Yay, mahlgold! It's nice to know I'm not alone in my craziness. I keep telling my DH (who complains about my obsessive sketching) that GRAPH PAPER is cheap. :-)

Hmmm. Trying to draw out the new FR/den (we use it for books & office, and I would like to put a TV in there one day). Might have too much furniture. I probably need to get rid of some of it, anyway. I think I have about 4 chairs, 2 end tables and 1 smallish buffet too many. :-0 Anyone need furniture? lol.

Graph paper is not bad. I think I could build a whole house out of the piles of paper I used, and I should have added a line item into our construction loan budget to pay for all the printer cartridges I used up doing 3D renderings. Those aren't cheap! Graph paper is also cheaper than regrets if you don't get all your plan ideas worked out right! Keep drawing until you're happy.

Mahlgold...Ha Ha...I think you and I started "planning" around here about the same time and I am still in the same situation!

sarschlos...I have a box full of graph layouts and information and spend more
time on this forum than anywhere. My DH just stopped listening to my plans and ideas somewhere down the line! He said he couldn't keep up.

rhome...I hear you about the items purchased while planning, I could have paid for some cabinetry for the cost of my box full of magazines!

Ah, the magazines. Yes, I have a "few" of those myself.

Okay, I can't believe I stayed up doing this AGAIN, but here goes: I am linking to a layout that shows (most) of the house -- excluding the master bedroom and with some funky guestimates for the kids' rooms (they were sleeping; I thought taking my tape measure in there would be a bad idea -- but I DID think about it, lol), so you all can see the current kitchen and family room positions (including the existing windows and slider doors that need to be replaced).

House Layout (Sorry it's sideways; sometimes iphoto doesn't like me)

I am also including a possible layout for the new kitchen in the family room location
Kitchen in Current Family Room Location

And here's what the new family room/office/den would look like.
New family room?

I marked where the soffit currently runs -- we would probably get rid of it since it's a strange thing anyway and it would be nice if the ceiling vaulted like the dining room ceiling. Our plan would also keep the wall between the dining room and new family room (current kitchen) so that we can use it as an extra guest room with a sofa bed (when we have guests, we tend to need at least two rooms). Our main TV is in the "living room," which we use as a family room; no formal rooms in our house! The tv in this room would be mainly for Wii and kids' movies.

And finally, for comparison, here is the last kitchen layout in the current location:
Kitchen Layout Keeping Current Location

Additional info that may be of use: the current kitchen location gets a lot of sun (we live in Orange County Cal) and is pretty centered in the house while the family room is off to the side a bit and gets a lot of shade from the door location, and sun from the corner window location.

What do you think? Would you make the swap, or is it not enough difference to make it worth my while.

Sorry to bump -- apparently I was up too late last night and should have waited until this morning to post my latest brainstorm. Please let me know what you think. TIA!

Problem things I notice:

Looks like you might have quite a bit of traffic through that kitchen if you put it there? YOu have the guest room and a big door that I think goes outside. Anyone heading outside through that door goes right through crucial work areas.

Your island seating will definitely conflict with any activities at the sink and dw, since they overlap.

An 18" cabinet is only 16 1/2" inside...Pretty tight, if at all possible, for a 16" sink.

Not sure you have adequate landing space for your fridge. (Can a builtin fridge go right up next to a wall?) The counter next to it is a bit small and will be blocked by the open door. Any counter across from it is pretty far away.

I'm just not seeing a great advantage, for the kitchen itself, anyway, for swapping the rooms.

Hmmm. So much to think about. I'm surprised you didn't like this one. It feels like a much more interesting space.

I actually think the extra traffic is not necessarily a bad thing. Isn't the kitchen supposed to be the hub of the house? I am planning a double door or a slider that would open on the clean-up side of the kitchen so the island should help direct traffic out of the main work zone.

I was liking this swap because it will be right next to the guest room (which we use on a daily basis as the play room and only about 3-4 times a year as a guest room), the bathroom, the side door and the laundry. I also liked that there is a huge closet already available to convert to a nice big pantry (although I will need to find a new place for the art supplies and games), and that I can get a very nice range feature wall, which I was having a terrible time accomplishing in the current location.

Right now, the laundry is off the family room in a carpeted hallway (weird); the side door is meaningless because it's too far away from the hub to be used EVER, but there is a long trek to the garbage from the back of the house where the kitchen is now, through the front entry, down stairs and around the front to the side of the house. By moving the kitchen, the garbage is just out the side door and down the side stairs. Also makes getting in and out of the garage easier, since the side door is no longer way off in the back nether region of the house.

Right now, the master bedroom is behind the kitchen, and the side door and family room are on the polar opposite side of the house -- thinking ahead to when my wee ones are teenagers, I kind of like having the family room/den noise right next to my bedroom so I can hear what's going on. OTOH, right now, the noise in the master bedroom is limited to the living room (which we actually use as a tv/family room). Maybe that's a good thing?

RE the fridge: not sure whether it can go next to the wall, but I thought I saw someone saying that thermador and sub-zero have special hinges to allow full access even when they're next to the wall. Not sure if that's in my price range, but I definitely want to check it out. If that won't work, that space is big enough to accommodate a standard sized fridge, without the fridge looking out of place, so I could go that route, too. My DH and I just really liked how leftovers don't get lost in the back of the shallower built-ins.

On the landing space issue, the island and the dishes hutch are both 4' (1-2 steps) from the fridge, plus the mw cab next to the fridge. Just not seeing how that is any different from the island situation in the other layout.

Island seating: how is the seating issue different here than in the layout in the current location? I have the seating on the sink/dw side in both layouts. If I'm cleaning up, I'm going to make anyone who has time to sit at the counter get off their behinds and help anyway. :-) If I'm prepping or cooking, I'll be on the other side of the island.

Island sink: I was basing the size on the discussion and pictures between davewg and alku05; could go 24x24, but really wanted an 18" seating area instead of a 12" overhang if possible.

Re the door to the backyard: this is unlikely to be the main door; and we do not exit/enter the house regularly from the backyard except to go in or out to that space (it's not like a back entrance that we would use in lieu of the front entry). The other possibility would be to put a door in the corner where I have the baking supplies cabinet (the current window is a 3.5' floor-to-ceiling single pane window that has to be replaced anyway). I could then extend the cabinet run on the door wall and put the hutch there, and move the dw to the other side of the sink.

You may notice on the general floorplan that I drew out that there are doors to the backyard all along the back of the house; in fact, there are 4 huge doors (master br; current kitchen; current dr; current fr).

I actually do like this "space" better, assuming you can get it to work for you. Bear in mind, everything in this layout may not be better than the other one, BUT...if overall it is a better flow for your family and the overall house, I say go for it.

Couple of things I see:

1)You could flip the frig with the msg center and then you wouldn't have a problem with opening the doors.

2) I think it would be better if you could get your DW on the left side of the sink. While you do have the room there, I just think that when it's open, it will be tight for anyone who may want to pass by that way. On the other side, if it is open, it would be opening into an open space.

3) This is my biggest concern. Seems like alot of walking to get into the DR area with food, drinks, setting the table, etc. Your dishes are on the other side from the DR so for table setting and clean up you will have a long walk. From the refrigerator, carrying drinks, condiments, etc., may be cumbersome. Just seems like many trips back and forth because everything is far from the DR. Would you consider making the opening to the DR larger? Do you really need that coats/org closet? Just something to think about.....

4) Not sure if this makes any difference, but could/would you consider closing up that 6" door. I don't have any great plan for what you would do there, but just thought I'd ask.

Funny you said that about the fridge and mss center; I was just thinking about trying that myself.

Maybe I should flip the range and cleanup centers, so that the cleanup/dishes area is on the wall closest to the DR?

I could close up that 6' door. Was just keeping it so that the exterior has some nice symmetry, but it's not necessary, and actually that's the least desirable access to the backyard because that part of the yard is very shady and tends to get fairly muddy. Perhaps that's a good location for a window seat (moving the baking oven, of course)? I would love a pretty window seat, although my friend has warned me that they are junk collectors.

What if I (1) swap the range & sink locations (and accompanying DW, drawers etc); (2) put the fridge on the wall where the range is now so that it is close to where the backyard door is currently (grr, then it's a long walk to the fridge from the FR and LR; this process can go on forever); What about putting the fridge where the org closet is and the dishes hutch where the fridge is? (oh, I forgot, I was trying to capitalize on the plumbing that is already in that corner); swap the fridge & mess center, swap the sink and range locations, ditch the coat closet to widen the door and put the dishes hutch right there at the doorway. Oh, phooey. Now I need more graph paper! lol.

Flipping the range and cleanup area sound like a good idea. If you do that, you could always put in a pass-thru to the DR, if that interests you. Personally, I'm not a fan, but others here have done them.

I love the idea of a window seat. You would have a nice size one with at least 6" of space. Extra expense though to convert the door to window, etc....but who's counting $'s at this point...LOL!!!

I admire your persistence!!! You'll get there eventually.

I guess I missed that the island seating overlapped the sink and possibly open dw in the old plan. I see that as a negative in either.

I'm not sure I ever understood the 'hub of the house' thing. The heart, maybe, but not a place I want traffic going through to get to somewhere else. Which door will the kids use to run in and out when playing in the back yard? Since it appears that you, the bathroom, and the playroom are handy to it, I was guessing it'd be that door, taking them right through your work areas...muddy feet and all, and at 70 mph. There's no one with narrower focus than a child who's waited almost too long to come in to use the bathroom! ;-)

Partly, I had a hard time reading this latest plan, so couldn't really see get a good handle on the specifics. What caught my eye first is that you had to narrow your island, then, as I said, the traffic issues concerned me. You have more uppers and it just 'felt' more crowded to me.

I count 5 1/2' from fridge to hutch counter and more diagonally to island. I don't think that's as good as 4' straight across. Also, it may be possible to put a builtin fridge next to the wall. I was genuinely asking, because I didn't know....I only know enough about them to know they are WAY out of our price range...Very cool, though.

I can see great positives to being closer to the kids' play room and the outside garbage, and I do like the pantry option much better.

Another thought if you go with this plan...Will you want a more open view of the playroom from the kitchen? I find that my kids like to be able to see me (and it's nice to keep an eye on them), or they will elect to be in the room where I am instead of the play area.

Sarschlos,
I know this thread (and the previous) has been going a while and I havent looked at it before, so I may be saying something you have already decided on earlier, so please disregard if so. But, I looked at your house plan and your floorplan is similar to ours (also a split-level ranch) -- kitchen and dining are similar sizes. We have a big wall of windows where your sliders are, and the only thing I really wish we could have included in our budget was to make these sliders and be able to walk out from kitchen to back deck. Are you sure you want to get rid of the sliders? Could you do an L plus island layout (bigger L than ours below as you have more wall space), and keep them? I guess you have considered this before, but just in case!

Here is our layout -- we have a much smaller cabinet area than in your plans, but I am posting in case this is of any use to you (door on top left is 3-ft french door to dining room):

Good point about the sliders to the back. Do you have a deck and a grill out there? Do you use the backyard for entertaining? It is nice to be able to get food from the kitchen to the backyard easily and not have to maneuver into other rooms. I don't know that I would give it up for "just a window seat". If you really needed the space, that might be a different story.

FINALLY found the side door into the guest bath. My mind isn't having an easy time today twisting the plans so that they're oriented in the same directions...Plus, I have to say, "side door" is written in pretty tiny letters! :-)

What part of the yard do the kids use for playing?...Closest to which room and which of the doors?

If we've discussed this already, I forgot...Do you have a garage and from which door do you bring in groceries?

Lol, Mayland. I'm not sure of ANYTHING at this point. I don't even know which room to put the kitchen in. :-)

I tried an L with an island layout, but others didn't like it (not enough zone separation). Part of the problem is that the water heater is in the kitchen, and eats up precious space on the wall where you have your fridge. Also, I REALLY want a pantry closet, not pantry cabs. By swapping with my current family room, I can take advantage of our current game closet, which is almost 3' deep, and turn it into a very nice step-in pantry. I'm running into different problems in that room, though. :-)

rhome, I'm not saying that I'll be getting a sub-z or thermador. Way too $$$ for me, too (if I had that kind of cash laying around, I would have remodeled BEFORE I moved in, lol). But, I have seen GE profile, monogram, KA, and other CD fridges for not too much more than a standard depth fridge. Also, I plan to shop scratch and dent, ebay, craig's list, and others. Not too worried about a pristine fridge since it's not going to stay that way for too long in my house, anyway.

What if I turn the kitchen door (in the FR location) into a window, and make a door in the playroom where the window is (all of the windows and doors have to be replaced so now is the time to do this)? If I do this, it might improve the symmetry on the exterior. I could leave the door in the master, put in a bay window in the new FR (current kitchen), keep the door in the DR, bay in the new kitchen (current FR), replace the window with a door in the play room/guest room.

I can't think of anyway to make the play room more visible to the kitchen. We want to keep it as a bedroom because it doubles as our guest room, and we don't want the guests to have to go through the kitchen to get to the bathroom that is right next door. Suggestions?

I remembered after suggesting it that you used the playroom for a guest room...

What did you think about the others' deck off the kitchen for bbqing idea? Whether you want to get rid of the door in the kitchen depends on things like that, and the kid-traffic questions. It's all give and take and weighing family and personal priorities. I'd recommend that if you do a deck outside that you access from the kitchen, you'd try to get a 'public' entrance to the deck from another room. But it would be convenient to get to the barbecue and maybe a patio dining spot from the kitchen , if you do, or will do that sort of thing. Otherwise, the door plan you outlined last sounds good, since you are already changing windows and you think it would improve the exterior, too.

Hope you didn't think I was judging your financial choices by my comments on the built-in fridge...Not at all. Just explaining that I was clueless about them.

Sorry about the tiny print! It was very late.

Access to garage & garbage: Currently, the only access point we use is the front entrance. Our garage is underneath the house (it's built on the side of a hill, the garage sits underneath the kids' rooms, and there is no direct access from garage to house. Not sure where I would put it, even if I could, since a staircase would interrupt one of the parking spaces, and I can't extend the structure any further on that side of the property line. The garbage and side door to the garage are both located on the same side (down a set of exterior stairs) as the side door going through the guest bathroom.

Backyard access: There are 4'X 8' brick "step downs" from each of the four existing sliders. We currently have the BBQ backed up against the DR slider because it's broken so we can't open it anyway. Haven't missed that one at all. We almost NEVER use the slider in the master bedroom. Although there is a brick step down, it steps directly onto the grass instead of the patio, and without patio access, it has kind of lost its purpose. Our regular backyard access is from (1) the kitchen and (2) the FR because the kids play in the room where either Mom or Dad is. The best access are the current kitchen and DR locations since this area has the largest portion of the patio off of the brick step downs.

If I eliminate the large slider in the FR (proposed kitchen), that room also has a 3.5' floor-to-ceiling window on the wall where I put the range (the FR is 4' longer than the kitchen, DR and master) that needs to be replaced (I have a baking supplies cab placed there in the layout). This window looks directly onto the good part of the patio, and shares the "step-down" with the DR. We could replace that window with a standard sized door, giving us some kitchen/backyard access, while reclaiming wall space where the slider currently is. If we do that, which wall would be the best location for the range (on which side of the island is the most likely traffic pattern from that door to the bathroom)?

My DD will play by herself in the playroom (that's where her kitchen is), but she definitely tends to carry her toys out to where we are, and the FR gets A LOT of play being right next to the play room and their bedrooms. It is also nicely located between two of the 3 bathrooms, making it an excellent play space for my DD, who has designated one of the bathrooms for #1 and one for #2 (gotta love a 3-year-old mind). The closet I want for my pantry also has been turned into toy/game/arts&crafts storage since our current FR built ins aren't so great.

Here's something else I didn't think about: since the side door is in the bathroom (who thought this looked like a good idea????), maybe we don't want to make that a regularly used access point? How awkward... Any suggestions how to fix that?

No worries at all, rhome! Thank YOU for spending so much of your time trying to help. I only hope I can pay it back/forward some time!

My pleasure...It helps keep me sane, I think, to help with someone else's plans. Would you like to come finish some trim, build or paint cabinets, install baseboard and window/door casing, or help build the deck railing? ;-) (The Feb 1 deadline is ZOOMing up on us...Worse than a little kid who has to go to the bathroom LOL) God willing, I won't EVER need remodeling help once we get into this new house! Guess you can concentrate on paying it forward. Now, out to the house to get some work done.

I guess the question regarding the slider is, do you even want to get rid of it? Unless you really need the space for cabs or appliances, I would probably leave it. No idea what your budget it, but it will be a big expense(I think) to close up that area, put new siding on, add cabinetry or window seat, add new door to exising 3.5' window area. Swinging doors are significantly more expensive than sliders(at least when I priced them out).

Which side of the slider is the side you walk out(when looking at it from the inside), the left or right? If it's the left, people might tend to go straight down where range is currently and make a left into bathroom. If it's the right side, they will probably go on the other side of the island.

The slider currently opens to the right (toward the L), which I thought, with the island, would direct traffic around toward the sink rather than the range wall.

I had intended to keep the door, just make it a little smaller so that it didn't butt up into the corner and would allow me to run cabs to the end (for my baking center with an excellent backyard view), but then everyone seemed to think having backyard access would create too much traffic, so I thought a window seat, but my preference really is to keep it. I haven't decided between keeping it a slider (maybe a French style) or a double door -- I love the look of double doors, but sliders are so easy to use and take up less room. Price may be the deciding factor.

I don't mind a little underfoot traffic in the cleanup zone (I keep their plastic dishes in a drawer in the cleanup area so that the baby can play right where I am), and I do like to be able to access the backyard from the kitchen.

Regardless of the ultimate style, the slider has to be replaced. In fact, every window and door in the house has to be replaced. All of the windows and sliders and doors in this house are (1) single-paned and (2) jammed with no trim whatsoever into corners. Looks really weird; very 1960s, but not in a good, vintage way. And the house is really hard to heat and cool with the windows and doors like they are.

If you're replacing the slider anyway, maybe you would want to center it on that wall. You can have the opening on whichever side you would want the traffic to flow, although I think everyone's inclination would be to go to the left when you walk into the kitchen from the outside. Quickest route to the bathroom.

Not sure how big your laundry room/linen closet is, but any chance of relocating your guest bath to there and then put your laundry room where the guest bath is(at least there's plumbing in each of those room). Then you wouldn't have the issue with your side door opening into the bathroom.

Ah, well. Back to reality. Talked to a GC today. Swapping rooms is WAY out of my budget. So, back to the original layout. Going to price out a possible 4' bump for the kitchen, at least, but most likely I need to stay within the 16'X14' footprint, especially since I need to replace windows and doors.

Harumph. Oh well. Fantasy was fun for a day. Now I need to go ask around about some cabinets that are more in my price range, too. :0

Just curious....what made it out of your price range? Moving the plumbing and gas lines? Adding the electrical outlets?

bump

Oh, sorry. We were out yesterday and I missed this. Went to Expo to check out their design services. He seemed to think that it would cost at least $120,000 to swap rooms since we would be redoing two rooms instead of just the one. (We're in So. Cal. so prices are pretty high to begin.)

Wow...What was he including in his #? Furniture, etc for the new FR? Moving the plumbing, electrical into the new kitchen and I guess closing it all of in the new FR. Did that include the cabs and appliances as well? I have heard that Expo is very expensive. Maybe find a GC who can come to your house. Are you sure you want to give up based on a quote from Expo? You were so excited.

Oh, that was a quote from an independent GC.

Went to Expo afterward, but got stuck with a "KD" that barely spoke English, didn't know what an Aga was (even though Expo sells them), and when I said "retro" she took me to look at a set up with tons of detailing, corbels, and bells and whistles. Since they wouldn't even give me a quote until I paid a $750 non-refundable deposit, I said I'd have to think about it.

I'm going to call a couple more GCs, but I will probably stick with the current floor plan and just buy some wall space by reducing the size of all those huge sliders. I realized last night that if I swap the rooms, I will need to add a powder room, since the only guest bath would now be at the back of the house behind the kitchen.

Okay, here are the latest two attempts using a peninsula. The first one has the sink on the window wall, which is prettier from the dining room, but the work flow gets a little bit wonky with the cleanup zone in the middle of the prep area, and the fridge on the other side of the room. Option #2 has the sink on the peninsula with good separation of work zones, but then the sink faces the dining room.

(All of the wall cabs would go to the ceiling in the peninsula version) Thoughts?

Option 1
Option 2

BTW -- not sure about the size for the corner pantry -- couldn't tell if a 48X48 pantry would include the wall/framing, or the interior space. I have it done for interior space, but may need to make the message center 24" instead of 30" and the tray cab 18" to accommodate the drywall/framing for a 4' corner pantry.

Nice! I can see advantages to both. I'd probably end up with the sink under the window so I could have the bigger counter at the peninsula free for big baking projects (with kids on all sides), homework and visiting in a splash-free zone, gift wrapping, and other projects for bigger surfaces. Of course, there's the table right there, too... I'd still want the peninsula for baking, though.

One problem: The recommendation is to have 5 ft between 2 seating areas where you only have 3 1/2 ft. I think you can fudge on the recommendation, but maybe not that much, especially for a main path into the kitchen.

Well, I think this might just be the winner. Uh, oh. Now what am I going to do all night? :-)

I am definitely liking the peninsula, and agree that I want the sink under the window somehow. Question: would you do see-through hanging cabs over the peninsula for further space definition or go with the hutch off to the side?

As far as the clearances, those are the clearances we have now. The table is only 36" from the wall that is there; it's squeezy, but okay. We could move the buffet up or down the wall a bit to make some extra room, but it's one of those low, long buffets (no top china cab) from the 1940s, and might look weird off center from the table. I think we may actually have the table a wee bit closer to the buffet than I have depicted. Also, it would be rare that we would have people sitting at the counter and on that side of the table at the same time. I can see the peninsula becoming the "kids' table" at holidays, but that's about it. We will be putting in a large desk/bookcase area in the family room for computer stations for both DH and the kids (I use a laptop and prefer to work on the sofa).

Sarah -- from my perspective (and knowing the way I use our kitchen) I think layout 1 is preferable. You may be nothing like us, but we have a drying rack next to the sink and you wrote you have babies, so I don't know if you're using bottles with them. ??? Even though I nurse, we still have sippy cups which we leave on the drying rack (they seem to come out of the dishwasher really wet). I wouldn't want to look at that all the time, let alone all the other detritus of cleaning up. It would make me depressed ....

You may be a fastidious family (some are! we are not), but for that reason alone I wouldn't want the sink on the peninsula.

I also think rhome has a wonderful point about having an uninterrupted countertop on the peninsula which you can use from both sides. When your children are older think how great it'll be to cook / do sundry projects with them there. That's one of the things we like about our narrow island (which I explained in your other thread): our 3.5 year-old stands on his "control tower" (a Learning Tower) on one side of the island (or one of its ends) with me either opposite or kitty-korner, and we find it works really well.

You're doing a great job.

It depends on how open you want your kitchen. There are some wonderful examples of using cabinets for dividing the rooms, but I think it could also limit and/or block the view of the kids sitting at the peninsula?

In your pantry, I think you'll probably only want the L-shaped shelves. The little ones that return on the sides will block your access and not add much benefit. It's a tiny thing, but something I just noticed.

Well,

I may be biased, cuz (other than your kitchen being wider than my 10.5' wide one)your layout #1 looks an awful lot like mine!

I have another entry door into kitchen where you have your pantry, but other than that...

So, having lived in that layout for a few weeks now, I can tell you what I've observed...

You won't be able to reach anything in your 'glass hutch' from inside the peninsula_ you don't want anything on the wall past where the counter meets the peninsula. Is that bumpout all windows? Is that why you don't have any uppers there? (Yup- just rechecked, and yes it is). Are you not planning on a second lazy susan in that corner? It looks like lost space to me. I would lose the upper on the end of the peninsula. (You could always add it later if you really needed it)It's going to cut your view out window from the peninsula and the dining room, and it's going to be really hard if not impossible to reach anyways.

Your kitchen is wider than mine, you have 11 ft between fridge and counter, I have less than 6 ft. For me, that distance is perfect for working at peninsula, you may find it's too many extra steps. Having said that, I have more length from sink to peninsula than you do, and it's not too far.

Thanks, raehelen. This layout is actually very similar to the kitchen in my previous house, with a few improvements (like better separation of cleanup and prep areas).

Regarding the hutch: It's not an upper cab, it would be a hutch that goes all the way to the counter, with glass cabs to add reflective interest next to the window, and accessible from both the DR and kitchen. Not sure I understand why you think it would be any more difficult to reach than the wall cab in the other corner, which I know is accessible since that's where we kept our dishes in our old house. View of old kitchen from peninsula corner We had the phone/message area on that wall and had no problems with reach even though the counter was raised (we are not tall people, either).

My biggest concern with this layout is actually whether 12" between the DW and the peninsula will give me enough room to put dishes away and whether I want the garden window. I DID have trouble reaching to clean the counter behind the sink in the garden window.

Not worried about blocking the view out the Kitchen window from the DR, since the DR will also have an 8' glass door to the same view. But I DO like the hutch there to shield the view of the messy cleanup and prep areas from the DR.

Regarding the sink/fridge: Our kitchen currently looks like this: Before Pic.

You can see the faucet for the current sink sticking up slightly. The refrigerator, which doesn't fit in the existing refrigerator space is on the opposite side of the room where the breakfast table is meant to be. It takes me exactly 4 steps from fridge to the prep space on the wall behind the sink.

The corner space in the peninsula will be a cab accessible from the DR where I will store seldom used items such as bread baskets, seasonal items, party dishes, etc. I did not want a second lazy susan as they are expensive and not ideal storage.

Another about face. I talked to the design-build guy who is going to put together the plans/drawings for me. He really wants me to get a tankless water heater that installs embedded between the studs on the exterior wall (next to the gas meter and electric circuits) to get the water heater out of the room. He also said that the ceiling in the kitchen can be vaulted to match the dining room without monkeying with load bearing beams. SOOO --

I'm now thinking an L kitchen with a big island and the corner pantry. This would enable me to make the range feature wall that I wanted. I'm going to talk to him about it again tonight, so hopefully I will soon have some REAL drawings to run by you folks.

On the downside, he seemed to think this was going to be a VERY expensive project because there are a lot of infrastructure issues like changing plumbing, reframing the ceiling, moving vents, and changing out electrical (he said he saw some fabric-encased wiring -- yikes), replacing doors and windows, so it may take me a lot longer to make this project a reality. But in 10 years (lol), I'll have a great space.

On the bright side, he said the hideous mirrors that are glued over my fireplace wall in the living room are actually covering ... RED BRICK!!! Yay! So, assuming the previous owners didn't ruin the brick when they decorated in 1983, I may be able to get a lovely fireplace feature wall in my living room with minimal expense. Makes me wonder if the painted bricks on the exterior part of the fireplace are also red brick.

Can paint be removed from brick and does anyone know how to remove @#$@#$ mirror panels safely?

The best way to remove mirror panels safely is to get a glass company to come do it. They might know how best to get the adhesive off brick too.

So, I gather when you say VERY EXPENSIVE, that you guys are not DIYers? All the issues you listed, we did ourselves, so even though wiring is now more expensive, and electrical permits cost $$$, we saved LOTS.

Guess it really boils down to what you can afford vs what you need, and then what you'd like gets sprinkled into the mix. My motto through our Reno has been, "In a Renovation, ANYTHING is possible".

Sounds like you have really been twirling lots of ideas around. Have you written down what your priorities are? What your Ultimate vision is? When we went through multiple changes, sometimes I forgot what I had originally wanted. ie, not so much that I changed my mind about things, but actually FORGOT what I had planned. It sounds simplistic, but particularly in your case, where you have gone back and forth, details can get lost.

Trust me, I've been writing. :-0 and I have a definite vision. I also have my inspiration file, and it is pretty darn consistent. It generally involves a collected look with a stained wood island, painted perimeter (or at least upper) cabs, a range feature wall and lots and lots of view to the backyard. The peninsula was not my vision, but a compromise to try to fit the space with the w/h and sufficient storage.

We can DIY some of it, but not all. With 2 babies running around our TIME is fairly limited and we can't be without a kitchen for the year or so it would take us to do the job, so with contractors we would be buying time. Also, it's an old house so we are guaranteed to have asbestos and lead issues that I really want the professionals to handle. This is our forever (or until we can't go up the stairs anymore) house, so we want to do it right.

How big are the mirror pieces?

They're very large -- From the top of the fireplace opening (less than 3 feet off the floor) to the vaulted ceiling.

Yikes. I had an entire wall of 1 ft mirror tiles to remove once, and I thought that was bad!

Yes. It's definitely what I would call "bad." The previous owner was very proud of it, of course, but gadzooks, what an eyesore.

I asked around: Apparently you can remove paint from brick but it's a nasty, nasty job. Maybe one for pros while you and the kids go a-visitin' :) It involves heavy chemical strippers and maybe powerwashing. The problem is that paint gets into the pores. Getting it out without sanding down the brick (sandblasting) is the trick. And you might want to or need to get them repointed when it's done since the paint removal can damage the mortar.

But it can be done :)

That's why painting brick should be a crime. ;-) It'd be SO much work, then maybe not look that great, to remove the paint. Maybe some type of faux paint job or refacing with thin brick might be easier? In our last house the basement fireplace was cinderblock painted white, and when we fixed up the rec room to sell, the fireplace needed an inexpensive makeover, too. I painted it all a taupe color, then rolled on a brick/burgundy color with some gray and taupe subtly blotted in...just on the block faces without going into the mortar, so it gave the appearance of brick with mortar lines. It wasn't as cheesy-looking as I was afraid it might appear! If you decided to make it look like light brick, you could paint through the mortar lines, too, and not try to fake that part.

Ugh. How annoying to have a red brick fireplace and have to do a faux treatment to make it look like brick. Makes me think of that awful episode of Trading Spaces where (Doug?) built that frame to cover up the owners' beloved brick fireplace. Made the woman cry and the DH said, "All I see is kindling," or something along those lines.

I think I saw some antique brick company that cuts them into thin pieces so that they can be used to make a facade. Maybe I'll look into that. Sounds $$$, though. Grrr. I also have a room where they wallpapered directly to the drywall without priming/painting first. UGH.

It wasn't so bad to do it to concrete block (I don't even like faux painting stuff on anything), but I understand your pain about having the 'wrecked' red brick. Do more checking before you give up.

I will definitely do more checking. And those @#$@#$@#$ mirrors are coming down! Maybe the glue and stuff will give the bricks an aged look. The problem with this is that I will never know what I'm up against until I take all the junk off, and by that time, I'm committed to finishing the project.

Whose bright idea was it to by an old home to fix up, anyway? Oh, yeah. It was mine. lol.

Our previous house had a 2 sided natural rock fireplace
that was totally painted white.
We hired sandblasters, they framed in the whole thing
with plastic sheeting and blasted away.
What they couldn't get out of the cracks, etc. my DH
and I scraped away.
It was a huge and messy undertaking, but the fireplace
was restored back to its beauty.
THEN....we sold they house and the new owners framed and
drywalled in the whole thing!!

Beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder!

LOL, vicnsb. As far as I can tell, the paint is only on the exterior portion of the fireplace. The inside appears to be brick, possibly with drywall over it, then mirrors glued to the drywall. So at least the sandblasting part would be outside, but I'm concerned about removing the mirrors since it's a carpeted area where the baby crawls around and I'm worried about little pieces of glass.