Annette Holbrook - no, it does not assume a new build. It does, however, assume that you are willing to move plumbing, electrical, and venting to come up with a functional design. It's when people refuse to change the location of anything (or add something like a prep sink in many cases) that makes it difficult. There may be reasons, but then why ask for help when you're not willing to take the advice?

DW and dish unloading are part of the workflow and zone design. If you haven't already, read the Kitchen Design FAQs to find out what to consider, etc.

Also, be aware that cleaning up - clearing the table, loading the DW, wiping down the table & counters, unloading the DW - is only 20% of the time spent/work performed in the Kitchen. The majority of the time is spent prepping. The stats based on Kitchen work studies:

• 70% or more time is spent prepping [Prep Zone]
• 20% or less is spent cleaning up [Cleanup Zone along with dish storage]
• 10% is spent cooking (actually watching food cook and/or stirring/adding ingredients) [Cooking Zone]

Seriously, read the Kitchen Design FAQs. This thread is in addition to the FAQs; it does not replace them and it does not attempt to!

Kitchen Design FAQs:

Kitchen work zones, what are they?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767031/kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767035/aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-and-landing-space-an

How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

• http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2767036/how-do-i-plan-for-storage-types-of-storage-what-to-store-where

.

In the 1.5 years or so I've been hanging out here at GW Kitchens, I've never seen a kitchen that couldn't be improved by using ice-water-stone-fire. Annette, your DW placement is one of my biggest pet peeves as it's right in your prep zone between sink and range. It would drive me batty. I suspect your prep sink might not get as much use as it could because it's too close to the end of the counter and it looks pretty small, more like a beverage sink. How does your DH do whatever work he is doing in the kitchen without using a sink? For most people, two preppers requires two sinks for maximum efficiency, and the DW should not be in the prep zone of either prep area so someone else can clean-up while the others are prepping. Just a few random thoughts about your kitchen. Of course, if you are used to it and you like it, that's great. I wouldn't because I know there are more efficient options.

buehl, assuming one would be willing to move plumbing, venting and electrical is like assuming one would be willing to have a chauffeur driven limousine for the rest of my life. I'm totally willing but I'm not able to afford that. Being willing and being able are not the same. For my kitchen above, even though we built the house and I could have moved services, there really wasn't much option. We bought land we could afford in a school district that we needed to be in (due to work, which pays the bills). The lot dictated many things. The builder told us what was doable and we started searching plans. We looked at hundreds, narrowed it down to 3 and asked the builder which would be the most logical for our site. This dictated the placement of the kitchen, and where any outside or inside walls would fall within the plan. The only window is where it could be. Now maybe I could have put the sink elsewhere but in the world of re-sale down the road, I'm betting buyers would have a fit if I'd put the range there,or worse had no window. Maybe it seems like I'm not willing to take advice but as I've found on these boards (after over 10 years on here and now 4 kitchens) sometimes people don't read all of the posts, No prob, I get that, people are busy. People asked dimensions of kitchen even though it is stated clearly in the first post. I just repeated in another post, no biggie. My current plan in the other thread is limited by what I can move as I stated. I can't move the window or door because it is a log cabin I would never be able to fill in the hole with anything that didn't look like a horrible patch. Maybe if I could afford the country's foremost expert on log cabin restoration, but not likely. I can't add a sink in the island I hope to build because the trusses below are restricted to being compromised(no drilling through allowed) so I would have exposed pipes hanging below the ceiling in the bedroom beneath.

Everyone's level of "willing" is dictated by different things, budget probably being the first. Having other people in the equation being second. Since my husband was equal partner it the house we had to compromise. This new venture is a log cabin, probably close to the bottom of house styles I'd go with but all other things considered I'm willing to go there, after all that doesn't really cost me anything :D.

funkycamper,

DH stands at the center of the island with fridge and cooktop behind him. I stand at the big sink and do chopping and cleanup. He is mostly doing seasoning and that type of prep. I can easily turn around and put stuff on the island for him. I'm basically a sous chef as I hate to cook and just do what he says. I'm the cleanup crew more than anything, so that is my concern.

I can't imagine where else you could put the dishwasher. The sink had to be there due to the window and since I'm right handed I want the dishwasher where I can rinse and then load with my right hand. When I'm prepping stuff the dishwasher isn't in the equation, it's closed and not an issue. It gets opened after dinner when I load it. When I unload I stand on the other side in the corner (there is room) and unload straight up into the cabinet above and the silverware drawer is right at my waist. I never take a single step when unloading the dishwasher. I've been in kitchens where people have to take 4-5 steps to a cabinet on another wall with 2 plates or glasses at a time and I wonder how they don't just switch to paper :D!

If I put the dishwasher on the opposite side of the sink it may work, but then I would have spent the last 20 years doing everything left handed and that would be very inefficient. Plus then the glasses would be further from the fridge which is a big part of the day, get a glass, go to the fridge, straight shot, over and over and over. The new house that won't be as big a deal.

I get what you're saying about 2 preppers needing 2 sinks but I guess the way we cook there is only one prepper (me) and one chef!

Love this post and I just wanted through a "meal" from ice, water, stone, fire and it all made sense without any doubling back or zig zagging! WHOO HOO!

I came across this as I was reading through the sticky Kitchen FAQs. Such great advice delivered with an awesome sense of humour! I learned a lot and giggled a lot all at the same time! Thanks marcolo!

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I just want to say that this thread provided the most entertaining and useful advice I've ever gotten on kitchen design. It's so simple, but so easy for kitchen designers to ignore...

I wonder whatever happened to marcolo and if he ever finished his kitchen . . . he always had good albeit (sometimes) acerbic advice.

He dumped us. We never even knew if it was him or if it was us.

And now we'll never get to see the parrot in the finished kitchen.

I like to say that I've thrown him over for another, but it's just not true. Sniff :-(

I’d love a thread about Marcolo and your favorite one liners!

Wow, my kitchen follows that formula pretty much to a tee. It wasn't originally set up like that, but we knew we were going to have to gut the kitchen when we bought the house. I didn't know about that formula, but I had about 5 years of working in the original and VERY inefficient kitchen and I thought long and hard about what worked in other kitchens I'd had, and how to improve this one with the way I cook and clean. When it came time to actually start ripping everything out, we knew which appliances had to be moved to where, and it included moving a gas line, and some plumbing.
I have to say, it works SO WELL! Even my teenaged kids have made comments like "wow, it's just easier to do things in here now." Or "wow, the trash can (well, ours is a compactor) just works better here doesn't it!?" We just aren't bumping into each other anymore. Things make sense and flow well. I know it's not just because of how I like to do things... it makes sense to my kids who would never think about stuff like that otherwise except they knew the difference between the original kitchen and our remodeled one and they can appreciate the logistics of it.

Hi everyone, the advice on here is so helpful! I am embarking on a kitchen remodel and would love your input on my layout. Specifically, I am on the fence about adding a prep sink to my peninsula but it sounds like I may need it in order to adhere to the ice, water stone fire guidelines. I’ve attached a diagram. Please share your thoughts and recommendations! Thank you!!!

Sharon, start a new thread showing your layout. Make sure to include measurements. Right off the bat, i can tell you you don't have enough room between the island and your fridge.

Cpartist, thank you I will start a new thread with dimensions! Uh oh not enough room??

Ideal minimum should be 42" and that's from counter to whatever is sticking out the furthest, so counter to fridge door handle. What you have will be a lot less than 36" when you add in the counters and the fridge handle.

I just read this whole thread and picked up valuable information. I have a new build in the beginning stage now and will soon vet my space through the kitchen forum before we even go into the planning/purchasing stage. Beware! I have a challenging space to work with. I feel no worries that I can't have the kitchen of my dreams with the forums help. Thank you to all that take the time to help us that don't have the planning gene! :-)

Someone linked me here from another topic. Wish I'd seen this when it posted several years ago, but it's never too late to learn. Our kitchen goes clockwise with ice at 12 o'clock, ice-stone-fire-stone-water-stone/dishwasher-fire-nuclear reactor. I think this explains a lot about the jam ups my wife and I have trying to get stuff done. Having a cook top opposite from the oven(s) is not my favorite. Our previous kitchen was ice-stone-water-stone-stone(again)-stone(again)-fire-nuclear reactor-stone. In that one with all the stones around, it was much easier to not bump into someone even with 4 people in the kitchen.

And that's why this thread is included in the "[New to Kitchens? Read Me First![(https://www.houzz.com/discussions/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first-dsvw-vd~5500754)" thread! If only people would read that thread -- it would be incredibly helpful when asking for help!

Bumping so new people will realize WHY they should read "New to Kitchens? Read Me First!"

Not sure how I missed this gem when it first posted! Love it!

Tiny kitchen here and considering a five-foot workstation sink which will be a mere foot away from my stove since with a post-tensioned slab, there is no affordable way for me to move plumbing to achieve a traditional ice, water, stone, fire sequence. Thanks Buehl for the links to the overview articles. I wish Houzz had a better way of categorizing the base tutorials.

Please tell me what bump means!

Terry - Any time someone comments on a thread, it "bumps" that thread to the top of the forum list. Old threads without any new comments tend to fall onto page 2, 3, or 50. So simply typing "BUMP" (or anything else) bumps the thread back up to the top, where people are more likely to see it.

This thread is always worth bumping, IMO! It's a good one.

This thread is part of the FAQ links in the Read Me thread.

Classic! I wish Marcolo would return, that would cheer me up so much.

My favorite post of all time, and the mantra for renovating my kitchen, now almost 5 years old. Without this, I probably wouldn’t have the perfect cooking space I have now.

Thank you, marcolo!

Yeah, I wish marcolo were still around too. This is another of marcolo's epic posts. It's nice to enjoy some harmless humor about now.

Thank you salex!

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I haven't been back much at all in the seven or so years since Houzz bought GardenWeb -- returned because I'm now planning a bathroom remodel in new old house -- but really do miss Marcolo and all the others' collected humor and wisdom on kitchen design. Would kill to hear how his 20's parrot-themed kitchen finally turned out, breakfast nook and all.

Houze killed Gardenweb. They’ve run off most of the knowledgeable people by very heavy handed and arbitrarily poofing accounts left and right. Including Sophie. I’ve been here since 1998, with Spike as king. Spike was a mild mannered and benevolent milquetoast compared to house. I keep trying, and they keep poofing.

With FB groups taking over, leaving seems to be the right thing to do. It still gets go me that they bought GW just to ruin it.

But, posters have changed too. They are so entitled to the Easy button that they don’t even ask good questions.

I'll always be grateful for everything I learned on Gardenweb. My new kitchen - now my 10-year-old kitchen - would not be the same. Thought about Marcolo the other day when I went to meet a new client for my part-time gardening business, and I didn't go to the front door lol.

lol @ginny20 -- I always think of that layout mockup someone (JohnLiu I think) did for Marcolo with the shielded Roman warrior defending his spot in the kitchen -- I also hate it when people want to talk at me while I'm cooking, and recall with fondness our mutual dread of the "open plan kitchen". Ha.

@GreenDesigns I remember once being sent to the teacups by Spike for saying something snarky. As I recall my issue with Houzz was that they wouldn't/couldn't? link my GW account so I wound up without access to any of my earlier posts. A decade later I hardly care, although I do still see some of my old kitchen photos floating disconcertingly around google image search. I have no real feel for what the community's like now, and every topical discussion search seems to land me in older threads that are helpful as far as that goes but not quite the same.

Circus Peanut, I've waited for years for a reveal of your new kitchen in your old house; did you post it? Good to hear from you, and I have posted many pics of your prep sink with the integrated cutting board.

I was hoping Marc Colo (above) was the irascible marcolo, ready to join us again.

Hi mama goose! I posted a small reveal when we sold the old old house -- here it is:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2688731/copper-countertops-a-resale-success-retroactive-reveal

We put in an impulse bid on our "new" old house across town, and wound up really pushing to make the move in time. Sorry it's not as detailed as I'd like; I know I still have a large folder of closeup photos of that kitchen in progress on my old computer, I must really remember to archive it all. We really just adored that kitchen -- my beloved yellow tile! -- and we solidified some useful DIY skills in creating it. I love that you still remember it and the little round hospital sink I found at Restore with my dad's custom cutting board on it.

I also wish Marcolo were still around -- both of my cats have died in the past year at the ripe old age of 20, so I'd stand a better chance of inviting him up from Boston now, lol. (He hated the "pets in kitchen" photo genre.) That man had such a great eye for vintage design and never lost the focus on REAL COOKING which is the point of all this fuss.

I loved that kitchen--I even ended up with a yellow breadbox after seeing yours. I meant the kitchen in your newer house--did you remodel that one?

Ha, nope, 6 years later we are still using a series of stainless restaurant kitchen counters and trying to figure out what we really want in there -- first we had to focus on the house systems like roof, gutters, windows and heating, and then covid layoffs affected us financially, but we're now re-grouping.

In the meantime the priority has turned into the main bath of the house, since it was a terrible 80's remodel that is almost literally falling apart and will require a down-to-studs redo. This main bathroom is situated directly above the butler's pantry, so we may be forced to open up the ceiling in any case, forcing our hand on the kitchen a bit. With 5 different doors it will be quite the design challenge. Will keep you posted! :)

This post is very helpful for my kitchen remodel planning! I sure wish that the links to the gardenweb articles worked!

@lenorae11 - all the links are within this post: ”New to Kitchens? Read Me First” https://www.houzz.com/discussions/2843508/new-to-kitchens-read-me-first

here are the individual links mentioned in earlier comments above:

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5500787/faq-how-do-i-plan-for-storage

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/3638270/faq-kitchen-work-zones-what-are-they

https://www.houzz.com/discussions/5500771/faq-aisle-widths-walkways-seating-overhangs-work-landing-space-etc

@mmiller Thank you very much for the links!

This post explains beautifully what's wrong with the layout in the kitchen we bought knowing we'd need to remodel! (If you want to go help me figure out how to make best use of the space that post is here https://www.houzz.com/discussions/6178150/kitchen-remodel-what-to-move-where-in-odd-angled-space).

Coming in from the garage where we'd bring in groceries it's Ice (then wood, meaning pantry), tiny bit of Stone, Fire, Stone, Water, Stone. One of my ideas for moving things around would give me the Ice Water Stone Fire sequence and I'm keeping this in mind as I figure out what to move where.

This thread is one of the Kitchens Forum's FAQs and is linked to in the "NEW TO KITCHENS? READ ME FIRST!" thread. Please see that thread for more information.

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