What is the scale of the graph paper? It appears to be neither 1:1 ft. or 1:6 in. Is there any way you can change it to be 1:1? It is so much easier for us.

Also, please post a plan of the whole flooor the kitchen is on, and if you could, please post pictures of the kitchen as it is now. It would help to visualize all the entrances and exits from the room.

The island is blocking access to the fridge from anywhere in the primary work zones, which is going to get old fast. Plus generally if your island is that small and narrow, it is a sign that it's not the best possible use of the space. That makes the peninsula by far the more functional layout of these two, but it is really a one-cook kitchen, and given your needs, you really want at least two good work stations.

It is hard to tell without scale, but if you are intending that stools should be at the peninsula overhang (which should be 15" deep if it is counter height), I don't think you have the space to have the table. You need 60" of space for chairs back to back for it to be comfortable for people to sit and slide their chairs in and out.

Plus, with the removal of the half wall, you want to leave good clearance in front of that drop-off so people don't accidentally fall down it, and that gives you even less room for the table-next-stools. Are you sure you don't want to replace the wall with a railing or something so clearance space isn't needed?

I am positive that we can come up with a better layout for you. Just so I have a handle on the structural limitations of the room:

1) Can the door to the porch be made smaller and/or moved down so it is next to the half wall? Is it a slider or do I need to account for door swing?

2) Can the window above the sink be made bigger? Or if there is no second floor, are skylights an option? Without seeing pictures of the space, my guess is it is a bit dark and would get more so if the porch door is not a glass door and/or is made smaller.

3) Could the door to the garage be moved down so it is in the corner where the pantry is in the floorplan with the peninsula?

Also, you have a zillion appliances, which is always at the expense of storage and constricts layout options. Are they just suggestions by the KD, or did you ask for all of them? Seems like you don't need a warming drawer for anything your microwave, steam oven, and regular oven couldn't cover. And why the fridge drawers separate from the fridge? Why not just a bigger fridge? It looks as if you are considering a 36", which should be sufficient for a family of your size anyway.

I'm not sure what the scale is. It's whatever the NKBA Virtual Planning Tool is set to, and it doesn't seem like there's any way for me to adjust it. I think 1 square = 8". Is there a better tool I should use to plan it out?

Here are photos of the current kitchen.

We intended to use backless stools at the peninsula. This is a rough sketch of how we planned to do kitchen seating:

The triangle table would have a bench and swivel chairs, none of which would need to be moved in or out. There would be no back-to-back given it's triangle shape. We did mock ups and I don't remember the measurements exactly, but I want to say that we'd have at least 12" between the bench and the step down (if not 18"), and at least 24" between the corner of the table and a pulled out bar stool. I can try to go over and measure again tomorrow.

We are open to replacing the wall with a railing. We wanted to get rid of it first, so that we could see down into the room and our kids could see up into the kitchen. Then we could see if we're happy with it open or if we want to put a railing there.

1) The door to the porch is a glass sliding door. I would imagine it can be made smaller or moved, but I don't know what structural changes would be necessary to make that happen, nor how much that would cost.

2) Likewise, I imagine the window over the sink can be made bigger (at the cost of several thousand). There is a second floor. The kitchen is a bit dark, with most of the light coming in via the porch glass door.

3) I don't know that the door to the laundry room (and from there to the office and garage) can be moved over. I'll have to investigate that next time I'm at the house.

We asked for the appliances, mostly based on things GW folks liked in their own kitchen.

The under-counter fridge is for beer. We have no basement, so my thinking is that the beer can sit in a cabinet or it can sit in a beer fridge, so why not put it in the fridge to keep it at cellar temp?

The warming drawer we just thought would be convenient to keep food warm until my wife comes home from work.

And we're considering replacing our current 36" with a counter-depth 36" to not block the passage (our current fridge is a monstrous 38" deep, and would go to the laundry room or garage once we can afford to buy a built-in / integrated fridge).

This post was edited by Timobkg on Thu, Nov 6, 14 at 23:56

I added photos of the current kitchen to the above post, and made all the images in my previous posts clickable to view the full size image to make them easier to view (whoops, I missed that part of your guide, Jillius).

Oh, that was all very helpful, thank you. I can make do with the graph paper scale as-is. I am not sure what program other people use other than scanning actual graph paper with a hand-drawn picture on it or drawing directly on an image of graph paper, which I have done. I usually edit already provided layouts more than I produce originals, so I am not the expert in this area. You might see if user buehl has mentioned somewhere what program he/she uses.

One last question: what is the distance from the edge of the sliding glass door to the half wall?

Too many gadgets at the expense of actual utility. If you want that much stuff, you need a bigger house. Certainly a bigger kitchen and eating area. Scale down your wants to fit with the scale of the space.

Would you be willing to explain why you want a triangular table? It seems awkward and I'd think you'd end up with much more usable space with a round table.

Your current kitchen is very nice looking, congratulations on your new one!

Some thoughts - if you replace the window over the sink, bring it all the way down to counter height. I'm attaching a few pictures of how this can look. I wish we'd done this when we bumped ours out (another option for more light). This shows both the inside and the outside of the house, for the bumped out window.

I'm leaning towards the peninsula versus the island. Where will your prep area be in both versions? Where will you keep your cutting boards and knives? You will want trash near this area. Speaking of trash, can you figure out how to put trash at the end of the peninsula? Otherwise, you will always have people in your work area. Imagine making an omelet in both scenarios.

In your option with a peninsula, you won't be able to open the trash can and the dishwasher at the same time. I just don't think that would work for most folks when cleaning up after mealtime.

Not good with layouts, but I would reconsider that triangular table. I don't see how it would work for a family of 5. Also, is it bar-height? Really hard with kids.

You have more appliances than Sears and less storage than an Alexander McQueen clutch. Pare down!

Thanks for the advice so far! You've convinced us that the island layout above is right out.

Jillius, the distance between the sliding door and the half wall is 31". The half wall is 9" deep. Here's a sketch I did of the current room dimensions (not exactly to scale). Doorway and window measurements include the moulding.

l I could buy some graph paper and make some sketches to scale on that if it would be helpful. I also just downloaded Google Sketchup and will try to find some time to play around with that in case that's better.

The triangular table is just something we saw and liked. It's a slightly curved 53" equilateral triangle with the altitude also being 53" due to the curve. It can fit 2 to a side, 6 total. We currently have the kids eat earlier, with my wife and I eating later. We also like watching a show while we eat, and this table lets 2-4 people watch the TV in the family room. It is bar height, which would pose some challenge to our younger kids.

I imagine that the prep area would be to the left of the sink. I think we would keep our cutting boards to the left of the sink with our pots and pans under the cooktop. To the right of the sink would be the secondary prep area / cleaning area. The peninsula would be the baking / tertiary prep area. Our current kitchen in our current house is tiny, with only a prep / baking / clean up area, a tiny secondary prep area, and a tiny microwave area, so having zones is rather new to us.

The trash pull out on the inside would put it closer to these prep areas. We could put it on the outside of the peninsula. I don't think that would bother us during prep. We have a garbage disposal, so most food waste would go in the sink. It would let us have the trash and dishwasher open at the same time, and make trash more accessible for those outside the kitchen.

We do like appliances. The under-counter beer fridge takes the place of keeping the beer in a base cabinet with roll out shelves, so it's a wash storage wise. The microwave drawer is to get the microwave off the counter for more counter space and a cleaner look. The warming drawer we just thought would be more convenient for keeping food warm than using the ovens.

How much beer are you storing at any one time? Why not just get a 42" fridge instead of a 36" plus an under counter one? Is there any reason why the beer couldn't be stored elsewhere in the house, like the garage or in a built-in buffet in the living or dining rooms?

It's not just that so many appliances are taking up so much storage space in your kitchen. It is also that it's going to look like an appliance showroom. It will just be busy and not that attractive and certainly make the space look a bit stuffed and odd to have acres and acres of appliance.

What might look better is:

1) Have range with a cooktop, one oven, and a warming drawer as one unit.

2) Have a wall steam oven and the microwave stacked as one wall unit.

3) Have either one 42" fridge or a 36" fridge and beer fridge somewhere other than in the kitchen.

4) Have a dishwasher.

That takes you from 7 separate appliance locations to 4.

Also, I'm sorry, I thought you'd already posted this, but I just realized I still don't have a floor plan for the whole floor the kitchen is on. Could you please post that?

I'm big into craft beer. In our current kitchen I'd have about 6 cases out on shelves so that I can pick the beer that best compliments the meal or the mood, with more cases in storage nearby. In the new kitchen I was hoping to pair that down to a beer fridge that would keep the beer at 55 degrees, rather than the 37 degrees of a standard fridge or the 68+ of room temp.

I'm not too concerned about the look of the appliances. Having a cooktop and hood on one wall, a dishwasher on another, and a microwave on the peninsula doesn't seem like too much to me.

We have a range now, and want to separate the appliances out. The warming drawer in the range is too small to be useful, and having it on the floor makes it inconvenient to use even if it was larger. Having the oven on the wall rather than under the cooktop makes it much easier to use, eliminating the bending down required with a range, and lets one person bake while the other cooks without constantly getting into each other's way. And this way we can store all our pots and pans right under the cooktop.

Besides, the wall oven and steam oven are designed to be stacked together, while the microwave doesn't match at all. I think it would look worse having two non-matching appliances stacked in a wall cabinet. And I like having the microwave out away from the other stuff so that our kids could use it without getting in our way.

We planned to panel the warming drawer and fridge, and could panel the beer fridge as well, so that the only appliances jumping out at you on the long wall would be the oven stack.

I still need to measure and sketch out the other rooms, and will post a floor plan of the first floor once I do.

Here is our first floor layout:

This post was edited by Timobkg on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 15:04

So you don't have a door directly from the kitchen to dining? What is the double wall between them?

If you want so many gadgets, eliminate trying to eat in the kitchen. Open up the wall between the DR and kitchen in order to use it for everyday meals. Then expand the kitchen into the breakfast area, maybe having that end being focused to your hobbies.

We do not have a door from the kitchen to the dining room.

[Edit] I messed up trying to do the plans from memory. Fixing them now.

This post was edited by Timobkg on Sat, Nov 8, 14 at 14:47

Ok, I fixed the layouts above. Sorry about that.

We did a mock-up of the triangular table, to see how it could fit. We also found it's available in counter height as well as bar height.

The blue line marks the countertop overhang on the peninsula, and each tile is 1 foot. So placing the table there gives us about 3' 8" between the tip of the table and the edge of the countertop, and 2' between the table and the half wall where the bench would go (and removing the wall would give us another 9").

If you take down the half wall between your sunken family room and the kitchen eating area and follow through with the placement you are proposing for the table, your bench (or stools) will be literally teetering on the top of a step! I really think you need to reasses this whole layout. Consider the earlier suggestion of placing a door from the kitchen into the dining room and use it for your daily meals. A dining room without direct access to the kitchen is rediculous.

I know your mock-up of the triangle table easily fits the space, but I think if you add in the seating and plates on the table you might find it will only work for liquid diets (i.e., wine glasses/beer mugs in lieu of plates). Can you fit 5 plates on that table?

Yeah, we realize the teetering part. We're thinking of replacing the half wall with a railing. That would leave about 30" between that side of the table and the railing for the bench.

Kiko, that's a good idea. We'll bring some plates to the store to try it out.

We're not married to the triangle table, it's just that it avoids the problem of having back to back seating with the peninsula. A round or rectangle is going to have the same issues of back to back seating with the peninsula and seating next to the step.

We've thought about putting an entrance into the dining room from the kitchen, but it would have to come at the loss of cabinet storage space. We would eat 95% of our meals in the kitchen. In our current home we only eat at the dining room table when entertaining guests a few times a year, so we didn't feel the walk down the hall on those occasions in the new house would be too onerous. But maybe putting in that entrance and moving the cabinets from that space into the dining room would be an option.

I really like the idea that Hollysprings had - open up a space between the dining and kitchen and use the dining room part for eating. Any loss of cabinet space would then be made up for by getting to use the entire kitchen space instead of having a table in there too.

Do you think that would work for your family? Consider if you feel it's worth it to have a room sit empty except for a few times a year rather than actually incorporating into your daily lives, giving yourself more space in the process.
imo, the demarcation between "formal" spaces and "casual" spaces isn't being done as much anymore.

Ok, I'm going to try to put together a new layout plan, incorporating a larger window over the sink and a doorway to the dining room.

I measured today and we would have 116" from the edge of the 15" peninsula overhang to the half wall. We do want a table in the kitchen, but think that we could drop down to a smaller table to seat 4 in the kitchen, using the dining room for times that we would all eat together. I'm not sure what table shape would be the best there. 40" round with seating at the diagonal? 36x60 rectangle, accepting that we couldn't sit at the table and peninsula at the same time?

I'm not fond of peninsula seating in your kitchen. It seems too tight.
Get a rectangle kitchen table big enough to sit 2 people on the side facing the family room and one person on either end. Maybe a bench against the railing or half wall for 2 more people. A table will get used a lot more than barstools.

marcolo, have you been waiting to use that one? lol Very good point, though.

In addition to paring down wishes, I really think that table needs to go. Yes, it's interesting, but it's going to be utterly useless and probably frustrating. A table that seats 3 for a family of 4 hoping to be 5? That's a table for a single person's first apartment. You won't really end up eating there. You'll drop your keys and bills and it will just be a mess. hollysprings may be right. Perhaps you should forget the eat-in and just have a huge kitchen to get your wish list of stuff. That table makes me think you were never really going to eat in there anyway.

If you hop over to the decorating section the header quote is "Decorate for the life you have..." I think that goes double when planning your kitchen. You've given a lot of thought to appliances. Maybe think about which ones you want to use in tandem and try to group them together? Can any of them be moved out of the kitchen?

It's so complicated, isn't it? Good luck!!!

You really should have a door to the DR from the Kitchen. The layout that I see right now would drive me nuts if I ever tried to use the DR - so it would just sit there gathering dust and junk. Having to traipse through the Mudroom or down a long hall just to get the DR is, IMHO, poor design.

We used to have a barely eat-in kitchen with narrow aisles behind the seats. Not only did we have jockey around to get to seats at the table b/c of the too-narrow space, but it was not fun having to maneuver around the table and chairs just to move around the kitchen or to go from the DR through the kitchen to the FR. It also cut down on counterspace and cabinet space. Our DR was rarely used as a DR - it ended up more as a junk mail collector and drop zone when someone didn't want to put something way. When we remodeled, we took down most of the wall b/w the DR and Kitchen, added a short peninsula (for separation) and now use the DR for all meals. We now have a very functional kitchen with a nice place to eat and we no longer have a wasted room in our home.

Something else to consider - once our two children hit the preteens, we grew out of the kitchen table b/c there was so little space around it and b/c we couldn't make it any bigger b/c of the limited space overall.

Aisles, etc. - what you are proposing will be an issue. Please read the following Kitchens FAQ:

FAQ: Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

(I've also linked to the Kitchens FAQ below.)

Lastly, triangular tables, unless they are very large, really only allow for 3 people. Trying to cram others in will not work b/c you can't share leg space with two or more people - each person needs approx 18"deep x 24" long of space. That table is really only good for "interesting to look at but not very functional" if you have more than three people in your family. If you look at your picture, you will see the table only has room for 1 person per side. In fact, I've drawn it up here with 54" sides and you can see that even three people will be tight if anyone has legs much longer than a toddler's. Adding a slight curve will NOT provide that much more space - no matter how you look at it, that table will only fit 3 people!

(And you're right, bar-height is difficult for young children to use - and can be dangerous.)

I strongly urge to consider the suggestion others have made regarding:

(1) Adding a railing if you take the wall down (I'm not sure you really need to, though)
(2) Either add a door to the DR -or- take down the wall
(3) Eliminate eating in the kitchen (at least as planned) and start using your DR for meals. It will be far more comfortable for everyone and will allow your kids to have friends over for dinner w/o causing problems or forcing some to eat at the peninsula and others at the table (so not family-friendly!)

May I ask - why must you have an eat-in kitchen with the DR so close and seats at the peninsula - 3 types of seating close together? If you want it open, then take down the wall b/w the DR and the Kitchen. Make the DR a "less formal DR/more formal Breakfast Nook".

[OT, but I thought I'd mention - study after study has shown that when families eat together (i.e., parents + children - at the same time), the children are far less likely to get involved with less-than-desirable behavior - e.g., drugs, alcohol, etc. - and are much more likely to be well-adjusted (emotionally, etc.) as they grow to adulthood. It's up to you, of course, since it's your family, but I thought I'd mention it (and I recommend you plan for the entire family eating together).]

Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchens FAQ Page

"a 36x60 rectangle, accepting that we couldn't sit at the table and peninsula at the same time?

Why would you want to sit at the table and the peninsula at the same time? Is people eating with their backs to each other a new thing?

Another option for seating is to have a table in the family room underneath the half wall. The room looks long enough to allow for that, and that table could be used for games and homework and coloring just as much as for food.

Similar to what everyone else ia starting to suggest, when I first asked about the door to the dining room, I was envisioning a couple seats at a kitchen counter somewhere in the kitchen (rather than squeezing in a kitchen table) and then having a table with room for the whole family in an adjacent room - either in the family room or in the dining.

Another suggestion woukd be to make the half wall railing out of glass so all the sightlines you want are still there while maintaining the function of the half wall (preventing people from falling down into the family room).

Two questions:

1) Is the wall between the kitchen and dining load-bearing? And if so, what part of it is load-bearing? Could it be reduced to just a section or columns or something? Assuming the dining room also has windows, opening up that wall would bring more light into the kitchen in addition to the functionality of having a doorway there.

2) Where does the deck end? If the small kitchen window were actually a door, would it open onto the deck, or does the deck not extend that far?

I'm asking because I see potential for running cabs/counters along the half wall and in front of the sliders (which would be a large window in this scenario). Not only would you get a big window above your work space, but because you are right next to the half wall while working in the kitchen, you would be able to see down into the family room even though the half wall is still there.

Another vote for consolidating dining to the dining room. Indeed I'd remove the entire wall and put a peninsula between the rooms. That's what we did and it's fantastic. The fact that the dining room is used so rarely in the current config is a primary argument for consolidation, not vice versa. But then I've never understood the desire to have large unused formal public spaces in like this.

Our idea for seating at the peninsula (or island) was as a casual thing - a spot for someone to hang out while we're doing prep, or for our kids to sit at when helping us cook. I don't think anyone would ever eat there outside of a snack.

I don't know if the wall between the kitchen and dining room is load bearing, but my guess is that it probably is given it's location in the middle of the house. We'll ask our contractor.

The deck ends soon after the sliding door in the kitchen. The steps down from the deck run between the sliding door and the window, such that you're on the ground directly below the window.

I think we would prefer to keep the sliding window in the kitchen, for convenient access to the grill out on the deck.

We don't have to have an eat-in kitchen. I don't think we can take the wall down, but I think we could make a doorway into the dining room from the kitchen. Is there a recommended width for the doorway between the kitchen and dining room? Would a 36" doorway work?

So assuming that we make a doorway into the dining room, and eat our meals there, what do we do in the kitchen? Put a small table there for kids to hang out at and do homework? Leave that space open? Do something else?

The idea to remove the half wall was to make the family room feel more open, to make walking in and out of it easier, and to give us sight lines from the kitchen into the family room and visa versa. We can put a railing or glass wall there instead to prevent people falling in, though if we scrap eating in the kitchen perhaps we can just leave it open.

Buehl, our eating separately is mostly due to timing. My wife doesn't get home until 6:30 or later, while our daughter is usually starving by 5:30. So our daughter and toddler eat dinner first at 5:30, and we eat dinner later. We can see about pushing back the kids' dinner time so that we can all eat together.

Also, what program would you recommend for doing these floorplan / room / kitchen layouts? I have yet to find something I'm entirely happy with.

FWIW, the wall that we removed between our kitchen and dining room was load bearing. As I'm sure you know, load bearing walls can almost always be replaced by a beam with supports at the ends.

"So assuming (consolidate dining to the dining room) what do we do in the kitchen?"

You completely reconsider the layout, draw every combination of placements you can think of, and choose your favorite. FWIW, in our case we replaced the nook with island seating and a walk-in pantry.

Since you mentioned this is your forever home, it's really worth taking the time to think this through and come up with the best possible plan. There are some real shortcomings right now.

On that note - I think if you're going to have the current dining room become the everyday eating area, a doorway from the kitchen isn't enough. I think you need to open that space up so that it's all one room. That way, you are still getting an eat-in kitchen, but it will be an L shape, larger space. Kids can be doing homework at the table and still be in the same space.

I am really having a hard time imagining any scenario where it would be okay to have the step down to the family room totally open without a railing. It certainly doesn't work with a table anywhere near by.
I think you could instead use this space for a kitchen island/peninsula which would straddle the drop down.
Picture having maybe a sink or cooktop on this space - it would be facing into the open family room. There could be stools on the family room side facing into the kitchen.

This would leave a much shorter step down area, basically like what you have now. Which looks natural and not weird.

How high is the ceiling in the family room? Wondering if you could raise the floor there to match the kitchen. Continuous floors are nice.

If you can move the Mudroom entry to the corner, you can have something like this.

I think MW drawers can be in the cab across the sink and warming drawer can go next to cooktop and UTC fridge in the island. Aisles on the long side of the island would be abt. 41. Opening the DR wall may help.

Heh, I was just wondering last night if we could raise the sunken family room. We hate that step and the way it divides the rooms. The ceiling is the same height as the kitchen, so that's fine, but we do have the sliding door and a fireplace on the outside wall to contend with. Going to meet with our GC today to see if it's possible.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far, it's given us a lot to think about. Unfortunately, this means that we're seemingly farther from being able to order cabinets and proceed with this kitchen reno than we were four weeks ago.

I think the slider would be no issue to raise. For the fireplace, maybe you could limit the sunken area to being just in front of the fireplace and have everything else level with the kitchen.

Our GC said that while raising the sunken family room is possible, it may be prohibitively expensive, since ducts would need to be extended, outlets raised, sliding door raised, and the fireplace would need to be completely redone. He suggested that we could extend the kitchen into the family room, moving the step over 4' or so.

We looked at removing part / all of the dining room wall. Possible options are making a 36-46" doorway next to the beer fridge, making a 9' opening next to the oven stack, or removing the whole wall which would require repositioning the wall ovens or fridge.

Maybe something like this: The beer center forms a natural separation between the two rooms, making keeping the wall logical.

I like green's layout, but I'd go single height peninsula between kitchen and dining, no prep sink on island, and I'd still remove the wall between kitchen and family room. How about the wall between family and living - might you prefer that opened up too?

Prep sink is needed there because of the fridge location. I think I'd keep the beer station against the FR wall, so the large slider can stay. The light is nice both for the dining room and the hallway.

I would say that uninterrupted counter is needed there for fridge landing and main sink is very close. But these are things on which reasonable people can disagree...