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apartment-size appliances/layout

Posted by bungalow_house (My Page) on
Tue, Nov 5, 13 at 11:26

Hi. This might be the most modest kitchen remodel you've ever seen. :) We have a very small, very awkwardly-shaped kitchen in a 1930 house. It's really a tiny kitchen plus a breakfast room. This will be a galley kitchen with work triangle on one wall.

Here is the space. It is hard to photograph due to the size. Those wall cabinets are coming down too:
IMG_0609

And here is a measured drawing with a 24" wide fridge. This is just in the "kitchen" part, over to the arch wall:
Untitled

We have worked and re-worked the layout a million times and (I THINK) we are down to the last detail: fridge size. Our choices are a standard 27" wide 18 cu. ft. fridge, or a 24" wide 11-ish cu. ft. fridge. The small one gives us just a few more inches of counter space, more base cabinet space, and it might fit the scale of the room better (?). We are a family of four but we don't cook much so I think we could manage with the smaller fridge.

Considerations:

1) The things on either side of the sink could swap (i.e. fridge on the right and dishwasher on the left), but the only problem there is the arched entrance to the breakfast room. The arch is only 22" in on that wall, so the depth of the fridge would break the arch's visual plane. Hard to explain, but the fridge does not look good there. On the other hand, it doesn't look great on the other side of the sink either because it blocks your view of the window when you're walking into the kitchen. 6 of one, half a dozen of another there, but in both cases, I think smaller is better. We do plan to get the fridge first and try it on both sides of the sink to see which way is better aesthetically. Then we will order cabinets accordingly.

2) Resale: while I think I am ok with a tiny-by-U.S.-standards fridge, I doubt anyone else who would be looking to buy a home would be (although the house overall is very small so it is not really out of line....). We are not planning on selling anytime soon, but it's always a possibility that I am aware of. Getting a bigger fridge down the line would involve losing a base cabinet and replacing the countertop, which could scare some people away. Also, I could be fooling myself and wind up doing this work myself a few years from now.

FWIW, the other side of the room opposite the sink wall is a pantry door and door to the basement, so no significant room there for anything and it needs to be clear for traffic. Stove will go under the to-be-removed wall cabinets in the pic above just inside the breakfast room, with a worktable and maybe some wall shelves over the table to the right of the stove. This part of the kitchen will be unfitted. The overall look we're going for is vintage and simple. Think NYC apartment kitchens.

Any words of wisdom on fridge size (or anything else) would be appreciated. Thanks so much for reading all this...


Follow-Up Postings:

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one more photo

One more photo that might be helpful: this is a mock-up of the layout after we removed the old tile floor. The current fridge is very large, 33 inches wide, so even going down to the 27" wide fridge would be a vast improvement over this. But this gives an idea of how the fridge blocks the window, and if you can imagine moving it to the other side of the sink, how it would "cut into" the arch.

IMG_0607


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Can you post a layout with measurements of the whole space?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Just checking, you will NOT be using the breakfast room for eating, but as an extension of the kitchen? What else were you planning to go in there?
Also, can you go down to a 24" sink base?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Here's a rough drawing:

floorplan2


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Correct, the breakfast room will not be used for eating. I use that term only to help describe the space. It will be pretty much consumed with a stove and a bit of workspace to the right of it. If I can find a bookcase that is 36h x 12d x 24w I will try putting it on that exposed side of the stove to get a bit more storage and soften the look of that blank sheet metal space.

We could consider a smaller sink base, though I do like to put the trash and recycling under the sink, and making the sink base smaller might create another problem of where to put those two things. I don't like to look at them.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Sorry, one more thing. There is an old ironing board cabinet in the breakfast room opposite where the stove is going. It has been retrofitted with shallow shelves, and it will definitely be staying.

6kitchen3


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

we are remodeling our kitchen too and it has a funky layout.

i would suggest keeping clean lines all throughout your layout and avoid angles. our kitchen had too many angles jutting out into a small space and it just looked awkward.

have you considered a counter depth fridge? this would make everything along the sink wall flush, but you lose fridge storage space inside. since you don't cook much, may be it's not that big of a deal?

i would also consider taking out the window in the breakfast nook and make it into wall. then place the stove and a proper hood in the center of that new wall. you'll gain cabinet and counter space on both sides of the stove. i would leave the wall where you currently have the stove designed *empty*, so the lines from the sink wall run straight into the nook with no obstructions.

since space is tight, i would also consider wall cabinets that go all the way up the ceiling. i would include buying cabinets that go above the fridge too, to make that whole sink wall flush.

good luck!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Can't you move the fridge to the pantry and have on the opposite wall DW, sink and range and use the breakfast room for storage?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Based on your measurements, could you move the range to the wall when you enter the area to the left (measuring 54 inches) and install a 24 inch range? Use a 24 inch recirculating microwave as your vent? Then move fridge to right of sink (I agree try to find a narrow width counter depth fridge)? That may leave room for an 18 inch dishwasher installed to the left of the sink if you go with a smaller sink and cabinet. Then where the range is now, why not install a banquette with built in seating (with storage underneath) and maybe on the side as well. You could use a table on casters that lock so that you can roll it to the center of the kitchen as a prep island when needed. Also, cabinets all the way to the ceiling, including over the fridge.

I know this is far out and easy to suggest to someone who has been working with this long term when I am only looking at the space theoretically; but, that is what I would try to do to maximize efficiency and space. HTH


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

If you could get the fridge into the pantry, you could install a tall pantry unit to the left of sink, DW, then sink, then a nice corner cabinet that would extend out far enough to cover the side of stove. With the stove pushed to the edge of arch as you have it now (but now handsomely covered on the side by a corner cab, also giving you a safe workspace/landing space on either side of stove), you'd have room for lots of cabinetry in the nook, or even a breakfast counter across the back of the nook looking out the window if the view is nice.

This is a quick mockup I did in IKEA planner, but IKEA's widths likely wouldn't work as well for you as custom sizes because your space is so particular. E.g. all IKEA cabinets are 24" depth but you may prefer an 18" deep blind corner covering the stove to get more width on your sink run.

To get more of an unfitted look, you could go custom base cabs and do all open shelving on top. Or use furniture style bases on your lowers.

I think the nicest look for this kitchen would be to do cabinetry just across the back of the nook with the range centered at the back, but would require lots of window surgery. Imagine how nice it would be to have range, nice range hood, and two narrow windows extending down to counter on either side.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

The thread below features a nice photo of a range in front of a kitchen window....would require less window surgery although as I understand it the window would likely have to be replaced with a non-operational unit. Here's a take on that....to compensate for lack of counters, I added a small butcher block cart.

Here is a link that might be useful: Range in front of window with photo of Angie's

This post was edited by robotropolis on Wed, Nov 6, 13 at 0:56


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

What are the other measurements? The width of each window & doorway and the distances b/w the windows & doorways and the walls on either side? We can guess, but with a kitchen this size, even a couple of inches off could throw off the entire proposal...assuming you are open to new design ideas...

About that refrigerator - You will probably need a narrow cabinet b/w the refrigerator and the wall to allow whatever refrigerator you decide on to open fully. Do you have room in your basement for an additional refrigerator? That might compensate for the smaller refrigerator in the Kitchen.

Regarding the 24" OTR MW someone suggested - from what I've heard here recently, they are becoming very difficult to find. Additionally, for resale, I think a 24" range would be a deal-breaker for a lot of people.

Is the rest of the house small as well? I.e., is it unlikely someone else with a family would buy this house - that it would most likely be a single person/empty nesters/couple with no children? If so, then smaller appliances may not hurt resale all that much. OTOH, if it's big enough for a family with kids, then you may have a tough time selling with all the small appliances...unless, this is typical of the homes in your area. I.e., none of them have any more space than what you have.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Could you include the stove area in your floorplan? Without it it's difficult to envision what you're entire kitchen area is - I'm confused re: the intended use of the two rooms, or what's on the other side of the wall (since you described it as a galley kitchen, which implies counters on both sides).

I'd definitely stick with a 24" cabinet for the sink - many sinks will fit into that space (even the one I just bought that claims it needs a 27" cabinet - just cut your countertop carefully and install the sink to the countertop before the countertop is placed on the cabinets if necessary). The space under the sink is the least useful cabinet space there is - I try to allocate as little as possible to the sink cabinet, and as much as possible to other base cabinets. Two other sink tips: a D-shaped sink (that places faucetry on the left and right corners so it can extend almost all the way to the back to the wall elsewhere) gives you the most sink space for the width, and most of these also have the drain positioned at the back so plates and pans won't cover up the drain, and so the disposer underneath will also be at the back of the cabinet rather than in the center in the way of everything. If that won't fit because of your plumbing setup, a rectangular sink with the drain at either back corner offers some of those advantages too (i.e. Franke GNX11020, which is only 20" wide yet has plenty of space in it; Elkay has several less expensive ones). And if you go with any sort of solid-surface countertop (i.e., not laminate), use an undermount sink, which will spare you about 2-1/2" of sink rim on either side adding 5" of countertop width, as well as making it possible to easily sweep crumbs into the sink without them getting lodged in the crevice around the sink rim. These countertops (Corian, Silestone, granite, etc.) are more expensive than laminate, but since we're talking a small size, it shouldn't get too expensive.

For the fridge, there are very tall (about 77") fridges that are only 24" or 27" wide and 24" deep refrigerators available, like those sold by Blomberg or Summit, which would preserve your window view and countertop space, but still have decent space for food, and the fridge-on-top configuation with drawer in the freezer below is convenient. Much more readily available are the similarly-configured 32"w counter-depth units from Samsung or Fisher & Paykel if you can find the space, though these aren't as tall.

As an alternative to a 18" dishwasher, consider the Fisher & Paykel DishDrawer which is 24" wide but only 16" or 19" tall. Changing to a 24" sink cabinet would give you the necessary space with the design layout you posted. I like using these with a 6" tall drawer on top and another 6" to 8" drawer on bottom - that top drawer would be very handy in your kitchen. Or you can put the dishwasher at the top with two drawers or one deep drawer on the bottom. They make them in two different heights; I like the tall one better since you can probably stack full-height glasses on both sides, but the racks on both sizes are very well designed and very flexible, so that almost any available space can be used for either glasses, plates, or cookware. The left and right sides both have two flip-down shelves for cups or glasses, and they can be raised or lowered to any height to match the height of whatever you have. BTW, Whirlpool also makes this type of dishwasher for several of their brands (Kitchenaid, Jenn-Air etc) as well as Kenmore, but they aren't as good.

Instead of a 24" range, I like to use a separate cooktop and oven. It makes for a cleaner-looking installation with no gaps on either side, and gives you the versatility to place the cooktop somewhere other than over the oven if it suits your space better. And even if you place the cooktop over the oven, it can add storage space - several 24" ovens are only 24" tall which leaves space for a 24" wide, 6" tall drawer below or above the oven, adding useful space you wouldn't get if you used a range. I like the ones with a side-hinged door the best because it make it really easy to get at your food, but only two companies sell 24"w ovens with side-opening doors in the US - Gaggenau (excellent but very expensive) and Fagor which may go bankrupt in a few days (but whose oven is very nice - I just bought one). But there are lots of them available with the more common drop-down doors that are the same size.

Do you really cook with 3 or 4 burners at the same time? If not, use a 2-burner cooktop that's only 12 to 15" wide; several good brands sell them in both electric and gas. Use one and suddenly you have 9" to 12" of extra countertop space that even a 24" cooktop or range wouldn't give you. As a bonus, they're also less expensive - even ones from high-end brands are usually affordable. But if two burners aren't enough, there are lots of good 24" cooktops that use almost all the available space for burners and have as much space for cookware as many 30" cooktops that use the rightmost 6" for knobs. Some of these are so thin you can have a full-height drawer directly beneath them.

There are 24"w microwaves that hang from a wall cabinet, but none I've seen incorporate exhaust fans or double as range hoods. A common 30"w microwave/hood combo is a good space saver, although usually not a very good range hood, and the microwave interior can't be very deep because it needs to fit between 12" deep wall cabinets without protruding too much. I find it annoying not to be able to fit a pizza box into a microwave.

(apologies to anyone here who's read my cut-and-paste small-kitchen spiel for the thirteenth time....)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Since you already have the shallow recessed cabinet, could you add one or two more in that space? They would take the place of a regular pantry, at least for small things like oil. Even cereal boxes would fit, face frontwards just like at the grocery store. You might even be able to find vintage doors for them.

And just wondering, are you currently living in the house, or remodeling before moving in?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thanks to everyone for responses.

BusyBee, yes, I thought about extending the counter around the corner between the sink and the stove, but wondered about how that would feel jutting out into the space. The problem with counter-depth fridges is they seem to be wide, and we have such limited width to work with. I thought about removing or moving that back window as well. Removing it would leave the room with one small west-northwest window, so it would be pretty dark. Moving it would be relatively expensive. We are cash-flowing this, it's a pretty modest house to begin with, and we did a "dream kitchen" in the last house and didn't recover that money so we are hesitant now to do anything that wouldn't at least pay us back. Putting the stove under that back window is one of the many options we considered. We even tried it there for a few weeks. It seemed VERY far away from the sink/fridge while cooking. Even though we've only moved it a couple of steps closer, it makes a big difference when you're cooking, and that side wall dimension is actually wider than the window wall. I could center the stove on the side wall, but that just scoots it farther away from the sink/fridge. And yes, what little wall cabinets we have will go to the ceiling. I hesitate to do a fridge surround because of being so wish-washy on the size of the fridge.

sena, the fridge would fit in the pantry, but it would very tight in there. I think it would be clausterphobic and not enough room to navigate. When we get the new one we might wheel it in there and give it a test though. I think food/dish storage is a better use of that space. (It was actually converted to a half-bath when we moved here. Oh how I hated that. We removed it. It's nice to have a bath downstairs but yeesh -- that is NOT the place for one, and we need room for the KITCHEN in the kitchen first.) I don't have dimensions but it's probably 3' deep and 4' wide so I can get a lot of cereal boxes in there.

sreedesq, the stove was there originally when we moved in this past summer. I will add some photos. It was fine except you were standing in the sink space and stove space at the same time. That would work for a single person, but if someone wants to use the stove and another person needs to get to the sink, it is problematic. Also the counter space that resulted in the corner wasn't very usable, and then you didn't have a good workspace while cooking. With the full-size stove that was there, there is no space for a dishwasher. (And that's what got this whole layout change started in the first place...) We do not really need the kitchen to be an eat-in kitchen. The dining room is close and it is not formal. A place for 1 or 2 to sit in the kitchen to talk to someone who is working in there would be nice, but I don't think it's going to happen. I am thinking about a very small table on casters that can be used in the center of the kitchen when needed, and pushed off to the space between the doors when not needed.

robotropolis, I would love to squeeze a breakfast counter across the back of the breakfast nook. The backyard view is lovely. By leaving the stove area unfitted, I'm hedging my bets on something like that! :) I originally wanted to put the stove in front of the window for that reason, but functionally it is inferior. Thank you for taking the time to do the mockups. That tall cabinet in the corner is actually quite appropriate for an early 20th century kitchen, so that is intriguing. The only problem is there really is not enough space to put the fridge on the opposite wall. I'll post a couple of photos to give a feel for the space. I know it is hard to visualize from a floorplan, but you would walk into the kitchen and kind of walk smack into the side of the fridge. Also, it would have to be a solo fridge, no room for a cabinet beside it. I prefer to have a place to put down a glass while I get the milk out. Also keeping everything on the same side of the room is better if someone else is passing through the space.

buehl, attached are some more measurements and photos. I'm open to other ideas but I'm skeptical. I've been living this for a few months, even moving things around a bit, and this is the best I can come up with. Is there a problem with the refrigerator door opening only 90 degrees? I had a setup in an apartment like that once, and I don't remember it being a problem, except maybe to get the crisper drawer out? In that case I could pull the fridge forward and angle a bit to give myself some room temporarily. I read reviews on small stoves and people complained about not being able to fit their pots/pans on side-by-side burners. There is enough room in the current plan for a regular full-size stove. Yes, the house is small. 3 bedrooms but the closets in 2 of the 3 bedrooms are very shallow, like only big enough for kid-size hangers, so the only buyers of a house like this are probably singles or couples with no children, and a very tiny number of freaks like me who want to "live small". :) That said, I do think this an exceptionally challenging kitchen for the area and era of the house. In my experience they tend to be just a smidge bigger, and a smidge would make a big difference here.

lee, the stove area is the 84 x 70 area in the above floorplan. The use for the two rooms is kitchen only, no eating space needed. The other side of the room is mostly doors -- nothing usable except maybe a little vertical hanging space or a very shallow (like 12") cabinet. I will consider the sink/cooktop/oven info you offered. For right now we are hanging on to the existing stove, but since that space will be unfitted for now, I can explore those options down the road. Thank you for speiling a thirteenth time. :)

bpathome, I think we are ok on food storage with the pantry. I was thinking about hanging a potrack on that wall beside the ironing board cabinet, or incorporating some other kind of vertical storage. We are living in the house. We just really lost the kitchen 2 days ago for the flooring. Once that is finished, we will temporarily move the old sink/stove/fridge back in. When we decide on a size for the new fridge, we'll get that and try it in a few different spots. We can take our time trying out the new layout. When we decide on the final layout, then we'll order cabinets. We are doing this ourselves so we can take our time.

I will post a few more pictures to help give a feel for how tight things are in this room.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Floorplan with window and door dimensions (these include trim). Worth mentioning the 29" of space between the 2 doors has a 1" jog out, so it is not flat. Originally I wanted to take that wall out and put the fridge and a small cabinet over there, but there is a load-bearing wall behind it, and an asbestos-covered hvac duct in it. Not worth it.

floorplan2

This is the view from the dining room door. The wood cabinet was not great and is gone. (We thought that wall was coming down....) We could replace it with something similar but I am not terribly concerned about it at the moment, and I like that the traffic doesn't have to veer around something there.

6kitchen1

This is the only shot I have showing how tight a full-size stove and sink are. It limited the use of the kitchen to 1 person, and there is no space for a dishwasher.

6kitchen2-2


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Oh my bungalow gods, you have the same kitchen I do! Well, very nearly - the overall measurements are exactly the same, but the entryway from the dining room to the kitchen is on the left, and the doorway from the kitchen into the back entry is slightly narrower; I believe the doorway itself is 28" plus trim, so that gains nearly 10" over your layout. I also don't have a pantry; that wall is flat. The existing layout is:
Along your pantry wall: 30" fridge in the corner, ~20" gap, 30" range against the doorway. The fridge in the corner with a 90 degree swing hasn't been a problem except for the day that I spilt maple syrup and broke a glass shelf trying to remove it.
Along window wall: the original cabinets, 22" deep, with an added 4" bumpout in front of the window to accommodate a full-sized sink. The uppers are hung 13" above the counters!

I've been lurking here for over two years since I moved in. My goals are to incorporate a dishwasher and some additional pantry/food storage space.

Do you have the ability to narrow the doorway to the back entry? I wonder if you could put the fridge between the doorway and the pantry; that might allow for a 30" fridge. And then on the other side... What are your plans for the 22" depth? Are you intending to put in standard-depth cabinets or try to stay within the 22"?

(I'm sorry, I don't know how to create a mock layout. If I did, I would have posted mine by now!)


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One last photo, this is the ironing board cabinet, basement door, little bit of space where something could go, pantry door, and the blue sheet is over the door to the dining room. We took the pantry door off the hinges because it is just in the way. If I can keep the pantry looking neat, I will leave the door off. It opens into the entrance to the kitchen, so if you're getting something out of the pantry, you block anyone else coming into the room.

IMG_0620[1]

Maybe also worth mentioning is there is a closet on the other side of the basement door, which can hold some kitchen overflow as well. I have a shelf in it for less-frequently used pots/pans/gadgets. Otherwise I use it for the dirty kitchen laundry basket, mop bucket, cleaning supplies, backyard birdseed, etc., and misc. stuff that needs to go down to the basement but I'm too lazy to go all the way down...

Minnesota, that is too funny! I'm not really surprised though. There were only so many ways they built houses back in those days. It sounds like you still have the original cabinets -- that is great. I would love to see pictures if you're willing to post. I'll bet the original cabinets here were only 22" deep too. Based on the way the wall looks, I think there were always built-in cabinets on the sink wall. Do you know the book Bungalow Kitchens by Jane Powell? If you're at all interested in the way kitchens used to look, find it. She does mention shallower cabinets and wall cabinets hung lower than today's standards. That book was my bible for my last house (1922) kitchen remodel. I will not be quite so stringent with this one, but still will stick very closely to it. I can squeeze a fridge between the pantry and basement doors, but there would be nowhere to put things down after I pulled them out of the fridge. And the view into the kitchen will be...the side of the fridge. I wish the door into the kitchen were in the MIDDLE of that wall. We thought about moving it but again that seems like an expense that we probably wouldn't recoup. I will give the fridge a try there during our lag time though.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Oh, forgot to answer your question about cabinet -depth. We will go with standard 24". If I were having them custom built, I would definitely do 22". It never occurred to me to ask if they could be made into 22" depth. I suspect it would be cost-prohibitive but I should check.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

If you do go with 22" deep cabinets, be sure your dishwasher is shallow enough so it doesn't stick out a few inches from the cabinets. With 24" wide dishwashers, most of the European manufacturers like Miele and Asko make shallow-tub dishwashers since European cabinetry is closer to 22" than the American-standard 24". Bosch dishwashers used to be like this until very recently, but now only the low-end models and the very top of the line still are; the mainstream models use a deeper tub made for 24"d cabinets. With 18" wide dishwashers by contrast, most brands use shallow tubs that will work well with 22" depth cabinets.

The Fisher & Paykel drawer I mentioned needs at least 22-1/16" of depth in the cabinet. It's one of only a few dishwashers that are actually installed in a cabinet; most just are placed between them, with nothing between them and the countertop or back wall.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Any chance to open pantry up to put fridge on that wall?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

You can use wall mounted table (s), counter extension in your kitchen.

 photo wallmounteddropleaftable.jpg

Or something like below (maybe shorter) as extra counter/cutting board.

 photo cekmecedencikanmasa.jpg

I'm no expert, but since you did consider having the range in front of the back window, I came up with a layout with the range in front of the other window and sink and DW in the breakfast area with some shallow (12-15" deep), 42 high base cabs and uppers plus a small wall mounted bar table (36" x18"-- we had a 35"x 17.5" one and it wasn't too bad for 2 people to have breakfast).

 photo apartment-sizeappliances.jpg

 photo apartment-sizeappliances1.jpg

 photo apartment-sizeappliances2.jpg

You can have uppers or shelves b/w the range and the wall. MW could be there or in the pantry.

Also for extra storage you might consider toe kick drawers or drawers under the sink. I have a 27" sink base and 24" sink plus 3" filler in the drawing.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I was thinking the same thing about putting the fridge in the pantry - it looks just the right depth and wide enough for a nice big side-by-side or French-door 36"w fridge, if the door frame can be removed. Or maybe a 32" fridge with a narrow shelf/cabinet at one side. The lost pantry space could be made up by extra cabinet space on the main wall, perhaps an 18"w tall pantry cabinet which would also increase the countetop width.

I like not putting anything between the pantry and basement door (except maybe a fold-out counter) for a easier entry and a clean look from the dining room.

Also, does that arch thing have anything key to the structure inside that would prevent it from being removed so the kitchen would look like one big room instead of two small rooms?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

What is to the right of the breakfast nook wall?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Bungalow_House: As I spy on my neighbors' kitchens via real estate listings, I've found this to be an unusual layout (hence my excitement!), but my sample size and knowledge are limited. I found Jane Powell's "Bungalow Kitchens" to be quite informative and interesting. I learned a great deal, but felt a little hopeless about my "dishwasher dream" after! I will try to find the pictures from the real estate listing and post them. I'd love to see photos of your previous kitchen renovation if you ever have the chance! (My email address is my username at gmail if that would be better.)

I see what you mean about the view into the kitchen being the fridge if you place it between the pantry and the back door. Replacing the original swinging door between the dining room and the kitchen would hide that, although there still wouldn't be a landing place for the fridge. With the 22" space - if you install 24" cabinets, obviously the dishwasher won't be a problem. Another thought: there's a few inches in the plaster and lath, and the previous owners "bought" some space by moving plumbing into the plaster wall. My cabinets are 22" at either end, with the sink under the window being 24" (previous owners added the 4" and moved the cabinet "face" forward; rather clever, I thought).


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Maybe something like this? Just a quick idea :)

From Kitchen plans


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Really, you'd put the dishwasher 7 feet away from the sink?

(and moving the dishwasher next to the sink in that layout would render a 2 ft. x 2 ft. section of cabinet space in the corner unusable, and the doors to the dishwasher, cabinet, and oven would get in each other's way.)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I believe there's a main sink and a prep sink in the above layout. That's how I read it, anyway. Which does make it into a pretty effective two cook kitchen by completely separating prep and cleanup zones.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Wed, Nov 6, 13 at 21:43


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

You bungalow is charming with loads of character. What are the adjoining spaces to the kitchen? Would you consider opening up a wall and/or moving doorways? I would not dismiss custom until you have priced it out. Some custom cabinetmakers are less expensive that stock places...you just may be surprised. I also agree with suggestion to recess the refrigerator into the pantry space. Only I would removing the casing so the refrigerator can go all the way back such that when you are in front of it you do not block the entryway to the kitchen. Also, would weigh the pros/cons of keeping the arch; it does add character at same time it would make for a more cohesive design without it.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Here's a somewhat ugly looking plan which could be improved on...

I put a big drainboard sink in a 48" blind corner cabinet tucked in to the corner. Papertowel and supplies can live in the back corner and your trash and recycle in the front.

Open shelves hold everyday dishes to right of sink. This could also be a shelf down to counter with bottom nook as appliance garage.

Rounded corner shelves lead to the stove run featuring a tray pullout on one side and pot drawers on the other, safe amount of landing space on both sides of stove.

Two stools tuck into a tiny breakfast bar at the back. Fridge lives a few inches out from the wall to left of window.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thanks again for all the comments, everyone.

We did initially plan to take the pantry out and use that space for the refrigerator and cabinets. Unfortunately there is a plumbing stack, load-bearing wall, and asbestos-covered HVAC duct in the 2 walls involved. It’s just not worth the expense at this point.

lee, good point about the dishwasher depth. Thanks for the info. Yes, I think that arch is probably a load-bearing wall. It is the back wall of the house. The “breakfast room” part is just a box addition on the back of the house.

bpathome, there is a small screened porch to the right of the breakfast nook wall. Taking over that space might be an option someday but it’s way more than we can bite off right now.

sena, a wall-mounted table is a great idea. I had not thought of that! We did consider putting the stove where you have the sink in that floorplan, trying to get an L or U shape out of the work-triangle, but we were using the full-width stove. A sink would be narrower and might work better. We will play with that.

Minnesota, I had another house that had a very similar layout to this: small kitchen with breakfast nook added on. We remodeled that kitchen too, and wound up putting the fridge in the breakfast nook and extending the cabinet run into it around the nook wall. On that one, the exterior wall lined up, though, so it worked a little more smoothly than this one. Unfortunately I don’t have any pictures of that one. I remember seeing someone mention a sink with a dishwasher under it. I have not seen such a beast, but you might be able to make use of something like that. Bumping into the wall a little is genius too. Or can you just bump out the area next to the sink also to accommodate the dishwasher? I’m pretty sure I remember a picture in Bungalow Kitchens of a sink or dishwasher bumped out. It didn’t look as odd as it sounds. I will email you some pictures of my previous kitchen. You know, I have looked the dining room doorway here up and down and I cannot figure out the deal with it. There are no hinge/lockset holes, nothing patched, nor are there any holes where swinging door hardware would attach, AND it has a doorstop. I don’t know what the original deal was. My previous houses were: 1927 swinging door, 1922 hinged door, 1910 swinging door, but this one is a mystery. It looks as if it was designed for a hinged door but the builder just didn’t install one.

lavender, thank you for the drawing. We DID consider a prep sink in the back. Even toyed with the idea of an undercounter fridge to supplement the tiny one in the other end of the kitchen. Likewise we thought about putting the sink/dishwasher in the breakfast room part and the stove fridge in the other part. Unfortunately, I don’t think the fridge will work in the pantry due to space and/or blocking the entrance to the kitchen while someone is looking in the fridge, but we will put it in there and give it a go. It would solve a lot of problems.

valinsv, thank you. The dining room and basement stairs/back porch adjoin this space. We are at the property line on the sink wall side. The dining room is small already so we can’t usurp any space from there. The stair/back porch direction would be very complicated and expensive. There is a ton of room in the back yard. Someday, someone should do a kitchen expansion and family room back there. The neighborhood property values would support it, but I don’t think it will be us.

robotropolis, thank you for that mockup. That is VERY interesting. We talked about un-tethering the sink from the window, but not in that particular spot. I like how you got a breakfast bar in there as well! What size are the appliances and sink in that drawing? My only problem with that design is that I want this kitchen to feel old, like it could have been original to the house in 1930, and I don’t think a sink would ever have been off-center of the window like that. This is something I am going to have to wrestle with...


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

The stove is 30", DW is 24" and fridge is 24" although I think you could squeeze a 30" fridge in there. But of course it would obstruct view of the window a bit.

I agree that the sink looks nice centered under the window. However I think you may be surprised how little it actually impinges on the look of the kitchen at the end of the day. You could also reverse the drainboard to over the dishwasher, that might help pull the sink visually to the left.
An inspiration pic:

(from dwelement.com)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Something else to consider would be to have someone make the archway narrower. Sounds crazy, but we did it in a 1902 house and just a few inches made a difference in what we could tuck in beside it. The fridge in the pantry is being beaten to death here because it would make the kitchen workable. I understand the worry about it blocking the doorway when it's open, but is this kitchen a path heavily used to another room? Our current galley kitchen is THE passageway to the backyard and we moved a wall one foot because it moved the frig out of the path just enough. I really like robotropolis' last mockup, but with a frig recessed into the pantry doorway. You'd lose pantry space, but make up some of it in wall cabinets to the left and right of the window.
Also, don't discount custom made cabinets!!! We have a very small kitchen, 9.5' x 10.5' and made use of every inch without costing much more. Many people here have actually found it to cost less.
BTW, I really like this space. Character and lots of light!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thanks clueless! We considered narrowing the arch too, but it still didn't help us come up with any better ideas. Well, it did lead to the idea of scrapping the dishwasher, leaving the sink/fridge/stove in the main "kitchen" part, and making that "breakfast room" part a laundry room. (W/D are currently in the sort-of gross basement.) But I can't convince my partner to live without a dishwasher.

Through that dining room door is the only way to get to the basement and the back door. I'm less concerned about those than I am about simply blocking the kitchen door. I think it will cause a bottleneck, frustrating everyone who wants to get individual access to the fridge, sink, trash can, coffee maker, etc. at the same time. The floor is being refinished at the moment. When it's safe to move appliances back in there, we will try the fridge in the pantry.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Lee676- Doesn't everyone put their dishwasher 7 ft from their sink? LOL No, that's a prep sink, with the 'main' sink next to the dishwasher. Fridge in pantry, range over by prep sink.

Robo- That mock-up looks really nice! I like the view from the stools and it's a nice view from the dining room. Function looks great...it would be nice to fit in a bit more upper cabinet space, but it's a small kitchen...and they do have a big pantry :)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

The only thing I can think of that's missing in robo's mockup is drawer space near the sink. Flatware? Also need some space for dishcloths and towels, dishwashing gear like bottlebrushes, sponges, and scrubbers; and a place for things used at the sink and fridge like pasta strainer, plastic wrap, etc.. I'm not opposed to keeping some things out on the counter or open shelving, but that could add up to a lot of clutter. That's the intent of all those drawers in the plan at the top of the thread.

I need to find out if I could get a trash and recycling can into a 24" sink base. Does anyone know? My experience with 30s has been tight just because of the disposal and plumbing. If it works, that might be the solution, and I can use the plan I posted above but have 30" for a refrigerator. Or maybe I could put the trash and recycling in the pantry.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

What if you got rid of the lower shelves and had the drawers on the right side of the sink? That would give you some storage, but less prep space by the range. Maybe a pull out shelf, instead?

The garbage could go in the pantry or a small one under the sink, large one in pantry?

It seems like the best solution, so far :)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

You could replace the corner shelves and tray pullout with 24" drawers facing the sink.. Anyway, there's a 24" square space to play with there. Maybe an interesting thing would be 18" wide drawers facing sink with 6" deep spice storage facing same way as stove. You could do a nice trim down the 6" blank space facing sink.

I deliberately kept the stove right to the left edge of the alcove to keep a buffer between stove and breakfast bar. Plus big drawers are awesome.
I was also thinking this might be a nice kitchen for pegboard storage along ironing board wall.

I have a fridge now that blocks exit from kitchen when open. It IS annoying but the fridge is only open a few minutes a day. Nevertheless will be glad to see that little design feature gone. It would be better if we had a French door fridge for sure.

It occurs to me that if your breakfast bar folded down you could squeeze one last bit of storage (24" worth) on range wall under the bar. I have all 70" under bar open. I dunno. It's good knee space and you could tuck a recycling bin or small cart under there instead.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Thu, Nov 7, 13 at 18:12


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I'm going to blaspheme here and suggest this: put a cooking station -- range, counters, cabinets -- all the way across the nook just the other side of the arch. Yep, close the nook off. You get all your cooking station closer to the sink, fridge, and pantry. Now, what about the rest of the nook? Well, you'll have about 4-5' by 7' space. Add a door the screen porch, and you have serving space for the porch.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Drawers would definitely be more useful than shelves by the sink.

bpathome, you get an a+ for thinking outside the box with that suggestion. The only problem is the breakfast room and screened porch are not on the same level, so a door wouldn't work. I can't think of a way to make those few feet useful without some major rework on the backside.

2exback2


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Bungalow, thanks for the grade! But darn, as always my ideas open up a whole can of worms--and dollars. I suppose you could just get a trampoline to vault over the stove...D- for that idea!

I like your window styles, BTW!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Would you be open to moving or enlarging the window currently over the sink? We made the original opening larger, expanded left, in our kitchen and added another window. Allowed us to move the sink down and still be centered on something. Since you don't have to deal with brick exterior, not a huge extra cost.IMG_1470 photo IMG_1470.jpg photo IMG_3117.jpg


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I was thinking one of those arched bridges you see in Asian gardens. Not joking -- it crossed my mind! Trampoline would be much faster! :)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

clueless, the window in that last pic is the one on the breakfast nook bump-out. That and the upstairs are siding but the rest of the first floor of the house is -- brick. :(


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

:-(

 photo bungalow_zpsafe70fac.png


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

You don't have to go custom to get your sizes in cabinets. Many semi-custom cabinet lines allow size changes. We have UltraCraft. You can change the size in height, width, depth, or all three in 1/16" increments at no extra charge.

Do a search for sinks not centered under windows. Our sink is not centered and I really never notice it.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

OR, best case scenario, fridge works in pantry and sink can be centered! That's my best case anyway ;) Then regular or blind corner cab in that corner and rest is about the same.

PS what's the width of that arch? I realized the stove will have to come over for the hood to be centered over stove.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 12:17


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

angela, I will check on that. We are doing semi-custom, I think.

robot, I don't know what that dimension is, and the floor is being poly-ed at the moment so I won't be able to get in there for a few days. I'd guess it's 4-5"? That's the reason we had the stove in from the corner about 12". At the moment I'm not concerned about a hood. We don't cook a lot, and when we do it is rare that we use a fan since it is so loud, and I think light will be ok. I figure if I really need to exhaust something I can always open that window and stick an exhaust fan in it!

This post was edited by bungalow_house on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 14:22


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Two comments:

If you haven't done so, look into Liebherr refrigerators. The are genuinely counter depth but 80" tall, so they provide good cubic feet for their width. They are pricey, but I recall that various posters on this forum have gotten floor models or otherwise not-quite-perfect fridges for good discounts. Check ebay; their offerings change often.

Isn't the quality of thought and care and imagination that people in this forum devote to helping other people sort out challenges amazing? Plus everybody has a pretty good time.

Here is a link that might be useful: liebherr fridges on ebay today


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

You will end up with more usable counter and lower cabinet space if you eliminate the awkward "jut around" from the sink area to the cooking area. You will also eliminate the need for seams in your counter top material.

You may want to consider a 60 wide restaurant grade under the counter refrigerator, and put a 30" restaurant freezer, also counter height, in your pantry area. This are a bit deeper than standard, but can be worked into the sink area because of the jut around you have. You can get a fridge with glass doors. This will give you more counter space, and allow for more usable uppers. I don't think it will harm the resale, either, if you get a nice unit, though any time you are choosing non-standard 'premium' type items, a future buyer may be concerned about replacing it. The value of the home should dictate the amount you spend on this update.

What is your project budget?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

honorbilt, 1) those Liebherr refrigerators are gorgeous. They would be budget-busters for me, unfortunately.

And 2), YES! I am amazed that people are following what's being discussed here. It makes my head hurt to read it and I am writing it. Though I have to say I'm starting to feel like the Seinfeld Soup Nazi -- everytime someone offers a helpful alternative, I slap them on the back of the hand with a soup ladle and say "NO SOUP FOR YOU!"....

(OT, do you have an Honor Bilt house? I don't think I've ever had a kit house, never saw any signs that they were kits. I have a couple of catalogs that I love to look at.)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

detroit, we thought about an under the counter fridge too. In addition to the pantry, there is a space on the other side of the basement door that might be big enough for a small fridge or freezer. In the end we thought it might be too unconventional and harmful for resale value. This is an ultra tight budget...we have about $7k left for the sink wall. We are doing as much of the work as possible ourselves. We really want to try to stick with the budget because the house value is modest. If we want to do something with the stove area later, that option will still be open.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I apologize if this has been asked before but is it possible to move the doorway into the kitchen? If so then you could do more of true galley layout utulizing the pantry and putting counters on the adjacent 29" wall, perhaps even the refrigerator.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Throwing this idea out there for your sink trash,etc. If you have a 24" sink base, you could make one big drawer out of the whole cab like in this picture.

 photo undersink-organization-drawer_zps325f89c3.jpg

Also, I read through the whole thread (such a cute kitchen and there is a perfect layout... keep an open mind to all suggestions if they are structurally doable) and have to say the fridge in the pantry is really the only thing that seems to make sense. Maybe you'd have room next to it for a tall pull-out pantry cabinet, too?

And, I don't believe anyone mentioned a dishwasher drawer either (or I missed it). But then you'd be able to have a decent drawer underneath it and retain a little storage space.

Here is a link that might be useful: undersink trash


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Bungalow- I know you said there isn't room to recess the fridge by the pantry...is there room to recess a pantry, there? Could you put the fridge into the walk-in pantry and recess a shallow pantry next to it?

Clueless has a wonderful kitchen and it gave me an idea. What if you put the range on the end, as she has...and then a prep sink in the corner? You could move the clean up area back beyond the arch and keep you main work triangle closer to the dining room. This would give you upper dish storage and drawer storage. Would this work?

From Kitchen plans


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I apologize if this has been asked before but is it possible to move the doorway into the kitchen? If so then you could do more of true galley layout utulizing the pantry and putting counters on the adjacent 29" wall, perhaps even the refrigerator.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

val, yes, we considered moving the dining room door. Originally we were going to widen it when the plan was to remove the pantry and put the fridge in its place, making the kitchen mostly open to the dining room. Since we can't do that part, the moving or widening of the dining room door isn't very useful. We did try the stove in that 29" between the basement and pantry doors. It fits but then the kitchen felt very small. One thing we noticed about putting all the appliances on the other wall is how much bigger the kitchen felt that way. That's another reason I don't think the fridge in the pantry will work...I think it will feel needlessly cramped. I understand how utilizing the pantry side of the room looks good on paper, but in real life, it just doesn't feel right. I'm grateful that we are doing this ourselves and using our old stuff, shuffling around to test all these layouts!

deedles, that is a great organizer. We do use 2 cans about that size. I wonder what the little containers are for....compost? I couldn't find it to get details. We would have plumbing in the sinkbase so I don't think I could use something like that there. We just use a freestanding rack that slides out.

lavender, that is another great idea but I think your first plan would work better for us since we would use the sink/dishwasher more than the stove, so it is beneficial to have them -- rather than the stove -- closer to the entrance to the room. We cannot recess a pantry in that wall. It consists of a load-bearing wall, a plumbing stack, and an asbestos-covered heat duct. It wouldn't be worth the expense.

Thanks again to everyone who is reading along and making suggestions! The polyurethane on the floor is drying and we will move a few of our old pieces back in temporarily later this week. I will try a few of the ideas everyone has generated.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I almost hate to comment without having read the whole thread (which I will when I have more time, it looks fascinating). But I am going to... your bungalow reminds me so much of my grandmother's...

Have you considered (or has it already been suggested) get a frig -only frig for the kitchen and get a separate freezer for the basement? Unless you are in the freezer constantly all day (like for ice in the summer). Maybe there are narrower all-frig units out there that would solve your dilemma about placement.

also, how badly do you need a built in dishwasher? Do you have room in your pantry to squirrel away a portable unit on wheels?
We had one that worked very well (years and years ago) with a butcher block top that served as additional work space when needed. The water lines hooked up to the faucet and it emptied into the sink. I don't know if they even make these anymore, though.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

They still make them, my parents have always used them. I find them a little annoying because you can't use the sink while the DW is hooked up, which makes the kitchen off limits when the DW is running. But they're better than nothing (I say anyway because I hate handwashing dishes).


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

raee, I had not looked at the tall refrigerator-only units. I just checked and they don't seem to be any narrower than units with freezers. It was a good thought though. The under counters are very pricey for the little space that you get. We do need a built-in dishwasher...that's what's driving this whole remodel. I used one of those portable dishwashers temporarily (bought from craigslist) during my last house kitchen remodel. Faced with having to drag a portable DW across the floor, I would probably just wash the dishes by hand. I don't really mind washing dishes, but I love having a dishwasher so I can hide the dirty dishes until I have time to get to them! :)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

thanks for giving your budget. i did a very small kitchen in my old house on a very tight budget, did much of the work myself, and in some ways i like what I had there better than my huge new build. it turned out looking like a jewel box.

I can describe my suggestion and maybe someone here has the ability to draw it.

starting in the breakfast area at the top right corner of the picture.

dead space to clear handles
30" wide fridge (close off this window)
cabinets to corner

round the corner:

cabinets
sink
18"dishwasher
(if in the budget consider a backsplash height transom window, or two windows at right angle in the corner)

problems here are that you lose a window, but relatively inexpensive patchwork on the siding. keeping the fridge in that back corner makes it so that someone can walk by when you are at the sink and get something out, it also allows a more open feel. this layout will maximize counter length in the prep area which later becomes a clean up zone. problem is that with the dishwasher open, it is difficult to pass by.

I would use the entire other section for the range, but would place the range as close to the dining area as possible, and do not have the counters come to an inside corner on that range wall because this will actually shorten the counter run and cause more congestion.

Try and get a couple of long counter runs out of this, I find that these are more useful than two short runs.

I will recommend against two sinks, more counters will make the place more functional.

You still have space for a fold down table next to the pantry.

there is certainly enough room here to make a very functional space, I am envious of the extra pantry storage.

This post was edited by detroit_burb on Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 22:34


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

FWIW, for those who can't fit LIebherr into the budget, Summit makes a 24" counter depth fridge. (not the best price here, just a fast link)

Here is a link that might be useful: summit fridge


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

bungalow house --

You have explained that a stack, HVAC ducts, and some asbestos preclude messing with the walls of the pantry, but I urge you to look really hard at fitting a refrigerator into the existing pantry, with the performance criteria being that you can get the door open. Even if you lose space in the pantry for anything but the fridge, the stuff that would have been stored in the pantry could go into whatever cabinets -- lower and upper -- are installed where where you the fridge is shown now.

If a 30" wide fridge would fit in the pantry, then you could go with a better-priced "counterdepth" fridge, e.g,, one that is 28 to 30 inchesl deep but thousands less than Liebherr or SubZero . The newly fridge-free 109" of cabinets would allow you to center the sink on the window if you like, put a full-size dishwasher on one side, the clever refuse "drawer" deedles suggested on the other and still have room for all drawer or door and drawer cabinet in the lower run. If it would make a difference, I also know households of four who live nicely with an 18" dishwasher. Anyway, you could have any combination of tall uppers and open shelving flanking the window that made you feel not too hemmed in.

* * *

I am thrilled by your OT question. In the four years I have been in this forum, no one else recognized the source of the unwieldy "honorbiltkit." The house is a 1923 Americus [read "world's cutest porch"] model I bought in 2009 and renovated.

It was harrowing but tremendous fun. And the giant looming refrigerator I had bought on craigslist because it was pristine ended up in a pantry that isn''t even directly off the kitchen but still only steps from the sink.

With my finances now somewhat restored, I have taken on another restoration, this one with a kitchen that is 19' by 7"8," so I am dealing with a set of issues not dissimilar to yours. After I had done my first layout, I mocked up a 36" aisle in the galley kitchen. It might have worked if things on opposite sides of the room weren't open at the same time, but it felt really confining, so it's back to the drawing board

So you can see why I will continue following your progress with particular interest. Cheers. hbk


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

detroit, I'm not sure I follow what you described. Is it basically switching the fridge and stove in this picture?

IMG_0607

I can't easily change windows on the sink wall -- that is 80 year old brick on the outside. I agree there is enough square footage in the room, it's just so awkwardly arranged for "today's kitchen".

I found this while looking for inspiration pictures. This is one of my favorite pictures ever.

Thanks for the link, writersblock! I go back and forth on those narrow fridges. $1500 for 10 cu. ft. or $500 for 18 cu. ft. A high cost to pay (in lost storage + cash) for the aesthetic.

honorbilt, I will definitely try a fridge in the pantry before making any final decisions. I am not confident though. The floor is finally dry so I got in there for measurements. The actual doorway to the pantry, with the existing trim in place, is only 29" wide, so anything that's put in there would have to be less than that to be able to get the doors open to 90 degrees. And the deeper the fridge, the more it impinges on the entrance to the kitchen from the dining room....

IMG_0647

I waffle on the refrigerator size but I am pretty confident that an 18" dishwasher will suffice. OT: that is one beautiful house! Love the garden too. We restored our last (a 1923 story + 1/2) in 2007 -- agree about harrowing and tremendous fun. My partner does not enjoy this anywhere near as much as I do! :) Good luck with your kitchen project!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Hey, if you removed the trim around that pantry doorway you'd gain enough for a 30 inch fridge. Gotta find one that has the right kind of hinges.... OR, this?

That is a great picture. Feels like the world made a lot more sense back then.

(I'm really sorry if you've explained 40 times why that part of the pantry wall can't be removed, but I can't remember reading that)

This post was edited by deedles on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 14:43


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Here is a link to the width-indexed array of refrigerators that would seem to fit in your pantry (please note that they have slimmer ones as well). I have never done business with AJ Madison, so I am not necessarily recommending them, but they do have an enormous array of appliances indexed in all the ways that are important in planning a small kitchen. Good luck

Here is a link that might be useful: Fridges between 26 and 26.9


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Here is a link to the width-indexed array of refrigerators that would seem to fit in your pantry (please note that they have slimmer ones as well). I have never done business with AJ Madison, so I am not necessarily recommending them, but they do have an enormous array of appliances indexed in all the ways that are important in planning a small kitchen. Good luck

Here is a link that might be useful: Fridges between 26 and 26.9


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

deedles, removing that wall was the original plan. Then we found the plumbing and hvac in it. :(

honorbilt, I will check out that site. Thank you.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Oh phooey. Darn plumbing and HVAC.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Bungalow- Oh, what a cute picture! Such a charming, vintage kitchen :)

I know you want more space, but have you considered something like that? Could you move the access to the pantry, to the dining room side?

From Kitchen plans


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

what I meant was this. use the small breakfast room where you currently have your range for the sink, dishwasher and fridge arranged in an L shape with cabinets between the fridge and sink. Place the fridge in the corner to the right of the current window where you now have a 14" wall. Close off that window and re-frame the opening to the left to accomodate a 30" fridge with room for the handles to clear. If possible, you can add another window at a right angle to get the corner window look that is in some bungalows and is really nice in a kitchen. Next to the fridge put a corner cabinet. On the wall you currently have your range, you can the sink and dishwasher.

3" dead space
30" fridge
37" corner cabinet with lazy susan
30" sink base (will accomodate trash & recycling with crafty plumbing below)
18" dishwasher
dishwasher end cover panel

This will give you a very functional L prep/clean up space leaving the other section of your kitchen for cooking, but try and place your range to the left of your bricked in window so that you have a nice counter run to the right which gives you more clean up and prep space.

if the budget is 7K you can do this entire kitchen including the window modification and a new fridge and dishwasher with IKEA, they have sizes that would work fine and can be played with to get what you want. Some patience with the moldings they have in stock can produce a much more expensive look.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I missed the above comment to open the pantry to the other side - interesting idea.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Way to think outside the box, Lav! How about that idea?


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

lavender, that IS a creative idea. I didn’t even consider that. Unfortunately the entrance from the foyer to the dining is around that corner, so moving the door would be kind of tight.

detroit, thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately I think the sink, dishwasher, AND fridge in that space would be too tight, and at this point I’m not interested in changing windows.

After giving it a lot of thought, I am at peace now with the sink NOT centered on that side window. It's the only way to make that run usable with everything that needs to go there.

I am also happy to report that the floor is dry and we made it into the kitchen last night with a cardboard mockup of the fridge and we have a breakthrough there. I do not like the fridge in the pantry. Trust me, it crowds that entrance to the room way too much. I also realized why I don’t like the fridge to the left of the entry: it feels like it’s lying in wait there ready to pounce on you when you walk into the room. We tried the fridge in the breakfast room, and BINGO. It does not block the rear window like I feared it would. If it’s a counter-depth, it’s even better. We will bring back the old pieces and move them around a bit to try out some different layouts but this is what I’m thinking about at the moment:

ikea1

ikea2

Here is the fridge mockup. This is about 33" deep. Counter depth looks even better.

IMG_0652[1]

Thank you to everyone who has stuck with me on this and the great suggestions and advice. I do appreciate it!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

bwaaaaa


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Are you waving goodbye, or can we still get in the soup line?
:-)


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I'm not going anywhere -- that's the big hairy fridge monster waiting to get you when you walk into the kitchen.

The soup line is still open, just watch your hands!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Well, I can see that you don't like the corner refrigerator location which is what my two layouts are based on, but thought I'd put them here anyway to see what you might think. I'd suggest thinking about the whole cooking and cleaning up process; in a kitchen this size and with your budget, compromises will need to be made, just make sure you are choosing the ones that you can live with.

 photo kitchen_zps7c2d967c.jpg

Both Options work with your existing footpoint, makes use of all the square footage that you have available and should be more budget friendly as well; the main difference is the sink location as well as the addition of seating in Option B.

A general design principal is that if you cannot center something then go way off so that it looks to be a deliberate choice. Thus in Option A, I did not try to center the sink in front of either window as it would result with small cabinets and chopped up counters. Instead I placed your sink at the join of the two areas such that it can be accessible from either side (and two people can even use it at the same time, one for prep and one for cleanup).This allows for a nice wide prep space between the refrigerator and sink. Choose a sink and faucet combination that is accessible from either side. I'd recommend a D-shaped sink with a left rear drain so that you can put the plumbing and disposal all to the left side of the cabinet and trash and recycling on the right. Have the faucet (single hole) in the upper left corner, again so you have that flexibility to prep in either direction. Option B allows for more counter space between the sink and range as well as a larger dishwasher. What both have in common is location the disposal and plumbing in that upper left corner which is not really accessable for storing anything.

Then for the cabinet run that continues after the 22" jog, I'd suggest building out the lowers 2" (using 2x4's behind standard 24" deep cabinets) which will give you 27" deep counters (unless you are going custom you can do whatever you wish). Put in a 30" range as you have the space and good to have more space for the pans.

For the microwave, you could do an OTR one, but a better location I think would be to put it in the pantry if you could put an electrical outlet there. That way you could use a real hood which provides better ventilation to the front as well as rear burners. With the range in this location, you have spice storage opposite and I'd suggest using the wall adjacent as a pot wall, both for visual balance and usefulness. If not that, then a plate wall or even place to store recipe books.

For budget as well as looks, I'd suggest not using any upper cabinets, just some open shelves. You should have plenty of storage with the lowers and pantry cabinets. It will make your space feel more open and spacious, other than the refrigerator. :(


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

It seems like the fridge in that location is still going to block a lot of light...but I can see you not wanting the big hairy monster, either :)

What is you move the fridge down to the other end of the window, with dishwasher next to it, then your main sink. You could have a lazy susan (access from other cabinet run) and overhead (on wall to dining room) you could have those glass uppers, you like in your vintage kitchen picture.

Across from the fridge (next to the pantry) you could have a free-standing piece, with drawers (for silverware, etc.) and more glass uppers for additional dish storage.

In the breakfast nook, you could have the range with another lazy susan and a prep sink. There would be upper cabinets on either side of the range hood and more drawers on the right of the range. Opposite, you could have an area to hang aprons, display plates, hang pictures...maybe with some nice trim to divide the wall in half or 2/3 of the way up. Just a few ideas...

From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 13:27


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Or with Option B, instead of a breakfast nook, you could make that into a window seat (with storage drawers below). I think I like that even better; make it into the destination it is meant to be.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thanks val and lavender. Once the floor has cured enough to move some cabinets and appliances around in there, we will try them. I'm still open to trying all the things that have been mentioned here with real-life models or cardboard stand-ins.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

While you wait
-- Val's

 photo apartment-sizeappliances1a.jpg

-- lavender's

 photo apartment-sizeappliances1b.jpg

 photo apartment-sizeappliances1c.jpg

Fridge would be the last thing I'd notice in both.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Great mockups sena01, though I think with lavender's you flipped the stove wall. What I like about both is they make use of the entire space. The cabinetry and rear window draw the eye away from the refrigerator. I agree once the cabinets, counters, etc. are all in place as well as the decor, the refrigerator will seem less imposing than when it's the only item there. I really like lavender's as well; just not sure the OP is up for added expense of a prep sink as her budget is pretty modest.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thank you sena! Those glass front cabinets are beautiful.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

I've been a silent observer tracking these wonderful suggestions coming your way. Please continue to keep us posted. I agree, the sink needs to be moved off center, rather than be centered under the window. Your main dilemma still seems to be the fridge placement. Functionaly, I like Val's layout the best, nice access to fridge, sink and then stove. However, agree that the fridge does block the window as one enters the room. Lavender's layout has the fridge in the corner to the right of the sink. However, I would hate walking around the fridge when working between the sink and stove. You would almost need a prep sink close to the stove. Have you thought of moving the back window to the right if the fridge were placed in the back room? Sometimes the solution is to spend a little extra money to achieve a much more functional layout. I finally became "unstuck" on my layout after deciding to spend $300 more to move my sink two feet to the right, away from a corner. That was the best $300 I've ever spent.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thanks, Texasgal. We moved the old cabinets and appliances around and I think we are settled on this layout. For lots of reasons that I will not bore everyone with, this seems to work the best. Our most frequently used dishes can reside on the small wall shelves, and all other dishes and food can go in the walk-in pantry. We'll try this for a few days just to make sure it works before ordering the 2 whole cabinets! :) I will just have to live with the fridge blocking that window. We will do more wall shelves over a worktable in the back, or maybe do more cabinets back there at a later date. I agree about finding something that unsticks the plan. In our case it was moving sink away from the window. Thanks to all who suggested that!!

IMG_0676-1


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Just to clarify, the fridge does not actually block the window, it is only from this angle that it blocks the view out of the window. This is the view from the entrance into the kitchen, which is why it bothered me.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Doesn't it feel good to have a plan!

Will you put a narrow cabinet to the left of the stove? In our tiny old townhouse, we put a 12"-wide elfa unit with butcher block top as the only counterspace by the stove. That 12" made such a difference: it held a spoonrest, a crock for utensils, hooks for potholders/towels, drawers for miscellany and spices.

A long worktable at the back will look so appropriate to the house, and when not used for meal prep will probably be a great spot for menu-planning and growing herbs, too! Perhaps you can find one with a shallow drawer.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thanks bpathome. Yes, I have my eyes peeled for something small to go to the left of the stove. Also have a spot reserved for an old Cosco chair/stepstool if I can find one. That is more like 1950s than 1930s, but they are oh so useful!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Too funny. Reminds of my merry-go-round of possible kitchen layouts... I went all around again and again only to arrive back nearly where I started with just a couple tweaks. Seriously, you've done in a few days what it took me a year to get to. Staying with what was there and moving a few cabinets around.

Glad you've found what works for now and the floors look nice!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Thanks, deedles. Every time I go to the sink now I am amazed at the difference moving it over 6 inches has made!


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Bungalow, I really think you've chosen the best layout for your situation. (Yeah!!!) The open shelves are a smart choice, too. They will really open up your small space and allow maximum natural light into the room. Your new space should be a real joy to work in. Ditto deedles' comments--the refininshed floors look great, and your stick-to-itness is an inspiration for procrastinators like me!
Check out the elfa adjustable basket system, at The Container Store, for your pantry door. Those hold a ton and are worth every penny. I use them on one pantry and two closet doors in my small house.


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Is this not the best website ever?! Even tho I haven't made any suggestions for you - not my forte - I've been keeping up w/ this thread to see what you end up doing. I also came on here for help w/ my layout & w/ all of the great suggestions, I have a plan that I'm finally thrilled w/ & will be starting to make come real, very soon. I am constantly amazed at all of the talented & gracious people that come here to help someone they don't even know! As they say, "It takes a village"!

Please keep us posted on how everything goes. Best of luck!

This post was edited by bicyclegirl on Sat, Nov 16, 13 at 23:30


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RE: apartment-size appliances/layout

Texasgal, yes the room definitely feels bigger with no wall cabinets and with all the stuff on one side of the room. Will check out The Container Store. This house about the same size as my last but for some reason it is more challenging organizationally. What I have found though is with some thoughtful strategies (for instance I have hanging shoe organizers on some closet doors to hold anything small that doesn't have a good home), it is very functional. It is a fun challenge.

Thanks, bicyclegirl. I thought about turning to a kitchen designer but I think this village is better because of the brainstorming that a multitude of creative been-there-done-that people can provide. Even if the original idea didn't change much, it was immensely helpful to work through alternatives to remove any lingering doubt that there is something I missed. Good luck with your project too!


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