Dave I am not an expert but I like the way you designed your island better. It seems more versatile at least for what my family does. We serve buffets, do art projects, husband and I both spread out the newspaper while having morning coffee etc. We would like the roomy space in your plan. In the KD plan there is extra seating off to the side don't know if you need it, it wasn;t in your plan. Can't tell if you were putting a counter there,cabinets, or perhaps a beverage center. My vote is your plan.

Hey "justmejulie" -

Thanks for the thoughts...

The area on the lower right corner is actually a banquette which we did want (its sort of in the upper right corner of my plan). So, there is extra seating there (the newspaper and coffee for us, kids at the island) on the few lazy weekends we have.

I absolutely agree with you on the large work surface of the island for projects, etc. That is one of the considerations for changing it to more like what I have.

A couple of the things we do like about the KDs design is that its much more conversational for meal times, and more conducive to someone turning a stool to face the person at the lowered prep area for a chat (most likely my mother-in-law, etc).

Keep 'em coming...good stuff!!

I'm not crazy about the KD's island. It seems like it wastes a lot of good counter top space and I'm not really sure what you gain. I would hate to be the one with my back to the prep sink and I also don't think 24" wide is enough counter space for 2 people to sit across from eachother. You seem to have plenty of seating at the banquette, do you really need 5 more seats at the island. One other thing to consider that people have mentioned here before. If you go with an island like in your plan, it looks to be more than 4' wide. It will be difficult to reach across to clean the center.

Other than the island, I like the plan. You have a nice big space to work with.

I really like how the KD fit in the banquette in the bottom corner especially because you've wanted it from the very beginning.

Overall it looks good and it's really coming together! A couple things that I see though....the microwave seems to be out in left field where it's not especially accessible to snackers, not close to the cook and prep zones or the fridge. Also, I'm a little unsure about the unconventional island. I can see its benefits, but I can't help but think that it would be odd to be sitting in the middle there.

How about doing an island that's a hybrid of both plans? You could keep the prep end about the same length but shape the island kinda like in your old plan. However, instead of having storage cabinets all the way down on the sink side, do only one cabinet and use the rest for seating. Do one cabinet on the pantry side too, and use the rest for seating. This should create a seating area that is like half an oval table and should seat 4, possibly 5 depending on the actual dimensions.

Also, placing the microwave in the one cabinet on the pantry side might solve its location problem. There, the microwave can be accessed by snackers without them entering prep, cook or cleanup zones, and it'll be close to the prep sink/area and near the fridge.

PS: Our island is 5' wide and I have NO trouble reaching the middle to clean it. Indeed, we could have gone 6' and I'd still easily be able to reach the middle. After that, I'd have to resort to my tippy-toes or climbing. (I'm 5'4" tall)

Hi, Dave. My vote's definitely for something more along the lines of your island. There's a disconnect between the new island's seating and the cook that I found kneejerk-offputting. If people are going to turn their backs on the cook, why have island seating at all? And even the ones facing are chatting across an empty gap. But really, it just seems like the impetus for this design is that it's attempting to fill up what's a whole LOT of space in a creative way without making a giant island.

The openness and interest of the glass door to the patio from the kitchen do seem very nice, likewise the banquette in the new position. However, regarding your adult-relaxation banquette, it seems like it basically is the same size and same function as the island seating, just farther away. Like most people do one or the other, but with your space you're doing both. How about working out all the seating you might want at one time at the island and then adjusting the banquette slightly to provide a more comfy sitting area, such as with a built-in bench and an upholstered chair or two pulled around the table? You'd like a somewhat different mood and function between the two areas, so maybe just a little more so? I'm now wishing we'd made enough room by our banquette to pull up an upholstered chair and footstool for someone to really relax in while keeping the cook (me) company, so that's where I'm coming from.

I just remembered a kitchen I visited last year. Since you want more seating at the island and are looking outside the box, have you considered making the cook's/stove side the inside of a compact work U, with the seating wrapping around the outside perimeter? I didn't examine your plan to see if this would be awful or even workable, but it would be a way to get the work areas in close and compact for the cook AND in good relation to a large social/dining area. The people with the cook's prep U set into what was really a very large island loved it.

Hey again folks, all good food for thought.

A couple of comments back...

Mahlgold/rosie - yep, one of our first reactions was about folks seated at the island having their backs to the prep area. Which brought about the whole conversation we had about a person turning a stool around to talk to the "prepper" (I'm a prepper, your a prepper, we're all preppers....ok, ok back to business).

We like the additional seating of the banquette (which will be built in, cushioned, etc as rosie suggests) plus the island for a few reasons.
- I work from home full time and use the kitchen as my "office". With this arrangement I can continue working while the kids eat breakfast, do homework, and when they would set the island seating for dinner.
- it allows us to sit in the kitchen when we have guests with kids. Kids at the island, adults at the banquette or vice-versa. While we have a dining room we generally try and use it only for larger gatherings.
- on weekend mornings it give us all a chance to spread out for reading the paper, etc (my older son always steals my sports section.....)

Alku05 - good point about the MW. I'm trying to keep it off the pantry wall since we want to hold the depth there at 12"(the KD wanted us to think about 18" pantries w/out and we thing that is too deep for that area). The door from the mudroom/playroom/bathroom area creates a traffic way in that area of the kitchen for people passing thru to the family room, etc.

Your island idea sort of reflects my design, but interesting point about fewer cabinets and a more oval like end. I'll have to try that and see.

No concerns here either about cleaning the island. My reach is pretty good...

rosie - i think i sort of see what you mean about the cook's U - we're trying to avoid downdraft or over head ventilation from the ceiling. Interesting idea to try and play with....where did i put the graph paper.....

Ok, a lot to sleep on. I'll try to post some revisions tomorrow. They'll have to be pencil/paper since I don't have an electronic way to change what the KD has given us.

Keep 'em coming....and thanks...

Davewg, I wasn't clear: I'd put the MW in the island on the side of it that faces the pantry.

I completely agree with keeping your pantry at 12". That's a great depth to store stuff and you won't need pullouts.

Ok, Alku05, makes sense....

Here is a ham-fisted rendering of what I think you were getting at for the island. Two alternate locations for the MW are shown.

This island means giving up some storage and the beverage fridge, which is probably a negotiable item (i.e. less $$) anyway.

The island has a 36 in base on the "north side" and a 24" and 12" on the "south" side. I would probably flip the MW and 12" cab as this would be the replacement for the lost 15" tray divider cabinet shown in the KD plan.

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Ok, I'll check back in the morning...its been a long day...thanks....

Shamefully bumping myself to see if there are any other island or layout comments.

TIA...

Dave the way I cook I would much prefer the microwave near the stove where I could keep an eye out on the food and stir etc when needed. Others may like a microwave in the island but I wouldnt like stooping to set times. I'm only 5'0 but then I'm not as young as I used to be either LOL And I really like your island plan. I like how everyone can gather spread out and be with the cook.

kitchenchaos (great user name!!)

We're planning for a drawer type with controls on the top (friends have one and love it), so little stooping. We also wanted a low placement so the kids good use it, so undercounter made the most sense to us.

As for placement, we wanted it somewhere near the cook, but also out the the prep area. That way if the kids want to heat up a snack they can do so on their own and also not be in there way. The KDs location was our original thought on placement. After reading the responses I'm rethinking not only the island design, but the MW placement....

I'll try and sketch more over lunch.

Dave,

For myself, I prefer the microwave near the fridge, but with a landing area by it for putting together whatever needs to be zapped.

In your hand drawn, on the wall by the cooktop would work for that, and also for using it for a warming drawer. The island position would be great for the kids, less for the cook, but I think requires moving the prep sink over a little bit for a better landing area from the fridge.

Actually, that's the thing that's been poking me as I've followed your thread, though I just realized it. I'd ask people how they like having the prep sink at the very end like that. I'd rather have 18" on the short side of it. I.e., things to be peeled/scrubbed out of the fridge onto the landing area to the right, worked at the sink, ready to chop on the left, and across into the pan at the stove right behind. Makes for good workflow.

JC

The KD's island intrigues me, but I'd want more out of it, and it might need to be larger. Sounds like you are more comfortable with a more conventional approach anyway. I think the general idea of the island for your micro is good. I like having my micro drawer next to the cooktop on the end near the table. I know a lot of folks want it near the fridge, but I prefer it nearer the spot where the hot food goes -- a cold dish is much easier to carry than a hot one.

The first thing that lept out at me was the ovens. Please consider pulling them out so theyare not in a mini-tunnel. Think about how often you approach an oven from teh side sothat you don't have to reach the full depth of the hot door. That wouldn't be an option as you have it drawn there, and I don't see that you gain anything by setting it back (although the KD sells some quirky cabinets that don't hold a lot or some matching end panels).

Davewg, the island you drew is what I was thinking of, and I must say that I'm impressed with your ability to decode my ramblings. Either microwave location would work well depending on your family's personal preferences.

Give some thought to plllog's suggestion to have your prep sink not on the very end of your island. We have a side facing bookshelf so that we have 12" of counter between the sink and island edge. This is a great landing spot for the fridge, and also to organize tasks around the sink. We planned it this way for looks, but the utility of it makes me grateful everyday for the spark of vanity that inspired it.

Lascatx, I never thought I'd say this to you because we always agree, but I respectfully disagree with your opinion about the oven placement. Our double ovens are placed back in the corner like that and we love them that way. Looking at the top view plan exaggerates the setback; it's less than 12". The setback allows better traffic flow when the oven is open, and creates an unobstructed view through the large windows on the north wall. It also allows better access to the adjacent drawers. When my oven doors are open, my DDs immediately adjacent can still clear the bottom oven door. Very useful when you're doing dishes and suddenly notice you need to rescue the cookies from the oven.

Wheeeeeee, this is fun.

JC/Alku05 - excellent point about the prep sink/landing area. I think we both envisioned the area to the right of the fridge as its likely landing area. We asked for that sink placement thinking about the chop/flick method for discarding of scraps into the disposal. It does look like we have room to add a cabinet to the right of that sink.

lascatx - on the island - well, we're not quite sure what to think which is why I posted it. We like the seating area since its more table like. When you say larger what are you envisioning? I'll have to play with that tonight.

The original placement of the MW in the island was predicated on our typical usage - heating up items at breakfast and dinner where they would be heated and served across the island to the kids.

As for the oven placement, I do have to say that we were influenced by alku05 and like the design - we both always seem to approach the oven from the front and like how the recess gets the open oven doors away from the aisleway.

So
- extra cabinet right of sink
- think about MW placement
- island layout/size

SO, I've had no time to sketch this island out...its been a busy week of activities for our boys.

My wife and I did talk over the island a bit last night, and we agree we're not sure about the design. We don't outright hate it, but we're not sure its the correct answer either.

She could see the point about moving the MW, to maybe, next to the fridge on the cooktop wall.

Alk05, I showed her the island sketch and she reminded me that one of the aspects of seating we wanted was to have everyone facing the windows/doors on the top wall of the kitchen for the view of the lake. While your island thoughts definitely maximize interaction with the prepper/cook it doesn't take advantage of our view.

We think, lascatx, that the seating area is 36" wide which, I agree is probably a bit narrow for two facing seated diners. Our DR table is 40" wide and is ample.

We're meeting with the KD again tomorrow to see door samples (in our stlye/stain choice) and to discuss whether we elimiate several thousands of dollars worth of molding and trim. One option in my mind, might be to add some lenght to the top "arm" of the island allowing us to widen the seating area by those 4 useful inches.

I could also see eliminating the shallow depth cabinets that back to the prep sink to allow for knee space for a couple of people to turn stools around and sit with a drink/snack while chatting with the cook. The additional length of the "arm" would help to open this area too.

Here's the view I keep talking about

Gonna play with this longer "arm" idea...

This isn't to scale or anything, but with a view like that, I'd think that the number one thing would be to make the seating optimal. Now I get why the two seating areas (i.e., lounging as well as view). :)

I know the point of the arm thing was supposed to be facing each other, but since you have the banquette area where you can do that, does the island seating also have to? It's natural to face straight forward while eating, so with the island arm won't you mostly be looking at walls instead of gorgeous view? I'm usually one not to want to sacrifice storage, but this in this case I would, if necessary.

I'd go with something more like this:

plllog - interesting idea...I have something in mind. I'll post this afternoon

pllog - i can decide if you were thinking to rotate the island 180 degrees, but we really didn't want to have the prep and clean-up sinks back-to-back.

I came up with this...I think the left side of the seating curve could turn in a bit more sharply to get the two left-most stools closer to the prep area. That would give seated guests and the prepper/cook a more social arrangement.

Thoughts???

Might be nicer if people sitting at counter don't have to look over their shoulder to talk to those at the banquette?? But if it were my DH choosing he would like this so he could look at the TV in the family room.

Dave,

That's the orientation I meant, but without the notch next to the prep sink. That's what I meant about it being worth losing a little storage to achieve :) I'm not sure of your scale, but it looks like you have more overhang than you need, but yeah.

With a view like that, I'd throw out all other considerations and start with the stools at the best angle for seeing the view and then work the island around that. If that means putting the prep sink at a minorly less convenient place, losing a little storage, or whatever, I'd do it. You might not. But I would.

I take back what I said above. I just noticed your awesome view! Just beautiful! It rememids me of a architect
friend that has a beautiful mountian view. He put his cook top facing out the window because he said he stood there longer than he did dishes.

Hi folks....thanks for the kind thoughts about the view. It is one of the things that ultimately sold us on the house (despite its dated, worn out feeling).

plllog - yeah, my sketching ability is HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE.

So, at any rate we met with the KD again tonight and settled on a door style/stain which is a huge accomplishment, but maybe that's another thread....but the short of it is, the Liberty doorstlye from Ultracraft in a Natural Cherry stain.

We'll save money by dumping the glazing on either a wood door, or a painted white finish we had been planning on. Ultracraft changed how they're doing the glazing and its much heavier than a few years ago. The white doors are a much less "matte" finish and had a sheen that we didn't like.

We also elimiated dentil molding we didn't like and a lot of fluted trims that while they were nice cost $$$$ and are not really our taste.

One of the things the KD immediately pointed out about this is that its big island and cleaning the center would be a chore. He's right, and I joked that I'd have to hang from the ceiling a la Tom Cruise in the first Mission: Impossible move.

So, we discussed some changes and it looks like we're going to wind up with an island that's sort of shaped like a grand piano where the "keys" would be is the prep area and the island is shaped like the body of the piano. We'll still have some shallow depth cabinets underneath for all the occassional use items we have.

We also changed the layout of the "arm of the island. The beverage fridge will now go on the north (top) wall where the 33" base cabinet is (by the door to the yard) with the remaining cabinet a narrow 9" door for bag storage (the reusable grocert type, etc).

The MW drawer will go where the beverage fridge was and we'll replace the MW base and 15" cabinet with a 36" wide drawer base for plates and utensils. The remaining 24" space will be left open as a push in spot for a stool where my wife can sit at meals while the kids and I sit on the curve of the piano. This arrangement also puts a stool nearer the prep area for a helper or guest.

So, it feels good to get something accomplished including starting to determine where everything will have a home in the new space.

I should have the new drawings next week and will post...here is a reminder of the layout (sans changes from today)

and a grand piano from above to imagine the island shape.

Sounds like everything's come together for you! I can't wait to see your new grand island.

Thanks, alku05.

Fingers crossed that we can start in the spring.

Now we wait on the architect and revised estimates from the contractor as we've eliminated/changed some other things to help try and keep the costs down.

I'm sure I'll have more questions down the road.......

Dave, I think I can imagine your piano shape. Great concept! It maximizes view and keeps your long run to the prep sink. Additionally, it's an interesting shape, and one of the things that had been worrying me was the amount of space between the stools and chairs--this should give you a few crucial extra inches! Kudos to the KD!

JC

He really has been great. He's and old, good friend of my in-laws which I'm sure helps. But he has a great reputation in our area and has been around forever doing construction, kitchens, etc for about 35 years.

He listens, adapts and immediately has good ideas and thoughts. He's also let us be a part of the process...not one of those here's the design take it or leave it types.

Looking forward to working with him in the coming months.