:-(

You don't have to go custom to get your sizes in cabinets. Many semi-custom cabinet lines allow size changes. We have UltraCraft. You can change the size in height, width, depth, or all three in 1/16" increments at no extra charge.

Do a search for sinks not centered under windows. Our sink is not centered and I really never notice it.

OR, best case scenario, fridge works in pantry and sink can be centered! That's my best case anyway ;) Then regular or blind corner cab in that corner and rest is about the same.

PS what's the width of that arch? I realized the stove will have to come over for the hood to be centered over stove.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 12:17

angela, I will check on that. We are doing semi-custom, I think.

robot, I don't know what that dimension is, and the floor is being poly-ed at the moment so I won't be able to get in there for a few days. I'd guess it's 4-5"? That's the reason we had the stove in from the corner about 12". At the moment I'm not concerned about a hood. We don't cook a lot, and when we do it is rare that we use a fan since it is so loud, and I think light will be ok. I figure if I really need to exhaust something I can always open that window and stick an exhaust fan in it!

This post was edited by bungalow_house on Fri, Nov 8, 13 at 14:22

Two comments:

If you haven't done so, look into Liebherr refrigerators. The are genuinely counter depth but 80" tall, so they provide good cubic feet for their width. They are pricey, but I recall that various posters on this forum have gotten floor models or otherwise not-quite-perfect fridges for good discounts. Check ebay; their offerings change often.

Isn't the quality of thought and care and imagination that people in this forum devote to helping other people sort out challenges amazing? Plus everybody has a pretty good time.

Here is a link that might be useful: liebherr fridges on ebay today

You will end up with more usable counter and lower cabinet space if you eliminate the awkward "jut around" from the sink area to the cooking area. You will also eliminate the need for seams in your counter top material.

You may want to consider a 60 wide restaurant grade under the counter refrigerator, and put a 30" restaurant freezer, also counter height, in your pantry area. This are a bit deeper than standard, but can be worked into the sink area because of the jut around you have. You can get a fridge with glass doors. This will give you more counter space, and allow for more usable uppers. I don't think it will harm the resale, either, if you get a nice unit, though any time you are choosing non-standard 'premium' type items, a future buyer may be concerned about replacing it. The value of the home should dictate the amount you spend on this update.

What is your project budget?

honorbilt, 1) those Liebherr refrigerators are gorgeous. They would be budget-busters for me, unfortunately.

And 2), YES! I am amazed that people are following what's being discussed here. It makes my head hurt to read it and I am writing it. Though I have to say I'm starting to feel like the Seinfeld Soup Nazi -- everytime someone offers a helpful alternative, I slap them on the back of the hand with a soup ladle and say "NO SOUP FOR YOU!"....

(OT, do you have an Honor Bilt house? I don't think I've ever had a kit house, never saw any signs that they were kits. I have a couple of catalogs that I love to look at.)

detroit, we thought about an under the counter fridge too. In addition to the pantry, there is a space on the other side of the basement door that might be big enough for a small fridge or freezer. In the end we thought it might be too unconventional and harmful for resale value. This is an ultra tight budget...we have about $7k left for the sink wall. We are doing as much of the work as possible ourselves. We really want to try to stick with the budget because the house value is modest. If we want to do something with the stove area later, that option will still be open.

I apologize if this has been asked before but is it possible to move the doorway into the kitchen? If so then you could do more of true galley layout utulizing the pantry and putting counters on the adjacent 29" wall, perhaps even the refrigerator.

Throwing this idea out there for your sink trash,etc. If you have a 24" sink base, you could make one big drawer out of the whole cab like in this picture.

{{gwi:1973893}}

Also, I read through the whole thread (such a cute kitchen and there is a perfect layout... keep an open mind to all suggestions if they are structurally doable) and have to say the fridge in the pantry is really the only thing that seems to make sense. Maybe you'd have room next to it for a tall pull-out pantry cabinet, too?

And, I don't believe anyone mentioned a dishwasher drawer either (or I missed it). But then you'd be able to have a decent drawer underneath it and retain a little storage space.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Bungalow- I know you said there isn't room to recess the fridge by the pantry...is there room to recess a pantry, there? Could you put the fridge into the walk-in pantry and recess a shallow pantry next to it?

Clueless has a wonderful kitchen and it gave me an idea. What if you put the range on the end, as she has...and then a prep sink in the corner? You could move the clean up area back beyond the arch and keep you main work triangle closer to the dining room. This would give you upper dish storage and drawer storage. Would this work? {{gwi:1973894}}From Kitchen plans

I apologize if this has been asked before but is it possible to move the doorway into the kitchen? If so then you could do more of true galley layout utulizing the pantry and putting counters on the adjacent 29" wall, perhaps even the refrigerator.

val, yes, we considered moving the dining room door. Originally we were going to widen it when the plan was to remove the pantry and put the fridge in its place, making the kitchen mostly open to the dining room. Since we can't do that part, the moving or widening of the dining room door isn't very useful. We did try the stove in that 29" between the basement and pantry doors. It fits but then the kitchen felt very small. One thing we noticed about putting all the appliances on the other wall is how much bigger the kitchen felt that way. That's another reason I don't think the fridge in the pantry will work...I think it will feel needlessly cramped. I understand how utilizing the pantry side of the room looks good on paper, but in real life, it just doesn't feel right. I'm grateful that we are doing this ourselves and using our old stuff, shuffling around to test all these layouts!

deedles, that is a great organizer. We do use 2 cans about that size. I wonder what the little containers are for....compost? I couldn't find it to get details. We would have plumbing in the sinkbase so I don't think I could use something like that there. We just use a freestanding rack that slides out.

lavender, that is another great idea but I think your first plan would work better for us since we would use the sink/dishwasher more than the stove, so it is beneficial to have them -- rather than the stove -- closer to the entrance to the room. We cannot recess a pantry in that wall. It consists of a load-bearing wall, a plumbing stack, and an asbestos-covered heat duct. It wouldn't be worth the expense.

Thanks again to everyone who is reading along and making suggestions! The polyurethane on the floor is drying and we will move a few of our old pieces back in temporarily later this week. I will try a few of the ideas everyone has generated.

I almost hate to comment without having read the whole thread (which I will when I have more time, it looks fascinating). But I am going to... your bungalow reminds me so much of my grandmother's...

Have you considered (or has it already been suggested) get a frig -only frig for the kitchen and get a separate freezer for the basement? Unless you are in the freezer constantly all day (like for ice in the summer). Maybe there are narrower all-frig units out there that would solve your dilemma about placement.

also, how badly do you need a built in dishwasher? Do you have room in your pantry to squirrel away a portable unit on wheels?
We had one that worked very well (years and years ago) with a butcher block top that served as additional work space when needed. The water lines hooked up to the faucet and it emptied into the sink. I don't know if they even make these anymore, though.

They still make them, my parents have always used them. I find them a little annoying because you can't use the sink while the DW is hooked up, which makes the kitchen off limits when the DW is running. But they're better than nothing (I say anyway because I hate handwashing dishes).

raee, I had not looked at the tall refrigerator-only units. I just checked and they don't seem to be any narrower than units with freezers. It was a good thought though. The under counters are very pricey for the little space that you get. We do need a built-in dishwasher...that's what's driving this whole remodel. I used one of those portable dishwashers temporarily (bought from craigslist) during my last house kitchen remodel. Faced with having to drag a portable DW across the floor, I would probably just wash the dishes by hand. I don't really mind washing dishes, but I love having a dishwasher so I can hide the dirty dishes until I have time to get to them! :)

thanks for giving your budget. i did a very small kitchen in my old house on a very tight budget, did much of the work myself, and in some ways i like what I had there better than my huge new build. it turned out looking like a jewel box.

I can describe my suggestion and maybe someone here has the ability to draw it.

starting in the breakfast area at the top right corner of the picture.

dead space to clear handles
30" wide fridge (close off this window)
cabinets to corner

round the corner:

cabinets
sink
18"dishwasher
(if in the budget consider a backsplash height transom window, or two windows at right angle in the corner)

problems here are that you lose a window, but relatively inexpensive patchwork on the siding. keeping the fridge in that back corner makes it so that someone can walk by when you are at the sink and get something out, it also allows a more open feel. this layout will maximize counter length in the prep area which later becomes a clean up zone. problem is that with the dishwasher open, it is difficult to pass by.

I would use the entire other section for the range, but would place the range as close to the dining area as possible, and do not have the counters come to an inside corner on that range wall because this will actually shorten the counter run and cause more congestion.

Try and get a couple of long counter runs out of this, I find that these are more useful than two short runs.

I will recommend against two sinks, more counters will make the place more functional.

You still have space for a fold down table next to the pantry.

there is certainly enough room here to make a very functional space, I am envious of the extra pantry storage.

This post was edited by detroit_burb on Sun, Nov 10, 13 at 22:34

FWIW, for those who can't fit LIebherr into the budget, Summit makes a 24" counter depth fridge. (not the best price here, just a fast link)

Here is a link that might be useful: summit fridge

bungalow house --

You have explained that a stack, HVAC ducts, and some asbestos preclude messing with the walls of the pantry, but I urge you to look really hard at fitting a refrigerator into the existing pantry, with the performance criteria being that you can get the door open. Even if you lose space in the pantry for anything but the fridge, the stuff that would have been stored in the pantry could go into whatever cabinets -- lower and upper -- are installed where where you the fridge is shown now.

If a 30" wide fridge would fit in the pantry, then you could go with a better-priced "counterdepth" fridge, e.g,, one that is 28 to 30 inchesl deep but thousands less than Liebherr or SubZero . The newly fridge-free 109" of cabinets would allow you to center the sink on the window if you like, put a full-size dishwasher on one side, the clever refuse "drawer" deedles suggested on the other and still have room for all drawer or door and drawer cabinet in the lower run. If it would make a difference, I also know households of four who live nicely with an 18" dishwasher. Anyway, you could have any combination of tall uppers and open shelving flanking the window that made you feel not too hemmed in.

* * *

I am thrilled by your OT question. In the four years I have been in this forum, no one else recognized the source of the unwieldy "honorbiltkit." The house is a 1923 Americus [read "world's cutest porch"] model I bought in 2009 and renovated.

It was harrowing but tremendous fun. And the giant looming refrigerator I had bought on craigslist because it was pristine ended up in a pantry that isn''t even directly off the kitchen but still only steps from the sink.

With my finances now somewhat restored, I have taken on another restoration, this one with a kitchen that is 19' by 7"8," so I am dealing with a set of issues not dissimilar to yours. After I had done my first layout, I mocked up a 36" aisle in the galley kitchen. It might have worked if things on opposite sides of the room weren't open at the same time, but it felt really confining, so it's back to the drawing board

So you can see why I will continue following your progress with particular interest. Cheers. hbk

detroit, I'm not sure I follow what you described. Is it basically switching the fridge and stove in this picture?

I can't easily change windows on the sink wall -- that is 80 year old brick on the outside. I agree there is enough square footage in the room, it's just so awkwardly arranged for "today's kitchen".

I found this while looking for inspiration pictures. This is one of my favorite pictures ever.

Thanks for the link, writersblock! I go back and forth on those narrow fridges. $1500 for 10 cu. ft. or $500 for 18 cu. ft. A high cost to pay (in lost storage + cash) for the aesthetic.

honorbilt, I will definitely try a fridge in the pantry before making any final decisions. I am not confident though. The floor is finally dry so I got in there for measurements. The actual doorway to the pantry, with the existing trim in place, is only 29" wide, so anything that's put in there would have to be less than that to be able to get the doors open to 90 degrees. And the deeper the fridge, the more it impinges on the entrance to the kitchen from the dining room....

I waffle on the refrigerator size but I am pretty confident that an 18" dishwasher will suffice. OT: that is one beautiful house! Love the garden too. We restored our last (a 1923 story + 1/2) in 2007 -- agree about harrowing and tremendous fun. My partner does not enjoy this anywhere near as much as I do! :) Good luck with your kitchen project!

Hey, if you removed the trim around that pantry doorway you'd gain enough for a 30 inch fridge. Gotta find one that has the right kind of hinges.... OR, this?

That is a great picture. Feels like the world made a lot more sense back then.

(I'm really sorry if you've explained 40 times why that part of the pantry wall can't be removed, but I can't remember reading that)

This post was edited by deedles on Mon, Nov 11, 13 at 14:43

Here is a link to the width-indexed array of refrigerators that would seem to fit in your pantry (please note that they have slimmer ones as well). I have never done business with AJ Madison, so I am not necessarily recommending them, but they do have an enormous array of appliances indexed in all the ways that are important in planning a small kitchen. Good luck

Here is a link that might be useful: Fridges between 26 and 26.9

Here is a link to the width-indexed array of refrigerators that would seem to fit in your pantry (please note that they have slimmer ones as well). I have never done business with AJ Madison, so I am not necessarily recommending them, but they do have an enormous array of appliances indexed in all the ways that are important in planning a small kitchen. Good luck

Here is a link that might be useful: Fridges between 26 and 26.9

deedles, removing that wall was the original plan. Then we found the plumbing and hvac in it. :(

honorbilt, I will check out that site. Thank you.

Oh phooey. Darn plumbing and HVAC.

Bungalow- Oh, what a cute picture! Such a charming, vintage kitchen :)

I know you want more space, but have you considered something like that? Could you move the access to the pantry, to the dining room side? {{gwi:1973898}}From Kitchen plans

what I meant was this. use the small breakfast room where you currently have your range for the sink, dishwasher and fridge arranged in an L shape with cabinets between the fridge and sink. Place the fridge in the corner to the right of the current window where you now have a 14" wall. Close off that window and re-frame the opening to the left to accomodate a 30" fridge with room for the handles to clear. If possible, you can add another window at a right angle to get the corner window look that is in some bungalows and is really nice in a kitchen. Next to the fridge put a corner cabinet. On the wall you currently have your range, you can the sink and dishwasher.

3" dead space
30" fridge
37" corner cabinet with lazy susan
30" sink base (will accomodate trash & recycling with crafty plumbing below)
18" dishwasher
dishwasher end cover panel

This will give you a very functional L prep/clean up space leaving the other section of your kitchen for cooking, but try and place your range to the left of your bricked in window so that you have a nice counter run to the right which gives you more clean up and prep space.

if the budget is 7K you can do this entire kitchen including the window modification and a new fridge and dishwasher with IKEA, they have sizes that would work fine and can be played with to get what you want. Some patience with the moldings they have in stock can produce a much more expensive look.

I missed the above comment to open the pantry to the other side - interesting idea.

Way to think outside the box, Lav! How about that idea?

lavender, that IS a creative idea. I didn’t even consider that. Unfortunately the entrance from the foyer to the dining is around that corner, so moving the door would be kind of tight.

detroit, thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately I think the sink, dishwasher, AND fridge in that space would be too tight, and at this point I’m not interested in changing windows.

After giving it a lot of thought, I am at peace now with the sink NOT centered on that side window. It's the only way to make that run usable with everything that needs to go there.

I am also happy to report that the floor is dry and we made it into the kitchen last night with a cardboard mockup of the fridge and we have a breakthrough there. I do not like the fridge in the pantry. Trust me, it crowds that entrance to the room way too much. I also realized why I don’t like the fridge to the left of the entry: it feels like it’s lying in wait there ready to pounce on you when you walk into the room. We tried the fridge in the breakfast room, and BINGO. It does not block the rear window like I feared it would. If it’s a counter-depth, it’s even better. We will bring back the old pieces and move them around a bit to try out some different layouts but this is what I’m thinking about at the moment:

Here is the fridge mockup. This is about 33" deep. Counter depth looks even better.

Thank you to everyone who has stuck with me on this and the great suggestions and advice. I do appreciate it!

Are you waving goodbye, or can we still get in the soup line?
:-)

I'm not going anywhere -- that's the big hairy fridge monster waiting to get you when you walk into the kitchen.

The soup line is still open, just watch your hands!

Well, I can see that you don't like the corner refrigerator location which is what my two layouts are based on, but thought I'd put them here anyway to see what you might think. I'd suggest thinking about the whole cooking and cleaning up process; in a kitchen this size and with your budget, compromises will need to be made, just make sure you are choosing the ones that you can live with.

Both Options work with your existing footpoint, makes use of all the square footage that you have available and should be more budget friendly as well; the main difference is the sink location as well as the addition of seating in Option B.

A general design principal is that if you cannot center something then go way off so that it looks to be a deliberate choice. Thus in Option A, I did not try to center the sink in front of either window as it would result with small cabinets and chopped up counters. Instead I placed your sink at the join of the two areas such that it can be accessible from either side (and two people can even use it at the same time, one for prep and one for cleanup).This allows for a nice wide prep space between the refrigerator and sink. Choose a sink and faucet combination that is accessible from either side. I'd recommend a D-shaped sink with a left rear drain so that you can put the plumbing and disposal all to the left side of the cabinet and trash and recycling on the right. Have the faucet (single hole) in the upper left corner, again so you have that flexibility to prep in either direction. Option B allows for more counter space between the sink and range as well as a larger dishwasher. What both have in common is location the disposal and plumbing in that upper left corner which is not really accessable for storing anything.

Then for the cabinet run that continues after the 22" jog, I'd suggest building out the lowers 2" (using 2x4's behind standard 24" deep cabinets) which will give you 27" deep counters (unless you are going custom you can do whatever you wish). Put in a 30" range as you have the space and good to have more space for the pans.

For the microwave, you could do an OTR one, but a better location I think would be to put it in the pantry if you could put an electrical outlet there. That way you could use a real hood which provides better ventilation to the front as well as rear burners. With the range in this location, you have spice storage opposite and I'd suggest using the wall adjacent as a pot wall, both for visual balance and usefulness. If not that, then a plate wall or even place to store recipe books.

For budget as well as looks, I'd suggest not using any upper cabinets, just some open shelves. You should have plenty of storage with the lowers and pantry cabinets. It will make your space feel more open and spacious, other than the refrigerator. :(

It seems like the fridge in that location is still going to block a lot of light...but I can see you not wanting the big hairy monster, either :)

What is you move the fridge down to the other end of the window, with dishwasher next to it, then your main sink. You could have a lazy susan (access from other cabinet run) and overhead (on wall to dining room) you could have those glass uppers, you like in your vintage kitchen picture.

Across from the fridge (next to the pantry) you could have a free-standing piece, with drawers (for silverware, etc.) and more glass uppers for additional dish storage.

In the breakfast nook, you could have the range with another lazy susan and a prep sink. There would be upper cabinets on either side of the range hood and more drawers on the right of the range. Opposite, you could have an area to hang aprons, display plates, hang pictures...maybe with some nice trim to divide the wall in half or 2/3 of the way up. Just a few ideas... {{gwi:1973904}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Tue, Nov 12, 13 at 13:27

Or with Option B, instead of a breakfast nook, you could make that into a window seat (with storage drawers below). I think I like that even better; make it into the destination it is meant to be.

Thanks val and lavender. Once the floor has cured enough to move some cabinets and appliances around in there, we will try them. I'm still open to trying all the things that have been mentioned here with real-life models or cardboard stand-ins.

While you wait
-- Val's

-- lavender's

Fridge would be the last thing I'd notice in both.

Great mockups sena01, though I think with lavender's you flipped the stove wall. What I like about both is they make use of the entire space. The cabinetry and rear window draw the eye away from the refrigerator. I agree once the cabinets, counters, etc. are all in place as well as the decor, the refrigerator will seem less imposing than when it's the only item there. I really like lavender's as well; just not sure the OP is up for added expense of a prep sink as her budget is pretty modest.

Thank you sena! Those glass front cabinets are beautiful.

I've been a silent observer tracking these wonderful suggestions coming your way. Please continue to keep us posted. I agree, the sink needs to be moved off center, rather than be centered under the window. Your main dilemma still seems to be the fridge placement. Functionaly, I like Val's layout the best, nice access to fridge, sink and then stove. However, agree that the fridge does block the window as one enters the room. Lavender's layout has the fridge in the corner to the right of the sink. However, I would hate walking around the fridge when working between the sink and stove. You would almost need a prep sink close to the stove. Have you thought of moving the back window to the right if the fridge were placed in the back room? Sometimes the solution is to spend a little extra money to achieve a much more functional layout. I finally became "unstuck" on my layout after deciding to spend $300 more to move my sink two feet to the right, away from a corner. That was the best $300 I've ever spent.

Thanks, Texasgal. We moved the old cabinets and appliances around and I think we are settled on this layout. For lots of reasons that I will not bore everyone with, this seems to work the best. Our most frequently used dishes can reside on the small wall shelves, and all other dishes and food can go in the walk-in pantry. We'll try this for a few days just to make sure it works before ordering the 2 whole cabinets! :) I will just have to live with the fridge blocking that window. We will do more wall shelves over a worktable in the back, or maybe do more cabinets back there at a later date. I agree about finding something that unsticks the plan. In our case it was moving sink away from the window. Thanks to all who suggested that!!

Just to clarify, the fridge does not actually block the window, it is only from this angle that it blocks the view out of the window. This is the view from the entrance into the kitchen, which is why it bothered me.

Doesn't it feel good to have a plan!

Will you put a narrow cabinet to the left of the stove? In our tiny old townhouse, we put a 12"-wide elfa unit with butcher block top as the only counterspace by the stove. That 12" made such a difference: it held a spoonrest, a crock for utensils, hooks for potholders/towels, drawers for miscellany and spices.

A long worktable at the back will look so appropriate to the house, and when not used for meal prep will probably be a great spot for menu-planning and growing herbs, too! Perhaps you can find one with a shallow drawer.

Thanks bpathome. Yes, I have my eyes peeled for something small to go to the left of the stove. Also have a spot reserved for an old Cosco chair/stepstool if I can find one. That is more like 1950s than 1930s, but they are oh so useful!

Too funny. Reminds of my merry-go-round of possible kitchen layouts... I went all around again and again only to arrive back nearly where I started with just a couple tweaks. Seriously, you've done in a few days what it took me a year to get to. Staying with what was there and moving a few cabinets around.

Glad you've found what works for now and the floors look nice!

Thanks, deedles. Every time I go to the sink now I am amazed at the difference moving it over 6 inches has made!

Bungalow, I really think you've chosen the best layout for your situation. (Yeah!!!) The open shelves are a smart choice, too. They will really open up your small space and allow maximum natural light into the room. Your new space should be a real joy to work in. Ditto deedles' comments--the refininshed floors look great, and your stick-to-itness is an inspiration for procrastinators like me!
Check out the elfa adjustable basket system, at The Container Store, for your pantry door. Those hold a ton and are worth every penny. I use them on one pantry and two closet doors in my small house.

Is this not the best website ever?! Even tho I haven't made any suggestions for you - not my forte - I've been keeping up w/ this thread to see what you end up doing. I also came on here for help w/ my layout & w/ all of the great suggestions, I have a plan that I'm finally thrilled w/ & will be starting to make come real, very soon. I am constantly amazed at all of the talented & gracious people that come here to help someone they don't even know! As they say, "It takes a village"!

Please keep us posted on how everything goes. Best of luck!

This post was edited by bicyclegirl on Sat, Nov 16, 13 at 23:30

Texasgal, yes the room definitely feels bigger with no wall cabinets and with all the stuff on one side of the room. Will check out The Container Store. This house about the same size as my last but for some reason it is more challenging organizationally. What I have found though is with some thoughtful strategies (for instance I have hanging shoe organizers on some closet doors to hold anything small that doesn't have a good home), it is very functional. It is a fun challenge.

Thanks, bicyclegirl. I thought about turning to a kitchen designer but I think this village is better because of the brainstorming that a multitude of creative been-there-done-that people can provide. Even if the original idea didn't change much, it was immensely helpful to work through alternatives to remove any lingering doubt that there is something I missed. Good luck with your project too!