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ecarson_gw

Need kitchen layout help ASAP

ecarson
10 years ago

We've in the midst of a kitchen remodel, and need to make some quick decisions re: layout so we can finalize cabinetry and appliances. (This started as a small project that was going to be limited to one corner of the room, but somehow turned into a complete redo--hence the need for quicker than ideal decisionmaking!)

I've attached a copy of the current proposed layout. As you can see, the kitchen has a lot of doorways (to finished basement, to pantry, to dining room, and to outside), which have really limited our layout options. We also really need to keep some sense of "eat-in" kitchen element, hence the proposed breakfast bar. Given the narrow entrance to the pantry, there also doesn't seem to be a good option to steal some of that space. Also, the small wall that the breakfast bar will wrap around can't be moved--has our main plumbing stack. The basement is finished, but we're replacing the flooring in the kitchen so have some access for moving wiring, plumbing, etc. We thought about an island, but couldn't come up with a way to get one big enough for eat-in.

Here are my biggest questions/concerns at this point:

1. The current proposed layout from my cabinet guy has the double wall ovens pushed as far to the left as possible (just short of the angled wall), but this puts them in an area that would be partially behind the exterior door when it's open. We don't open it a lot, but do sometimes keep it open on hot days in the summer. I'm sure we could put a doorstop on the floor so we don't have to worry about the door handle colliding with an oven front, but it still seems a bit odd to me to have a major appliance in a doorswing area. My initial thought had been to shift it a foot to the right so it clears the door, but that really shortens the space left on the right side. Which brings me to #2...

2. On the wall between the kitchen and dining room, we want to keep the area near the opening as "open" as possible. There's a line of sight from the foyer, through the dining room, and into the kitchen, looking toward the window. We want to avoid putting deep cabinets right inside that doorway, so I was initially thinking we'd go with 18" lowers and 12" uppers, with open counter space to help with visibility. I'd like that run to be as long as possible, but at least 3 feet. Our cabinet guy, however, has proposed 21" deep on the first section, probably for a better transition to the oven cabinet. That probably makes sense, and if we allow 6" clearance between the end of the cabinet and the trim around the DR doorway, I think it will help it feel less bulky and be less in the way of traffic. Does this seem ok?

The 21" cabinet depth here may also be related to microwave needs, as we were thinking of putting the microwave below the counter just to the right of the ovens. If we were to shift the ovens over a foot to clear the door however, by the time we also squeeze a microwave in there, there's not really room for drawers to the right of the microwave (which is where we'd put silverware, etc.) I can't find a better spot for the microwave, though, as that space near the pantry already feels so tight. Thoughts?

3. The range top location is currently centered on the existing can lights above. Using this as the center line results in about 80" to the left and 70" to the right. Given the peninsula and sink are on the right, it seems like it might be a good idea to try to shift the range top and hood a bit to the left, but then again, that narrower section to the left of the range might make it feel crowded if we shift left. I'm inclined to just center it on the existing can unless there's a strong case for shifting. We thought about possibly putting the microwave on the far left side of the stove (above a possible appliance garage?), but the deeper cabinet there was going to feel a bit tight. It might also create challenges with the upper cabinets, as they are going all the way to ceiling (104"), with a row of smaller cabinets on top of the primary uppers.

For a "reasonably" sized kitchen, it sure doesn't feel like we have enough space. Any suggestions on the current plan or alternatives--including possible appliance-related solutions--are much appreciated!

Comments (8)

  • Cindy103d
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not an expert, but here are my thoughts.

    You have very little space between the cooktop and the stove for prep work. Suggest moving the cooktop down to the left to add more prep space.

    The fridge and pantry cabinet have no "landing space". Where will you put things that need to go in or out of them? Suggest you eliminate the pantry cabinet in favor of something that provides counter space.

    Can you move the DR door to either end of that wall instead of being in the middle? Moving it to the end would give you much better contiguous space to utilize. Then you could turn the fridge so it faces the cooktop and run cabinets all along that wall.

    Or - another option - eliminate the wall between kitchen and DR. Use the DR for seating instead of the raised breakfast bar. Then you could run your cabinets all down that wall.

  • dilly_ny
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Slow down and take the weekend to think about this. Hopefully some layout experts will chime in. I'm not a design person, but it seems to me that if you didn't place ovens/ microwave / cabinetry on DR wall, you could have an L shaped kitchen with an island. Think about starting the shorter end of L with cabinetry to the left of your back yard exit. Then, put your sink under the window. Put the double ovens down on the other side of the cooktop, in the corner, abutting the pantry.

    You might want to enlarge the pantry so that the door into pantry is right next to your basement door (as opposed to the inset way it's now shown).

    Good luck. You have a nice space. Getting the layout right is so important.

  • ecarson
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the comments so far. Keep them coming!

    Cindy, yes, I was similarly concerned about the limited space between the sink and rangetop, as well as the lack of landing space near fridge. We originally thought the counter near the dining room would be close enough (within 48" across from french door style fridge), but that doesn't seem to be the case. We might be able to go with a 33" fridge instead (maybe standard depth?), then have enough room to the left of it to put the microwave over there... Something to think about. Moving the door or wall between the dining room and kitchen, however, aren't appealing options. This particular house really calls for a more formal dining space, and the traffic pattern would be too awkward if the doorway were to be significantly relocated. I believe it's also load-bearing, so probably not feasible at this time anyway.

    Dilly, thanks for the reminder to not rush into anything. Good advice, as we're definitely feeling the urgency. I LOVE the idea of and L shape and an island, but wasn't seeing how that setup would be very functional. I think my initial idea was similar to yours--put the sink under the back window (although it wouldn't be aligned very well), the DW to the right of the sink, then have cabinets/counters all along that long wall. It would be a bit awkward dealing with the unmoveable wall in the middle of that run, but I guess we could have a break in the countertop there and disguise the wall with some sort of built-in hutch or something. The range could then be shifted to the right a bit, with the ovens at the far left (or even a not quite so far left end to the kitchen if we bump the pantry out as you suggest). My concern was that the space really doesn't seem large enough for an island, does it? If we allow 36" space between counters and island (which seems pretty minimal, really), and another 36" on the other side, plus another 12' or so for some open shelving on the wall between the DR, can really only fit an island that's about 3 or 3-1/2' wide. That doesn't seem like much, since we'd also want it to provide counter seating (and in which case we'd need to make that "walk-thru" lane to the backyard wider, too. It also doesn't seem like the island could be very long, since we'd need to allow for both counter depth and walkway at the short L end, and we don't also need to keep the traffic lane open for folks heading to the pantry or basement (guest quarters). Oh, and I was also worried that it would seem impossibly far from the fridge to the sink, even without an island to navigate around. Probably about 15', with a turn. I don't see anyplace else to put the fridge though, or any better use for that little corner between DR and basement stairs. Ugh.

    I'll think some more about these ideas. Looking forward to hear any other suggestions for this challenging space!

    PS - We like to use the DR for family dinners, as well as the "adult" dining when we have guests. Not enough room in there for all the kids, so really do want some eat-in space in kitchen, even if only for 3 or 4 people.

  • lavender_lass
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just an idea...hope ovens aren't making access to pantry too narrow.

    This way you'd have more prep space with a smaller prep sink...and clean up area off to side. Have a nice Thanksgiving :) {{gwi:1978482}}From Kitchen plans

  • bpath
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It seems like such a good idea to put the oven down there, but with the oven door open you wouldn't be able to stand in front of it to slide things in and. Almost impossible with a 20-lb turkey!

    But, the refrigerator could go there, and the oven where the refrigerator is now, with base and upper cabinet beside it instead of pantry.

    Or, regarding the back door, can you reverse the swing so it doesn't hit whatever's there?

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your current plan would require lots of walking around the kitchen to prep a meal. Here's an idea that tightens up your work triangle and alleviates some of your traffic pattern concerns, especially by the back door. With this lay-out, the back door can swing wide open against the adjacent wall.

    {{gwi:1978483}}

    This is a galley set-up, one of the most efficient lay-outs, but with an island instead of a wall.

    Oops, forgot to note a few measurements. The island is 108" long, counter edge to counter edge. Aisle measurements are counter to counter, counter to wall, or counter to fridge door (basing it on my CD fridge dimensions).

    I moved the pantry wall forward, opting to use that space (a 30" aisle is really tight) for more hidden storage. The wall ovens are next to it. When the oven doors are open, passage to the pantry will be blocked but at least you have the option of standing in front of the oven to pull items out.

    I shifted the cook top down. I don't think it's critical to center it on the can light. In fact, you may end up with more glare coming off the hood with the cook top centered on the light. You have 30" of counter and cab storage on either side of the cook top.

    The fridge abuts the must-stay wall with an 18" deep floor to ceiling cabinet to its right, something like this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/victorian-resurrection-victorian-dining-room-portland-phvw-vp~3003779)

    [Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Portland Interior Designers & Decorators Vicki Simon Interior Design

    You could also opt to have closed storage below and open above. But this piece would make good use of that narrow space without blocking the window.

    Sink, DW and MW are in the island with seating for 4 facing the cook top wall.

    The swing door to the basement has been replaced with a sliding barn door like this:

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/persimmon-rustic-home-office-boston-phvw-vp~446538)

    [Rustic Home Office[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/rustic-home-office-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_732~s_2111) by Beverly Architects & Designers Siemasko + Verbridge

    mamadadapaige did this swap in her kitchen and it worked out perfectly. Wish I could find the link to her finished kitchen for you. Maybe someone else can help with that.

    Couple questions for you.

    Is the window on the back wall counter height? If not, can you replace it with a counter height window? I have an idea to give you an L-shaped kitchen with an island but it hinges on that window's height.

    Are you dead-set on a cook top/wall oven set-up? Or would you be willing to do a range with a second oven below the counter? Or maybe a cook top with both ovens installed below the counter? That would allow for more counter space in your kitchen. NKBA recommends a minimum of 155" of counter space for cook top/wall oven set-up but obviously, not everyone can do that. This lay-out comes close at 132" however, you could increase your counter space if you were willing to put the ovens below the counter. Just a thought.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Another option with the above plan is to move the sink and DW to the long wall (DW next to must-stay wall with sink to its left) and move the cook top to the island. The island is large enough to make that work well - center it and you would have 36" of counter on each side of the cook top. The raised bar edge would provide diners shielding from grease spatter.

    It's more costly to vent an island cook top (I'd strongly recommend a hood over a downdraft) but it's an option to consider.

  • lisa_a
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    While checking out houzz for inspiration for my kitchen remodel, I came across this kitchen with a lay-out very similar to what I've proposed above. Thought it might help you visualize it.

    [

    [(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-craftsman-kitchen-traditional-kitchen-portland-phvw-vp~131722)

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Portland Kitchen & Bath Designers Robin Rigby Fisher CMKBD/CAPS