Dandan -- We are just finishing up a renovation that included our kitchen and three bathrooms. One of the things I learned (the hard way!) is that how you say things makes all the difference. In the 10 months this job has taken, we have dealt with dozens of craftsmen, laborers, supervisors, etc., etc., and every one of them had their different styles and expectations. To a person, all of these were men, with the exception of the granite fabricator, owned by a woman (or at least she's the one we dealt with). Most of these people are self-taught. Most of them are a little bit sensitive about a woman and an amateur coming in and telling them how to do their job, even though most of us here read obsessively about how to do things. You have to be careful how you say things. While I agonized over everything, cried over some things and lost a lot of sleep during the last few months, for the most part people fixed whatever problem I pointed out to them and I am happy with the outcome. I found that the way you state your complaints and suggestions and requirements makes all the difference.
Dandan, your requirements don't sound unreasonable to me, but I don't know how you would characterize your professional relationship with this fabricator after she did your vanity. If it was already tense, maybe this pushed her over the edge? I found that I always had to work hard at not being confrontational, and to always remember to tell people what I liked about their work and what they had already done for me, before I asked for something else. This has been a real lesson in diplomacy, and believe me this doesn't come easily to me. Good luck with your job. Sounds like you know what you want, which is half the battle.

hmsweethm,
Thank you so much for the comments. I knew exactly what you are talking about. I did learn to step back and let them do their job their way. But sometimes, you know, the installation manual clearly says "don't do this" highlighted in red. They are still making the mistake. I cannot just stay quiet. Ultimately, when they leave, it's us who will suffer the consequences. We are human being who make mistakes. But the attitube of making it right is important to me.
Another important thing I learn, whatever not written in the contract, no matter how they promise you, they are not gonna do it! That's why I am writing a contract right now.

It's been three months my contractor still didn't finish my kitchen and bathrooms. The original estimate is 9 weeks. I am losing patience!

I think from a homeowners perspective your list is great. If I were the fabricator though I'd be a little leary.
I am very picky so I would probably make a similiar list, I just wouldn't spell it out in writing.
Donna

My opinion on the consistent overhang: Isn't this something that they can work with when they make the template? Even if the cabinets are not installed even, when they have the template over it, it shows that it isn't consistent. Whether the cabinets are installed correctly or not, I don't think it is too much to expect to check of the template is consistent and if it is too hard to accommodate the imperfectly installed cabinets, to let the customer know of the options. Either let her know, that this is impossible to accommodate and she should get the cabs fixed or present the difficulty and explain to her the extra cost associated with it.

I am guessing whta probably happened is that, even if the cabinets weren't installed straight, they didn't notice it when they made the template, or didn't make the template properly and since it was too late afterwards, it was the easy way out to blame it on the cabinets. If everything was always perfectly straight, what is the point of making templates?

Pinar

i'm as picky as they come. i just got my tropic brown installed 10 days ago. it had maybe 10-15 small pits i found a few days later. i used a huge company who game right out and filled them all beautifully. i paid $4.50 a linear foot for ogee edge and this company polishes the under side. for 67 square feet i paid $3550 total for everything and that inluded 40 linear feet of ogee edge. this company does all home depots installs in my city and if i went threw hd it would have been over $5 k for it. also the seems are not your choice. i resisted a seam near my sink and they came back and said i must have a seam

I didn't read all the comments, but as a business owner we occasionally get customers who we can tell from the start that they "may" be difficult to please. I am not saying this is the case, but in business - sometimes it is not worth it to deal with certain customers. We do our best for every order we produce, but at times it is impossible to please some people. With that being said... I DO WANT perfection in my granite tops, and I will be picky!! LOL

I think if I were a granite fabricator, I'd turn the job down too. This is just my hip-shot reaction, but some of the items on your list would make me suspect that you are inevitably going to be unhappy with your countertop, and how well the fabricator performs will do nothing to change that.

Aside from whether or not your list is unreasonable...

If you are unhappy with a bathroom vanity, then I would never let them in the kitchen! They couldn't even get the overhang right in a bathroom? The tops of the cabinet doors are showing in places?? That just sounds unacceptable.

Back to the list: as others have said, I think there is room for fine-tuning your wording. In my (limited) experience, a skilled (and confident) contractor will explain to me why, say, a certain expectation just can't reasonably be met. They will promise to do their best, but admit that x, y, or z is unlikely. Then, they will leave the decision to me. The response of your fabricator sounds like it is coming from someone who knows they did a lousy job on your bathroom, predicts they don't have the skill to do a proper job in your kitchen, and they are trying to bow out while maintaining the upper hand (putting the onus on you for loss of the job).

Start fresh! Get someone new!!

Good luck!

:-)

Francy

Hi, Francy,

Thanks for the reply. I told them I am open to discussion and they didn't bother to explain to me. Forget it. I would start over again. It seems that you are from SF bay area. Can you recommend a good fabricator?

Thanks,

My counters (soapstone) are not in yet, so I can't recommend...

But I'm using a company called Creative Stoneworks, in Emeryville. I was limited in my choice of fabricators b/c I'm doing soapstone. I've been very impressed with their "talk." But that's all I can say at this point. I'm hoping to get my counters in by the end of this year, and then I can follow up.

I'm about the pickiest person on the planet, so if they can satisfy *me* I'll be raving about them for sure!

:-)

Francy

I can recommend Lucia at Marblus Granite in San Jose. She did my counter tops in my bathroom and they're perfect. Her phone number is (408) 971-8019.

Your list is almost what I ended up getting although it was not in writing. All I asked the fabricator was that I be allowed to supervise three tasks - templating, fabricating and installation.

We have floor returns which makes the counter very tricky (for a fabricator who has never done this before). The grains had to continue down to the floor.

I spend two hours while they templated.

Then I spent two (half) days while they cut the actual stone . This step is critical if you want the best pieces in the island and have continuous graning and no seams!

Then I spent 6 hours while they installed.

Bottom line - It is more important to be around while things happen than to complain after the fact :)

Hi, Ann,
The fabricator I worked with is in fact Marblus Granite in San Jose. The lady I dealt with is Lucia. I used her based on your referral and the referrals she provided. However, I wouldn't recommendation her. I don't know when you have your job done. But she is not very responsible anymore if she was. Among three appointments I had with her, only one time she is on time. Her guys are always late for at least half an hour. She is holding my sink template right now and promised to return to me. But she never did in the past several days. I don't want to pinpoint anybody, that's why I didn't mention her name. But now I am totally mad. This is not the right way to do business! If she don't want my business, but she cannot hold the templates to prevent me from giving the job to other people.

dandan,
Wow, that's a shocker as Lucia was nothing but professional in my experience. Thanks for letting me know - I'll be a little more circumspect with references in the future.

Ann

Hi, Ann,

I guess she is getting a lot of business these days and does not care about one customer. She called me today and said she had some family emergency and were out of town. If that is true, there are some misunderstanding between us. I would still give her job a 7 out of 10. Not bad but not great. Nowadays, a lot of people hesitate to give references since things like this happens. For that, I still want to thank you for the information.

Okay, for someone that did not pay extra for materials that was used for his vanity top you are being very unfair.

My customers always come first.

I allowed you to view your granite and approve it prior to the fabrication. Pits and other color variations are to be expected with natural stone as I have stated. If you had certain expectations, why did you not send me
"the list" from the beginning. This is the e-mail you sent to me after the installation of your first vanity top.

Hi, Lucia,
The granite looks great. I may choose a different color (something matches the wall tile better) for the next bathroom.
There are some minor things need some touch-up:
1) A lot of fabricator uses clear caulk. The colored caulk your installer used is a lit off and there are some gaps may need to be re-caulked. I would prefer clear caulk. (Why would you want clear caulk? That only makes it much more noticeable when dirt accumulates after time) We try to use a caulk that matches the granite. We went back and
re-caulked)
2) The overhang is a lit small and inconsistant. Some are 1" , some are 1.25". Not a big deal for bathroom but look a bit odd.
3) Some chips and pit on the surface.
Can we schedule sometime to take a look at it? Again, those are minor, not prevent me from giving you the business. But I would appreciate if you can better for the kitchen, which is a big deal.

I would like to sign a contract as well for the kitchen and other bathroom. For the other bathroom, I want just standard edge. Can you give a price break and do it for 400? (Okay so you also wanted me to fabricate, install and supply materials for a second bath and you offered $400.00) We can discuss it as well. Something I would like to include in the contract:
I know you are currently awaiting the template for your sink that was taken when we did the template for you kitchen. I will be able to deliver the template tomorrow as I stated on my voice-mail.

I apologize for any in convince we have caused you. However, I think what you are doing is wrong.

dandan74,
I'm confused. You were so dissatisfied with your bathroom vanity, yet considered the same fabricator for your kitchen counters and 2nd bathroom? Fwiw, I think it's unfair what you've done to Lucia.

After getting informed on what were reasonable expectations from our fabricator, we sat down with them and agreed on some things and disagreed on others. Came to an understanding and they did a n amazing job. She went with us at our request to check out the slabs and from the 6 Hawaiian Green available, she helped us choose the best ones. She REALLY checked them over. We had full trust in them because we knew they were reputable, had been doing it for many years and were willing to work with us on what we wanted. After all, when you spend over $8000 on granite slabs, you expect the best job possible and want to be satisfied with the final result. We wanted 134 inches at the time the job was done because we didn't want seams. Our overhang was approved, some fissures filled, we chose where to place the templates, sink reveal was exactly what I asked for and, when we decided to add an air switch after installation, they came back out and did a great job. I don't believe your list is THAT unreasonable but I do think you should sit with them and come to an agreement and maybe educate yourself more on what is and isn't possible to do. Find yourself the best fabricator possible. It is worth the time and possibly the extra $ to find someone that'll do a job you love. I hear of too many "They did a horrible job with my granite stories"....

Sue - I think what you wrote is eminently fair. I apologize for being the one to bring Lucia's name into this discussion as I had no idea which fabricator the original poster was using.

I stand by my statement that I found her work to be professional (2 vanities in my master bath) and I was very happy with my experience with her. I went to her shop to approve the layout of my templates on the 2 slabs, and got them to agree to cut the backsplash so that the veins in the granite would continue (and be matched) directly from the backsplash to the vanity top. I used Costa Esmeralda which some have noted is a difficult granite to work with.

I think she has a good point, which other posters have raised as well, that granite is an imperfect material. However, I also think that if the original poster can't come to agreement with the fabricator, he should find someone else he can work with.

Ann

Actually those requirements don't make a lot of sense to me, far less do they seem reasonable. On the one hand, "the owner" wants to make decisions about choosing the slab, and the seam placement, but the fabricator is to make sure that the stone has no pits, or fissures, and that movement can be lined up. How can you expect both to work out? I don't wonder that the stone company felt that perhaps "the owner" should best fabricate the counters themselves, too :-)

I picked my stone and, with a rep, picked some slabs. The fabricators had tried hard to talk me out of those slabs because they were short - the raw slabs were less than 8 feet long! and they were concerned that I'd crib and whine about too many seams, continuity etc. Well, i wanted the stone that I wanted so I promised that I wouldn't whine about seams. In turn they said that they'd give me nice tight seams. We worked with the fabricator on the template but not to the extent of deciding where to seam - I trusted that their technical expertise in gauging where the seam should go for best structural purposes. In concert, I got to tell them what "parts" of the stone I absolutely wanted for what prominent area and which parts of the stone I liked the least so that they could either eliminate that area or have it in sink or stove cut-out areas or in some remote spot. As a result, I have one or two filled in areas - but they are way in the back corners of my 30" counters and therefore as little visible as they could manage. The other "fills" in the slab they eliminated.

This is a two way street and I guess you just need to figure out the aesthetic/personal part of the equation from the technical part of the equation, ensure that they KNOW how to handle the technical angle, and then find a way not to confuse the issues and impose too many constraints on the technical aspects of the job. Either that, or use a very uniform natural stone or manmade item that won't have the seaming challenges of the natural stuff. Where's carpentershop when you need him? He'd tell you to walk away from the dark side, anyhow. ;-)

Hi, Sue,
Wonderful comments! You brought up a lot of wonderful points here. In my business world, time is critical and people are not so forgiving on delays. Find a good contractor hasn't been easy. That's why I really want to thinks Ann for her referral even the final job did not turned out to be desired. I have found a fabricator who said he can meet my requirements. Whether he can actually do it, I will see. Hope I can get my template back tomorrow. Let's end the discussion here.

Im very upset that Mr. Tiewen decided to only express the things he thought I did so wrong.

Even when he sent an e-mail stating that the granite looked great.

I agree, everyone should try to be on time and you are correct sometimes we donÂt have control of everyoneÂs schedule and it does make it tough to be on time for every appointment.
I did everything I could to accommodate the homeowner I even offered to meet after hours and on weekends what ever worked for him. I did that for him and I offer that to all my customers.

IÂm more upset at the fact the he is not being honest and making seem like I didnÂt care.

I try to do the best I can and now I understand that IÂm not always going to be able to make everyone happy.

Lucia

I really really want to end it here. BUT, please make a list of the things to prove I am not honest with you!
True, I said to you the granite is great, just make you feel better! That's why I came up a list of requirements for you to review. You can either agree or disagree like other posters. That's it. For the very beginning, you want me word to give you the whole job. I told you that you have my word. That's why I still want you to do the kitchen even if the previous job is not that desired. To be fair with you, it's not a terrible job, just not to my expectation. I saw better jobs. That's why. I am glad you even brought up my name. Great. There is nothing I am ashamed off. Please look at the missed calls in your cell phone, how many times I have tried to reach to discuss those things. MY intention here is to get other people's opinions about my requirements. Not to blame anybody.

I didn't read all the comments, but this is another vote for Creative Stoneworks in Emeryville; they installed my soapstone. They WANTED me to choose my slabs, allowed me to oil it (most don't), and had me lay the template on the slab so they knew how I wanted it. They also wanted to borrow my actual sink for the template since they said the paper template that comes with the sink is never quite accurate. In addition, they wanted me to be around and have the GC be available by phone when they drilled the sink holes and to approve their placement. They take pride in matching the backsplash pattern to the counter, (but I used tile), so of course they are not the cheapest place in town. They have been in business for years and well before granite and soapstone became so popular. They consider themselves *high end* according to they guy who came out; I would say their price is moderate and reasonable. Also, they said they would contact us after three years to check our sink seals, buff out dings, etc. Dunno how much that would cost, tho'.

BTW, Creative Stoneworks is booked months out, and they were the very first ones my GC contacted.

As to pits and fissures: I think that comes with the territory of using stone, and the fabricator can usually fill them to make them smooth. This is where it is good to be able to choose one's slabs and work with the fabricator on layout.

Bayareafrancy, I hope your experience with Creative Stoneworks proves to be as positive as mine. Oh, a soapstone vein you could feel ran into my Instant Hot or soap hole, so my GC made them come back to fill it. They returned soon, no questions asked. They did a nice job on my sink reveal. And you MUST tell then if you don't want your soapstone sealed or enhanced.

I also didn't read all of the comments but wanted to chime in on the issue of pitting.

Indeed, pitting, is a natural part of stone. All granite has some pitting.

However, most of us want minimal pitting in our countertops. So, while I think it is unreasonable to ask for "no pitting," I do think some gauge should be set for acceptable/unacceptable levels of pitting in our granite countertops.

Some of your "demands" (my opinion) are reasonable and some are not. As a fabricator, I would not agree to all of your stipulations. You pick and approve the slabs, you can't complain about pits. They are in all stones. What you really need to be looking for is a solid surface material like Corian or other brands. I do not know this person Lucia or anything about her company. We are on opposite sides of the country. If you do not have a solid background in the stone business you have no right to tell your fabricator how to do their job. I would not accept your terms either.

To all reading this:
Always check references and get referrals from trusted contractors or friends that have the product you are considering.

Ask questions. If your fabricator does not educate you on what you are getting, find someone else.

If there are problems, be reasonable and open to suggestions to find a solution that both of you can agree to.

We haven't done our kitchen yet, so I can't give any advice on that aspect.

But I wanted to comment that I think you are being a little unfair. To me, it does sound like you are a very demanding customer and I can see how the shop would feel that they will not be able to please you. Perhaps if you are looking for an ideal product you should consider a manufactured surface like quartz or corian and you will be more satisfied?

I don't think it's fair for you to complain and share your side of the story and ask them not to respond anymore. Since you have posted their name it's only fair to give them a chance to present the other side of the story (and there always is another side). BTW, it doesn't matter why you told her the granite is great - once you put it in writing they can hold you to it.

dmiller - I do not agree that customers have no right to complain about high levels of pitting in their granite countertops. When I chose and approved my own granite slabs I (and two other people I brought with me) noticed *some* pitting in my granite (normal). What arrived at my house and wound up cemented onto my brand new cabinets was a pitted mess - not one square inch of the granite was free of pits. How could I have missed that when I was viewing the slabs?

I am a novice when it comes to granite. Most customers are. So, whether you believe my slabs got switched or I simply didn't notice the pits in the warehouse lighting - I do believe the high level of pitting should have been mentioned to me by the fabricator. As should any *extreme* level of fissures or flakiness. I should have been informed of how much superglue would be needed to smooth my granite out. Remember, this is going to be used as a food preparation area!

With all due respect, I think it is unfair, confusing and unreasonable for fabricators to shrug off the huge issue of slab quality completly onto their customers. Who, after all, is the expert here?

Wow, everyone wants in on this one. Very interesting! Thanks for your list, as my granite is being done right now, I cant resist adding my two cents worth. I do not think your expectations are too high, however, I dont think that is the issue. You stated your requirements and your fabricator cannot deliver. Move on to someone who can. That being said, I would make a few changes in the way you have written your requests. Hmsweethm, said "how you say things make all the difference" and I truly believe that! I totally sympathize with you as I am really picky also. However, I cannot understand why you would give them a second chance to screw up. You were not happy with the vanity. It was brilliant to test them by having them do the vanity, but they failed. I would make that test mean something and consider yourself lucky you found out before they started working on your expensive kitchen project. I told my fabricator right up front that I am very picky. He told me to examine each slab carefully, visually and tactilely. He assured me he would do the same and notify me immediately if he found anything negative. I choose the three best slabs (IMHO) I could find, and when he went to pick up the slabs, he made the final decision and chose the best two. I told him I wanted to be there when he laid the templates on the slabs and at that time, he showed me various options regarding how the movement, veins, and seams should be. He asked me where I would prefer the seams after showing me the options. He allowed me plenty of input and I was satisfied with his expertise and we came to mutual agreements. Youve got to have confidence in your fabricator and if you dont, do not use him or her. There are lots of them out there, find a good one. Demand perfection, its your money you are spending. Maybe suggestions or requests would get you further rather than demands. Again Dan, thanks for the list and do not feel bad that you are demanding quality work. That is your right!!! Good luck. Keep being picky, its our right!

Oh busymom_2006, I feel bad for you. I think you were rooked and it sounds like your slabs were switched. I took pictures of mine in the slab yard and there was no way mine could have been switched because the movement was unique. You are so right, it is the responibility of the fabricator to bring slab problems to your attention. If they do not, they are worthless. Besides, it protects them. This is a lucrative business and there is lots of crooks out there. I am so sorry for your situation. Have they tried to do anything to remedy the situation?

Granite is a natural surface, and as such, pitting and fissures are part of it's charm. It is NOT standard proceedure to fill all pits and fissures so that you get a glass smooth top. In many varieties of granite, that would be an impossible feat. Some granites can be smooth as glass, but it's the nature of that particular granite itself straight out of the ground and only polished, rather than a fabricator laboriously filling in several thousand pits.

If you can't appreciate that natural charm, with the natural pits and fissures, them a man made product is a better choice for you. Don't demand that a natural product resemble a man made product.

As far as a customer picking the slabs, that's fine. As long as the customer understands that they are potentially limiting the job that the fabricator can do if they pick slabs that only come in a certain size or have a certain movement, or have a high number of pits or fissures. If you want a granite with a great deal of movement, then you and your fabricator need partner to pick the slabs together so that you get the maximum movement, but also the input of how the seams might go together on the front end.

As far as a customer being there for templating, that again is fine, but it again sets limits on how your fabricator can approach the job, and your requirements may involve purchasing additional material with the associated costs to satisfy your desires. That is another reason that a customer should partner with their fabricator instead of setting up an adversarial relationship from the beginning.

And the placement of seams should NEVER compromise the structural integrity of the countertop! That's why it's a bit on the arrogant side for a customer to insist on telling a fabricator how to do his job in that area. If I were a fabricator, and your granite choice was one that is not easily worked, and you insisted on placing a seam in an area that I would consider a poor choice, I personally would make you sign a waiver absolving me as a fabricator of any potential damage during transport, installation, and use. You want to decide where to put the seams, you take the risk that that implies. Otherwise, partner with your fabricator together to choose a different granite, a different layout, or change your expectations about how a natural material can be fabricated and accept the seam where the professional thinks it should go. A good fabricator will balance out strength, longevity, and aesthetic concerns based on his/her experience. You're hiring them for that expertise. Allow them to use it to your benefit.

Shavawn - You were smart to take pictures! We didn't. But even if we had, I doubt the pits (or lack there of) would have shown up the way they do in my kitchen. Short of hiring an armed guard to stand over our slabs I don't see much that we could have done to avoid our slab switcheroo.

The KD and fabricator told me at the time of installation that the pitting was "normal". They refused to acknowledge that there was even a problem. So, no, there are no plans to make this right.

Livewire - I must be blunt - there is nothing charming or sanitary about having to pick cooking gunk out of crevices and pits with a toothpick. Had my granite not been coated with superglue, it would have required such tedious care! I think it is telling that my KD and granite people decided *amongst themselves* to apply the superglue after my granite was already installed and obviously a mess. I was told at the time that they were sanding down the "rough spots". I have since learned that it is far more likely that they were improperly painting my granite with some type of resin. I think their actions speak louder than any words I can say about the junky quality of granite I was sold.

Looking back, I really believe that the plan was to panic/bully me into buying new slabs. When that didn't happen, they used superglue to bring the granite up to countertop standards.

I agree that customers should partner with their fabricator to get good results. And I believe the ops idea to create a list of granite/fabrication standards would be really helpful to the average customer. And it would really help to prevent the "adversarial" relationships and sad stories that we sometimes see develop.

busymom, I in no way would say that a customer does not have the right to complain about a slab. The fabricator should point out the characteristics of different stones during the selection process. My customers always get a full education on the stone they are selecting. If there are high maintenance issues with a stone, I point it out to them. That is MY responsibility.

Just out of curiosity, what stone do you have? I would be more than happy to offer suggestions that may help you.

I am not going to say whether your slabs got switched. I don't know. Most stones do look different under different lighting. Is it possible that the pits were not as noticeable in the warehouse? Down here in the south, most of our customers view their slabs outside. Also, the pits can show up more once the tops are installed versus looking at the slab standing on edge on an A frame. If they did get switched, then I hate that for you. I'd be happy to help if I can.

I knew I liked that dmiller guy!! How nice of him!!!!

Thanks shavawn, I know there are a lot of "fabricators" in the stone business that don't handle their business properly. For a lot of them it is just plain ignorance. Too many people think that there is huge money to make in the stone business. This is not true for an honest shop that pays insurance and taxes. Truth be told, most good fabricators only have about a 12 percent profit average. That is hardly getting rich. The "hacks" as we call them make it more difficult for those of us that are trying to do right by the consumer. Some of us do educate their customers. I actually cater to a lot of very picky clients. I still get good referrals from them. All consumers need to really hold their prospective fabricators to a high standard before letting them cut their stone. Unfortunately, most people don't find out they made a bad choice until it is too late.

Dmiller - The granite I have is Baltic Brown. My selection process was a bit convoluted because I purchased my granite through a KD. The KD was the fabricator's direct customer.

Our KD told us to go to the granite warehouse and choose some slabs. The KD had contacts at the various warehouses we visited, but we were left more or less on our own to look at slabs. When we found some slabs that looked good to us, I ran my hand over them and they felt smooth. One of the workers saw me really checking the slabs out and told me not to worry. The top layers of the granite would be sanded down to create a smooth, polished surface. The warehouse people then moved about 5 slabs out side by side for us to look at. We did notice some pitting but it did not seem extreme. The pits did not seem rough and actually appeared to be below the surface of the granite. We chose the 2 we thought were the best. And we put those on reserve. We asked for a sample of the granite and a worker knocked off a piece from a slab that was actually *behind* the ones we had viewed. We then called our KD and let him know that we had found some slabs. We never spoke to the fabricator ourselves. We didn't know that we needed to.

A week or 2 later, I dropped by the warehouse again to compare a backsplash tile sample I had with the granite. The workers seemed really surprised to see me and, after a nervous conversation amongst themselves, they told me that my slabs had been run over by a forklift! In fact, the entire batch had been destroyed. They then took me to view a different slab of Baltic Brown. But it was very orange and had weird spots on it that looked like dried milk. I didn't like it and they told me that they would call me when the next batch came in. I was disappointed but not irrate.

When I got home, I called our KD. He told me that it sounded as though they had "sold the granite out from under us." He said he would get to the bottom of it. Later, he called back and told me that my granite had been found. It was with the fabricator. He gave me the fabricator's address (it is not in the book) and I drove over to make sure that my slabs were really there. I was relieved to see that they were. For the first time, I met the fabricator. I was feeling a little weird about the whole mix up that had just happened. So I asked him if everything was o.k. with the slabs. He said yes. I asked if they were good ones. He said yes. When I got home I called our KD and let him know that our slabs were indeed with the fabricator. I still felt like something was weird about the whole thing so when my husband got home I dragged him over to the fabricator's. Once again, we asked the fabricator if everything was o.k. with the slabs. And he said yes.

A week or so later, the granite people came out to do the template. And a week later the granite arrived for installation. And boy, was it ever pitted. But the kitchen guy insisted it was "normal." The granite people said it was "normal". To me it looked like a mess. But, hey, at least it wasn't orange.

A few days later, the kitchen people had the installers come back to finish the installation, seal the granite, and sand down the rough spots. This is when I believe they applied the superglue. Afterwards, the pits were much less noticeable.

We've had this granite for about a year now and some of the pits are getting rough again in high use areas like the sink. We have a lot of natural light in our kitchen so even with the resin the pits are pretty noticeable.

Do you think I have any recourse? I really appreciate your advice.

Baltic Brown is naturally a very pitted stone with some fissures. I've never seen a anything I'd call a "smooth" slab. Even resining won't really help with a stone that's as naturally pitted as BB. That's the natural characteristic of BB, and it should have been explained to you up front so that you could choose something else if you didn't want pits.

Honestly though, it really sounds as though you're an engineered stone type customer instead of a granite customer.

Well, I am sorry that you don't like your material. Unfortunately, Baltic Brown does have a lot of pits. I do not care for this stone personally, but it is a popular color. The stories of the material breaking and then being found could be a little suspicious. Tough call on whether the slabs got switched. If they got switched or not would not change the fact that all BB is pitted. Really small pits that may not be seen in one light can show up a lot better when the stone is installed, especially in front of windows. If your sample matches your tops, it probably did not get switched.

As far as the superglue, I would talk to the fabricator some more about this. Also get an opinion from an independent stone restoration professional.

busymom2006-

I would say (in my opinion) that at this point
(a year after the work is completed) that you do
not have much recourse - this is not your fault, but
rather a combination of things that have happened to
get you to where you are right now.

Here's a true story that happend to me almost 20 years ago:

I did a BB job for a customer - everything was "textbook"
ie: job was done on time, job looked great, no problems,
left the jobsite cleaner than we found it, customer was
thrilled with everything we did for her...yada yada..

Three days later... I get a call from the same customer -

"Uh.. Kevin...WHEN are your guys coming back out to fill in all of the
PITS in my BB?" she quiried... :-0 ...

uh, we don't fill in surface pitting - I said..

"WELL, So&So over at XYZ Stone, where I picked out the slabs - said you'd be happy to come
over and do that for me..." :-@ (at this point, I'm starting to freak out)

I'm thinkin to myself..."hey, So&So over at XYZ.. Thanks a PANT LOAD for VOLUNTEERING me to do that...!!!

I'm sharing that true story to make a point -

This was a valuable lesson that I learned a great deal from,
and fortunately, it did NOT result in me having to
replace the kitchen, but I changed the way that I educated
my customers from that day on...

You see, In my opinion, "IF my customer KNOWS what's coming,
they won't be shocked when it GETS there" - IF you had known
about the surface pitting of BB - would you still have selected it?

HAD you seen an example of BB laid flat so you could
actually appreciate the amount and the extent of the
surface pitting that shows up whem you look at the reflections
of immages on the surface of BB - would you still have
chosen it?

NOW - as a result of that experience 20 years ago,
EVERY potential customer of mine
that even THINKS they might be interested
in using BB (which is a wonderful stone) gets to hear
the story I just told you
and gets to see a table in the light, all so they
will be able to make an informed buying decision on
the type of stone they settle in on....

I belive in education BEFORE the sale - sure I don't
get every jobt that walks in the door, but I get most
of them if they want quality & experience.

The LAST THING I want to have, is that I'm
standing in somebody's kicthen at the conclusion of the work
and they are unhappy with what we did - not because of a poor
install, or poor workmanship, but rather because I did NOT
educate them enough, and then they say -

"Kevin, WHY didn't you TELL ME that there would be this
much pitting in Baltic Brown? I NEVER would have picked this
color HAD I KNOWN..."

I NEVER want to be in that position - EVER - I'd rather loose
the sale of a project, than go into it with my mouth shut,
and presume that my customer will "be OK with the pitting,
or the veins, or the fissures, or the shade variations..etc"

As far as your situation goes, I would second what dmiller
said, and contact some quality restoration companies.

you can also contact a friend of mine - Tom McNall - who
owns Great Northern Stone

http://www.greatnorthernstone.com

There's also a link on my web site to Tom's -
got to the "Restoration" page and scroll down to his link

Tom is probably the most knowledgable guys in the entire
restoration industry that can give you some honest answers
as to what your options are. I don't want to tell you
that there's a solution to your problem, as the surface
pitting issues in BB are hard to remedy - long term -
at the stage where you are at.

Tom is who I would contact to see if you ave any chance
of a remedy (at all) - other than starting over with different stone
(which is - I'm sure - not what you wanted to hear)

hope that helps

kevin

Kevin M. Padden MIA SFA
Fabricator, Trainer & Consultant to the Natural Stone Industry
www.azschoolofrock.com

Livewire, Dmiller, Kevin - I appreciate the input and suggestions. No, I never would have picked this stone if I had known of all the problems with pitting. I am just sick that we made such an inappropriate choice for our kitchen. All of that pitting looks awful. Particularly in all of the natural sunlight our remodel has let in.

And I'm just so mad -
Our KD had BB in his own kitchen at one point - why didn't he say something to us? He had to have known what that would look like in our light filled kitchen! I actually drove out to the fabricator's, not once, but twice, and asked him about our stone. How could he not of mentioned this horrible pitting?

Kevin, I would actually rather start over with another stone than sink any more of our hard earned money into this one. The idea that the surface may get even worse is really not what I want to hear. But I do appreciate your professional honesty and integrity. Thank you.

busymom, I truly hate to hear of your situation. If you do start over with a different stone, please make sure your next choice of fabricator takes the time to educate you on your stone. Kevin is a true professional. He and I both will answer any questions you have-honestly. While Kevin and I have not had the pleasure to meet in person yet, we are both members of the Stone Fabricators Alliance. Our organization is focused on educating consumers and trying to end the nightmares that have plagued an industry we love by substandard shops.

To all:
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE---
Take the time to research your fabricator and your stone selections. A rushed or uninformed decision leads to the problems busymom is having. Ask lots of questions. If you can't get straight answers, don't spend your money until you find the person that is willing to teach you about your stone.

Best of luck busymom. Let us know how everthing goes.

I appreciate the well wishes, dmiller.

It would be great if the Stone Fabricators Alliance would develop a list of reputable fabricators - ones that follow established customer education guidelines and proper fabrication procedures.

Believe me, the tactics of some of the less reputable ones are not easy for a novice to spot right away.

i find it's always best to allow people to do what they do best. imho, it's unreasonable to expect to find a stone without pits, fissures, etc... and if you're selecting the stone how is it possible for the fabricator to have any control over these demands? perhaps stone is not for you? i'm not saying you shouldn't shop around and learn as much as possible about what you are buying but you also must realize you're not just paying for a product. you're paying for service and professional guidance. and remember: bees to honey. 'nuff said.

You can go to our website at www.stoneadvice.com to find a map of all SFA members.

Kate, it sounds as though you've made an assumption that I was nasty in some way to my KD and/or fabricator? Is that what you meant by the "bees to honey" remark? I couldn't tell. But I can assure you that is not the case! All was well and quite good natured between KD and me until the "stuff hit the fan" so to speak (after the granite was installed and other issues came up). And I barely talked to the fabricator myself during the whole thing. So, really, what could I have possibly *said* that would in any way justify the acts of the so called professionals I consulted? If this was a matter of unrealistic expectations on my part, why didn't they just decline the job?

And, why do you think we buy our granite through a fabricator in the first place? Maybe, just maybe, its because people who don't fabricate/work in stone yards (ie laymen) are not qualified to know what fabrication techniques are necessary to make stones suitable for kitchen applications?

I realize that we all want to think ourselves invincible to these sort of happenings. But purses, even the purses of good people, get snatched every day by low life opportunists.

Busymom2006

If your Fabricator, KD and BB have any idea of what "Customer Satisfaction" means , they would offer to replace the granite immediately. .

You have to be very careful when selecting granite. Many people are substituting custom granite slabs with
pre-fabricated granite pieces that are being ship from China. Homeowners have no idea of the poor quality of stone that is being installed in their kitchens.

When Slab yards ship granite to fabricators, how can the fabricator confirm that the stone they are receiving, Is the stone that you selected? Many fabricators are kept behind close doors at the request of some contractors and designers. As a homeowner why not request the fabricators information? You have the right to meet with your fabricator and ask them what they really think about the stone and confirm that the stone they have is the stone you selected/purchased.

Fabricators are sometimes overlooked, after all who are they to second guess a designer or contractor. Only when it comes to problems that occurs are they pointed out as the professionals and the ones that should have known better..

Hi Toby -

We had a sick child and then the holidays so I'm just now reading this.

I agree. I can see how a fabricator couldn't possibly know what deals are struck behind the scenes between customers and KDs/general contractors. But in our case, I did, indeed, meet with the fabricator, asked him specifically about any problems with the granite and was told everything was fine with it. At the time, I really didn't know what type of detailed questions to ask him (why would I?). But I am positive that I got it across that I was looking for decent granite for our kitchen.

I do think they (the KD and fabricator) should replace our granite and fix our cabinets if they are damaged in the process.

But, I think that would have already been done had this been an *honest* mistake. What else can I think? Our kitchen people have seen this stuff.

If I were a KD, I would be shocked and horrified if a client had this sort of granite (a chinese blank!) cemented onto their brand new, hand made cherry cabinets!

Instead, I get: "Oh, its all like that."

Hi, everyone! I am a granite fabricator in the Charlotte, NC area. So, so to speak, I don't have a dog in this fight. I see that there is much misunderstanding from consumers about granite countertops. The biggest issue I see is that your fabricator is not educating you about stone and the process. There are a lot of hacks out there. Please be careful! DON'T ASK FOR REFERENCES! You'll get his sister, his cousin and his best friend. Ask for a list of his last 10-15 jobs. Call them. Ask them when their install took place and what was they're impression of the company and the quality of their work. If the job wasn't recent, he's giving you only people that he knows liked him. Does the fabricator have a showroom to show the quality of his work? Look at the seam work. Does he use a 'french seam?' This is a seam that will have a small cut at a 45% angle (usually about 1 1/2' long) and then a straight cut back to the wall.This is an indication of precut Chinese granite. It will give a square corner on the front edge. Run away from this. Proper inside corners are curved indicating they are from slab. Are they selling 2cm granite? We consider this an inferior product. You must pick your slab. Your fabricator should be with you to help choose. They should give you advise on a good slab or a bad one. The stone warehouse wholesaler really just wants to sell you anything. You should be able to place your template. Your fabricator will help you maximize the usage of the stone slab so you don't pay extra. I know that there is a lot of questions. If you would like to know any answers, I would be glad to help. You can reach me through our website or at 39dollargranite@gmail.com.

Wow! Your requests have red flags all over it. I'd be scared off because the job seems like to much of a risk.