12" for any fillers etc I,m missing minus 3" for counter overhang) With 15" for bar you have .135" (117+3+15). Would that bring you too close to your dining table? With a 48" table there'd be 69' b/w the table and the peninsula bar (if I did the math correct)

I have windows on both sides of the range if you can get rid of the chimney.

The problem with a deep"U" with a shallow base like this is that as FamCook's children grow up they will be helping in the Kitchen and a "U" with such a small base means there isn't a lot of space for others to work and move around. Even 117" isn't wide enough, IMHO, given the locations of the range and sink (try them across from each other with enough space b/w them to be both workspace and a "buffer zone".)

I grew up as the oldest of 6 and I can tell you that working in a "U" like this is just asking for trouble - "she's using my workspace", "he's taking up too much room in the aisle and I can't get by", etc. No matter how "well behaved" or "well trained" children are, they are still children - and a deep "U" with a short base is not conducive to congenial working together!

This is one of those situations where I think either an island or a shallow "U" with a wide base would be best - plenty of workspace + escape routes!

Try moving the peninsula to b/w the Great Room and the Kitchen and opening up the space b/w the kitchen and DR.

BTW...I don't think you will be able to eliminate that wall segment in the DR. I think it will have to stay and some of it will probably have to be in the DR. The doorway in the entry is around 64" or 65" wide, so some of the wall can be moved into that opening - assuming it can be moved at all. (If the entire wall can be moved, great! But, I'm not sure it can.)

I have 2 or 3 layouts I'm working on and will have them ready sometime this evening. I probably will not add the "U" to the set I'm working on, I'll leave that layout to Sena01 to work with - if s/he has time! (S/he generally has good ideas!)

Buehl - ha! I like the way you think. Oldest of six, you know how kids think and how they act. I always think that way, I'm the youngest of four, maybe that's why I always let everyone else make the decisions, wait . . . that's another forum. :)

So, I think the peninsula would make me feel trapped possibly. I do like the idea of extra storage and the layout . . . But can't wrap my head around the change. I think I like the island idea better.

Just met with our builder, he came over and he thinks that the segment can be removed. Some sort of beam in the attic and so on. I didn't totally get all that, as long as it works. I was busy overseeing a little donut mess that was happening. He even think that entire wall MIGHT be able to come out. He said plan for no little wall segments in the DR or kitchen for now and well see about the entire wall later.

Thanks for all of your help Sena and buehl!

Oh and I don't think the chimney can come down. Kind of stinks, but oh well. Also, our builder thinks we should keep the window to see the driveway and front yard since I spend so much time in the kitchen.

OK, here are three layouts. They each have pros & cons. I think Layout #1 is my favorite. Layout #3 is my least favorite, but I included it for something different. (I did not do a "U" or peninsula layout b/c Sena01 is working on those ideas.)

In this first layout,I put in an 8' window and did not include a window on the left side - but I do show where it optionally could be. If you use the optional window, you will loose approx. 30" of storage space and I think it will throw off the overall balance of cabinets in the kitchen. If you could have flanked the range with windows, it would be better, but the chimney is in the way. Plus, you'd lose another 36" of storage space. I think that 8' window will bring in plenty of light & will be more than enough. You will be prepping facing away from the wall, so I don't think the second, smaller window will be missed. [Note that 70% or more of the time spent in the kitchen is spent prepping - so the majority of time you won't be facing the wall.] YMMV

All layouts:

(1) Have the Pantry closer to the garage - especially layouts 1 & 2.

(2) Have plenty of storage space - especially layouts 1 & 2. Layout 3 makes up for the lack of wall storage with more storage in the island.

(3) The Refrigerator is near the Dining Room so it's easy to get condiments, etc. It's also a direct shot to the Great Room so people don't have to cross any of the primary Kitchen work zones to get to it - which means they won't be underfoot!

Layouts 1 & 2 have six seats at the island; layout 3 has seven seats.

In layouts 1 & 3, the MW is next to the Refrigerator and is easily accessed from the Great Room without having to cross any of the primary Kitchen work zones to get to it.

Layouts 2 & 3 feature counter-height windows with a bumpout. (See the thread linked below for some examples of bumped out counters/windows- especially MamaDadaPaige and ErikaNH's windows.)

None of the layouts have the Cleanup Zone in the island. Personally, I would not want to sit where dirty dishes were staring me in the face. An island Cleanup Zone also draws attention to dirty dishes and puts them "front and center" so no one can miss them! With a prep sink in the island, you can put the Cleanup Zone on the perimeter where it's not as noticeable.

Something to keep in mind:

• 70% of the time spent in the kitchen is spent prepping (some studies put the number at 75%)

• 20% of the time is spent cleaning up

• 10% of the time is spent cooking

So, the "prime" kitchen real estate should contain the Prep Zone since you will be spending most of your time there. In most cases, that means the island/peninsula or, if no island/peninsula, in front of a window (assuming you have a window and the view is pleasant).

Note: To see a larger version, select/click on a layout.

Layout #1

...

Before I went to sleep I read your and buehl's reservations about U kitchens for big families, so gave up on that idea. With a 3 meters (~118") wide galley kitchen with one opening I assumed 117" was a good size, but I never worked in a kitchen with 5 kids lol!

I tried to fit a wall oven but was too sleepy to do the math last night. After seeing buehl's first 2 options I think you can have wall oven(s) on the exterior wall. You can use two cabs on the island for plate/glass storage. The fridge and pantry placement can change. Some prefer it closer to the cooktop and also if someone is trying to set the table while another is trying to use the fridge having the fridge on the top wall may work better.

Since I"m no expert I'm not sure about the exact size needed for appliances, (I see that the 36" fringe has 1 1/4 (1 1/2??) on each side), so I just went with approximate sizes and tried to leave extra inches here and there.

Since you mentioned feeling trapped with a peninsula, I thought you'd enjoy wider aisles (48') around the island so kept the island at 60x106,5 including 15" bar. From exterior wall to the end of island you'd have 180' and from top wall to the end of island it is 133,5".

Wow! You both reall outdid yourselves! I am so excited to pour over these. I really like the prep sink on the island. I will look over these and see about the window changes. The window guy is my brother, so I'm sure I can find out quickly.

Buehl - I actually really like layout 2. Even though the fridge is a bit far from the cooking area and I would have to cross zones I like the prep sink on the long side of the island. Do you think the fridge distance would be a big problem?

The window can be changed to a bump out. I'm not sure if I will change the dining room windows. Currently they are a little over 6' wide. Haven't thought about that much.

One more question for you buehl - are the island cabinets 27"deep instead of 24"?

Thanks

Can you talk more about why your family must sit at an island? I am wondering what happens if you design a kitchen around a huge island and they find they are more comfortable sitting at the table which is just five feet away.

Mayflowers - actually my family doesn't have to sit at an island. We have never had one that had more than two stools in our houses so far.

But, I can see them eating breakfast at an island while I get lunches ready, cook breakfast, etc. Also, when we entertain I end up being in the kitchen a lot and so friends gravitate to standing around in our tiny kitchen while others fill up the table. Kids are everywhere. I really think we will eat dinner at our table every night like we usually do, but I see the island being for homework and snacks while I cook dinner and some kids will be at the table too.

Does any of this make sense? I like the idea of having friends and kids sitting at the island while I cook so I can enjoy the company but feel like I have my own space to cook.

A good example is today, I have two extra kids over and they are making beads, eating and having fun. I could see them at the island doing this and the table while I am cleaning up from breakfast and getting lunch ready.

Funny you mentioned beads. One of the first thing that happened at our island (which replaced an eat in kitchen table) was a craft project with my DD and a friend.

We use our island constantly. I'm here right now with my laptop. Eating. Talking, homework, crafts, etc. all besides food prep. We have 4 stools (4 in family) at the island but bought another we bring out when needed.

We have a dining room that we eat most dinners in.

FamCook, I've never had an island either. I'd love to have one but I have a peninsula instead. You say "kids are everywhere", but the kitchen has to function for the cook first. It feels that you're designing your work zone around kids and non-cooking activities, and you've never had a huge island to see if it's going to work. I could cook comfortably in that kitchen, but when I think of adding in kids and their friends...phew!

Could you do with four stools for craft projects etc. and eat all meals at the table? The kids may want to sit at the more comfortable table once the novelty of them all packed tight at the island wears off. And they're only going to get bigger.

Would a 36" range be better when you're cooking for seven plus friends? I cook for two on a 30" range.

Debrak2008 - that's what I picture! My DH and I joke about it being command central. Haha

Looking for at the layouts above... I like buehls #1. Keep in mind you will be wiping the island often and the bigger it is the harder to reach the middle. Mine is 70" by 42" rounded at one end. For me its big enough to clean, would not want it bigger. Also, any bigger and it would be harder to catch the cat : )

With any island ideas it is always a good idea to mock it up with boxes and such to get a feel for the size.

Mayflowers - I get what you are saying. I have always functioned cooking in tiny kitchens with very limited counter space. I don't even think I could count any of my kitchens as having zones - just a small space crammed with the essentials and not laid out efficiently by any means.

I'm trying to be realistic about how we use our table now. I'd like to move some of that "stuff" to clear up the table for eating. A family member's house has an island that separates the cooking area and the dining table and I feel like its conducive to both cooking and our lifestyle.

Funny you mention the larger range. I have been waffling back and forth on that one. If the range is laid out well and has island trim, I think a 30 could work. As long as I could use all four burners. I have been taking my larger pots and pans to showrooms and trying them out. I would love a 36 inch, but can't seem to justify the additional cost if I won't use 6 burners. I tend to grill outside even in the winter and I have a large cast iron griddle, so I don't know if I'd use a griddle or grill built in.

By kids everywhere, I mean all over the house. I usually always keep them out of my cooking area, unless they are helping. I'm hoping a separate clean up zone would help with. In theory, I shouldn't ever have to load or unload the dishwasher . . . Possibly a pipe dream. :)

I was trying to get the point across that debrak made--with the island so wide, you have a dead zone in the middle. But you need the width to accommodate three stools on the end. If you shorten it, you'd have more breathing room in the aisle. I'd shorten the length too. In the future, your teenagers will be behind the island. I think you have to plan for this. Right now, it's all about the island.

I'm not good at reading blueprints, but what is that room to the left of the great room? Could that be a dining room? Maybe the dining table could be moved there and you could do two narrower islands, one for prep and one for seating.

The vision you have in your head, romantic as it is, will only last for a little while. The kids will grow, start helping cook, then take over their own cooking tasks and make their own lunches. And do the dishes. They need more space for homework and activities and the island is not the place you want them building a model of the Manhattan Bridge. And you don't want to write a lot of apology/explanation notes about how Buster's spaghetti sauce got on Betty's homework.

As they grow, they will consume volumes more food - meaning your have to store more as well as prepare more. As your children start having friends hanging around, the problem of crossing paths or tight aisles gets worse. Plus, when meal times come, they're going to be popping all over the place carrying out their tasks.

I think you should have more storage for food, more storage for gear and more room for others to work on meals. I would choose a design with a separate cleanup area with a decent amount of dish storage cause the minimum you'll need will be services for a dozen..

I would make sure I had a place for at least a small, cheap, beverage refrigerator that was table accessible. It keep room in the big ref for food by moving out the juices, milk, cold water and other fluids that are not used in cooking.

In the long term, having enough area for everyone to help and share in the responsibility of cooking and cleaning as well as watching would be a lot more valuable to me than to have stools at the island. I would get the longest table I could find, tho, to have enough seating for meals for everyone who was present at the same time.

Plus, it will make it easier to care for whoever ends up with crutches, walkers, wheelchairs, and slings from the normal assortment of childhood injuries.

jill (one of seven sibs)

We're thinking the same. I had just sent the layout to the cabinet person and I said I think I'd like the island a little smaller with maybe just 5 seats. Narrower and more room in the aisles. I have learned so much from this forum and the helpful users!

I still kind of like 2 even though I'd have to cross to get to the fridge. Something about a sink with a window. Maybe I'm stuck in a rut, but I like to stare out a good window. Once again . . . Another forum. :)

Bmorepanic - so which layout do you think it most useful? I think I'd like the island a little smaller anyways. But I do want seating at the island. It can be five stools.

Our table is long and fits more than all of us. Seats 8 to 10. What if I switched the pantry and the fridge in layout 2 and had a small beverage fridge somewhere?

I posted a question about that space next to the great room. I think we cross-posted. Is that a room or a patio? I can't read blueprints. Looks like an ideal separate dining room space, which is what you really need. Is this a new build?

I wish I knew how much of the bigger drawing is new. I can't quite tell about the powder room, laundry, etc. on the real wall, the wet bar - if they are new with the kitchen?

Given that, I like layout 2 of buehl's without the seats or with only 4 seats. A somewhat thinner island and the sink moved over from the corner a bit more so people can approach the cleanup sink from both sides. I think the ideal island doesn't exceed about 60 inches of depth.

There isn't a lot of difference between that and Sena01 at Thu, Jan 2, 14 at 6:48 except for the position of the refrigerator. Having had that exact position of the ref, tho - right next to an entrance, - I would not do i again. It drove me crazy not to be able to see who was going out or coming in.

A crazier layout and just something to think about (doodles are free) is perhaps something a little more old school - sort of along the lines ye old table in the middle of the kitchen. Trades the laundry to the wet bar, the potty to the laundry, runs cabinets on two walls. Almost leaves the lower right hall door where it was. Adds the wet bar to the kitchen, but lets it double as a snack bar or breakfast bar (meaning toast, juice, cereal, milk, microwave) plus an in kitchen place for an undercounter ref.

It has more places to prep - the table, barville, both sides of the cleanup sink and the counter by the bigger ref. I think both the ref and the pantry are drawn at about 42" but meant as a 36" ref and a 48" pantry. None of this is measured or precise.

There may be other reasons why you might not like it, and those reasons might be plentiful :). But it values togetherness more than absolute efficiency. It puts all the seating together so latecomers aren't excluded.

It envisions that family and friends sit down to do some things - peel and chop a lot of veg, squeeze lemons, make meringues, roll out cookies, etc. In that set up, I'd likely get a 2-3" deep board, maybe with short legs, for a little more working space when pressed into standing work, but still at the table...

Lastly, I think the best kitchens take at least a couple of months to think through all of the issues and feel comfortable with the solutions you choose. Try not to hurry the process. We all know that feeling of pressure to get started and get it done. Try to ignore it and take as much time as you need.

Mayflowers - it is a patio. This is a remodel of a tiny little house in a great spot. We are adding on a little.

Bmorepanic - I like your doodles! Unfortunately the wet bar area is off limits to our kitchen, laundry area. Long story. I like the mudroom area the way you drew it, although then I'd have the laundry room in the basement, which is what I've always had, but was kind of looking forward to a first floor laundry if I could swing it. The kitchen is intriguing. I really am trying to mull it over and take my time with this. I say me and I, but it's really we.

Thanks for all your inputs, will mull over, probably too much. :)

There's no such thing as overmulling a kitchen lay out! I worked on my little kitchen for nine months with my cabinet maker. I knew that floor plan inside and out, so there were no unpleasant surprises when the cabinets went in. It's not a perfect kitchen. There will always be concessions, and you have to decide which ones work best for you.

What about kicking the wet bar where those two little closets are near the door in the lower right? It can be very small, still usable and lockable if that's an issue. Company can access it without traipsing through the kitchen.

You still get a big enough laundry room that way, even if you do a completely different kitchen. It's not the only answer mudroom and potty can go into wet bar, laundry stays where mudroom was and is bigger, wet bar goes to tiny closets or shares with new laundry. Big lockable door to former mudroom if needed.

We have to pretend like the area that we have labeled wet bar isn't there. We can't use it now for anything at all. It is a future proposal. Sorry for confusion. We come in from the garage at that angled hall to the mudroom area or can walk through to the patio or into the kitchen.

Bmorepanic - the door in the lower right is actually the front door. There are bedrooms and a bathroom to the right of it. Another bedroom off the great room. Are you meaning move wet bar to the closet behind where you have it proposed now? That's a thought, especially if we can get rid of that small wall completely, but that's a big if right now.

Just thought I'd give an update. I ended up going with buehl's layout #2. Changed a few cabinets around, but basically that layout. I went back and forth for quite a while, but am so excited. All the cabs will be ordered this week. I'm doing a two-tone kitchen with stained black lowers and white uppers. Nothing super fancy, but it will be so awesome. We can't wait!

I took time to really evaluate the way we live and use our kitchen, problems areas, wants/needs, etc. What I found is that a major source of frustration is the sink. So often I am still cooking and the dishwasher is being loaded, it can make me crazy. I am SO happy we are going with a prep sink in the island. I think it will change things quite a bit. I decided to trade some form for function in a few places, but I am happy to do it because it was a huge savings, too. I was able to get many items off Craigslist or my brother (who works for a lumber/building supply distributor). And I did get to do a few really cool things.

Can't wait for this whole remodel to be done soon and get to move in.

Thanks again for all the helpful ideas and answers to questions.