Shop Products
Houzz Logo Print
nels1678

Original 1966 Kitchen/Living Room Remodel Ideas

nels1678
9 years ago

Hi Guys,

This is my first time posting to Gardenweb, so I apologize in advance if I'm violating any posting protocol. My wife and I just bought a vintage 1966 house that has almost entirely original decor from when it was built. We decided it was probably in need of some updates, starting out with the kitchen/dining/living room!

I'm sure like many folks we've oscillated back and forth on everything from cabinet color to flooring material. I think we've decided that we want to keep things fairly light, open, and airy. There is a lot of tree cover and large eaves over the windows, so in the summer it actually is currently a fairly dark space (hoping skylights will help).

Just looking for some very general thoughts/comments right now on what we've got and what we are thinking of doing. Nothing is set in stone yet, So we have a lot of flexibility. Total space is roughly 34x25'. Kitchen is currently on the south side. North side windows overlook a nice looking pond and the view is probably worth highlighting. Roof is truss construction with 2' between trusses. Already had a structural engineer come out to verify that we can knock down walls and put skylights in-between the trusses without issue (well, maybe some slight bowing of the trusses. We already have a couple of ceiling cracks and he warned we might have to patch the ceiling after a couple of years if we remove the interior kitchen wall, but doing so is structurally fine).

Current remodel design has the kitchen about 16' long with a 58" isle between the back counter and the island. Island is a little over 12' long and 42" wide. Right now the plan is to go induction cooktop, microwave drawer, and drawer storage in the island. Along the back wall, an oven (and maybe speed oven?), sink, counter, and counter-depth fridge. Thinking birch/maple cabinets, stranded bamboo floors, quartz countertop. Still mulling over things like backsplash, pendant lighting color, furniture color, etc. Thoughts?

Comments (61)

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Ok guys,

    This may not be 100% accurate, but should be pretty close. I sat down and mapped out the existing kitchen based on some measurements I had taken previously. I think it's probably right to within a couple of inches, but you can hopefully get the rough idea. I wanted to look at traffic flows and kitchen triangle in both the current setup and in the proposed new setup that I have. Some basic assumptions:

    1) People will try to go the shortest path to something unless the way is blocked.
    2) People will only choose an alternate path if they can visually see that the other way is blocked. They may not know when they start.
    3) People not actively cooking in the kitchen tend to gravitate toward the following appliances ordered by frequency (guess based on the habits of our children):

    a) Fridge
    b) Sink
    c) Microwave

    Based on this I tried to guess as to what kind of traffic flows we would normally see through and around each kitchen.

    Current Kitchen:

    Usage of the fridge (or the broom closet) will block any traffic flow from the left side into the kitchen. Alternative is to go around the other way, but this isn't visible until you can see the fridge is open and the alternate path is quite long. Sink access and stove/oven access overlaps and dishwasher access sits right in the middle of the food prep area. A child standing at the sink (currently on a step stool!) will interfere both with food preparation and potentially cooking/baking. More importantly there is no real kitchen triangle as the fridge is off by itself around the corner from the stove/oven. On the plus side the current kitchen has significant cabinet space.

    Proposed Kitchen:

    I think this kitchen will have much better traffic flow. The microwave, Fridge, and sink will be closer to and more accessible from the living and dining area. Traffic is only impeded if the fridge and Microwave (or sink and stove) are being used simultaneously by 2 people, and traffic congestion can be visually seen immediately from the entire room. This layout keeps food preparation at the other end of the kitchen in it's own space. The kitchen triangle is maintained and each leg is within 4-9 feet. The primary downside of this layout as I see it is the lack of upper cabinet space.

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    practigal:

    Thanks for the comments! I really appreciate it as I was starting to think everyone hated the idea of opening the space up. :)

    Answers to questions:

    1) Environmental: We are up in Minnesota, so there are interesting trade-offs here. There are 3 very large trees in front of the house and moderate shade coverage over the roof (enough to make solar a no-go), so in the summer the roof and skylights will be partially shaded. The hope is we can get enough light in to brighten things up while not causing an excessive amount of extra heat load. During the winter, insulation will be a big deal, but potentially the direct sunlight could be a win. Our current house has 4 skylights in an attic master bedroom suite so we've at least got some general ideas of what the costs/benefits are like.

    Regarding your other questions, I marked up the overhead view with some general comments. Hope these help!

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    oh, regarding the trusses: If it turns out that leaving the trusses alone or stiffening the trusses isn't attractive, we could just put in posts on each side of the island and a microlam beam roughly where the wall is now. Not my favorite option but it'd be easy to do (basement is open and there's a steel i-beam right there supporting the floor joists).

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    I would definitely move the dining table to the Kidzone and the Kidzone to where the dining table is so that the kids are by the porch which I would think they spend their entire summer going back-and-forth out to the porch and it would cut down on the wear and tear on the rest of the house if they were close to where they wanted to be anyway.

    If darkness is such a problem in the room, you may want to add an entire wall of mirror to the wall between the current Kidzone and the pantry storage library area.

    You may want to consider putting the skylight down the center of the room that way it brings in lots of light and divides the space without actually using walls....something to consider if the second story is not over this part of the house.

    Something to consider with respect to the seats at the island. Note that they are all shown as very low back. This is to avoid having the back of the chair hit the new granite countertop as one of them will come away damaged. But this kind of chair, without a full back and with no arms, is not very comfortable. You may really want to think about that if you really want people to sit at the island.

    You will find tons of inspiration photos if you look up "mid century modern kitchen with skylights" on Google images

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago

    My understanding is that skylights will lose a lot of heat, especially in a cold climate like Minnesota's. You also might want to check about condensation dripping off of them in the winter to see if that can be dealt with.

    We built an extremely energy efficient house, and DH was really hostile that I wanted to put in four 10"d SunTunnels to get light into the kitchen (which has a porch in front of it), the stairs, and a 2nd floor bath with no window, because of the heat loss during the winter.

    Anne

  • lee676
    9 years ago

    I kinda like the blue-green shag carpeting, but I'm probably the only one....

    I think your basic design here is a good one - removing the kitchen wall to create an open concept kitchen/dining/living room area with no clear delineations between them, which is what I tried to accomplish with a recent renovation of a mid-century house. I think it's possible to do this and still retain an appearance that's sympathetic to the design of the house. Of course almost no mid-century houses actually had an open layout of this sort when they were built, but that's because people live differently now than they did in the 1950s/60s. Back then there weren't many frozen foods and every day someone would spend hours preparing food in the kitchen and cleaning up afterward, and this was usually done in a small closed-up kitchen that you didn't want your guests to see because the cabinets and appliances weren't all that attractive. Guests would be served in a formal dining room. Today, kitchens are designed to be look good and be seen by guests, food preparation and cleanup is often quicker, and many of us want to eat in the nicest dining area all the time, not just on special occasions, and it's nice if you can see the 60" screen in the living room from the table (sometimes, anyway). So while I wouldn't want to do something that clashes with the architecture, I don't feel I'm disturbing the mid-century aesthetic by updating the layout to suit today's lifestyles.

    The cabinets that are there now look quite nice; if you don't reuse them in the basement or such, do try to give them away rather than send them to the dumpster. Likewise the Hobart/Kitchenaid dishwasher - those things are indestructible.

    May I ask what software you're using to make visualize the proposed layouts? I mistook it for a photo at first. These home design apps are getting amazingly good.

  • mgmum
    9 years ago

    I won't be any help but I will say check out Schicksal's kitchen. It's an open concept MCM and it's GORGEOUS! It is open concept similar to what you're looking for and it is a galley style with a long island, similar to what you're thinking of doing.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Schicksal's kitchen

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    From what I can see of the photots....Lee676 is correct about the cabinets and dishwasher. Perhaps you may be able to put new doors on the existing cabinets or reuse them elsewhere and, if on closer inspection, the dishwasher still looks good and works well you could use a 3M product-di-noc appliance wrap-to change the front to match your new kitchen...

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Guys,

    Thanks for all of the suggestions!

    Practigal:

    I'll have to think carefully about the dining room / kids zone idea. I'm a little worried that it would make the kitchen a major walkway between the kid's bedrooms and play area, though perhaps it already will be with the porch door right there. Things to think about.

    Anne:

    Heat loss is definitely a concern! There are vacuum insulated skylights coming out "any day now" that provide up to R10, but it looks like they still haven't hit the market. Wasco makes a triple-pane low-e that has an R-factor around 3ish but that's still nothing like what a well insulated roof can do. On the flip side we'll have fairly good solar heat gain in the winter (and less solar gain in the summer due to leaves filling in) so I think it won't be as bad as it may seem at first glance. AFAIK solar tubes tend not to lose as much heat but they aren't for us.

    Lee:

    We actually kind of like the blue shag carpeting too! It's seen it's better days though. It's heavily worn in places and the original owner of the house no longer was able to take care of it well as she got older so it was quite dirty when we got there. Thanks for the support, I really appreciate it! I hadn't really thought the new layout was disrespectful to the bones of the house either, especially with how poorly the current kitchen is laid out. Do you have any pictures of your new kitchen? The software I used is called "SweetHome3D" and is free. It's java based so it will run on several different platforms including Linux which is what I use. To get the high quality lighting (ie global illumination) you need to change the java invocation for the program by adding a couple of flags:

    -Dcom.eteks.sweethome3d.j3d.PhotoRenderer.highQuality.globalIllumination=path
    -Dcom.eteks.sweethome3d.j3d.PhotoRenderer.highQuality.diffusedBounces=4

    This tells the program to use path tracing when high quality is selected and to allow up to 4 bounces of light off surfaces to provide ambient lighting. This dramatically slows down image rendering (several hours on a fast system), but I think the result is worth it. Having said that, there are definitely some deficiencies in how this program handles specular, diffuse, and BRDF surfaces compared to other lighting simulation software out there.

    MGMum:

    I saw that thread last night! It looks like Schicksal's layout is surprisingly close to ours, but with the sink in the island and cooktop on the back wall. That makes me optimistic that our layout isn't totally crazy. :)

    Here is a link that might be useful: SweetHome3D

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    Your renderings are great. Thanks for sharing about SweetHome3D. Will be downloading that.

    I think the reason why I have a somewhat negative, kneejerk response to your floorplan is because the space is so big and being totally open seems cavernous to me. More like a public space than a private one.

    I also would be concerned about noises and echoing in such a big space. It might make for quite a noisy living space. Particularly if it includes a play space for the kids.

    I think it was a great call to share Shicksal's amazing remodel. Isn't that place grand? While the kitchen floorplan shares similarities to your plan, it isn't totally open and does have some half-walls and column separations. Of course, this is a subjective matter but I really think that you'll like the finished space better and it will be more true to MCM-style if you plan for some minimal separation from the main living space as well. I really don't like the block look and full walls of your current kitchen. That's why I mentioned a pass-through or something. But you can certainly make it more open as Shicksal did but still have some separation. I don't have any clever specifics to share but I think it's something you might want to play around with.

    Have you considered moving the kitchen to a different area of the room? Maybe in the area you've marked as "library/alternate living area/kids playzone" in your drawings. If you use that one space marked pantry as a pantry area, this puts your kitchen right next to the pantry. It also gets your kitchen out the traffic zone. Yes, this will add extra expense but it might be worth it. I would turn the kitchen so you could have upper-lower cabinets on the wall that backs up to the pantry and the large island facing the living space. No cabinets on the side so the large windows are enjoyed in the kitchen as well and no cabinets block those windows.

    I love your cabinets. If they're in good condition, you could save some costs of moving the kitchen by reusing the cabinets.

    I agree that if you don't re-purpose them somehow in your own home that you should donate them to a Habitat ReStore or at least sell them. They're too cool for the landfill.

  • mudhouse_gw
    9 years ago

    I'm enjoying this thread as we also have a 1965 house, and we are working on ideas for changes to the kitchen walls.

    Just a heads up, if the original cabinets are what they call site-built or stick-built, it's not really possible to remove and donate them for reuse (well, except for the doors and drawers.)

    This is how the cabinets are made in our own 1965 kitchen, and I'm thinking these might be too, because of the photo showing the slide outs in the lower cabinet. I think I can see a bit of blue sheetrock on the back of the inside cabinets (???) which could indicate they're not built as boxes you can remove to reuse or donate.

    In our house, when you open the cabinets, you're looking at sheetrock. No wooden back wall. Reconfiguring cabinets like these is very difficult (some would say it's not sensible to even try.) Pretty much when you take them apart, you have a pile of long continuous shelves, sides, some front pieces, and the doors.

    Wish I had those lower slide outs in mine, though! I am hoping to do some modifications to include something similar.

    I will enjoy watching your progress, so I hope you will keep us posted!

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago

    I don't think I have any specific comments regarding the kitchen, but I do have some regarding the general layout of the space. I love open floor plans, at least in theory. However, there are times that, in practice, they can be overwhelming. Kids playing, the noise of kitchen equipment like blenders, coffee grinders, mixers, the rattling of pot and pan lids, even chopping veggies on a glass cutting board can be noise overload. With all of that wide open space, those sounds are really going to be amplified. Are you truly comfortable with that? How about adding a t.v., a stereo, or worse, one person wanting to watch a show while another wants to have music on while prepping supper? And another wants to have a phone conversation or even talk to a person at the table? It can quickly become a cacophony!

    Does this home have in it somewhere what is called an "away space"? This is a quiet spot where a person can get their thoughts together, have a little privacy, or it can even become a "noise container" for a television or stereo that will not interrupt the folks in the larger space. Without this, you may quickly tire of the home and each other!

    If you are not familiar with Sarah Susanka's Not So Big House books, I strongly suggest you spend some highly pleasurable hours reading her materials. Many libraries have her books in their collections. Her writings will help you immensely in planning your whole house layout. She is the one who introduced me to the idea of the "away space", and it is something I have found most necessary as our family grows and gets older.

    Have fun with your planning. It's an exciting project! : )

    Here is a link that might be useful: Sarah Susanka's books on Amazon

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago

    Sorry, didn't mean to touch a nerve about your plans. :)

    But, look at the original home without emotional attachment. It's all about flat straight lines, and segmented rectangles. The "kitchen box" works as a design element precisely because it's a big box. Long and low. Like 60's furniture. Like the house itself. Just guessing since you say it's split level, but I'd bet it's a series of long low rectangles stacked with some overlapping. Love those houses!

    The most successful open plan spaces have more volume to work with. They have more ceiling height. They then use furniture placement to delineate function. Your house doesn't have the ceiling height, so taking away walls will emphasize the 8' ceilings. A long room with a low ceiling has a much different feel than the same square footage with a 10' ceiling. With the walls removed, you've removed the items that give the space a proportionate feeling. The kitchen feels cozy because it's an enclosed volume, with a lower ceiling. The living room does the same. Take down the wall between the two, and the added length takes cozy and turns it into kinda oppressive. The ceiling presses down on you a bit.

    The functions of the different rooms need to be divided by some type of architecture. Not just furniture. In new builds, you see a lot of coffered ceilings and faux beams. Totally unsuitable for this home. In Colonials, you see a lot of columns and cased openings. Totally unsuitable for this home.

    MCM is about natural materials, and the honesty of construction. The first suggestion that I would make is to talk to the engineer about vaulting the ceiling, and doing some type of natural covering for it. Wood worked in the old MCMs well for that because they loved carpeted floors. The contrast between the two worked, but doesn't work nearly as well with wood floors. It decends into wood overload. Maybe some type of whitewashed bamboo, or textile looking panels could work. It needs to be textural though. You'll need to do spray foam insulation to get the R value up enough, and you won't see the actual roof rafters because of the insulation needed. But, the additional volume will help to make the more open floor plan work better, and feel more proportionate.

    The second suggestion that I would make is to create some type of iron beam and post as the architectural separation of the spaces. Not just the kitchen space. The dining space too. That allows you to have open sightlines, but the honesty of the exposed materials works with the home's style.

    The third suggestion that I would make is to emulate what you have currently. Not shaker. Shaker is ubiquitous. Overused. Inappropriate. Slab doors are what this house needs. Bamboo, natural maple, or maybe birch like many MCM homes used to use. One of the more exotic looking "reconstituted" woods to look like teak or rosewood would also be great looking and very MCM.

    The fourth suggestion I would...

  • lee676
    9 years ago

    That speed oven/microwave/whatever over the main oven in the Berkeley Architects kitchen looks out of reach to non-NBA players.

    I have some nice photos I'll post when I have more time

  • Jillius
    9 years ago

    I like architecture and architectural integrity probably more than the next guy, but for what it's worth, I think your current kitchen seems totally unpleasant to be in -- a dark little prison box. Your proposed layout would certainly be a vast improvement on that. Is it the perfect expression of architectural imagination and character? Nope. Is it better? Yep.

    Yeah, some things in the kitchen (stove, sink, etc.) need moving around, and it all probably could be better from an architectural stand point, but opening things up at all, in anyway, and adding natural light at all, in anyway, is an improvement. I just cannot believe that anybody giving you a hard time would rather cook in the original kitchen than the one you proposed.

    It's like how everybody knows corsets are necessary to proper Victorian silhouette, and there may be beauty and elegance in true period costume, but seriously, who in heck actually wants to wear a corset? (Probably the same people who prefer cooking in prison boxes.)

    And furthermore, while the best MCM architecture is totally my jam, I would argue that this particular expression of it -- the random box in a middle of a larger room -- was not particularly elegant or lovely even back then. Just because it was made in an older time doesn't mean it was awesome. They still do random boxes in larger rooms in modern apartments today, and they always look awkward. It's hard to imagine people 50 years from now talking about the stylistic integrity of those.

    I'm all for creating an awesome MCM kitchen, but maybe find your architectural inspiration from an authentic MCM house that didn't have a kitchen in a box. And seriously don't feel bad about taking architecturally liberties that make the space more pleasant to be in.

    I do think vaulting the ceiling would be wonderful and a very smart investment. That is the kind of detail that sells houses, AND it's true to this house's architecture, AND it would make this space more pleasant to be in in terms of not pressing down on you and feeling light and airy. That is a win-win-win.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago

    Niggling in my brain was a house that I had seen redone that reminds me of your plans. I was able to find it again. : ) I see a lot of similarities between your "befores" and their "befores." You can see the pictures of what this couple did at their "Housetweaking" blog.

    Here is a link that might be useful: House Tweaking: The kitchen

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi All,

    Thanks for excellent feeback everyone! live_wire_oak: you did hit a bit of a nerve, but it's OK. I'd rather have honesty than accolades. :)

    Regarding noise: This is a concern certainly. Part of the reason we were thinking of turning that other space into a library was to provide a quiet space to (try to) escape to. Other than that there is the 3 season porch, an office, and a basement family room (this needs to be refinished though). I suspect we'll want to get quiet appliances. Having said that, the children tend to follow us around our current house (especially the kitchen!) so escape is merely an illusion. ;) I'm sure when they are teenagers we'll end up missing it.

    Moving the Kitchen:

    So this is a possibility. On the northeast side of the 34x25 space (lower left corner in this picture, ie kids play zone) there is easy access to sewer and hot/cold water. We could move the entire kitchen there and then move the living space into the space on the right near the 3 season porch. We've kind of explored that idea and I think we decided it wasn't the right way to go, but I'd be open to examining it again (or other layouts). The library/storage area is actually about 3-4 feet lower than the living space (ie ground floor, near the mudroom and garage) so it's not usable for the kitchen.

    Vaulting the Roof:

    In a perfect world I would *love* to do this. Vaulted wood ceilings are one of my favorite features. I think it would be a pretty major project though. The trusses are 2x4 construction and 24" on center, so leaving them as is would be very busy for that kind of span. We could re-engineer the roof to use fewer trusses and/or different kinds of trusses, but that would be a pretty major expense. We'd also need to figure out what to do with the aftermarket HVAC that was installed. (AC in the attic above the bedrooms. Primary duct runs roughly down hallway/stairs and continues down the middle of the 34x25' space with branch points for each vent.

    Some of the motivation for the skylights was not only to provide natural light, but a hint of the feeling of having a vaulted ceiling (at least in the kitchen) without redoing the trusses.

    Regarding Cabinets:

    I'm not especially tied to what's in the renderings. These were just stock cabinets they had available in the program I was using and I wanted to get the overall layout right first. Having said that my wife did say she likes shaker at the store so there may be some negotiation involved here. I'd be game to go with flat/slab doors and thin/long stainless steel handles. We're generally thinking birch or maple to keep things light and stranded bamboo for the floors for the hardness and moisture/humidity resistance (again light to help with the summer darkness).

    FWIW, here's a view of the front of the house to get an idea of the overall style. The house is situated on a hill from the street down to a flat grassy area where the pond is. ...

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago

    Glad you weren't permanently scarred by my comments. ;) I just want anyone undertaking such an expensive and permanent home alteration to explore every avenue so that they get the best outcome. That's what is great about this forum! Lot's of ideas that you may not have thought of on your own.

    To vault a ceiling in a conventionally stick built home merely involves adding a ridge beam, and point support for it. Not complicated at all, except for the insulation requirements. To vault one with truss construction is more complex, but not bad either. I've seen it done with I beam construction replacing the trusses, and then a ridge beam to carry the load, again with point load posts. I think it would be worth talking to the engineer about the project. :) Especially if you're handy enough to contribute some labor to the project to lower costs. Demolition can be therapeutically fun! You could also do a half vault for the living area, with the kitchen left at the 8', so that the mechanicals could run over the ceiling there. With a good HVAC guy on board to design the ductwork, you could probably have the skylights in the kitchen area and the taller ceilings in the living area both.

    I would caution against bamboo floors in most instances, unless you live in a pretty arid climate. They are not as moisture resistant as advertised, even if you climb above the basement level quality LL mostly formaldehyde glue stuff. We've had them down in our showroom here for 2 years, and have relief cut them twice to try to eliminate the cupping. And this is a top quality brand in the $8 a square range. Of course, we have a lot of humidity to deal with here, so that's why I say that an arid location could have better performance.

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Ok, I spent some time this morning reading up on vaulting ceilings with roof trusses. Here's the feeling I'm getting as far as options go:

    1) pull off the whole roof and put whatever in.

    Pros: more or less straightforward, get exactly what you want.
    Cons: expensive!

    2) Build a traditional stick roof in place next to the existing trusses, put in a ridge with posts. Cut out existing trusses. possibly add insulation on top of the existing roof to get 8+".

    Pros: full ceiling height, don't have to remove existing roof.
    Cons: post placement, insulation tricks, HVAC?, material costs, etc.

    3) sister scissor trusses in next to current trusses. Either join two half trusses and install from below or come in from the top. Cut out existing trusses.

    Pros: more room for insulation and maybe even HVAC in the center. Maybe can install without removing existing roof. Maybe cheaper?

    Cons: half vault height (~10ft?). More complicated?

    So far I'm getting the feeling that modifying the trusses in place is more hassle than it's worth vs building new or sistering. I'll email our structural engineer and see what he's got to say. It'd be really cool to vault the space, but I'm pretty concerned about the expense. On the plus side the shingles are pretty old and will need to be replaced in the next 5-6 years anyway so maybe in the long term it's not quite as bad as I worry it could be.

    Mark

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago

    There could be another roof-raising option that you did not list. DH raised a roof about 10 years ago and this is the basics of how he did it: He built "knee walls" to fill in the missing height that we wanted to raise the roof (about 14" if I'm remembering right). He then detached the roof from the structure and carefully jacked it up. He then placed the "knee walls" on top of the existing walls. Once they were secured, he lowered the roof onto the "knee walls" and reattached everything. He also did similarly, turning a ranch into a raised ranch, with 54" or so tall knee walls between the basement blocks and the walls of the original ranch.

    If you want more details, I can have him explain it more thoroughly and accurately than I just did.

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    laughable:

    Wow, that's crazy! doesn't that basically create a hinge where the wall wants buckle? I would have assumed you would need to sister in new studs or maybe sheath the wall in plywood to prevent that.

    Mark

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    Have you looked into this product: kalwall light translucent panels
    I think their insulation value is R13 and can be increased to R20 with some loss of light transmission.
    The link below has photos of it and other brands in action.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Eye candy skylights

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago

    He re sheathed the building and used lots and lots of fasteners per engineer specs. Whole houses are jacked up and moved to new locations, so lifting in place wasn't such a stretch. : )

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Guys,

    Wanted to give a short update.

    I talked to our structural engineer a bit about vaulting the ceiling. He thought that it would certainly be possible and might not be a terrible idea if we are planning on replacing the roof shingles and removing that interior wall anyway. He's typically seen this done in the past by sistering in scissor trusses. Talked to my Realtor (a family friend) about it too and he thought it would cost more than it's worth, especially if we used scissor trusses and only gained ~2 ft in the middle.

    I went over to the house and just studied the space and then spent some time this weekend looking at MCM designs. What would you guys think about leaving the 8 ft ceiling height, but going with light wood planks over the existing drywall? I've seen some non-vaulted MCM ceilings that go this route and it looks pretty nice. This would also solve another problem I have where the kitchen ceiling is smooth while the living room ceiling is perlite. This would make increasing the natural light even more important though.

    While I was looking for MCM design pictures I also came across a kitchen that sort of looks like what we were thinking (slightly different layout and no windows/skylights though). Thoughts?

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    I like it...but I would like it a lot more with windows and skylights:-)

  • Pipdog
    9 years ago

    The slab cabinets are an improvement over the shaker style ones, but that kitchen falls flat for me. And it doesn't seem right for your space.

    If you can swing it, I would live in the home before you embark on any major floor plan changes. Living with the home as is will give you the benefit of knowing how the home functions, how you use the spaces, and the amount of light that the rooms receive. Living in the home will allow you to absorb the essential character of the home. You may decide that you don't need those skylights if you remove the kitchen wall and replace the dark carpeting.

    We're in a MCM and are moving the location of our small, dark u-shaped kitchen to another location to create an open concept space. We've lived in the home over a year before making any major structural changes, only doing some cosmetic work (painting, replacement of the flooring, etc) before we moved in. Had we bought the home and started making structural changes before moving in, we likely would have made a lot of decisions that we would have regretted down the road.

    This post was edited by pipdog on Mon, Jan 5, 15 at 1:20

  • Jillius
    9 years ago

    Do you have a picture of the light wood planks you have in mind?

    I'm afraid I don't think the example kitchen looks particularly mid century. It looks like a normal Ikea kitchen with Nexus doors.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    I agree with pipdog that living in a home for awhile generally gives you a better perspective on what works, what doesn't, and can result in better decisions. We're just now getting serious about work on our home after 4 years here. Yeah, it took us that long and we're still tweaking our ideas. But I know I would have made major mistakes if I'd jumped in sooner.

    Yeah, it's a pain to live in a home during a remodel, especially a kitchen, and especially when you have small children. Nevertheless, I would suggest that you consider putting in a small snack/bar type kitchen in your basement rec room area (you did say you have one, right? I'm too lazy to scroll up and re-read). This would give you a temporary kitchen when you remodel later after living with it for awhile.

    Not all mid-century homes had exposed wood ceilings. It may be a great look and, yes, if you tear down the kitchen walls you will probably want the same ceiling throughout. Although I have seen open concepts where an area like the kitchen has a different ceiling to distinguish it from the other spaces.

    Oh, my...decisions, decisions. Whatever you do, don't overdo and price yourself out of the neighborhood so talking to your realtor, and maybe a few more so you get more than one opinion, was a good idea.

    I wish I had some answers for you. Good places to find pictures of MCM homes are at Atomic Ranch (they also have a fabulous print magazine) and RetroRenovation. Although the latter tends toward what they call mid-century modest moreso than modern but it might still give you some good ideas. Especially if you look at the section on "time capsule homes".

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    So I'd love to live in the home for a while first, but there are a couple of constraints that make it difficult:

    1) Wife wants this done NOW. :)
    2) The old carpeting there is/was very dirty and a couple of us have dust-mite allergies. I went through and vacuumed several times and have been running air purifiers non-stop which has helped considerably, but I think I'll need to have at least the carpeting ripped out before I can move my family in. If we wait a year we'd need some kind of intermediate solution.

    pipdog/jillius: Any thoughts on what you would change to make it less ikea like? I've seen a lot of MCM with darker slab cabinets, but I really want to make sure we aren't going to regret that.

    Jillius: Included some example pics of what appears to be 8 ft wood ceilings in modernish designs.

    Love this loook but it needs the floor to ceiling windows (which we can't/don't have) and nice brick (which I might try to replicate if we do a fireplace):
    {{gwi:2141328}}

    Maybe more realistic idea of a wood ceiling with smaller windows (minus the concrete and bed):
    {{gwi:2141329}}

    Ceiling has a slight vault and is darker, but windows are closer to what we have:
    {{gwi:2141330}}

    Kitchen view:
    {{gwi:2141331}}

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago

    I'm totally in love with those white slab cabinets. Not to mention the red heels and green dress combo. That would be a perfect look to keep things light and bright. Notice how that lets a wood floor and ceiling work together If the cabinets were wood also, you'd slip into a wood overload coma.

  • Pipdog
    9 years ago

    The planked ceilings are more often seen in post and beam MCMs like Eichlers and Cliff Mays. I fear they might feel too heavy in your split level MCM without floor to ceiling windows or vaulted ceilings, even with white cabinets and light floors.

    I understand your wife's desire to begin the remodel now. But this is often how mistakes happen. If you can resist the urge to get this done now, you will likely have a better outcome as you get a feel for your home and research MCM design. We also wanted our kitchen remodeled ASAP and it was hard to move from a completely renovated home into a home with original kitchens and baths from 1957 -- our dishwasher doesn't work, our cabinets are falling off the hinges, one bathroom is completely non-functional due to plumbing issues and our roof leaks (thankfully we live in a place where it never rains). But in the end it has been worth it as it allowed us the time to plan a better design, interview a bunch of architects that were familiar with MCM design and get a real feel for this home which we did not have prior to living in it.

    Is there a way you can remove the carpet and replace with something inexpensive while you put together a plan?

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    Depending on what's under the carpet, you may not need to replace at all. We just pulled up carpet and living/dining/entry have the original plywood subfloors that are such superior plywood to anything used today (house built in 1949) that we are temporarily painting them until we get other work done first to give us time to decide wht we want (we're leaning cork). But the big, happy surprise was finding that the kitchen, laundry, hallway, main bath and one bedroom have the most wonderful, original linoleum in extremely good condition. We're thrilled.

    One of the happy discoveries is how much warmer our house is even with just the plywood floors (instead of ugly pink, yes, pink! carpet). But we get a lot of sun so it heats the wood up and it feels wonderful. If you put in skylights, you might enjoy that, too.

    Over the years, I have known of many remodeling projects that people rushed into upon purchase and, later, regret some of their decisions. We did it ourselves once. So please have a serious conversation with your wife about this. Not only will it give you time to live in the house and get a better feel for it but it will also give you time to carefully consider any decisions you are making. Never remodel in haste.

    If you do plank your ceiling, make it lighter woods. I don't think an 8-foot ceiling can handle any beams, even if they are painted white. I agree that if you do wood ceilings, your kitchen should not be wood.

  • Pipdog
    9 years ago

    funkycamper,

    friends of ours have a MCM with a cork floor which has faded and yellowed from sunlight. It looks pretty bad only 2 years after it was installed. They contacted the manufacturer of the cork floor about a year after it was installed, who said that the fading was "normal" and recommended they move their furniture/rugs every 3-6 months and/or cover their windows with curtains to limit the amount of sunlight. The owners installed UV protection on their windows, but that didn't protect the floors from fading. Wood floors and carpet can obviously fade too, but cork seems to have a real issue with prolonged sun exposure.

    We steered away from cork because our house gets a lot of direct sunlight. Just thought I'd throw that out there since you mentioned your house also gets a lot of sun. If you don't mind the fading, cork is a great looking material.

    Here is a link that might be useful: cork floor fading

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    Thanks for that tip, pipdog. I'm aware of that but am surprised it happened so quickly for your friends. Did they get a darker cork? I have a lot of wood walls, mostly blonde walls but the main living area where I currently just have the plywood floors are where the prior owners stained the wood quite dark. So I would probably go for a very light cork. I suspect fading would be less of an issue then? Something to think about, right? And another good reason to not rush into anything.

    I'm currently playing with painting faux-cork on our plywood floors. I'm still just working on scrap plywood to get my technique down but it looks pretty darn good. If the entire area looks as good as my test pieces when done, we might just stay with that and then put the money for the cork floors into buying nicer quality area rugs.

  • Pipdog
    9 years ago

    Theirs was a mid-tone cork, not dark. But they get a lot of direct sunlight which is why it happened so quickly.

    Perhaps with a lighter color you could avoid some of the fading. If you go down the cork road, I'd request or buy a large sample, cut it in half and sit half of it in a direct sun spot in your home for a while to see if there's a difference.

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    funkycamper: Wow, I really never considered pulling the carpet up and living with just the subfloor. I was planning on pulling up the carpet myself anyway, so perhaps I should just do it and see how it looks. Regarding the cork, you should definitely get a sample now and stick it in the sunniest place in your home with half of it covered by a newspaper or something. It'd be a real shame to have it fade like that!

    So I want to be really careful about suggesting the "living there" option. This whole experience is stressing my wife out more than I think she expected. I'm still enjoying it, but I'm kind of OCD and enjoy having millions of choices available to me. When I look at the house I see an (almost) blank canvas that I can paint in so many different and interesting ways. At this point when she looks at it she sees the physical embodiment of stress and just wants it over. :)

    FWIW, I keep coming back to that first wood ceiling picture I posted. I really love that look.

  • Cloud Swift
    9 years ago

    My son and his wife remodeled their home before they moved in a year ago and they are very happy that they did. The remodeling was mostly to remove the wall between the small living room and dining room and open the kitchen to that space to make it all one open "public" space. It was their second home so they had a pretty good idea of what would work for them and are very happy that they remodeled before they moved their family in.

    I don't see opening the kitchen to the rest of the room as being contrary to MCM. Around here I've seen mid-century homes where the kitchen is mostly or fully open to other living areas. In the 1970's MCM home that another of my sons bought, the kitchen is one wall with a table height island except that there is a floor to ceiling cabinet at one end of the island so that it is semi open.

    Here is our vintage 1975 kitchen before our remodel started.

    I guess it wasn't totally open in that there were upper cabinets over the island but I don't consider that a plus. (The cabinet color is very similar to the brown in Mark's kitchen and several of the other MCM era kitchens that have been shown in this thread but no one is suggesting that they need to stay true to that detail of the era.)

    It has the dreaded 8' ceilings too and we didn't raise them. The in our house living room does have a vault, but the rest of the house is all 8'.

    Here's the space after the remodel - in our case, we were pretty happy with the layout, so the overall layout is very similar except for removing the cabinets over the island.

    Horror of horros! We unathentically used Shaker doors instead of the more authentic hardware-less self pull, slab front cabinets. After 20 years of living with slab fronts we were tired of them and wanted a bit more interest to the surface. The house may never forgive us but we like it a lot better and still feel it has a clean line that goes with the house - especially since the fussy (but authentic) soffits are gone.

    Looking toward the breakfast area:

    Looking from the kitchen to the family room:

    And looking the other way with the furniture in the room: (The cabinets on the family room wall are furniture not built in. We selected a non-fussy raised panel design for their doors because we didn't want them to look like the kitchen cabinets.)

    ...

  • Cloud Swift
    9 years ago

    I think your drawing shows something like 10-12 feet of skylights above the kitchen aisle. That seems like overkill on skylights. I can understand that you want to bring more light in, but much of the time you are in the kitchen (especially during winter that far north) it will be night time anyway. It seems like it would be better to keep the skylight area more moderate and make sure to put in good lighting that will make the area light at night. With all that skylight area, it isn't clear where the kitchen lights will go - the pendants won't be enough.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    i agree with cloud_swift. Skylights are great but you will need lighting at night and need to provide appropriate space for that.

    If your sub-floors are good enough to live with for awhile, you might have an issue we don't. I believe you have livable rooms under your living space, correct? If you use those lower rooms a lot, you may have too much noise from above. Of course, if it's temporary that might not be a big deal but it might not work for a permanent solution. Under our Living/Entry/Dining areas are part of the the garage, furnace room, and crawl space, so that's not an issue for us.

    I still think you might want to consider a more semi-open plan. I like the idea of a bank of storage cabinets in your kitchen on an L closest to your entry door. The extra storage is always handy. And I'm one that doesn't really like an entry where someone can see into the entire house. I think it's nice to have something separating your entry for some additional privacy. There's no need for the UPS/FedEx or pizza delivery person to be able to scope out your whole living space. Just something else to consider.

    We all have different capacities for living in the chaos of remodeling. For me, the stress of having to make quick decisions prior to moving in so the work can get done timely is much worse than the stress of living in the middle of a torn up house. Heck, I've been ruminating on my kitchen remodel for the four years we've lived here, putting serious work into it for the six months, and I'm still tweaking and readying a second idea for review by GWebbers. (My first idea was soundly thrashed, lol.) If I had to rush it, I would have always been second-guessing my design.

    Your wife may feel the opposite. And that's OK. You just probably don't want to be in a position where you have to spend more money later to fix things you realized were mistakes. But, then again, you might luck out and not make any mistakes.

  • Cloud Swift
    9 years ago

    I also thought about suggesting an L with a wall making a short hallway where the stairs up come into the space - it would mean decreasing the island length to around 6 or 7 feet depending on how wide you want the short aisle to be but it could increase the storage space. Also it would keep people from choosing the path through the kitchen as the shortest path between entering and the porch. It keeps the space largely open but defines the kitchen more.

    But since the entry is lower than the living area, the kitchen cabinets will block most of the view from the door into the living area so the wall plus island plan still has reasonable privacy from the house entry.

    15" isn't much of a separation between those seated at the counter and the cooking surface. You might consider making the island 48 inches deep so that there is a 24" deep counter area behind the cooktop. The induction cooktop won't get hot, but the pots still will.

  • Cloud Swift
    9 years ago

    Another idea for defining the space and adding some storage while leaving it mostly open. Have a walls on the North East corner of the kitchen (24" on the East side and 30" on the West side - perhaps by leaving the existing wall there if it is in the right spot or building new small walls if it isn't.)

    Either do a full height pantry cabinet in the corner (opposite where you have the ovens) or move the ovens to that corner and continue base and upper cabinets where the oven is now.

    The island becomes a peninsula attached to this wall (with the front of the island even with the corner cabinet and the seating side extending beyond the wall. My son's house has this kind of arrangement except the refrigerator is in the corner with the walls, but I think for your kitchen it makes more sense to leave the fridge near the dining table.

  • carolmka
    9 years ago

    I know I am coming to the conversation late. I live in the Chicago area in a neighborhood of split levels. I moved from ceilings of 9 plus feet to 7 1/2 to 8 feet. Our house has 4 levels too. I don't see as a big problem if you open up the floorplan on that level because you still have 3 more levels. This is not a ranch. I think doing work right away is okay and I would be inclined to bring it to the studs ( never though I would say that). Our subdivision is about the same age and was built pre-energy crisis, insulation sucks. We have gradually been remodeling and always find unexpected surprises. As a side note, we moved in with the existing carpet and pulled out one month later, full of pet issues. Had to move all of my furniture out after one month so I could refinish floors. PSS I have 'We' Cork floors in my family room and have had zero fading problems. They have proven to be more durable than my red oak floors but I like my red oak floors too. Frankly with the wrong windows/light I have had wood floors fade too.

  • Cloud Swift
    9 years ago

    What about the space between the bedroom stairs and entry stairs? It looks like it's at least 3 foot wide. Could a framed in pantry closet or pantry cabinets go there?

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Guys,

    Long time no post. :) We've been quite busy! We replaced the boiler (a rather harrowing experience), talked to a well known MCM architect here in Minnesota, visited various cabinet construction facilities (got a tour of the shop!), visited Ikea to see the new sektion line, visited flooring stores, etc.

    In the mean time I've been thinking about some of the advise I've gotten here and from the architect we talked to and tried to make some modifications to the original design. I sort of like it, but it didn't pass the wife test. She likes the stacked stone look, and in some ways likes that the upstairs is more closed off, but doesn't like how it segments the living room away and is afraid it might make it too dark (I think that might actually be nice for viewing the TV, but oh well). She liked the original design better in that regard, so it's probably back to the drawing board. Figured I'd post it here though in case anyone had any thoughts.

    Other things we are kind of generally gravitating toward after visiting cabinet/flooring shops:

    - Rift sawn white oak or quarter-sawn maple slab cabinets. Probably horizontal grain. (yes, the picture shows shaker, that's just what the program has available)

    - strand woven eucalyptus flooring. Worried about cupping with humidity, need to find out how stable it really is. Also concerned about ability to refinish in 5-10 years. Not particularly green if you have to replace it all! Alternatives might be doing quarter/rift sawn oak or maple (should be very stable) like the cabinets. Costs a lot more though.

    - Want to integrate some stacked stone or long tile. There's a MCM house we almost bought (so close!) that had an entryway we loved with long pieces of mixed height ledgstone or stacked stone. Trying to see if we can integrate something like that into the design.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    I actually really like that. Can you give us a view from the kitchen to the other areas, and from the doorway in the stone wall?

    Sounds like you've been doing your homework. While it may be frustrating when you want to get things done to move in, the time now is well-spent to ensure you make the right changes. Best of luck!

  • desertsteph
    9 years ago

    No layout to work from yet?

  • jan_in_davis
    9 years ago

    I just saw this thread today and it makes me feel really old! The pictures of the way the house is now remind me of the Eichler my family lived in for a year when I was about 15 - kitchen was a galley with a hallway behind it and the living/dining room in front - pass through on that wall. I don't remember much else :-).
    Then as I read more of the thread I realized that the "modern" house I built (well, had built) in 1968 probably qualifies as MCM, and I kept smiling as I realized that yes, it was a split level and it had a galley kitchen with a pass-through to the dining room (I remember being so impressed with the cabinets we put there with sliding doors on the dining room side so you could put dishes in from the kitchen and take them out from the dining room to set the table). And we had wood ceilings, with a serious slope over the living room and master bedroom and flat over the den and dining room.
    Only lived in the house for about 4 years, and I often think of going back and asking the current owners if I can look at it again - so much of me went into it, but then maybe it's been changed through the years. I planted little redwood trees which are now probably almost giants.
    Anyway, this is completely off topic, sorry - what I wanted to say was I think opening up that space is a great idea and will make it much friendlier to live in. Having a kitchen that's open to the living area makes both cooking and living better!

  • nels1678
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    FunkyCamper:

    Last night I rendered a view from where the stairs are on the other side of that wall looking into the kitchen and through that door in the stone wall. It's a little rough as I didn't spend a lot of time getting the details right. Probably something would have to change with the cabinet over the fridge and the microwave is in a bad place right now. Unfortunately the stone is just a texture on the surface and not a full bump map so it doesn't look that great close up. Part of me wonders if it would be better to just have the tile/stone on the living room side of that wall. meh.

    Assuming this program can be trusted to do accurate lighting (which it probably shouldn't be), the living room looks pretty dark when the kitchen has semi-normal looking exposure. That's probably the biggest thing that's make it fail the wife test right now.

  • funkycamper
    9 years ago

    It's hard to say what the light will really do. I would imagine there are days where you will be flooded with light from the skylights and others, not so much. Which directions do the windows face? If south, I think you'll be getting more light through the windows than the program shows; if north, again, not so much.

    And I'm sure you'll be getting more light at mid-day than that program shows as well. I've never had skylights but that would make sense, wouldn't it?

    It looks like there is a lack of windows in the opposite corner from this view. Is it possible to add windows there? To be honest, I'd probably want more windows there regardless of whether you put stone in the entry or not. Depending on the sun's orientation in your area and which direction those rooms face, you might get more light from windows than from skylights. Or better light? Or just more openness?

    Is the house in a location where you can have all the windows fully uncovered during the day and still have the privacy you would want?

    I don't know since I don't know what the light is like there. Something to think about.

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    This looks great. I love the skylights and really like how that staircase quit standing out dilly snd dead center in the room.

Sponsored
Bull Run Kitchen and Bath
Average rating: 4.9 out of 5 stars271 Reviews
Virginia's Top Rated Kitchen & Bath Renovation Firm I Best of Houzz