I did a job for a lady who was ripping her 10 year old JB kitchen out. It looked 30 years old.

Questionable quality. The finishes especially.

Another one of those "you get what you pay for"....very hit or miss quality, but at that price point I am not sure what is the better choice

Are you sure that custom is more expensive? There are many custom cabinetmakers that are moderately priced especially if you are close to the Amish/Mennonite communities. You should definitely price with them as well. I and several others on Gardenweb used Dutchwood in Lancaster County of PA, beautiful inset cabinetry with full customization at a moderate price. If you post looking for custom cabinetmakers in your area you may get a pleasant surprise.

Low price = low quality.

I also wanted to add that if you really cannot tell the difference between Plain and Fancy and Jim Bishop that you need to have someone impartial on your team who can. Maybe an independent ID who can help you with more than just the kitchen project.

It's no shame for a consumer not having that type of discernment, but really, the two are so far apart, that it's really surprising that they would even be considered in the same breath. P&F finishes are top notch, and their quality control is stellar. Their manufacturing tolerances are tight, and the end product is beautiful, because it's functional and attractive. JB----isn't. P&F aren't just one level above, they are several levels above.

She was taking out the 10 year old cabinets because they had worn like garbage. Had nothing to do with "style". That picture of the showplace kitchen that you posted in the other thread is from a very dissatisfied homeowner who has owned them long term. It's easy to find glowing reports of people who have just put a bunch of money into cabinets and are happy with them right away. They have on those expensive rose colored glasses that makes them gloss over the flaws. Ask them again in 5 years, and the irritating uneven clearances of the doors, and the rough patches which weren't sanded properly, the broken and improperly finished hardware, and the just plain peeling paint will not be so rosy anymore.

You have the chance to not make a mistake on the front end. Plain and Fancy is something anyone could be proud of in their kitchen. No, I don't sell them. I only wish I did.

â¢Posted by live_wire_oak (My Page) on
Thu, Dec 4, 14 at 9:40

Low price = low quality.

Please be specific as it relates to Jim Bishop cabinets. What exactly is low quality about Jim Bishop cabinets?

"A man, well, he'll walk right into Hell with both eyes open. But even the Devil can't fool a dog!"

The Twiight Zone Season 3, Episode 19, "The Hunt", Earl Hamner.

We used them in our bathrooms and laundry room. There are several price points in JB cabinets. Ours are the ultimate boxes and custom doors. Some are painted/glazed and some are stained/glazed.

We haven't had any issues with them at all - the hardest used areas are the laundry/pet room and master bath. They were purchased just over 8 years ago, just before they started offering inset doors and Blumotion hardware.

I personally wouldn't buy the least expensive cabinets from any of the lower end companies.

I agree that PF cabinets are a much better (therefore) higher in cost, and it's really like comparing apples to oranges.

@allison0704 thank you for responding, it's nice to hear from someone that actually owns them considering most of the opinions have not been supported with any specifics.

I have been in discussions directly with the factory and they have been very nice and more importantly helpful when it came to answering my questions and responding to my concerns. I like that they are a smallish family owned business and they repeatedly stated they take a lot of pride in their work and product.

Again thank you for providing your real world experience with the JB cabinets.

This post was edited by cssnms on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 13:04

So here is what I learned today... Maybe this will help someone else.

JB sources all of their wood doors from Conestoga and they are solid Birch - PF also gets their doors from Conestoga, but Birch is an upcharge.

JB's now head of finishing use to be the head of finishing at Mouser Cabinets.

JB builds their own cabinet boxes.

JB uses Blum hardware and Aventos lift systems - same as PF

JB's upgraded cabinet box is all plywood - ends/face frames and shelves are 3/4" thick solid, sides and bottom are 1/2" thick plywood. Braced with 1/2" thick plywood I-beam/strut, 3/4" toe board particle board, Cabinet interior is real birch veneer vs PF sides are 1/2", backs 1/4", shelves are 3/4" particle board, 3/4 doweled toe kick, vinyl interior.

JB's ends, tops, & bottoms are dadoed into face frames, glued & stapled. Tops & bottoms are dadoed into ends.
Backs are let into ends. Hanging rails are fastened to ends. Face frames are screw frame assembled vs PF are tongue and dado construction, face frames are 3/4" thick 3" screw rail w/mortise-and-tenon construction, full dust top.

JB's drawers are dovetail, 5/8" thick hardwood sides with 3/16" plywood bottoms vs PF dovetail 5/8" thick sides and 1/4" plywood bottoms.

JB glazed finish includes a semi opaque base coat, a tinted top coat, then glaze, finished off with clear catalyzed top coat.

I used PF as the comparison not only because we looked at them, but because it is a brand held in high regard for its quality and construction.

The difference in face frame construction is what really jumped out at me - obviously mortise and tenon being the most desirable/durable method.

PF is clearly the better built cabinet, as it should be considering the price-point, but I would also contend that on paper, JB appears to offer a lot of value and quality for the price.

This post was edited by cssnms on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 15:08

You're welcome, cssnms. The person that did our JB cabinets ordered two full size sample doors (one stained, one painted) I was considering for the kitchen. But I went with a cabinetmaker since I was dead set on getting inset cabinets in an unfitted style. Maybe you can see samples or get door samples as well.

Allison - we also want inset doors (shaker style) w/a glaze finish and would only consider the JB premium box. Our KD placed an order for 2 door samples in the finish that we want. JB is also pricing out a custom double vanity for one of our bathrooms. I think I am also going to request to see one of their upgraded boxes before we commit to anything.

PF came in at a $6k premium for just the kitchen, not including the bath vanities, which doesn't sound like a lot but our budget is going to be maxed out on this project - whole house renovation, so every $ counts.

We are also considering calling Jacob at Oxford Cabinets in PA. We could probably get custom made, solid wood cabinets from Jacob for less than JB. Only problem is, being Amish and not having a phone, I suspect he probably doesn't take credit credits :) In which case considering we are doing a construction loan we would have to front the cash - something I would prefer not to do.

This post was edited by cssnms on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 15:36

I thought I was clear as to what I did not care for.

Birch is a lower priced, soft wood. Hard maple is the preferred wood for paint. Or maple with MDF center panels. While they get their doors from Conestoga, the face frames and boxes are constructed on site. That leaves matching issues many times when doing a stained finish. It also leaves the clearances between doors and face frames inconsistent . At least, that has been my experience.

The finish itself is what I found the most sub par. It's not smooth. It's not sanded well. Especially the crossgrain areas. There is not consistent coverage on the door edges and drawer edges. There are holidays and translucent coverages there.

I had the opportunity when opening my showroom to add any cabinet brands that I wanted to. I went with Dynasty for inset for several reasons. I did consider JB briefly for their price point, but there are other builder cabinets out there that are cheaper for full overlay. It's not acceptable quality for my customers who want inset. Inset customers aren't putting in builder quality kitchens. It's a mismatch in the value.

You sound as though you've made up your mind though, so I'll wish you luck.

Made up our minds? no. Considering options, yes.

And my experience when reviewing their finishes was not consistent with yours', at least with the painted/glazed finishes. The painted finishes were quite nice actually. And before you imply again that I do not have discerning eye for quality; I have procured more than my fare share of custom/hand-made furniture pieces for my home from custom furniture makers like Bucks County, Shaker Shopp, and the like, so I am versed more then your avg joe when it comes to examining/owning quality furniture pieces. And yes, I have solicited proposals from both Bucks County and Shaker Shopp as well as Robert S White to name a few. - we know Tom the owner of the Shaker Shopp very well, we are good customers.

Unfortunately given the resources that we have at our disposal for this project they do not lend themselves to going with a top/upper tier custom cabinet builder. We want inset doors and certainly JB fills a niche at a certain price point. If we can find an alternative that provides better quality, offering finishes and a style that meet our needs at a competitive price we will certainly consider that option.

Birch is actually regarded as an EXCELLENT paint-grade wood and while it might be at a lower price-point compared to hard maple, that by no means is indicative of a low quality paint-grade wood. Not surprisingly birch is an upcharge for many cabinet manufacturers including PF. Yes hard maple is arguably one of the best paint grade woods, but then again who said I was looking for the very 'best?' If that were the case, I would not be considering JB??? I am looking for the best for the $'s. Birch while a step down from hard maple is considered a better paint grade wood than alder, ash, poplar, pine and soft maple.

JB constructs the boxes at their facility and finishes the doors and boxes together, so there is no issue with matching stains/paint colors.

In any event, not everyone can afford the 'best' kitchen cabinet, but I appreciate your thoughts on the matter nevertheless.

This post was edited by cssnms on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 17:31

Have you seen the Dutchwood cabinets? They are in Lancaster county and do beautifully crafted inset fully customized cabinets at a moderate price point. I just posted my cabinet installation but there are at least five or six Dutchwood kitchens on this website. Dutchwood does phone and email and are very easy to work with. I considered Oxford but it was so much easier with Dutchwood.

Yes, I have considered Dutchwood as well. I hear they are extremely busy thanks to GW w/long lei times, but I have not called them.

We briefly explored the possibility of Oxford Cabinets - an Amish cabinet maker in PA, but for the reasons mentioned above and some of the logistical challenges this probably would not work.

Yes, we considered Dutchwood as well. I hear they are extremely busy thanks to GW w/long lei times, but I have not called them. Maybe I will call them. Do you know if they take credit cards? :)

We briefly explored the possibility of Oxford Cabinets - an Amish cabinet maker in PA, but for the reasons mentioned above and some of the logistical challenges this probably would not work.

This post was edited by cssnms on Thu, Dec 11, 14 at 17:42

Any additional information/reviews about Jim Bishop cabinets would be much appreciated...

I have Jim Bishop cabinets. In the first 12 months of wear I had many problems. 1) Finish wearing off around knobs. Looks like they are 20 years old. Poor quality finish. 2) Pantry closet (which wasn't cheap) split in half. 3) drawer under sink split in half 4) faded cabinet doors within 3 years. I complained early on... finally, a JB rep came to my house. He promised some repair. He never returned or called. Finally spoke with someone from JB who told me it was too late to do anything. AND... the wear and tear was my fault.

I can't believe that the finish would wear off in the first year and that be my fault. Poor quality and poor customer service.

Eventually I will have to replace the kitchen because of the worn out appearance. VERY DISAPPOINTED.

Looking for feedback on Oxford cabinets and dutchwood

C&N did you end up going with JB cabinets? Or what did you end up going with? Thank you!

STAY AWAY FROM JIM BISHOP. POOR product and quality and horrible customer service! If you have a choice, make another choice. Ask your professional to find another product. Jim Bishop is more focused on providing service to your contractor and not you. The commission to contractors, will be at your expensive. STAY AWAY!

We just installed Bishop cabinets. We have had them for two months. I would not recommend. The finish scratches very easily. There were two cabinet doors that had major defects in them. Our contractor has had replacements sent twice and both times the replacements were badly damaged and had to be sent back. Waiting for a third replacement now. Should not be that difficult to ship an undamaged product, IMHO.

Our 18 year old Jim Bishop cherry cabinets have held up very well. They look almost brand new.