Just to be clear:

1. The cabinet installers didn't level the bases in 3 directions
2. The granite fabricator didn't check for level before templating
3. The granite people installed your tops anyway when they discovered the bases were not level. (They must have noticed!)
4. Something triggered the decision to remove the granite and level the bases after the fact.
5. The seam was damaged during removal/re-install.
6. Now things are somewhat out of whack, although I suspect the not-90 degree cut by the stove was there from the beginning.

It's hard to know where to begin. The only person not at fault here is you. Did you by any chance use a kitchen company who arranged for the various tradesmen? If so, they should make this right. Did you hire your own GC and he/she supervised this? If so, s/he needs to make this right. Someone may offer you a percentage off the job and you'll need to decide if that incentive is enough to make you decide to ignore the problems. I'm assuming the seam can be made better. This is a tough call. Personally, I'd want a re-do on the granite.

Yes, the Cabinet shop used their installers ( subcontractors ) .

I'm going to ask the Cabinet shop owner for a Redo on the base cabinets by the stove and a New Granite Top. If not, I will have to try small claims court. The Granite people should have made the stove opening correct with their template, though the stove was not in place. Though I believe they should have check the levelness of the base cabinets and also measured the stove opening. Their Template guy just made his template and he was on his way.
Oh, in regards to your #4 response, there was about 1/2 inch high spot where the seam was. Then they returned to level the base cabinets, though they may not be 100% level as there is still about 1/4inch high spot in center of sink, though not noticeable. What really gets me is the stove will have to sit crooked to compensate for the bad install. If you stand back, you can clearly see the stove is not in the middle of the opening. ! Thx for your response.

Where is the GC in all of this?

GC people are willing to remove and shave off edge of seam for a better seam, though he said NO New top ! So, he is in with the Cabinet shop as the Cab Shop recommended him... I don't know what to do other then small claims as this is total B S ! Hire someone to do a job and NOTHING is done correctly. All they want is the $ $ $ ....

Before actually filing in small claims court, I would send them a lawyer's letter - that may well have the desired effect. If that fails, you could try filing a complaint with the licensing board for contractors. Serious threats often bring results. The problem with going to small claims court is that although lawyers are not required some states allow them and if your GC/Cabinet shop show up with a lawyer and you don't, they may well get preferential treatment. Of course, depending the amount of money involved, you may well want your own lawyer. I assume it goes without saying, but at this point you shouldn't give them another dime.

So sorry for your troubles, this is sickening and disheartening. I would also make sure to leave a bad review with the Better Business Bureau.

FYI: this is a from the Marble Institute of America pdf for consumers regarding industry standards for installation of natural stone counters:

4. CABINET AND SUBSTRATE REQUIREMENTS
Cabinets and any trim that affects the overall size of the stone countertops must be permanently installed in their final position prior to field measuring for countertops.
Measurement Tolerances. Top surfaces of the stone cabinets must be within 1/8" (3 mm) of flat and level when measured across a distance of 10'- 0" (3 m).

Wall surfaces to receive stone backsplashes must be plumb and within 1/8" (3 mm) of a true plane when measured across a distance of 10'- 0" (3 m). When cabinets are not within these tolerances, you (or your Authorized Representative), will be asked for permission to proceed with the installation....

Your original problem is that the cabinet installation was substandard and, really, rank amateur. This was compounded by the granite installers failing their due diligence. The most straightforward fix at this point is to expect a complete re-do on the counter. These guys all holding hands have mutual fault in the current situation and can figure out the financials among themselves.

Here is a link that might be useful: MIA

So often here we have professionals encouraging the use of general contractors as a means to ensuring that problems will fall to the GC instead of the homeowner. And then we see posts like this where the homeowner is still left holding the bag while the GC, the kitchen designer, and the GC's subs wash their hands of any problems.

What gives the GC the right to say "NO" to new countertops when he dropped the ball on proper installation? Has he already been paid in full for this job?

Everyone thinks installing cabinets is easy. It is easy if you know and follow the rules. The cabinets must be installed level, plumb, and in plane with each other no matter what the walls and floor are doing.

dave7126, you can't just have a 1/4" high spot near your sink, noticeable or not. You're setting yourself up for future granite failure, I promise.

Too many times countertop guys get the blame for cabinet installation failure. That may be what's going on here.

Everyone thinks installing cabinets is easy. It is easy if you know and follow the rules. The cabinets must be installed level, plumb, and in plane with each other no matter what the walls and floor are doing.

dave7126, you can't just have a 1/4" high spot near your sink, noticeable or not. You're setting yourself up for future granite failure, I promise.

Too many times countertop guys get the blame for cabinet installation failure. That may be what's going on here.

I hope you've got pictures?

"Too many times countertop guys get the blame for cabinet installation failure. That may be what's going on here."

If countertop guys go ahead and install the counters on top of out-of-whack cabinets, shouldn't they be held partly responsible? Personally, I think the GC should be getting the blame here, for not making sure the cabinets were good to go before having the countertop guys come in, and for washing his hands of the problem after the fact. The buck has to stop somewhere, and when you have a GC, that's where it should stop. That the homeowner even has to be concerned with these problems is ridiculous.

"Personally, I think the GC should be getting the blame here, for not making sure the cabinets were good to go before having the countertop guys come in, and for washing his hands of the problem after the fact"

Totally agree with this statement, depending on the relationship the GC had with this whole mess...there are too many unknowns in this story for me to form a solid opinion or offer a suggestion

The GC is ultimately responsible. The granite company should not have installed the stone on problematic cabinets. The GC should make the granite company remove the stone at their expense, the cabinet people should reinstall cabinets at their expense and the stone properly reinstalled or replaced at stone company's expense. If none of the companies will cooperate, the GC has the responsibility to make it right. He can sue the subcontractors.

Legally, if a contractor proceeds with their work over substrates that are not correct they have accepted responsibility for the outcome. The GC should deal with it.

Precisely!

The stone people should have refused to move forward.

None of these people, none, were doing their jobs.

And then they will raise prices to make their own ends meet!

"Where is the GC in all of this?"

I'm tired of hearing this. You don't need a GC to replace your cabinets and counter. That is ridiculous and total BS. And we see again how absentee they often are, especially on these simple jobs. Nothing more than overhead. You're better off looking after things yourself, probably are anyway, because you are the only one who really cares.

As far as small claims, you do NOT need to waste more money on a lawyer! Take CLEAR descriptive pictures and be organized in your presentation. I did SC once, the other guy had a lawyer. There was no contest. As soon as those pictures came out, even his lawyer was looking at him, WT? This isn't the OJ trial. If you need to, you can get another professional witness (pay for their time) or affidavit to support what can't be shown in pictures. I did both.

Try the letter first though. That can be very effective when they know they're wrong.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Mon, Dec 15, 14 at 21:36

Treb,
Should the cabinets be level plumb and in plane wherever one choses to check them? If not, where must they be checked? Thanks.

"you could try filing a complaint with the licensing board for contractors"

you should definitely file one if they don't fix it at their expense. Whichever is responsible and refuses.

I'd be calling the RoC asap about all of them. I'd want the info at my fingertips...

Don't leave their record clean to screw up a remodel job for someone else.

Did you check the registrar of contractors for these contractors before using them? You should ALWAYS do that.

Wow, Thanks to all for all of the information ! I agree that the C Top people dropped the ball 1st on the Template, Then prior to Install !

2nd, Yes, the Install was Sub Standard ! And Cabinet shop owner said they'd been installing for 20 yrs ? They must have installed many cabinets where others did not care on how they looked or sat in position ?

I will contact the licensing board for contractors and ROC.

Thanks again for all the replies.

"Should the cabinets be level plumb and in plane wherever one choses to check them? If not, where must they be checked?"

practigal:

You should be able to set a level anywhere and in any direction to get reasonable accuracy. Perfection is a waste of time, because the thickness of many stones vary and have to be slightly shimmed anyway.

One of the most important places to check is over openings for dishwashers and stoves. Place a 4' level in an "X" over the openings. I've seen guys make perfectly level cabinets on each side, but not level to each other. This is where you check that they're still on plane to each other too.

I have to recheck my own jobs if I've been gone a day or two. I had a floor guy pull one of my leveled cabinets so he wouldn't have to cut floor tile around it and reinstall it. I was dumbfounded as to how a cabinet could magically raise itself 1/4" until I figured out what had happened. I could have missed it, installed the top, and collected, but the tile backsplash guy would have been totally screwed. In this particular case, that guy was me.

" You don't need a GC to replace your cabinets and counter. That is ridiculous and total BS. And we see again how absentee they often are, especially on these simple jobs. Nothing more than overhead. You're better off looking after things yourself, probably are anyway, because you are the only one who really cares."

I'm tired of hearing this; it's potentially very bad advice. When you hire your own subs you really don't know how reliable they are. A GC has weeded them out for you. When the job derails, you're just one job to the sub and he can probably afford to take the beating if you don't pay him. He cannot afford to lose the $100,000.00 dollars worth of work the GC throws his way every year. GC's have leverage over subs that a homeowner can only dream of. Who coordinates the electrical work between the electrician, cabinet man, countertop/backsplash installer? How'd you like to come home to find these three all pointing their fingers at one another and nothing done? Or worse yet, something done that is done wrong or backwards and someone fairly needs to be paid to undo?

Yeah, GC charges are "ridiculous and total BS". Uh huh.

Here's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. The cabinet man set the 6' x 6' "L" island perfectly level and in the right place. The countertop man made tops that fit perfectly. The problem? According to local code, the island needs an electrical outlet and there is none.

The only solution is to have 6 guys come over, pick up the island, drill the polished concrete floor, have a plumber blast for a conduit under the concrete, have the electrician fish a wire from under the island to the wall near the fridge, have the 6 guys move the island back, and have the electrician finish up.

Should the homeowner whine to the cabinet and countertop man? They did exactly what they were hired to do. Should they be expected to hire 6 guys twice because the homeowner/GC didn't know the local code? Of course not. And that makes me mad because I'm all 6 people; the picture is of my kitchen.

"When you hire your own subs you really don't know how reliable they are. A GC has weeded them out for you. When the job derails, you're just one job to the sub and he can probably afford to take the beating if you don't pay him. He cannot afford to lose the $100,000.00 dollars worth of work the GC throws his way every year. GC's have leverage over subs that a homeowner can only dream of. Who coordinates the electrical work between the electrician, cabinet man, countertop/backsplash installer? How'd you like to come home to find these three all pointing their fingers at one another and nothing done? Or worse yet, something done that is done wrong or backwards and someone fairly needs to be paid to undo?

Yeah, GC charges are "ridiculous and total BS". Uh huh."

Trebruchet, what you describe is how it's supposed to work, theoretically. It has not been my experience, which is why I do not agree with the Incessant advice here that a gc will solve everyone's problems,. Good workmanship, to code, appropriate tools, materials and technique, no fingerpointing, taking responsibility for problems, etc. Right. In our dreams.

I actually think the private contractors have been more inclined to fix a problem or tend to details than when there is a boss managing the job and fixated on his company's bottom line, rushing to juggle projects, skimping to save nickels, and sending in the cheapest untrained labor he can find. You are just one little customer that he can blow off. Bam boom onto the next job.

Needing a gc for replacing cabinets and a counter? Total overkill. They would probably not even be interested and think you are a helpless idiot. Not a good position to be in.

Of course there are great ones out there, no doubt, but they are busy with large successful projects and out of many if not most people's league.

Unfortunately, there are too many stories here of GC's that don't step up to the plate, don't require quality work from their subs, don't share the same views with the homeowner as to asthetics and quality workmanship, and leave homeowners trying to resolve the resulting problems on their own, as is the case here with this OP's GC. The OP says that his cabinets are a mess, his countertops are a mess, and all of this happened under the GC's nose. The GC thinks it's good to go. And the OP is now left on his/her own to try to figure out how to solve the problem. What good is that "leverage over subs" to this OP? From the looks of things, this GC didn't do a very good job of weeding out the subs for the homeowner.

For those defending the value of a GC for a job like this what exactly has the OP gotten out of his GC in this situation other than a CYA half-wit?

Clearly some jobs reguire/could benefit greatly from a GC while others would not. In addition not all GC are equally professional and competent. for a job like this without anything structural or even any electrical, plumbing or mechanical work to speak of a GC is pretty worthless.

As with all things Caveat emptor.

As to the OP situation:
The first thing I would do is remind them that there is this thing called the internet and that chatter on this thing called the internet can make or break their business's reputation and if they do not do right by you that will be forced to go full on blast public about their shoddy workmanship and terrible customer service.

If they still won't correct the issue then I would go the letter threatening legal action.

If that fails then yes on to small claims court.

I am a fabricator.

We measure multiple jobs every day. A competent measure person knows most of the ways a cabinet install can be screwed up and looks for them. Many require some type of compromise in the countertop dimensions.

Examples:
the cabinets on either side of a stove opening are not parallel in the plane perpendicular to the wall

the cabinets fronts are not in the same plane parallel to the wall

the cabinet section fronts are skewed relative to each other

the cabinet heights vary by more than 1/8".

the cabinet frames are out of square.

all of these conditions occur all the time. We have a handful of customers that use a projecting laser to set the cabinets. Those cabinet installs are perfect and make the measure and countertop install a joy.

The final dimensions of the countertops is often a compromise between what the countertops could be and what they have to be to mask the various inconsistencies in the cabinet install. This can get touchy for the granite guy since it usually does one sub little good to point out the flaws in another subs work.

my 2 cents.

GC, no GC, there is no singular answer.

Scenario #1: A retired couple with nothing better to do than research the heck out of every aspect of the project. These people will be home when trades need to come in, there is no critical timeline, they have lived in the community for years and know people. (This is us and we designed and installed our own cabinets, but hired out the plumbing, electrical, granite, and floors to professionals. )

Scenario #2: A working couple/single person who works 40-60 hours a week plus commute and has no experience with codes or the necessary tradespersons. Can't be home to wait for someone who'll show up between 1 and 4, and completion time is an issue.

Clearly the needs of each party are different. The OP likely falls into the second category. He gets props for recognizing he has a problem and trying to define and fix it.

This doesn't sound as though an actual GC was being used.

"I had Cabinets installed." "the Cabinet shop used their installers ( subcontractors )"

It sounds as though the OP contracted with a local shop for new cabinets and countertops, and no other work. Not a contractor. Which muddies things considerably, unless someone at the shop actually holds a GC licence under which the shop operates.

OP, who was your contract with? Are they actually licensed and insured contractors? Were they responsible for all general aspects of the job, like plumbing and electrical, or just the cabinet and counter install? What was the scope of work?

So a store or shop, company, overseeing installs is somehow not responsible for their work?

If the cabinet company subbed out the work to their installers then they are acting as GC on the job. The OP specifically mentioned a GC ("GC people are willing to remove and shave off edge of seam for a better seam, though he said NO New top.")

"the cabinets on either side of a stove opening are not parallel in the plane perpendicular to the wall"

This looks to be exactly what's wrong with the OP's picture. The countertop templater made the top follow the cabinet instead of making the stove opening perpendicular to the rear wall.

Jeesh, no one is saying that the professionals aren't responsible for doing a professional job. Just that, depending on the scope, and how the contract was worded, that there could be some miscommunication here. That is all. Just trying to trace the trail of whom hired whom, and for what.

That's what great about the internet, no true trail to follow. Remember there are three sides to every story.......

I don't see how the consumer can be even partially responsible for the install problems.

I agree that if homeowners are considered to be a gc if they hire someone themselves, then the same should hold true for a store or company that does not actually have a gc license. Not sure what exactly that means or why it matters and muddies things. They are managing the sale and installation, so are responsible, as any gc would be, to know the drill and deliver.

Update,

Stopped in and talked with Cabinet shop owner about imperfections and how things have went. Even he said " I don't know why the installed can't get it right ? Also he offered new doors and drawer fronts to resolve imperfection. + he offered 30% off, Or he'd come and get his Cabinets and 100% refund. There already installed, though I'll have to wait and see if they can actually straighten up the bases. If not, I'll go with the EZ Level system W Laser Level for the base's and Do it myself ! For all the inconvenience and problems, I'll accept the discount as I like the look of the cabinets.

As for the Granite guy he could make the piece on the L of the stove work by bringing the corner out towards the stove a little, as I will do a ceramic back splash later. However he may prefer to come and get his Granite and 100% refund. We'll see.

It sounds like they are willing to work with you to get it right! I hope you can fix it without completely starting over.