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laughablemoments

Mom of 6 needs kitchen planning insights

laughablemoments
13 years ago

Hello and thank you all in advance for your help. I have been gleaning as much as possible while lurking, lurking, and lurking some more. I'm excited, and a bit nervous, to be asking you for some insight into what kind of kitchen will best fit our family's needs. Here is our floorplan (you can ignore the writing off to the left. It's my cheat sheet of all the things that need to be stored.)



We are living in a DIY fixer upper house. There are 8 of us so far, my DH, myself, DD 10, DD 8, DD 6, DS 5, DD 3 and DD 1. Phew! : ) We've gotten the kitchen started on our own. (Wish we'd known about GW 2 years ago.) But, we'll just have to jump in from here.

I'm wondering where to go from what we have now. The windows and exterior doors are set. (Groan, I know, I know, we should have consulted earlier. Please forgive us.) The heat runs are not movable. There are posts (1840's post and beam house) that must be left alone. We have two sinks already installed, which works pretty well for us. We often use both sinks at once, for prep, hand-washing, cleanup, you name it.

I originally planned to set up a baking center under the big window between the stove and sink. Here's set back #1. While I somewhat like this spot to work, I usually have little helpers. Wonderful! Except. . . they want to sit on the counter to see what's going on (grrrr, not to mention safety issues), or, they are carrying stools over to help. The stools block the drawers and cupboards, land on my feet (ouch!), or gouge the cupboards on the way to the floor (bad, very bad.) Also, when I work here, my back is to everyone in the house. It's good in the summer when all my little ones are playing in the back yard, not so good in the winter.



I've set up a peninsula with a folding table to give that a whirl. I think I like it. Now my helpers can be directed to work across from me (YAY!) rather than next to me. They can see what's going on without being in the way. Over the long haul, will I regret the peninsula pinching the front room into a tighter space? I'd love an island, but I can't figure out how to land one peacefully in my kitchen.

Also, after reading about zones here, I'm thinking we could use more delineated work areas, as well as more counter top space and storage. What do y'all think? How much storage will we need as this crew grows up? Are we going to need a second stove, oven, fridge???? How do we fit it all in, kitchen stuff, office and computer stuff, school supplies, books, mudroom stuff, sewing stuff? It's a lot of stuff!!!

Here's a description of our goings on: We homeschool, so we're here more days than not. We cook most things from scratch, including all meals, breads (I have K Tec mixers to help with this), desserts, yogurt, meusli, maybe cheese someday. We raise our own chickens, beef cows, and egg layers. We garden. We have access to fruit trees. So, there are occasional bouts of canning and butchering, dehydrating, and freezing. We entertain some, but not as much as we'd like to. We've been 2 years trying to whip this place into shape. When it's more done, I think we'll feel much more freed up to have people in regularly. Even so, we're fixing 168+ helpings of food per week for our family.

We definitely don't operate a 1 person kitchen. So, how do we make it work for our good-sized group of helpers? Even though my DD is only 10, she already bakes up a storm, and the other girls will soon be doing likewise : ) No, we don't mind that a bit. Everyone helps clean up, as well.

I want the children to play and work nearby. This lead me to swap the dining area from the front room to the middle room about a month ago. We were reluctant to do this, because we really like all the windows in the front room. But, I think we can resolve the dark middle room by cutting a pass through style window in the wall between the middle room and living room. Anyway, the kids seem to be enjoying having more of a play area off the kitchen, and I think I like it this way. It is a lot farther for carrying dishes and food though.

The front room gets chilly in the winter. This tends to chase the kids to the wood stove in the living room. (and me too!) I'd rather not have them so far from me when I'm in the kitchen. It's too hard to monitor what's going on when they're so far away. So, we're talking about adding a 2nd wood stove in the front room that has a cook top on it (it's a Waterford Ashling, FYI), so this could be nice for soups and eggs and things in the winter. I love the idea of a cozy wood-warmed kitchen.

We have some major storage issues right now. It's called: Lack of it! You can probably imagine the coats, boots, snowpants, mittens and hats that accumulate faster than snowflakes this time of year. We are thinking of putting a coat closet in the front room along the long wall that adjoins the stairwell. This should help some, and could possibly catch the overflow storage of the kitchen, maybe even some toys, puzzles, games.

The entry room has no heat, and would be nigh impossible to insulate. We do use it for coats and shoes during the warmer months. It also currently holds our upright freezer and small chest freezer. It's not your BHG pretty entryway (boo hoo!) but it does work pretty hard for its keep. Honestly, I'd be lost without it here. Where else would I put all of our Good Will donations, extra egg cartons, and overflow from the fridge. (Told you it wasn't too pretty.) I LOVE winter. It means I get lots of free cold storage. : )

We also have a basement where we can keep our root veggies. The freezers may eventually move down there, but it's awfully convenient to have them on the same level as the kitchen. Our garage is on the other side of the driveway, so putting food out there is not a good option.

We've talked about putting a window seat under the front windows. This could hide a lot of the canning supplies, or boots, toys, a few small children (just kidding!) I think it would make a nice place to land when we come inside, and a great spot to play and read.

Another spot we're undecided is where to park the fridge and build in some pantry storage. We've made a hidey-hole to slide the fridge into, and it was there for a while. It is pretty specific to the fridge we have now (a 30" wide Crosley), as there is an angled support that goes directly above it, and support posts to either side of it. This is an 1840's post and beam house. The archway is 10' 4" and we didn't dare push our luck trying to make it any bigger. Those are our children sleeping above, after all. We don't need any unexpected drop-ins in our kitchen. : )


We tried moving the fridge around the corner to the front room when we set up a temporary counter (it's blue). I liked the counter, loved the storage underneath and above, but it pinches the walkway at the bathroom end of the kitchen terribly. It's quite a bottleneck down there. Has anyone done 18" deep counters and been happy with them? Should we put pantries in there instead? I like having some counter space across from the farm sink, but we do need a pantry, too. Should the fridge go back in its hidey-hole, or stay in the front room, or. . . where does that behemoth belong?

We've talked about setting up a clean-up/ beverage center on the 10' section of wall at the south end of the middle room. I was thinking of putting in a European style drain rack above the sink where the everyday dishes could drip dry and be stored. I'd love to hear from someone who has used one of these.

Yes, we have a GE QuietScrub DW, but it's out of order after 1 year of service. We're debating on just going to hand-washing. We already hand wash all our pots and pans. Most of the dishes had to be scraped and/or rinsed before going in the DW. By the time you do all that, you might as well run a cloth over them and be done! We don't like listening to a DW run, either. I know some of you are Bosch fans, but they looked small to me. and pricey. The salesmen I talked to said DW's had a life expectancy of about 5-7 years, if I remember right. That's a pretty heavy replacement regiment, especially when we think about the rigors it would receive in our home.

I'm sorry this is so long. Any ideas/feedback you could share would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much!

Here is a link that might be useful: Pictures and Floorplan at Photobucket

Comments (150)

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Blunt questions that I could ask more nicely if this wasn't in writing: Do you really want dirty dishes gathering on the island, which is supposed to be your wonderful, everyone-can-use-it-from-every-side work space? Really takes a lot from its value for me...Like all of it. Do you have to see the driveway from the kitchen? Can you see it from the windows in the dining room? One of those "You can't have everything" deals?

    Dishes: I didn't have the number of dishes or type I have now when my kids were the ages of yours. We don't have any fancy dishes either...Only one set. I finally ditched the flimsy and mismatched stuff and got 20 or 24 settings of restaurant heft porcelain. Not expensive, but finally enough for other families to join us and match, and of a quality that will last, while still not expensive. And there are always serving bowls, and mixing bowls, and platters, and cake plates, and water pitchers, and glasses, and cups, and mugs.... No matter what it's made of, a big family has to have comparatively a lot of dishware/serveware/glassware, and I think it's so much better to have a substantial storage place for it so it doesn't end up being pieced out around the room.

    Really, I wish you the best on the one-glass-one-person thing, because I could never get it to work, and I gave up being the glass-police. ;-)

    THe overall plan: I saw what Bmore is seeing, but the windows, again....
    OH. What about stove where fridges are, cleanup where baking is, fridges and oven where stove is, and mixer counter where desk is? 2nd OH...You had the stove under a window before, so why not move it to the front? And dishes where the fridges are.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a slightly different version. I swapped the clean-up and cooking zones. There is a full 4' between the two. We only use the door by the computer desk area for wood storage, and are thinking of putting a pantry out there, too. Our in-and-out of the house doors are the main unheated entry and the back door. This door gets used seldom. Much less than the other doors where through traffic can cause congestion problems.

    Putting the clean-up zone closer to the dining room should eliminate much of the crossover and ease cleaning up, too. Dishes can be set on the counter or passed through without having to come into the kitchen. Clean dishes could be reached from the dining room side for setting the table by simply putting doors on both sides of the cupboards (DH is building our cabs, so we can be pretty flexible in that regard.) And it'll get those dirty dishes off that island! : ) (A back-splash between the DR and kitchen would help hide the clutter on the cleanup counter too.)

    What you are reading as a - with the wood stove, we are seeing as a definite +. : ) We actually LIKE having it where it is. : ) Yes, even in the kitchen. This is probably a personal preference.

    Putting the cleanup under the big window would cause more disruptive crossover, IMO. Remember, I want a spot where kiddos can help bake. The baking center by the window would have a lowered counter to accomodate the window and all those oversized mixing tasks, PLUS let me work with the kids at the low counter or at the island by simply pivoting. The bakers are now out of everyone else's way, too. I like that.

    Also, I see having the cook top close to the table as another perk, since I'm not having to haul those heavy pans of food from the opposite side of the island to the table.

    Rhome, that's neat that you switched to restaurant dishes. I have looked at those online myself. One week when we had several Corelle dishes shatter into a bazillion pieces, it sent me looking for something break-proof like the woven wooden bowls we used in college. Someday we just might get them. (Yes, they're DW safe.) We'll see how the labeled drinking glasses go. . .

    You probably noticed that I eliminated the corner pantry. My thought is to increase counter space and gain some upper cabs. This would give us a spot for platters, salad bowls, staples like PB, and pullouts for potatoes and onions, bread and fruits below. I'm planning on building all the uppers to the ceiling, so they will be 42" or so tall, letting us store some of the excess canned goods on the higher shelves, too.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The island is the best place, IMO and experience, for letting the kids help you bake and as soon as you make it the cooking or cleanup center, that's mostly lost.

    DW door in the back of the cook's legs might work for the lone cook who doesn't EVER open the dw until after a meal, but for households with lots of kids, I have grave doubts.

    Is that front window where you show the baking area one of those that goes almost to the floor?

    It's not that we're anti- woodstove, or can't see it's possible benefits...it's just not really helping the functional kitchen layout issues, which are the priorities we have in mind. There are lots of have-to-haves, requirements, and desires up against things that can't be changed....They can't all 'win,' and I don't want you to end up losing in function for the long run.

  • bmorepanic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    See, the problem is that all of the kids will come clomping behind you as you're cooking or get underfoot when you're carrying giant pot of boiled pasta to the clean up sink because its closer.

    The placement and position of the woodstove kinda kills a long run of counter/oven/pantry. I agree its not a bad position when its a living room BUT its horrible for a play space/kitchen in that it takes a lot of floor space, and, to me is very dangerous for playing children (get a broken bone and a burn at the same time). Kids and playing needs some open space.

    Between the wood stove and the toy cupboard, and the stools, the kids get to play in a space about 4 ft x 4 ft.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sooooo. . . Would it be better to keep the kitchen in the old location?

    To answer the picture window question, it is about 26" off the floor.

    I understand concerns about playing by the woodstove. But, the kids already play there. Yup, right in front of the stove. Scary but true.

  • Katie S
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rhome, you are brilliant! I have just loved seeing all of your ideas in this and other threads. Are you a professional designer? You have such an amazing knack for getting to the real root of things. Wow. LOVE your latest design here. Droooool. Wish we has so much room!

    We have seven kids, and we DO have color-coded cups. Each child has an assigned color for everything-- I sewed little loops on the towels and washcloths, too-- they hang them from their colored loops so you always know whose towel is on the floor. Back to cups: we have three of each color by necessity, but each person is supposed to use the same one all day if at all possible. The colors help a ton, since no one has to get a fresh one out b/c of being unsure whose is whose on the counter. We have cut WAAAAY down on the number of cups and towels to wash each week. Each kid gets one towel, one washcloth and one set of pajama and sheets for the week each week. PJs go under the pillow each morning. I know that has nothing to do wiht kitchen design, but it helps us a lot.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Skatiero, Thank you! I have to say the software makes me look good. Not a professional, just have always been interested in architecture, floor plans, and design...and was raised by practical people who talked to me about such things. :-)

    I tried the color-coded cups, but it takes only one who loses theirs and grabs another color and leaving it where it doesn't belong to foul up the plan! It was never an intentional thing...Difficult and too long to explain, but it didn't work for us. Of course, we're pretty much past the stage now where irresponsible use of glasses is a problem. We, too, try to limit towel and pj use. They used to have their own towels, but when we moved they were all worn out, and I bought a big batch of white. I like to bleach our towels and the colored ones got so ugly. I never thought of sewing on something to differentiate! Good idea.

  • Katie S
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Rhome, all of our towels are white cheapies, I think they were meant for hotels but I got them very inexpensively in a lot years ago. I sewed little loops on to hang them from. If you fold a towel in half and pick it up by that top corner of the fold where you;d naturally hang it on a hook, you are holding the perfect spot to sew a little colored cotton band to hang it from, like the loop in a jacket. I bleach them a lot, but the loops have not faded too badly. I am a full-time special ed teacher, so my husband does most of the laundry. The kids are pretty good at policing each other about the cup colors. ;) Wow, I wish you could get a good look at my kitchen! we were quite limited on space and cabinet availability (bought closeouts) so we did our best. We had to decide veeeery quickly. Your family sounds like mine-- we all have the design gene in some form or another. I am an artist as well as a teacher. Your sewing room makes me drool!!!

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SKatiero, I'd love to see your kitchen...Have you posted it here?

    My parents knew about good function, efficiency, and practical family house plans. It was great of my dad to critique my plans constructively when I started drawing them at 9 or 10, so I felt like I was taken seriously. I actually have a minor in Art...Just a few credits short of having that 2nd major, but had no money then for an extra quarter at school. I just may give that towel loop hint a try. If I do, I'll definitely report it and credit you on my blog!

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, I was an art major, as well. : ) I'll have to keep the towel loop idea in mind for when we get the kids' bathroom done upstairs. And I must remember to look at DD 10's floor plans seriously. She mocked up our last rendition with blocks and doll house furniture; it was pretty neat. She's got a good sense of scale already.
    OK, down to business . . .
    Is this ANY better???? The work-ways are still walkways, but they aren't sharing the walkways as much. We may just grow into a larger table, which would fit better in the End/East room.
    As far as the wood stove goes, it really must stay. Without it, we will freeze while we pay through the nose for fuel oil. We had single and teen digits through much of Dec. and it's been hanging in the teens and low 20's through Jan. so far. Brrrrrrrrrrrrrr! I'm sitting about 15 ft. from the fire right now and my fingers are still cold. The oil furnace lives under the "front room", so it can heat that end pretty adequately (yet expensively), but it doesn't reach so well to our bdroom or the East/endroom where the wood stove is now.


    I apologize for the light pic. I didn't bother tracing it all over like the other plans. If you have any advice on an easier way to get the pics from my program than printing, redrawing, scanning, and then uploading, I'd really appreciate it. 3D home architect won't save to JPEG. Argh! I always loved the program, pre-gardenweb.

  • palimpsest
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you are going to develop this version, I would plan on closing one side of the entry to the basement steps so people did not use it as a shortcut right by the range.

    I would do this at least with a door on the LR side, that locked from the kitchen side. If you have outside access to the basement I would consider closing it off altogether on the LR side.

    Or:

    If you closed it off on the Kitchen side...which could be very inconvenient depending upon how you use your basement...you could develop that whole corner.

  • bmorepanic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Study of some opening closures.
    {{gwi:1984927}}

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't think closing off the opening by the basement stairs is a good option at all. That is the main way into the kitchen from the entryway where we bring in groceries. So, if that's closed off, we'd be carrying them way around the back and looping into the kitchen. Sorry to be blunt, but- YUCK! :^) When we get groceries, we get GROCERIES. Also, we use the basement for some of our root veggie and freezer storage, so easy access to the basement from the kitchen is an important aspect.

    Now, it is possible that when we put a semi-circular drive in, that groceries could be brought in through the door near the bottom of the page by the wood stove.

    I would possibly, maybe, consider closing off the doorway near the bottom of the page by the piano. That would eliminate bringing groceries in that way, though.
    Also, it would mean hauling those heavy pans of food the long way around to get them to the table, too. DH thinks 2 doorways could be a benefit to the DR, so I don't even know if he could be convinced to change it.
    Bmore- we don't need a MW, but I do like gaining a little extra counter on that wall. I'm not sure about separating the fridges. . . I know myself in that I might forget what I put in which fridge and then have to traipse around trying to check and see where it was put last (or where DC stuck something during cleanup chores.) : / Hmmmmm . . .

    When does this game end??? I want to see the screen that flashes: "You win- Game over!" Hee, hee. Wahhhhhh!

    In all seriousness, we do need to get this nailed sooner rather than later. DH has some time off right now and is trying to get more done on the house. These kitchen decisions are affecting other areas, such as running wires, outlet placement, and so forth. I appreciate your insights (!), I'm just hoping the end is in sight soon.

    I'm going to go play with opening the middle of the wall where the sink is in the drawing above, which should give us some tighter corners. I have NO idea how the pieces may fall, but if looks like it's workable, I'll post it.

  • palimpsest
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maybe closing it with a door on the LR side that could be opened to bring in the groceries would be an option then, just to keep people from using it as a main thoroughfare past the stove. A door would tend to direct people around the "no door" path.

    We carry groceries five blocks and up 52 steps so walking around the stairs wouldn't seem that bad in comparison.:)

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    More reasons not to close off opening by entry. I want to be able to see and get through there. Doorbell rings. They have to wait for me to run around the back way. Child in living room needs help with something. Run around again. Relaxing with a book and a child on my lap on the couch. Buzzer goes off for bread or cookies, around the horn again. Nope. I don't think it works well. We had that spot closed off temporarily in an earlier remodeling project and it made that front room feel much smaller, as well. When we took the tall bookcases down that were blocking the opening, our house felt massive in comparison. Interior views are good for opening up space that way.

  • palimpsest
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well then, I don't think the layout with the kitchen in the middle is very practical for a number of reasons. It sounds like that puts it in the wrong place.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In this plan, I was thinking we could put a hutch in that we can fill from the kitchen side, and set the table from on the DR side. Then we could get rid of the uppers that are hanging out in space above the dish counter.

    It might be better to just put a corner counter in there instead though (?) Something like this. . .

  • palimpsest
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think it is the range location at the doorway that is the primary problem with the plan. Its In the doorway since the counter projects out from it, and it is only about four feet away. This looks different on the plan than it would in real life.

    Try moving that...

  • lisa_a
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with palimpsest - move the range. There looks to be plenty of room between heat run and window in the bottom right corner without crowding your clean-up area (but I've no idea what scale this is and I'm having a hard time reading the faint lines). I'm referring to your latest plan, btw. I think moving it down that wall and closing up that access to the DR will minimize traffic cutting past the range to the front room/front door/basement stairs.

    Where's the DO? Perhaps that can go where you currently show your range? I'd be tempted to end that counter run with the DO and leave space in front of the top right window open. Or perhaps install a shallow set of bookshelves below the window. That won't intrude into the room/entry as much as the counter looks like it will (on paper, anyway).

    You mentioned that you bring groceries up the basement stairs. Where do you see yourself putting them down when you enter the kitchen?

  • palimpsest
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lisa:

    Actually I think the groceries come in through that unheated entry then through the stairwell into the kitchen. And, she has secondary food storage in the basement

    (I am the one who walks up all the steps :))

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The room is about 15' 6" x 15' 6". There is 3'6-7" around the island, except on the sink side, which has 4'. The island could be made narrower, I have it set at 4' x 5' 3". It could certainly shrink up a bit, if needed. The "opening" between the corner of the pantry and the cupboard by the stove near the entry is 36"-38" (My program isn't super accurate, unfortunately, so I can't give you an exact # on that.)

    Here are the darkened lines and labels, though, HTH. As Palimpsest said, the groc. do come in through the front entry, not the stairs, thank goodness. : ) (We had a raised ranch once; THAT was a process to bring the groceries into! Phew, glad we don't do that anymore.) To answer the question, the groceries would land on the island and disperse from there.

    I tried the double oven between the front window as Lisa suggested. I think I like all the "monsters" grouped together, LOL. It really sticks out when it's between the windows.

    OR--

    We could MAYBE (hmmmmm. . .) put 2 standard ranges/stoves with their ovens under on the front wall, one where Lisa suggested, and one in between the 2 windows. Then we could eliminate the DO! I'm a bit hesitant about putting a double oven in (the one we're thinking of using is a Jenn Air, which seems to be a brand riddled with problems.) If it ever malfunctions(like Rhome's oven woes, yikes!), we are looking at a major expense to repair or replace it. Standard ranges are easy to come by in comparison.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If you're bothered by heights, you might not want to look at this-LOL. I can't change it, it's just the way this program does an aerial view, but maybe it'll help get a "feel" for the space.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Stove still pretty close to a major traffic thoroughfare, and you're maybe pinching that spot a bit by the time counters go in... Whomever comes through and whatever they're carrying come mighty close to the cook. Once in awhile would be OK, perhaps, but if it's going to happen constantly during dinner making...a pain. Your path from fridge to stove or stove to fridge is blocked by the island, meaning laps around the island and competing with the traffic coming through from all the other rooms. What looks like a stool in that busy aisle at the end of the island concerns me.

    I don't understand why replacing or fixing a range would be any better than replacing an oven? Ranges protrude more into the aisle than the cooktop and would be more of a problem in that spot between the windows, it seems.

    My experience with ovens is not typical, thank goodness. In retrospect, I wish I'd just got a bottle of porcelain patching stuff for the 1st one and been done with it! The Monogram was just an oven I plain didn't like..It supposedly worked as they designed it, which IMO was not great. Technically, all was taken care of by warranty, so aggravating, but not expensive. Anyway, yes, problems are possible and I think anyone should leave room for appliances to come in and out, but there are more important things on which to decide between range and oven+cooktop than my particular hassles. The JennAir is used, right? How old? Has it had problems already?

    With all the through-traffic, potential cross-traffic, and angly cabinets to force this room into working...I'm not sure it's the best choice.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's the deal as I see it: A cooktop is a custom fit. If it goes bad, good luck getting a replacement to fit the custom hole in the counter. So, now you are replacing an expensive appliance AND a countertop that's expensive and time consuming to replace.
    A double oven, while nice if it works, is also a semi custom fit. If the controls fritz out, as plenty of them have on the reviews of a variety of makes I've read online, you have no oven, are out a lot of money, and are unlikely to find a reasonably priced replacement. Ganging two ovens together could be asking for trouble, IMO. What if the controls go bad on ONE of them? Now you have one little oven that works, and one little oven that's junk. So what do you do? They're integrated. Let's see, that means we have to buy another set of integrated ovens ($$$$) to replace the unit, or limp along with one oven and use the clunker for what. . .extra storage?
    My sweet little Maytag smoothtop cost us $70 on Craigslist. I don't think I could even have a repairman in my door for that price. If it goes, there are plenty more out there available, and they'll fit the gap between the cabinets no problem. A 30" hole is a 30" hole.
    I like the idea of a cook top and separate oven, don't get me wrong. I'd love to store all my pots and pans in drawers under the top. I do wonder about running across the kitchen from one to the other when part of supper is on the cooktop and the other part is in the oven. It's a pretty simple matter to stop stirring a pot on the stove and peek in to see how that casserole is doing, when the stove is right under the cooktop.
    It's mostly that the price of these things make me leery! They cost more than what we paid for the vehicle we drive our whole family! Yes, the Lord has blessed us with wonderful transportation, and we are grateful for that.
    Are we cheap? Nearly unabashedly so. Being debt free is a big deal to us. I just read the "slippery slope" thread. I wasn't laughing. I was cringing inside. I don't want to go there, not in a bobsled, not on a toboggan, not even on skis.
    There has got to be a workable solution for this house. We aren't talking about tiny rooms here. There are three decently sized rooms to choose from for this kitchen. I realize we are trying to meet a wide variety of needs, but there must be a way for them to peacefully coexist.
    OK, I think I'm done ranting for the moment. . .

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    To sum up, I think what we need is:
    -windows stay put
    -wood stove stays in corner of East room
    -Farm sink stays put
    -2 standard fridges next to each other
    -a dedicated sewing area that will house 2 sewing machines, minimum. We don't have fancy equipment, just plain Jane sewing machines.
    -Storage for arts and crafts supplies.
    -A dedicated spot for computer(s) that will hold printer, files, etc. Visible is better, for children's sakes (internet safety type issues).
    -Bookshelves, a sum total of 10 linear feet, floor to ceiling.
    -a spot for cookbooks relatively convenient to the baking zone.
    -30" of range/oven space to start with, could expand later, if planned for now.
    -A dedicated baking area, with room to hold 4 bins of grain
    24" tall, 18" front to back, 11" wide, all on wheels. One holds oats, which would be awfully convenient to have near stove top.
    -A sink with 1 DW, and a 2' cab. nearby that could be converted to a 2nd DW if we feel the need later on.
    -A prep sink
    -Some sort of island for group cooking projects.
    -Open lines of vision for easy communication between various areas of house
    -wall to be opened up between middle room and East room for light and view.
    -Convenient storage for all the kitchen accoutrements, as well as larger pots, pans that a large family uses.
    -Dish storage
    -Sizable pantry
    -Room for a nice big family table, and an option to set up an eating spot for guests. It's not unusual for us to have another family as large, or larger, than ours over for a meal. A folding table can be set up, as long as we take that need into account.
    -Remember that we can and butcher throughout the year.
    -Zones that "make sense" for work flow, and can be used efficiently solo, or with multiple cooks.

    I think that's the majors. Phew! This is why my head spins. Oh, we could use a spot for someplace comfy to read books and visit, you know, a living room. ; )

    One idea DH and I tossed around today was to make the "old" kitchen the canning and butchering kitchen. He thinks keeping craft supplies in there would work too. Hmmmm. . .

  • aliris19
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    laughable -- what is the "slippery slope" thread please? Just curious...

    And I'd like to add this gratuitous remark: I am so impressed with the doggedness of all you "art majors". You just keep shaking this idea back and forth, teeth sunk in, flobbering it over and over. I am so impressed with your tenacity in continuing to get to a solution.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Honestly, at first I thought your list was far too ambitious for the space...But I completely relate to and respect your values and live those same needs...so I went back to it.

    Economically, it makes the most sense to leave as much of the kitchen where it is. It also makes the most sense to use the middle room for something that can handle the cross traffic, and a centered table does that. The thing that really cemented that idea for me is the ability to stretch the table. That was a priority in designing our home, and I made sure that although doorways offer delineation between rooms, they are wide enough to fit a table and chairs through, so we can stretch it as long as we need.

    I changed to your 2 ranges...You can easily start with 1 for now and add the 2nd later. Just put in temporary cabinets or removable work tables. I took out the prep sink and there is no opportunity for a 2nd dw...Those were economic decisions. It seems like overkill to have 3 sinks if you're trying to cut costs. The prep sink can go back in, there isn't room on the perimeter for the other dw with the 2 ranges...Maybe in the island? The minimal aisles would make that tough, but placed carefully, and if you want it badly enough, it might be possible. Just make sure both can be open at once.

    Having the sewing attached to the kitchen makes sense, as some of the counter and the island can double as craft and sewing layout/cutting/work surface. (I only show 3 bins, but that's just because of the symbol I chose. I'm not sure how large your bins are, but I could fit 4 of mine in that space.) I still feel you need the big pantry, and don't see another alternative for it.

    The dining room offers the wallspace for the computer center and some storage. You could put more shelves or upper cabinets between the windows, but if you can do without it, it's a cleaner, more spacious feel to leave that upper wall clearer.

    Whole plan:

    Close up of the kitchen area:

    Close up of the middle room:

    Renderings (My software doesn't offer sewing machines, so forgive the use of microwaves instead!):

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just looking at the renderings and seeing the sewing areas are a bit tight...Maybe it would be best to lower the counter over the bins also, so the sewing can spread out, and it could work for a child kitchen helper, too. It'll make sense to have the counter change heights with the dish cupboard as divider.

    That's what I like about this plan...Multi-use for sewing and kitchen projects. And one area can squeeze smaller when the other needs more room.

    If the bins could fit in the pantry, there could be a drawer base unit in between the windows, with a sewing machine and leg room in front of each window for sewing time, then move both machines over to the right if/when the counter is needed for kitchen.

    I'll work on drawings to illustrate what I mean.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    With bins under a lower counter:

    With bins in pantry:

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The slippery slope link is attached below. Thanks for your encouragement Aliris!

    Thank you, thank you, thank you for not giving up and walking away, Rhome. (Did I say thank you strongly enough?) I appreciate you hearing me out and trying to make this work with me. You've come up with some really nice ideas with this plan, esp. the sewing and work stations. Those look like they'd work incredibly well for our lifestyle. Now, where do we get those micro-sewing machines that speed-cook new dresses for us? LOL : )

    One thing I want to explore more: You mentioned that having the cleanup center in your DR did not work. Would you mind explaining why? That's one area that looks a bit pinched, and it seems a long way to carry dishes back and forth. I'd like to hear more of your experiences with that so that we can evaluate it for ourselves.
    I'm going to sit down with this plan and mentally put everything away and go through our routines to see how it works.
    I like the option of expanding the table area when needed. There is a slight floor raise from the middle room to the living room, and the little wall that sticks out in the living room can't be removed. It holds up the attic. But, even with those constraints, it looks workable. You think so, too?
    Is there any reason you wouldn't put the grain bins under the island? I love both of the sewing machines in front of the windows. This arrangement isn't conventional, but then, neither is our family. : ) It sounds very workable. I can easily help with a stuck seam, a jammed needle, fly over and turn down the soup, check bread in the oven, read a book with a little one on the bench, etc without killing myself (as long as I don't trip over the blocks on the floor!-Ha, ha) I like the play zone, too. : )
    Off to "fill" the cupboards!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Sippery Slope Thread

  • bmorepanic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You are showing 18-20" deep workstations back to back with the dining table. They are a little bit narrow and if made a more comfortable depth, will really have interference with the dining table chairs. Since that looks like homework alley, I'd not sure about where the other three will be seated and what happens going to and from the living room. I realize that the living room might not be in use at the same time.

    I think its a bit office-like and contains a lot of single purpose space that goes unused a lot of the time. I think it would be better NOT to build so much in - then you can a adjust. Adjust for the kids growing up and leaving things like the benches behind. They will become the kids they are, not necessarily liking any of the activities you are thinking about now. What will you do if they don't like sewing, crafts, canning, etc? What happens if they all like woodworking or soccer or differential equations?

    Lastly, I'd be thinking modesty panels.

    And FYI - I grew up on a farm and I have 6 other brothers and sisters.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bmore, thanks for your concern. I think 18-20 in. workstations work pretty well with what we've got for a DR. That's about what we have, except with a mismatched hodge-podge of a dresser, defunct sewing cabinet, and an old school desk by the front windows in the middle room. I'd love to have DH build something that looks nice and streamlined there, instead. The window nearest the living room is where I sit at the laptop. It's a great place to work, I see the world go by, I see the fire to my right, the children in the front room to my left. No glare on my screen from the window, either. : )
    DD's are already way too interested in sewing to not dedicate a spot for it. We have a full-fledged woodshop out back, and 50 acres of land should the desire to kick a soccer ball around arise. DH was a math major, and Dif-EQ didn't take up too much space, as I remember it. : )
    Some of the kids can sit at the table, couch, in their rooms, at a desk upstairs, outside (in good weather) to do schoolwork. Yes, it would be nice for them to each have their own workstation, but this is an area where I'm willing to compromise due to space constraints. Their school supplies are in lidded file bins with handles that make their work highly portable.
    As to the space going unused a lot of the time, I'm not so sure about that. Our DR table would work overtime to try to handle it all: coloring, painting, crafts, sewing, 3 meals a day, snacks, daily laundry folding, paperwork, schoolwork, research, wrapping gifts, cutting out patterns, model building, ad infinitum. Even as their interests develop and change, I can see those work spots getting some heavy use.
    You've shared some good ideas already, but if you have what you think might work even better than what Rhome has above, I would love to see it. : ) Like I said before, we have 3 good sized room to work with, we just need to nail down how best to utilize them.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can you say "STUPID?!!" Just had a response written out that took me 20 minutes, and I hit the X instead of the Back arrow and it's all gone!

    YOu have addressed some of my answer, anyway. Our 14 yo would love a workstation and 20" is really no less depth than she has with 1/2 our dining room table. We've had freestanding desks in our old house that were that depth. The workstations and sewing area are things that would've worked (and been very welcome) for our family 10 yrs ago, now, and for a few years to come yet. The sewing area will always be good to have. Canning and sewing aren't things, in my experience, one loses interest in, as they meet needs, not just for fun.

    I don't know where you'd have room for any cleanup center in the middle room without losing the homeschool/craft storage and your computer center. Then they'd have to find another spot and the dominoes would start falling with the whole plan. One thing changes another, which changes another, and so on.

    Dishes and silverware are needed in both the kitchen and dining rooms. I even tried separate silverware for each room and it didn't help things getting mixed up and always being in the 'wrong room.' When filling dishwashers it's hard to get them arranged efficiently with some dishes in one room and some in the other. It seems there is always some shifting and moving required to get things fit in right...Like doing puzzles! There is confusion about what things belong in which room and finding things can be a constant challenge and aggravation. What seemed so good in theory just did not work in daily practice. I am MUCH happier with dishwashers and dishes all in one location, even if they are a walk to the dining room table. --If both DWs don't get filled at once, it's nice to be able to wash the contents of one and start filling the other with dirty dishes as they develop/collect.

    Your cleanup area is a longer distance from the dining table than is wonderful. But many hands will make light work of clearing the table...Although a distance, it's only through one doorway and then straight to the sink. Setting the table is more complex, but I don't see an alternative unless you want to dine in the front room and sew, etc in the middle room. As I said, the table seems to fit best in that room that has so many directions of traffic.

    It'd be great to put the kitchen in the living room, but with so many long windows, you have no space to properly place and protect the stove with wall left for the fridges.

    The bins could go under the island, but you're already short on drawer space, so I wouldn't give up what storage the island can offer.

    2 questions about the last plan you drew with the kitchen in the middle room:

    1) You wouldn't let me close up that doorway to the living room before because your dh wouldn't hear of it, because of his path for hauling wood to the woodstove...DId that change?

    2) Is there a reason you wouldn't consider moving the cooktop/range to the right of the window? That would put it in a protected location and give you a better path to the fridge from the stove.

  • bmorepanic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm sorry, but sewing and canning is an interest and not a life skill. I canned for about 8 years - grew and single handedly canned and froze every veg, fruit and jam all those kids ate every winter. I left home and never canned again. I can not stand the smell of raw tomatoes to this day from all of the blanch and peel.

    I wouldn't sew in the kitchen or cut material on an island (or any kitchen surface) because any little drop of anything could wreck the material. With so many people using the kitchen, its going to happen.

    Generally speaking, a 24" deep desk surface is small. An 18" worktop is a sheet of paper and a small book (large one won't fit). The difference with a dining table top is the ability to take over more than one seat when you need one.

    Plus, I could be surprised by the answer, but is canning and sewing a life skill for males?

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just to answer: Sewing and preserving saves us money and allows us to have things we wouldn't otherwise...as does woodworking, baking, etc...so I consider them necessary life skills for us. Our boys sew. They mend seams and narrow their jean legs! LOL. My boys were the ones to jump in to help me process tomatoes. I'm sure they won't be doing canning a lot through their lives, but it sure doesn't hurt that they know how these things work...No one can say the kids will continue with these particular skills throughout their lives, and no one can say they won't.

    But what matters here, I thought, is that Laughable does do canning and sewing, and her kids are also learning to, and they need the space. If the spaces aren't used that way down the line, they can be changed or re-purposed. (Mostly we're only talking about supported countertops.) They suit now and in the lengthy foreseeable future. We've had homes in which I had to make sewing space out of other rooms and other work spaces...It was horrible. Nothing worse than trying to sew on a dining room table and having to clear it up every night for dinner, or worse, to leave the mess and live around it. That's when food gets on fabric.

    I have cut fabric on a cleaned dining table or island, because I don't have another option (unless it's the floor). I don't cut them there during meal prep. :-)

    I'm confused though...Are you saying she shouldn't have the sewing areas? Should they be somewhere else? Is there a better answer so they're not sharing the island?

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bmore, I'm sorry you have such memories from canning. Were you the oldest in your family? It sounds like you shouldered a tremendous amount of responsiblity for your brothers and sisters. You might not feel this way, but I'm sure you were quite a blessing to them to be able to help take care of them in such a manner.
    My children, the boy, as well as the girls, love to be in the kitchen helping. Whatever the girls do, my son wants to be a part of too. He's been working on finger knitting b/c he sees them knit. He's also all boy, driving his trucks around, conquering riding every 2 wheeled bike we own, climbing on everything, and busy, busy, busy. My DH learned to both knit and crochet from his grandma. I have a dresser scarf that DH finished cross-stitching b/c I got tired of working on it. Both my dad and DH are handy with sewing machines. Dad upholstered his own boat cushions years ago. DH was better with the sewing machine than I was when we first married. He too has done upholstery. If I don't get to his mending fast enough, he's apt to take matters into his own hands (and they come out just fine!) These are not mushy men either. They've spent countless hours together rebuilding engines, turning a ranch into a literal raised ranch, installing wiring and plumbing, redoing roofs, scheming up welding projects, woodworking projects, planning better tools than what you can find on the market, you name it.
    My DD 10 just helped her dad skin the two baby beefers that we butchered this weekend. She loved it! She's talking about raising rabbits for meat starting this spring, including the butchering. (Certainly not activities that I'd think of as girly!) All of the kids clammor for rides on the tractor with their dad. We want them to have these skills, for them to be well-rounded, to understand what it takes for something to get from A to B.
    If our children want to eat healthy foods affordably that aren't ladened with pesticides and devoid of nutrients, then yes, I would say that preserving food could indeed be a lifeskill. If nothing more for the fact that they understand the effort that goes into getting food from seed to mouth. I'm sure you are thankful each day that you have the ability to choose not to put your efforts toward that end, but you certainly have experience in understanding it all. If you ever have a change of heart toward tomatoes, there are young people (and probably older ones, too!) who would love to have you share your knowledge of canning with them. People are just waking up to the fact that they want unadulterated local food. But the homeskills to work with it have become somewhat of a lost art.
    Sewing is an incredibly valuable lifeskill to have. I learned the basics of it growing up, but it was when I got married and moved out that I really picked it up again. I started making curtains, throwpillows, cushion covers, upholstering, to make our homes more homey. We both worked at a private school that paid half of a starting salary at a public school paid. So we practiced stretching our dollars by doing what we could ourselves rather than trying to buy everything at top dollar that was already made. What we lacked in funds we tried to make up for in creativity. Honestly, I think we are happier doing things that way. We get a huge sense of satisfaction and accomplishment to be able to use things that we've made ourselves. A few years ago my bro. in law was up visiting when we were drying apples. We were all working on them together. I don't think he's hardly gone a week without drying apples since then. He bought a dehydrator and uses it all the time! (Much more than we do-LOL) In turn, he was the one to show us how to make yogurt. He's within months of getting his doctorate, lives on a measly stipend. . . and travels the world. He has no debt and could write a book on living simply. Last time he was up I offered to stitch up a catch he had in his sweater. He replied that he had a sewing kit with him and he could fix it himself. Did their mom and dad do a good job giving DH and b-i-l some life skills? You bet! : ) And I am a wife who is so thankful for that.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You are not stupid. You are a human being. : ) I've made mistakes like that more times than I can count. I'm sorry you had that exasperating error, though!

    1. Eliminating doorway. Well, DH is always full of surprises. : ) He really liked the openness of the wall removed bt the middle room and end room with the kitchen in the middle. He doesn't HAUL wood through that doorway. He SEES the fire through that door-LOL! and walks through it to go stoke the fire. The wood storage is through the door that's next to the wood stove at the front of the house.

    He kind of liked the idea of the kitchen being the hub of the home, and having a separated space for canning and butchering. I'm trying to discern whether one all-purpose kitchen, or two separate, but nearly connected kitchens would be better for that.

    2. Stove movement. It could move down to the other side of the window, yes. Actually, it was when I looked at it there that I realized, hey, I could have TWO stoves that share a utensil drawer and pot cupboard between them with a heat resistant surface on top right there! Two stoves would let me get rid of the wall oven idea, freeing up space by the fridges for a short run of counter.

    OR. . . I'm still batting around that 40" wide 6 burner, 2 oven, 2 broiler Crown stove in my head. I think it might be an oldy but goody kind of deal. That would fit between the two front windows, but not to the right of the windows b/c of the heat run. Can I say that people who have heat runs IN their walls instead of in FRONT of their walls can be thankful (and I'm thankful for heat, too!) There's an 8-10" or so solid wood beam that forms the base of our house that makes running heat runs and electric through it verrrrry challenging.

    Honestly, tucking or not tucking the stove in more isn't a really big deal to me. But getting a more direct line to the fridge would be a def. bonus.

    Now I'm confused (well, that might not be that new-grin). Are you saying that the kitchen in the middle might actually work pretty well?

    You see, I was thinking of putting a low counter, say 26" high, same height as the bottom of the picture window, in the end/East room for the sewing machines to sit on. (Kind of like your 26" high counter, now that I know that that's a good height for sewing machines.) There could be a desk between the window and the South wall, and bookshelves all along the south wall.

    I too, have used an island, well cleaned, for cutting fabric-a dream come true. It's just the right height to not kill my back. And my counters tend to be cleaner than my floors, ahem. ; )

    You might have picked up on this from my last post, but DH can run wiring, plumbing, make cabs, make/install counters, paint, so, the installation price is minimal. It's the appliances, which are a teeny bit more challenging to make ourselves(!), that are the expense for us.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Even with DIY, running plumbing and wiring costs money in materials...and you already have money and much effort spent in the kitchen you have. That makes it the most economical to use, by far.

    I'm not saying the middle room is the best for the kitchen, but trying to offer you workable options to consider...You have to decide which downsides are the least problematic. Really, I think a stove where people are rushing through and carrying things is not going to be good in the long run, and having the stove with the island completely blocking access to the fridge from the stove is a bad idea for which people decide to remodel their kitchens.

    As far as considering sewing counters in the east room...I would only do it if you're turning that room into the school room. I would want to maintain one space in which majorly messy projects aren't always in progress. Have a place that can be clean and nice for guests, and for yourself to sit and breathe in!

    I don't think that with all the needs you have for this house that you have room for 2 kitchens. My opinion. That's another reason to leave the kitchen where it is. As it is, it's kind of like a kitchen and a half, so it can serve for daily tasks, and still fit the canning and butchering stuff when necessary. You get 2 for just over the room of 1. If you have 2, you take more room, and other needs suffer. I don't know if I'm explaining that well, but I hope so.

    A 40" oldie range sounds like a risk to me, mostly because you have an odd space to fill if/when a replacement is needed.

  • bmorepanic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I felt personally attacked and I responded in a personal manner because I hadn't sorted it out yet. For that I apologise.

    I merely said I wouldn't build that stuff in - because it eliminates possibilities of reconfiguring on the fly and felt slaughtered by comments that amounted to "if you don't have anything nice to say..." and roughly "you're taking stuff away from my family" and particularly all the commentary that "you just don't understand".

    I don't want your sympathy - it feels belittling and depersonalizing when a stranger decides that they are able to judge your life on the basis of a kitchen design comment. All I wanted to do was communicate that your children may have a completely different view.

  • palimpsest
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bmore,

    You might want to remember this experience from the other side of things. You've basically done to me and indirectly, some of my clients, when I have posted conceptual ideas I was thinking about. Maybe you don't realize it.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bmore, I hope it wasn't me you felt personally attacked by. You know I love you and we often just have these things we view differently, and I was trying to explain where my view came from. Honestly and truly I wasn't sure what you were getting at in terms of the layout, and wasn't referring to your personal life at all, but the OPs..and a little about us to explain. (I have to say I didn't see any of her comments that way either.) And the 'stupid' was definitely all about me! LOL. Once again, intent and tone of voice get lost or misconstrued often in this medium because we think we're saying one thing and it comes out otherwise. I hate that.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Bmore, the last thing in the world I wanted to do was to attack you or belittle you. Please forgive me for coming across that way. I can't tell you how much I look forward each day to seeing what you and others have in the way of ideas for this project. This home is where we spend so much of our time. After living with it for two years and not making headway, I knew I could use some fresh insights, which brought me to gardenweb. I've been thrilled that people (you included!!!) have been willing to give of themselves and share ideas with us.
    I think my commentary offended you, I am truly sorry. I was sharing a glimpse of who we are as a family, what drives us to the decisions that we are trying to make. It's okay for you to have different opinions on these matters.
    I honestly did not mean to attack you or your ideas. How I feel constrained by black letters on a white screen to express this adequately. When I asked of your birth order and upbringing, I meant it in love, but I think it came out all wrong. If anything, your comments were a gentle reminder to me to be careful in how I delegate the workload in our family so that no one feels overburdened, and to give each child room to be the person he or she was created to be. (What I learn here might not all be directly related to kitchen design, but it does have much to do with everyday life(!) and is still valuable.)

    I'm trying to evaluate what works best for these spaces. Are you suggesting that modular units would be better for our spaces? Something with wheels, or simply unattached that we can move around as needs change? Is there a different configuration that would look nicer, or work better somehow that I'm missing? It would be fantastic to have 2' deep or more workspots. I just honestly don't know where. It would be great to put some of these things upstairs, so that they would be out of sight, that would be helpful too. But it's small up there, or if I put a positive spin on it, extremely "efficient". By default, all of the various activities land downstairs.

    This is meant as a joke, please laugh with me: If only we could "giggle" the stuff up to the ceiling when we don't need it, like Uncle Albert (is that his name?) in Mary Poppins, that would be grand. There is so much cubic space up there that we can't use. But on the floor, it feels a little limited. I'm not trying to be snippy, just lighthearted. : )

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you again, to each and every one of you. You have all given me much to think about as we've worked through this sticky kitchen plan. DH and I sat down last night and laid out what we are going to do. You might be suprised or maybe even a bit dissappointed at a few of our decisions, but as we sat in the space and thought through our movements and needs, we think that this is what works best.
    Hold onto your hats, because we are doing a variation of the plan that was referred to as disjointed. We are planning on taking out the 30" stove and replacing the top with butcherblock. Underneath will be larder style drawers for potatoes, onions, fruit, etc.
    A fridge will go in the fridge hole, with farm storage next to it. This will make an efficient work flow: garden or fridge to farm sink, chop at the butcherblock, have a 30" cupboard above it to hold the everyday basics, pasta and such, and fill casserole dishes, canning jars, or pans on the counter under the big window, and then on to the stove.
    We talked about why we installed the counter and large window the way we did originally, and neither one of us really want to change its functioning. It was set lower to make it easier for baking and pouring. Putting stoves in front of it would cut into the view, and we'd be giving up that wide swath of working and setting space.

    I haven't been all that pleased with the SS sink since we put it in. The large cupboard that hangs out in space over it, the one I didn't think would bother me when we planned it that way, turns out to aggravate me. (Am I claustrophobic or something?) I'm not very tall, yet it still feels like I ought to duck when I am using that sink. Soooooo we plan to remove that sink and the cupboard above and to the right of it and replace it with a larger stove, probably the Crown that I mentioned earlier, and put a narrower cupboard to the right of the sink for cooking oils and savory spices.

    Putting the stove in the SS sink spot puts it in a more protected zone than it was in our original plan, as several of you have recommended doing.
    Why the Crown? Well, it's repairable. It doesn't have anything electronic to go bad on it. So, even if something goes quirky with it, we can fix it ourselves. It's 40" wide, giving us 20" to put toward storage rather than 2 30" stoves that would chew up 60" of valuable space. Maybe some day, if we are unhappy with it, we can upgrade to a fancier NXR or Wolf type stove, but for right now, I think I can be a happy clam with it. Fully refurbished, these are listed on ebay for close to 5k, so I don't think it's going to be a bad stove.
    Let's continue on down the kitchen. To the right of the stove will be the baking area with a heat resistant counter. Where the DW was, there is room for a rolling grain bin, and we can fit some more bins, and a cart to hold my grain grinder, too, in front of and to the right of the heat run.
    We just put back our old island, which we conjured up from a salvaged butcherblock attached to an antique dresser. (Drawers under the island Rhome! Grin.) We had taken it out because the clearance was too tight when the DW was open, and it would slide into table space when the DR was in the front room. Since the DW will be moved, it won't be an issue anymore. Baking will happen at the island. along with using the sqeezo/victorio, and other group cooking tasks. Bigger butchering projects can happen here, too.
    So, the sink and the DW are going on a peninsula style counter coming out between the two windows at the side of the house. Amazingly enough, this does wonders for our lighting that's already in. The sink will line up right under the fixture that used to hang over the dining table (anyone want it? I like its looks, but, it's gotta go. It needs a taller ceiling to be happy). We've put a ceiling hugger in it's place. Ahhh, my head can breathe in that space again. The ceiling fan light hangs over the island. That one is high enough not to bother me, thank goodness.

    On the stairwell wall will go one more fridge placed in the corner. From the fridge out along the wall will be a 5' counter with drawers underneath, and wall cabs above. This spot will be for dishes, snacky stuff for DH's lunches, teas, and wraps and storage containers for after meal cleanups.

    The dishwashing peninsula lets us look out the front windows without being right up against them. It also lets us have a spot for folks to hang out at the front. We mocked it up with our trusty folding table and it feels spacious up there, amazingly enough. DW will be to right of sink. Sink will have the doors inset underneath for knee room. To the left of the sink, I'm planning to have DH build a base cab to hold our toaster oven on the top shelf, and the cookbooks below.

    On the side opposite the sink, I'd like to put shallow cabs that can hold extras: toys, books, extra kitchen needs, I'm sure it will change as our needs change.
    Because the sink cleanup area is such a short run, we're planning to do a 30" depth flat counter, no backsplash. This will give us more landing space for the dishes during cleanup. We're wanting to do this counter with solid surface, and put runnels in for draining large pots and pans.

    The middle room will have 2 workspots along the front wall, probably a laptop at each window. Drawers in between the windows. "Gutter shelves" to the right of the windows.

    The stairwell wall will have a large floor to ceiling cupboard, 12" deep, for homeschool and art, craft, office supplies for things that are done at the table (coloring, etc.)

    The large expanse of wall at the back of the room, where Rhome drew the computer area, will be a 15" deep x 9' 6" long pantry.

    The wall between the DR and Liv. Rm will be removed (Yahooooo! I can hardly wait!) We're thinking of arching the top of the doorway that has to stay there, and doing panels, similar to a paneled door, on the stub wall that has to stay there. I'd love to know how to make this not look "weird".

    Under the picture window will be a work counter, 26" high, that can hold 2 sewing machines. Under the counter will be a drawer unit on wheels for threads and other small sewing supplies. We're planning to make the counter have supports like a gate leg table. Normally, the lg. couch will divide the DR from the living room. But when guests are coming, we can drop the sewing counter down, put the machines away, and slide the lg. couch against the picture window. To the right of the window will be floor to ceiling cupboards for toys and sewing supplies. Along the back wall will be bookshelves above, enclosed fabric storage below. The loveseat can push against this and be pulled out when we need to get fabric. Our couches are lightweight, thankfully. I wasn't kidding when I said I move stuff around a lot. Two comfy chairs will sit a bit in front of the window, too.

    To complete the circular tour, behind the back door will be a cupboard where I can keep meds, herbs, and extra laundry soaps. I honestly can't tell you whether or not we will do the boot wash spot, DH and I didn't touch on that one last night. My dad called to tell me yesterday that he has a friend who offered to do us a custom SS base, if we want, but I forgot to tell DH this.

    I think that's the majors. You all have helped us think through so much. Thank you for giving of yourselves in this way. It's a sacrifice to pour so much of yourself into helping us wrestle with these plans; we appreciate it. I know this is long, but I didn't want to leave you hanging, wondering what we decided.

    If you'd like, I can hopefully post pics when we're done. I've loved seeing others pictures, and will try to return the favor.

    Hugs to you all, (hope that's not too personal. I just appreciate your help!)
    Laughable

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do you have a new drawing to show? I'd like to see how it all lays out. And then we'll wait impatiently to see it come to be. :-) Any timeline?

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The island that we put in measures 42" long x 30" wide on the top. The dresser base is 19 1/4" x 38 1/4".
    This gives us quite a bit of room on 2 sides, I have it right now at 54 1/2" on the side near the big window and counter with a trash can at the end. The side nearest the "sink and dw" aka folding table, is at 52"
    The other way is a bit tighter. 33 1/2" on the "stove" side and 42" on the walkway side by the fridge. HTH. (We have put small stools under the overhang in the past, too.) My good computer is being cranky, so I don't have all the floorplans at my disposal right now. But, the middle room looks about like what you designed. : )
    Timeline? Hahahahahahahahahahha. : ) When the upstairs is done, we get to finish down here. DH is wiring and plumbing this week. Hanging drywall next week. So, in a few more weeks. . . we hope to begin.
    But the prelim. plumbing will be done this week in conjunction with the upstairs plumbing.
    We're super motivated to get it done and move on, so we're hoping it will go smoothly and efficiently.

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Uh oh. It was all settled. 'Til we made dinner. Then I realized, only 1 person can stand at that stove if it goes in the SS sink spot. A second person is going to be stuck in the corner by the lowered counter. I don't like getting stuck in corners. Nobody likes being cornered, right?

    Now what?
    -Do we move the stove to the right? And fill in the left hand portion with . . .tile .. .???
    -A different idea?

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Annnnd...A long way to the sink with a pot of boiling water. I am afraid this plan has traffic pattern issues. And no one can bake while someone is cooking, because the baking space and cooking prep space are the same?

    I hate to see you give up kitchen pantry space, because you're low on storage in the main kitchen. Also, a toaster oven inside a base cabinet? That sounds risky?

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We did talk about putting a pot filler near the stove. But not a pot unfiller (!)

    I talked over my distress with DH. He suggested keeping both stoves. "If you think we need six burners now, then we'll probably need 10. If you think we need 2 ovens now, then we probably will need 3," was his line of reasoning.

    He can make me a cutting board that would go over the right side of the drain board on the farm sink, so this would give us more chop space for prep.

    We have the 5'ish counter between the now 2 stoves under the back window for prep, as well as the island. Does that still sound like not enough?
    We're planning a 15" deep by 9' 6" long pantry in the middle room. A storage workhorse.

    A redesign of the island, a bit longer and skinnier, would give us more storage. Bins of veggies underneath on the fridge side is a thought.

    Neither one of us were comfortable with a big pantry by the front door. We must be two claustrophobic peas in a pod. No. . .Wait! That peapod is Too Tight! : )

    Do we need a 3rd sink in the island? Just a leetle one???

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I can see that it helps with number of burners, but why does having 2 stoves help the plan? THere are times when you, as the mom and kitchen manager, will be manning or at least supervising all burners in use, which means running back and forth and really running into traffic. Where is the baking area if you change that area into all prep?

    I reeeally think you'd get used to the pantry wall and love its usefulness...but it's your decision, of course. I just know I don't 'see' anything but function when I'm working in my kitchen. If it adds function and use, I love it.

    Longer skinnier island means placing a sink is tough. Too-Little sinks can sometimes be more trouble than they're worth. Where would you situate it?

  • laughablemoments
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You're right. We'd like to keep the sink out of the island. We figured out we can put it next to the stove, great for spray-filling lg. pots, draining pasta, and getting hot water for the bread mixer right next to it. There's enough room to put a 15" sink in front of the heat run and still retain a straight edge across the front of the run of counter. Yippeeee! : )

    I labeled the prep areas. If I'm cooking all by my lonesome, I can use the one by the back door. Efficiency plus right there. If I'm using both stoves, we're probably canning, which means that stuff is on the stove for an extended stay, and honestly, I'll be all over the kitchen anyway. As one of the girls said today, "Mom, we'll just have to practice saying 'excuse me'." I love my kiddos. ; )

    I reeeally (grinning here) don't think we'd get used to the pantry there. (Similarly, I tried SO hard to convince myself that I'd not mind the cupboard hanging over my head at the SS sink, but no such luck! 2 years of ducking, sigh) We mocked the big pantry up for a few days with poles and sheets, and we were both so glad to have it GONE when we took it down. Having the dish cupboard and counter seems a lot more useful there, to us. I'm ok with my 40 jars of applesauce and 50 jars of tomatoes in the DR, for example, but I'd like my dishes and wrapping-up- the-leftovers counter to be handy to my workzones. : )


    Oh, and that's one ugly curve of a breakfast counter, but drawing it in paint was a real challenge!

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