trying this again:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/109132896@N07

(bigger link, but I still can't get it to post!)

Here you go:

The fridge seems far away. Why not put in next to the freezer?

At the very least, switch the fridge and the freezer. I understand the desire to have it close to the dining and great room areas for people to access for drinks or snacks, but it is too far away for the cook to get at as needed when cooking.

What is your plan for that bottom wall? Snack center? Will you have some food storage there since it seems quiet a walk to the pantry. I also think you could get away with the aisle there being a little bit less. I have 45" in front of my fridge and a person can get by with another one digging in the fridge. But, it's a french door style. I still think if you could add a couple inches to the width of the island, you'd be glad to have it for prep space opposite the range.

Small changes, it's a pretty good plan, IMO.

I like the little bit of counter for set space between the fridge and freezer. If possible, I would swap the 2 to bring the fridge closer to the kitchen. Unless you are like us, always popping up and down for milk, ketchup, the forgotten applesauce, etc. Then keep the fridge closer to the table. ; )

Are your aisle widths accounting for the overhang of the countertops?

It looks like a nice efficient layout and a pleasure to be in as a family.

Best wishes.

Thank you, Flying_C, for posting my pic!
(and thanks to everyone else, too, for the input so far!)

Re: the refrigerator/freezer, we're planning on the Frigidaire or Electrolux "twins", so can't switch door swing. We'd considered small pantries on each side, but weren't sure it left us enough space between - controlfreakecs was right, we are planning a breakfast/snack area there.

Aisle widths don't include overhangs - do they seem reasonable? Should I have more space between the island and sink/range walls? I'd love to widen the island, but am not sure I'd have room given our 32" fridge and freezer doors.

Where will the cook prep? The prep sink is nice for someone working on the bottom long side of the island, but space alongside it is minimal facing the stove. Have you tried this layout and liked it? Disciplined enough to chop onions, celery, bell pepper, etc., etc. in 26 or so inches of space, then push it all back to make room for other prep? I note there is a wonderful large work counter under the corner windows that even has a water supply to its left...

I mention this because I've noticed over the years that kitchen layouts shape my "decisions" about where I'll work. While we were planning to build our house, I spent a year usually prepping in 17" next to the stove and ignoring a 6' counter behind me, closer to the fridge technically but not actually next to anything. I wouldn't have guessed that ahead of time, for sure.

Regarding refrigerator placement, the twins look great, but the inconvenience of the current layout would cause me to reconsider. A personal thing, of course, but...all that way back and forth just because the sauce needs another splash of cream, there may be another tomato in the bin, whoops the recipe called for 3 eggs, not 2?

And how about returning everything TO the refrigerator after letting enough gather to make the trek? Hugging bottles, egg carton, lettuce, etc., to the chest?

Putting aside the overall layout, what caught my eye was the placement of the trash/recycling cabinets and the dishwashers. I just don't understand why they are put where they are.

Re trash/recycling: the trash on the island is indicated to be on the opposite side from the prep sink, so you'd have to go around the island to use it -- or maybe the prep sink is oriented the wrong way? As drawn now, it looks like you would wash veggies at the prep sink, then either 1) put them on a cutting board to the left of the sink to chop and finally circle around the island to toss remnants, or 2) stand at the short side of the island to chop, meaning you would reach over the sink to deposit the veggies on the cutting board, then chop and reach around the island to open the trash/recycling area to toss stuff. Your second trash/recycling area is between your fridge and your freezer -- why is it located there? I personally would rather have it by the clean up area so that I could toss trash and rinsed out plastic straight into the right spot. I guess you could use the one on the island for that, but neither of them seems optimally located.

Then, the second dishwasher is in the island opposite the first and I would think you wouldn't be able to open them both at the same time because the doors would run into each other. So no having one person unloading the dishwasher while the other works in any way that involves putting dirty dishes in the available one. The dishwasher on the island also seems like it would be a pain to load from the clean up sink. You'd be twisting around and dripping water as you load it.

Think peninsula, not island. Attach the island to the left of the sink, and you can now access the fridge without doing a ring around the rosy.

Buy appliances that fit a working layout, don't try to fit your layout to the appliances unless you absolutely have to. That is my thoughts on the fridge/freezer. That would never work for me, having to walk all the way down to the end of that run to get to the fridge while cooking.

Aisles will actually be 1.5" less than shown, when counters are taken into consideration. So the bare minimum of 42" on 2 sides, and about 52" at the snack counter. Hmm... That would make it tough to enlarge the island for sure.

As Rosie pointed out, that 26" or so across from the range and next to the prep sink is pretty small for a main prep area, despite the fact that its location and the water source would otherwise be ideal. You really want 36" of clear counter in that location. It's the same reason I suggested narrowing the aisles just a bit. I think you could get away with 48" in front of the fridge, but I definitely wouldn't' go less than that, and 50 or the 52 shown would be better. I don't know if it is possible to find that space since it is new construction. It would be worth looking into and considering.

The trash/recycling makes sense to the way I work. One where the kids are unwrapping granola bars and string cheese (or frozen pizzas, or whatever) and another one between prep and clean up, accessible by both areas. I think those are actually pretty good.

If you can load a plan of the entire first floor, that would help us see if a bigger change would be a better use of the space you have.

Don't get discouraged. I think this is actually an excellent first attempt with your cooking, prep, clean-up and snack zones well separated.

Editing to say that I didn't even notice the second DW. It is not a good spot, IMO. The twisting will get old fast. Ideally you should have one on each side of the main sink.

This post was edited by controlfreakecs on Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 14:18

rosie, I'd antipated prepping on the island (short end, or around the corner opposite the main sink. This would be "main prep", with baking prep on the long end of the island opposite the fridge/freezer wall.), but you're right that the counter between the range and main sink will be an appealing spot. If we end up prepping there, how would change the layout?

beasty - re: trash & dishwashers, I'm definitely open to suggestions. We have 2 dishwashers in our current home - and while we definitely want 2 in the new kitchen, too, we don't typically have them open at the same time. I'd love to have them on both sides of the clean-up sink, but don't have room on the right-hand side.

With one dishwasher in the island, I thought that trash would work for clean-up (as well as prep). i'd planned for the other to be trash from the breakfast/snack area, as well as paper recycling.

GreenDesigns, you may be right, but I'm tired of running around my current peninsula, so it's an island or nothing for the new house!

It sounds like most would prefer moving the refrigerator next to the freezer, and I suppose that the breakfast/snack area would still "work" on the other side.
Re: location of the dishwashers/trash pullouts, I'd love additional input!

mommytoC

This post was edited by mommytoc on Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 14:44

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I could probably move the double window and main sink over to put the second dishwasher right of the sink - but, this would only give me 4" between the dishwasher and corner - would this work, or is dishwasher #2 better left in the island?

Does the sink have to be under the window? The "sink under the window" paradigm is a holdover from when people spent far, far more time at the sink than they do today - remember, very few people had DWs until probably the 80s (maybe late 70s). Until then, you hand washed everything - so people spent a lot of time at the sink. Times have changed pretty dramatically with DWs - most people spend very little time hand washing dishes today so the bulk of the work/time in the kitchen has shifted to prepping. It's not just dishes, either - MWs, speedcook ovens, etc. have also changed how we cook. However, many design ideas that people cling to today were developed decades earlier - in the pre-DW/pre-MW days.

Today, people spend far more time prepping (70% or more) than cleaning up (20% or less)...which means the most time is spent working next to the sink, not at the sink. So putting the window in front of the wall and the workspace in front of the window sometimes makes more sense - especially if the overall functionality of the kitchen is affected by it.

Are doors set? Could the porch doorway move to the left a bit?

Your island is a "barrier island" to the most likely Pep Zone - b/w the sink and cooktop/range. There just isn't enough counterspace on that island in the right place to make it easy to prep at.

"...I'm tired of running around my current peninsula, so it's an island or nothing for the new house! ..."

All you've done here is change from running around a peninsula to running around an island. If you're tired of running around the peninsula, you will quickly become tired of running around the island.

Peninsulas actually work well if they aren't too long. The shorter length reduces the "running around" dramatically.

What's hurting you is your choice of appliance - a refrigerator for which you cannot switch the door swing - unless you're willing to move the refrigerator to the range/cooktop wall and the oven(s) to the bottom wall..

BTW...are you planning a range + wall oven + MW or is that a cooktop + double wall ovens? It looks like a range...

buehl, thanks for weighing in!

The sink doesn't "have" to be under the window, and could certainly move left. I drew one iteration with the sink moved, and dishwashers on both sides of the sink. There's a trade-off, though - proximity (to the sink) vs. having dishwasher #2 crowd the corner between the main sink and range, and losing width for my hutch. I'm not sure which version I prefer...

I'll see about moving the porch door - I don't have much room (to steal from the banquette area), at most 9-12", and there is a structural panel shown there now.

I'm open to moving the refrigerator (close to the freezer), or swapping with the speed oven/wall oven stack (I'm planning a rangetop.) I'd never considered having the refrigerator in that spot - I'll draw it up, and see what it does to our family's "work-flow".

Again, thanks (everyone!) for the input! I'll print out the various versions today, and look at my work zones in each one.

mommytoC

This post was edited by mommytoc on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 9:33

Regarding work path obstacles, one way to visualize this is to draw the most frequently traveled work paths and note obstacles. For example, work paths include: fridge-sink, sink-prep, prep-fridge, prep-cooktop, cooktop-sink.

A good goal is that islands/peninsulas or other obstacles should not intersect these paths by more than 12". That is, you shouldn't have to divert more than 12" from a straight line to traverse any of these paths.

This post was edited by GauchoGordo1993 on Wed, Nov 20, 13 at 18:44

Here's an option....

• First, note that I made two changes to structural items:

  • The door to the screened in porch has been moved to the left 9"

  • The windows have been moved 12" to the left
    
    These two moves give you more space for the DW without trapping it in the corner. There are 12 inches b/w the right DW and the corner. The Dish Hutch is still 42" wide.

  If you find you cannot move the door 9" but can still move it 3" to 6", then the Dish Hutch could be reduced to 36" or 39". Both are still respectable sizes and will hold a lot of dishes & glasses.

• Speaking of the Dish Hutch, the upper cabinet goes to the counter and is 13" deep to accommodate dinner plates. That extra 1" of depth shouldn't take too much away from the counter in front of the upper cab, but it will make a difference in what you can store in it.

• This plan gives you plenty of prep space where you need it and where it will be most useful and natural to prep

  • Primary Prep Zone: 45" on the island directly across from the rangetop. The prep sink is right next to it for a water source.
  • Secondary Prep Zone: 51" (12" + 21" + 18") b/w the corner and the rangetop to the left of the rangetop. The cleanup sink is nearby - it's not as close as the sink is in the primary Prep Zone, but it is easy to get to - assuming no one is trying to load/unload the DW while you're working there. [These two reasons are why it's the secondary and not the primary Prep Zone.]
  • The counterspace on either side of the cleanup sink would also work as a prep space, but only for occasional use as that counter will most likely be taken up with the needs of the Cleanup Zone - and the DWs are in the way.

• The trash pullout next to the rangetop is situated so that it will be easily accessed from both Prep Zones and the Cooking Zone; it's also not too far from the Cleanup Zone.

  Alternatively, it could be located in the island across from the rangetop - but it may not be as easy to get to it from the Cleanup Zone - but it might be OK there as long as it's on the far end from the prep sink (so there is a 24" cabinet b/w the prep sink base and the trash pullout).

  As to its location in the Prep & Cooking Zones - far more trash and recyclables are generated while prepping and cooking than while cleaning up and since prepping and cooking combined are the lion's share of time spent in the kitchen (>80%) - you're also generating the trash/recyclables for a longer period of time. So, the trash pullout is best located in the Prep and Cooking Zones.

• Both DWs are next to the cleanup sink. It is much better ergonomically to have them next to the sink than it is to have them in the island where you have to twist and turn to load dishes.

• The refrigerator has been moved to the right wall so it's accessible from both Prep Zones and the Cooking Zone without having to run...

Nice work buehl.

Wasn't someone asking recently for the ideal, no compromises layout? This looks like the answer. Pretty sure I'm never building, but bookmarking this just in case.

I just saved this layout to reference, as well. : )

Mommytoc, do you have a pantry planned somewhere? I don't remember seeing that mentioned, but maybe I missed it.

buehl - I love it!!! How can I thank you enough, for helping me "have it all"...and a message center, too :)!!!

I'll check the Electrolux specs, and see if I need filler by the freezer, too.

laughable - I have a walk-in pantry, just "around" the corner" in the mudroom, behind the refrigerator/range wall. It should be convenient for prep and cooking, and I'll keep breakfast items in the snack zone (convenient for that rushed meal).

buehl - thank you again!!! (and thanks to everyone else too!).

mommytoC

duplicate

This post was edited by GauchoGordo1993 on Fri, Nov 22, 13 at 12:06

Buehl's suggestions look very nice. I'm glad you think you're making good progress, Mommytoc.

Thanks to all of you for all the compliments! I've been having a rough day at work and just stopped by for a much needed break - you made my day! :-)

Mommytoc - I'm glad you like it!