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micheline_smith

Layout help... please!

Micheline Smith
12 years ago

Hello to all talented and hopefully opinionated people in Kitchenland!

My family moved into a new-to-us house last year and we have been trying to figure out the kitchen ever since. It is a 1980's vintage bungalow, 8' ceilings, kitchen at the front, regular old family home that was in need of TLC. We had determined to just clean it up and live here because this might be a temporary location for us (5 years seems to be the time limit my hubs company lets him stay in one place!) but the kitchen was awful and needed more than a paint job. So, in my infinite wisdom I got his sledgehammer and opened up the main living area (no load bearing walls were harmed in the making of this fiasco). Now I could really use some advice.

The pictures below show scale drawings of the main area and our best thought for where to put cabinets and an island. Here are some things we would like in (out of!) the kitchen:

1 cook (with occasional visitors)

30" electric range

no dishwasher

no microwave

large single sink

trash pullout

under counter fridges (36" drawers and 24" fridge)

would like at least 40" (ideally between the sink and stove) for a work surface

eating space for at least 2

minimum storage requirements:

36" lowers drawers for pots and pans

44" upper for dishes

20" upper for spices and baking stuff

20" lower drawers for plastic, salad spinner etc

20" wide cutlery drawer

20" wide utensil drawer

everything else can be in a walk in pantry (looking at making a "secret" one in the nook in the SW corner)

We are very open to any suggestions you might have. We had looked at putting the kitchen in the SW corner of the space because of the access to the deck for grilling etc, but couldn't find a way to make it not feel cramped or like it was taking up the entire space. We are quite handy and there isn't much else in the way of entertainment where we are (or tradespeople either!) so we are probably doing all of the work ourselves, with our 3 and 5 year old boy "helpers" of course. I do a lot of cooking and would like a functional kitchen, but it needn't be grand and I would prefer that it didn't scream kitchen because of its prominence.

Any thoughts you could offer would be gratefully accepted!

Thanks, Micheline

Here is a link that might be useful: layout pictures

Comments (31)

  • bmorepanic
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Its the part with the bay window.

    You might need to post a bump on sunday afternoon.

  • Micheline Smith
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bmorepanic- thanks for the advice

    Here is another picture to show what we have thought might be a workable placement. If anyone sees anything that doesn't look like it would work or can think of a better setup please give a girl some help! I have very thick skin! Thanks.

  • bmorepanic
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maybe this will help get more answers.

    Coupla things. On the sink run, you pretty much gotta allow at least 1.5" up to maybe 3" for filler in that run. The filler is your insurance that your cabinets will fit even if your walls aren't perfectly straight or plumb when both sides are bound by a wall. If you use frameless cabinets, you'll need at least a 3/4" piece at both ends so the drawers won't bind against the walls.

    The island needs to shrink. In essence, its required that one aisle be at least 36" wide at all points, measured from the countertop. Both aisles should be 36", but one of them must be. This allows you to move appliances in or out without having to lift them over the island. The island countertop will be at least 3" wider than the island in both directions.

    I feel I need to say something else. This isn't going to be your forever home and you are set on making a kitchen that will not help your house sell when you're ready. You're making a lot of choices that won't appeal to the average buyer.

    The big bummer with your design for me is that there just isn't enough storage in the kitchen proper, no dishwasher and no easy place to put one. You're selecting a very personal and expensive choice of refrigeration that wouldn't appeal to 99.5% of buyers. Many people have issues with the kitchen being in the front of the house.

    So, that's what I'm thinking about in the below. Don't rely on its being correct - its just a fast sketch of one "what if".

    If you have real freedom to move utilities around, I'd also try sketching using the long wall in the back next to the bedrooms.

  • laxsupermom
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think bmorepanic's advice is spot on. I can see the aesthetic appeal of the minimalist kitchen with undercounter refrigeration, but that's a choice for a forever home or for a home in a location where homes are purchased with the assumption of there being a to the studs remodel(multi-million dollar zip codes where the value is in the land, not the home.) Most buyers in most markets will view not having a space for a typical refrigerator as a major negative.

    I realize bmore's L puts a wall where you've already sledgehammered. Have you considered moving the kitchen to the northwest corner?(by the bedroom hall) It would be close to the sliders for backyard grilling. That front room with the bay window would make for a nice living room.

  • aloha2009
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You must have really hated the kitchen to take a sledgehammer w/o a plan!

    Don't know how it would ultimately look but what if you would move the sink to the corner windows and place the sink at an angle (not my favorite but...). Though you don't want a DW for resale you want a DW. A DW could fit between the sink and bay window while giving additional countertop space.

    The range could be placed where you suggested giving a nice prep area. The FULL size frig could then go where Bmorepaniic's sink is. If you have to rebuild part of the wall it shouldn't be that much.

    Bmorepanic's island looks very functional and pleasing to the eye.

  • laxsupermom
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you moved the kitchen to that northwest corner you'd have more room to put in what you want plus leave room for future owner's preferences. Something like this.

    Plus it'd be more of a straight shot to the secret pantry in the nook which would make more sense in a DR.

  • lisa_a
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I echo bmore's advice. If this isn't your forever home - or even a home you will be in for 10-15 years - designing it to your very specific tastes would be inadvisable as it will hurt you as resale time. Any realtor would tell you that putting in fridge drawers instead of a fridge and going without a DW will mean a hard sell and reduced offers. That's not to say that you have to stifle your preferences completely, only that you need to adjust them to fit the broader audience for now.

    Here's another idea to add to the mix:

    I moved the kitchen to the northwest corner (or at least what I think of as the northwest corner but maybe I'm confused since laxsupermom thinks northwest corner is top right not top left).

    I gave you a hidden pantry in that tiny bump-out area (what is that currently?). You can do cab doors to the pantry that looked like this closed

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/teri-turan-traditional-kitchen-atlanta-phvw-vp~216307)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by atlanta kitchen and bath Teri Turan

    and like this open

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/teri-turan-traditional-kitchen-atlanta-phvw-vp~216308)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by atlanta kitchen and bath Teri Turan

    I added in traditional appliances but went with a CD (counter depth) fridge for a sleeker look. You get the open feel with a long peninsula and island but storage up against the walls to the left.

    The island isn't deep enough to add seating for two. You might be able to add 2 seats to the end of the peninsula - one at the end, one facing into the kitchen. I didn't do this plan in great detail, just wanted to see how it worked out.

    I drew in a table and a buffet, just for grins. One plus of moving the kitchen to that back corner is, as laxsupermom pointed out, that it puts the kitchen close to grilling. Another plus is that the kitchen is no longer front and center when company comes to the door. They enter into living space - LR to left and DR in front of them.

  • Micheline Smith
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bmorepanic
    laxsupermom
    aloha2009
    and lisa_a
    thank you all for taking time to give me advice.

    I agree that not having a plan was not a great idea, not even a good idea... But it is done. Here are a couple of before pictures. I have only taken out the walls in the middle of the house, which really only impacts the fridge and pantry (and my frame of mind ;-)). The cracked tile counter and musty kitchen cupboards are all still in use. But we have taken out the dirty dishwasher and replaced it with a bar fridge and there is a single hot plate on the counter for cooking! Life is good!
    PO real estate pic


    fridge and pantry corner(opposite the stove wall)

    About the only thing I don't think I can do is move the kitchen to the NW corner (by the bedrooms). The basement is finished under that area and I thought it would be a real deal breaker for resale to walk in and have the kitchen be the first thing you see? I was surprised that almost everyone suggested that space...

    We did think the area by the patio doors would be a great placement for the kitchen, but since this might not be our forever home I was really trying to come up with a way to put a functional kitchen in the original space. It could be done sooooo much faster... So that led me to the plan that I posted, which I know is not good for resale. That is why I finally posted asking for help, thanks for confirming that I needed to!

    bmorepanic- thank you for telling me about fillers etc and reminding me that I need to get appliances into the kitchen (I was just allowing for my hips!). I have been reading this forum for awhile now and I guess that other people don't usually forget those things! Would it work to put the fridge someplace that already has a wall behind it and do more of a peninsula like in lisa_a's drawing? That would leave the open feel I like but maybe make the kitchen more functional? If I could leave the plumbing close to the corner windows at the front, then have the fridge along the wall where you have the stove and the stove ?? this is where I get stumped and feel like I am chasing my tail. Apparently my talent is not for kitchen design, but if anyone would like help with a quilt... It isn't that we can't move the plumbing but the closer I can leave the services the easier it will be and the more incentive I have to leave the kitchen at the front.

    aloha2009- I posted the before pics just for you. Sink in the corner- got it! I am fine with the placement here but it is one of those funny 'wing' looking sinks and it is not my favourite for doing dishes, but a straight sink angled in the corner would work for me. There wouldn't be room on the left (bay window side) for a dishwasher (I don't think) but I could leave space for it where it was on the right. It is just a bit awkward because you can't open it while standing at the sink- and that seems to matter.

    laxsupermom- I have a 14' maple countertop that I have been carting around with me and we plan to put some drawers under it along that wall to make a long and low entertainment unit. It would work for a kitchen but I still wonder about the kitchen being right there when you walk in the door. I might not be neat enough...

    lisa-a
    that is the SW corner- my compass was not very well drawn, sorry about the confusion
    the nook is just empty space. the basement stairs go down 5 steps, pause on a 6 foot long landing then turn right and continue 8 steps parallel to the S wall, so that nook is directly above the landing at the bottom of the stairs.
    what you have drawn of the corner by the patio doors is almost exactly what my husband and I have been considering (I even have that pantry image saved in Houzz). I have drawn it over and over- on paper and with tape on the floor. I think I love it but wasn't sure if it would be worth it since it would mean quite a lot of work to move over the plumbing and electrical. And I wasn't sure if it would be OK to take away the snack-in kitchen feature of the house? I know 2 tables is not necessary since you could touch them both from anywhere in this space!

    I have one more scenario to throw into the mix. We need to replace the windows in the bay anyway so what about something like this?

    I found this inspiration photo (link to it below).
    https://www.houzz.com/photos/warmington-north-contemporary-kitchen-seattle-phvw-vp~98735

    I have been obsessing about this for months and don't have a plan, but have the start of 3! I just can't figure out our best course of action for function and resale while maintaining the open feel that I really like. I know no one can decide for me, but I really appreciate you taking the time to help me evaluate the options (and then maybe help me make the best one into a plan!).

    Here is a link that might be useful: [sink in bay window[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/warmington-north-contemporary-kitchen-seattle-phvw-vp~98735)

  • lyfia
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IMHO - If I were looking to buy a house the plan that lisa_a posted is the one that would not throw any odd flags to me about the house and makes the most sense in how the spaces are used.

    The original location and the NW location would both be things that made me pause and unless I could find another house with a better layout it would make me skip the house. Especially with the kitchen already updated as I would feel like I was wasting money to pay for a new kitchen to have to remodel so the flow of the house would work well, unless the house was priced low enough against the competition for it to make sense to remodel it again.

  • lavender_lass
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Far- What if you use your original plan, but put the fridge and range on the back wall...and the sink on the island? Maybe include a few stools for seating, too.

  • kpowers
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    farfromhome, I took a crack at a layout which keeps the kitchen in its same location. I think I got the dimensions pretty close. The only wall I moved was the 30" wall next to the ext door. I don't know if you can move that wall or not, but I took some liberties in assuming you could :) I agree with the others...you need a kitchen with a full sized fridge and DW...so I got those items in as well. Also included the shelves you put in your island in your original drawing. I didn't have luck creating an overhang on the island so you will just need to use your imagination. Hope this helps.

    Sink view:

    Range/fridge wall:

    Full kitchen view:

  • lisa_a
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    kpowers, I like how you straightened out the jog in the cab run that farfromhome's plan has, especially since it puts the DW next to the sink (farfromhome, you may not care but the vast majority of future buyers will want a DW handy to sink). However, that means that the counter at the sink will be 49 1/2" deep. That will make it impossible to open the bay windows without climbing up on the counter. Pity, because turning the L and island as you've drawn them makes the best use of the space.

    It is possible to do a modified version of these two plans by pulling the sink run in farfromhome's plan forward 6"-9" and shifting it to the right. That will make room for the DW to go next to the sink in the shallow inset in the bay window area. The sink won't be centered in the window. Its edge would line up with the side of the center window. I don't think that's a bad solution (but absolute symmetry is not something I worry about). This is roughly what I mean (I did not draw in the island):

    farfromhome, I'm confused by a comment you made earlier about the suggestions to move the kitchen to the NW corner (I totally missed the compass on your plan, d'oh). "I thought it would be a real deal breaker for resale to walk in and have the kitchen be the first thing you see?" Won't keeping your kitchen in its current location result in the same thing? I'm assuming that "company entrance" is the same thing as front door. Whether they look ahead or to their left, wouldn't the kitchen will be the first thing they see when they enter your home? I understand if it needs to stay put because of costs but I don't understand why keeping it in its current location is better, from a first thing you see point of view, than moving it to the NW corner.

  • lyfia
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I do think either current location or NW location are similar in their placements, although if I had to pick one over the other I would pick the NW vs. current location. Best IMO is SW.

    Having the kitchen in its current location makes it feel like the front door is actually the back entrance, and although not unusual to have a back entrance into the kitchen I would not like having my main entrance into it. I'd rather then that it was in the NW corner and viewed more from a distance. Yes it can be seen from the front door, but it is not like somebody is stepping right into the kitchen.

    I'd venture to say that in lots of open floorplans you'll see some part of the kitchen from the front door in general. May not be the full kitchen, but part could be visible.

    In the NW corner it could be possible to put some separation to the view of the entrance and still keep the space visually open. Maybe some columns or in how you place tall cabinets etc. in that line of sight. Or create other focal points such as a turned bookcase on the sides of them so the eye is drawn to that instead of the general kitchen area.

  • lavender_lass
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Far- Can you take out those corner windows? If so, what about the fridge in that corner, the range further down the same wall...and the trash/sink/dishwasher on a half wall, where you took out the old, existing wall? This would give you room for a small prep island and maybe a table and two chairs in the bay. Would this work, in your space?

    As for the dishwasher, if you really don't want one, you should at least include the proper sized cabinet (maybe with pull out shelves) and make it as easy as possible to add a dishwasher, before you sell the house. If you never sell, no problem, but if you do...a dishwasher will be on almost everyone's 'necessity' list. Hope that helps :)

  • kpowers
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Since farfromhome is putting in a new baywindow, she has flexibility to set up the windows, depth etc how she wants if she likes the sink at the window. Below are some pix from houzz that show some variations. If not being able to open the windows is a concern, the new side windows could be casements and the center glass could be fixed. I don't love the corner windows either, maybe just close the one off on the sink side? I hate to take away windows and natural light!

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/cheerful-formality-traditional-kitchen-bridgeport-phvw-vp~163191)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by philadelphia kitchen and bath Superior Woodcraft, Inc.


    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/apron-sink-traditional-kitchen-chicago-phvw-vp~44280)

    [traditional kitchen design[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by chicago kitchen and bath The Kitchen Studio of Glen Ellyn

  • kpowers
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another thought...since the windows are being replaced, maybe do away with the bay window?? Not sure how the changes the exterior however...

  • Micheline Smith
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Again everyone- thank you for the helpful opinions!
    Illness has been rampant in my house but it is nap time :-)

    lyfia- I can be confusing! You really have to be in the house a few feet to see most of the current kitchen (and be turning around a bit). That 30" wall blocks a lot of the sight line for people coming to the door unannounced. If I invite guests I can be in control of the mess I have lying about but it is kids selling stuff door to door and bringing their parents or someone just popping by to drop something off that make me cringe! I agree about the SW corner too, but we are really trying to do this on the cheap. If I can stick with the kitchen in the front I think it would be OK where we are because the real estate market is very strange. It is a small (pop 4000) town way north in the middle of nowhere. When we were looking at houses there were about 15 on the market, 7 that we would consider living in, 2 that we shortlisted by looking at pictures on the internet and then we sent my Mom and MIL to look at them in person to give us the details you can't get online (like smell...). We chose this one because we liked the idea of a bungalow more than a 4 level split and got to see it for the first time the day we closed. The town's future is dependent on the mine staying open (the mill has already closed) so there is a chance we may never sell the house... but I want a functional kitchen. Sorry to be so long winded but just to give a bit more context.

    lavender lass- I think the fridge and stove idea is great and put it in the L shaped plan above. And I will at least put in a 24" cabinet, in my last house I was able to use the dishwasher for storage once I unplugged it! I can't touch the corner windows though- my husband's list included a move in ready house and a garage. He didn't get either. I can't even broach the subject of the bay window shortening/replacement (though they need it) until I have a great plan because he thinks we will need to redo the entire outside of the house to do that. Such opposition from such a patient man!

    kpowers- thank you so much for taking the time to do those renditions! I really like the orientation of the island. I would have drawn it in with seating on the "N" side, but didn't even bother cutting one out because that is not where I would want people to sit. If that were my house I think I would be quite happy. Looks like lots of counter space. An island that doesn't feel cramped. Easy enough plumbing change. The wall must stay though. What is that expression, "Don't poke a bear"...

    lisa_a- I like the shallower recess for the sink. It would make plumbing a lot easier. Is this really a good use of the space? The kitchen gets great light all day and I actually like being in the space. If the window was a little higher (above the counter) it would be even better because it would give much less of a view in from the street. I tried to convince my husband 8 months ago that this is what I wanted but he just keeps seeing the whole outside of the house being hauled away in a dumpster... he would much rather live with a bar fridge! So I have been trying every other scenario I can possibly think of to cram in a fridge, stove and sink. My sister took a stab at it early on and her plan was great, except for the missing fridge...

    Here is line of sight illustration

    Thank you again for all the help- if I could ask a couple of specific questions now.
    What do you think of the L shape at the front of the house?
    How large an island do you think I could get in the space?
    Does anyone know of a side bay window that we might be able to reach to open? (I think our window is called something like a framed in bay, so all 3 windows are installed separately)

  • Micheline Smith
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    those are so pretty
    my sad bay window :(

  • lisa_a
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good thought, kpowers, but that's not a bay window so much as a bay with a window (see far's photo above) so the shape is set since it's doubtful far wants to make structural changes.

    far, if the replacement window also has a fixed center pane and side casements with cranks easily accessible, pulling the sink/DW run out a foot is doable, IMO. Test your reach and see what you think. You still want to be able to reach the sill so that you can clean the counter behind the sink. I have a corner sink with a deep corner behind it (46 1/4" from counter edge to corner) and it's impossible for me to reach the whole distance without climbing on the counter or on a chair to clean it (which is why it doesn't get cleaned as regularly as the areas I can easily reach). Thank goodness I was smart enough to swap out the single hung windows for slider windows, with the opening side closest to sink, when we built or I'd have to climb on the counter every time I wanted to open or close the windows (what a pain!).

    As for island lay-out, how about something like this:

    I placed it 48" from the range/fridge wall (it will be less than that in front of the range and CD fridges. CD fridges, on avg, are 29" deep, not including handles) and 42" from the cab to the right of the sink. I'm intending this to be counter to counter, not cab front to cab front.

    I ended the island before the entry wall so that you should still have at least 42" between that narrow wall and the island corner but that still gives you a 66" long island. You should have close to 48" from the opposite corner and the stairway wall. The island is composed of 27" deep cabs (63" of cab storage) with a 48" wide, 15" seating overhang for your island seating.

    Not sure if someone mentioned this earlier but wanted to say something now since you show your fridge up against the corner. If you're planning on getting a French door fridge, you'll need to pull the fridge away from the corner about 12" (good place for a 12" pantry pull-out cab) so that you can fully open the doors and pull out fridge trays. The other option is to get a single door fridge, hinged on the left (aka left hand door swing). The island will serve as landing space for fridge items for both set-ups, although you could also use the counter to the left of the fridge with a French door fridge (to do that with a left hand door swing, you'd need to close the fridge door first).

  • lisa_a
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Meant to add that you will need to go with counter height windows for the bay. You can't do this plan without doing that. Well, you could and it's suggested for old homes to retain the historic exterior but it's inadvisable for your situation because a sill below the counter would not go over well.

    This will mean filling in the bottom portion of the window space with new framing and siding. Not a big deal, though.

    As for your question about use of space, I think it is. It's certainly a better plan - read, more appealing to future buyers - than your initial plan. Plus it gives you the open feel that you want.

    The other option is bmore's plan, but with a few tweaks to keep the open feel: move the fridge from the top portion of the L to the bottom left side (losing those two windows) and shift the range towards the top part of the run. Move the sink and DW to the right on what will become a peninsula.

    The downside of that plan is that the sink (and possibly dirty dishes) would definitely be on view when company comes to the door.

    I do want to point out that none of the plans that keep your kitchen in its current location provide much storage. This may be okay for you but it will be a negative for future buyers. Since this isn't your forever home and you generally don't stay put long, it's wise to keep mass appeal in mind with your reno.

  • aloha2009
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Farfromhome, what are you thinking of doing?

  • Micheline Smith
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    aloha_2009 thanks for checking up on me!

    I have been taking some time to digest everyone's input and review the layouts. lisa_a drew in a great island (thank you!), but also reminded me to think about storage. So I went back to looking at kitchens and noticed that Bellsmom's kitchen is in an area about the same size as the west side of the house. So I went back to an idea my husband and I had had earlier and even convinced him to help me put some pretend counters in the space! So here are some pics and if anyone would be kind enough to comment it would be much appreciated! Thanks again!

    taken from the hallway to bedrooms:

  • lisa_a
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The drawing isn't dark enough for me to figure out what's what and where. Is that block in the alcove a pantry?

    Why are you opting to go with a quasi-galley lay-out and not an L with an island? I'm not wed to my plan - this is your home, after all - but I'm curious to know the rationale behind your choices.

  • Micheline Smith
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lisa_ sorry it was so faint- hope this is better. I guess I was hoping to keep the kitchen from encroaching too much on the rest of the space. We thought that by carving out space in that end wall it might give the L shape idea with out any pesky corners!

  • lavender_lass
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like it, except for one thing. I've seen kitchens with the island like that...and if you ever plan to add stools, it may be too close to the patio doors. Everyone will want to have a place to perch, but if you do this, make sure you use SAFETY glass, for the patio doors. Better safe than sorry!

    The other option would be to make it a peninsula, coming off what is now the sink/range wall. Maybe move the sink to the peninsula or just keep that area for prep, but it would be nice to have some stools. If you need more space, maybe move the hutch or even use a banquette on that wall, with hutches on each side (yes, I love banquettes) but it would give you plenty of room and more seating.

    If you do this, you could also have a small (3' x 3') island/work table, maybe with a cutting board top. This would give you even more prep space and a place to set things down, when you take them out of the fridge/pantry area. It would also give you easier access to your patio doors. Hope that helps :)

  • lisa_a
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hmmm, still somewhat problematic. You're trying to think outside the box, which I support, but you still need to work within certain parameters. For instance, unless you're purchasing a true built-in fridge or a fridge with a single, right hand swing door, a fridge as you've placed it will be difficult to open. The door will bind against the wall. An easy fix is to pull the fridge forward enough that the door is clear of the wall. The pantry can be deeper so that it sits against the back wall and is flush with the front of the fridge's body (not the door or it will bind the fridge door in the same way the wall would). This will have to be custom made but it can be done.

    You may be okay with a narrower fridge (looks like you're planning on a 30" fridge to be housed inside a 33" wide cab box) but future buyers will be dismayed to learn that their 36" wide fridge won't fit and there's no way to make it fit without losing the pantry cab. Ask your cab maker about adding a removable 6" pull-out pantry cab inside a cab box built to hold a 36" wide fridge.

    I just realized I'm making some assumptions about the size of your home. If this is at least a 3 bedroom, it will almost always be a family home so there will always be certain expectations of what a family home kitchen will include, such as DW, full size fridge, and ample pantry storage. You don't have to do all that but it would be wise to make retrofitting the kitchen easier for future buyers. It will make resale go much more smoothly and get you the biggest return on your remodeling dollars.

    I'll look at this more in a little bit. Dinner's ready!

  • Micheline Smith
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks again to everyone for your advice. I had a wonderful Christmas break with a visit from family (yeah!!) and have a renewed focus. This kitchen design thing is not for me- too few needs to be practical for anyone else! But here goes.

    We will be keeping the kitchen at the front of the house. It gets great light throughout the day, it really doesn't feel like you are walking into the kitchen when you come in the house because the entry way is a decent size, it has been here since the house was built and I guess it will just be easier and faster. Not that moving it wouldn't be the best use of space, but... So here is what we think will work in the existing space.

    I called about building code and we won't have any problems with an electric range in front of the window, also reaching the window mechanisms on the outer windows of the bay will be OK and the center pane is fixed. The plumbing is already in the sink corner (with one of those wing sinks- horrible!) so it will be a really easy switch to an angled corner sink- again not the best but leaves us with better, uninterrupted counter space and the chance to put in 1 upper cabinet. And I may have even ordered an "approved" (ie full-ish size ;)) fridge- my husband will think he has died and gone to heaven when he doesn't have to try to stuff food into a bar fridge any more. We still need to add in the DW and cabinet sizes, but given our requirements, does this seem like a decent working kitchen? Any comments you have would again be appreciated. I still have some time before we resume laying the flooring but once we restart that project we will need to have the design for the kitchen pretty well decided.
    Thanks!

  • bmorepanic
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The island needs to be a bit shorter so it pulls away from the ref door(s). You are showing less than 30" in front of the ref and that is the one place you need more space.

    Last thing before you commit, anytime the sink is in or near a corner - it's one person at a time using the sink or the cabinets immediately beside the sink. The cut back of the sink cabinet doesn't really help with that - allow at least 16" for a standing person and keep anything important out of that zone. A lot of people place the dw and trash right beside the sink but not with corner sinks. Adding a tray cabinet or a narrow drawer cabinet between the dw and the sink makes life a lot better.

    I've never used a sink that was cut back - but they just look annoying to me and also like hip-bumpers. The cut back restricts how far the sink cabinet doors open. It's a little bit more spendy (because of molding/skin purchases) than just using an angled sink base. It's only benefit is that you stand just a little bit closer to the windows.

    If you still don't want a dishwasher, place an 18" or 24" cabinet where one would go (new owner can pull it out and replace with dw).

    Lastly, remember to allow for fillers on both runs. They are your insurance that the cabinets will actually fit when both sides of the run are up against walls. If you are planning on frameless cabinets, they require something called a starter molding on the outside edges to prevent the doors and drawers from binding on the walls.

    You can have a full depth upper cabinet above the ref, too. It's a great place to store bakeware or large pots. If you put doors on your other upper, remember that the one closest to the ref either will not be able to open all the way (runs into the ref) or needs to have its door reversed.

  • aokat15
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    How about having a half wall off of the 68" wall by the stairs that runs to a column even with the 30" wall by the door. You can then put the kitchen in an "L" with the sink looking out into your living space on the half wall. You could have the bay window area be a built-in banquette or eat-in area.

  • Katie S
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh I just love a banquette in a bay! I really think that is a great idea.

  • bmorepanic
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For some reason, the above made me think - you could have a wing on the island that was just sitting surface - counter or table height. Really crappy drawing, but..

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