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carriebor

Layout, continued

Carrie B
9 years ago

I thought I'd kind of start fresh, though I was around a good deal last winter seeking input, and have been around again the last few weeks.

Last winter, after realizing that just about every kitchen component needed replacing, I decided that a gut/remodel was in order. I've attached a link to one of the discussions from back then - after an early meeting with the KD.

Here are some basic facts about me & the way I use my space:

-live alone, 49, don't cook to speak of.

-Intend to live in my home (probably alone) for the next 20 years. (resale not so important)

-Garden is important to me; both access & views.

-I hardly use the cooktop/range. I do use the fridge, coffee maker, sink, microwave frequently.

-Other than basic updating, two things I'd really like that I don't have now: (1) view out from the sink (preferably outside, but into living room OK) and (2) View of garden from table.

-I'm trying to keep the budget down - nothing high end, perhaps IKEA cabinets (though I'm not a DIY'er) & I understand that if adding/moving windows/doors, budget will be impacted.

I'm attaching photos of current space - first floor is living room, dining area & kitchen. Will post follow ups w/ specific questions in near future.

View from front door (nw corner of house)

View from ne corner (front window-ish)

View from back door (sw)

View from back window (se)

And here's the most recent layout from the KD - I know the spaces are tight, and that this layout involves some majorish structural changes - sealing up existing door, adding a new door, adding a new window. So, not perfect - but give my house and my quirks, it may be as perfect as it's gonna get. The structural changes may push my budget out of range, too.

Here is a link that might be useful: Layout discussion from February

Comments (70)

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Clueless, this is the same thing I was thinking.

    It's also possible to turn the sink run against the wall.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Funny, clueless & marcolo.

    That last design looked familiar, so I went back to look at the KD's initial layouts, and one is very similar, though she was trying to talk me into installing a powder room in my already tiny kitchen.

    And while I understand that that back corner is "only three steps away" from my existing door, it does let out to the very back corner wall of my yard - and I just don't like the feel of that. If I'm going to be living in this house for 20 years, and my primary hobby AND the way I earn a living is in the garden, I don't want the only way to get to it to be the farthest away.

  • lyfia
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well consider it an exterior hallway vs. Having an interior one. Very toy could come up worth something cool garden worse to make it a nice feature too. Assuming you can't get a permit.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lyfia: "very toy?"

    I'd rather leave the door where it is than move it even farther away from the garden. T

    I know that most of you on this forum won't understand that the garden is more important to me than the kitchen... I'm quirky that way - I'll admit it.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You don't use your kitchen, you don't care about it and you don't care if the layout is inefficient or dangerous. So why are you spending $30,000+ to remodel it? Just replace what's broken with Ikea and be done with it. Your side door isn't happening anyway unless you combine the parcels. Do you want to spend $30, $35, or $40 grand, look at your finished kitchen and say, "Huh. That was a waste?"

  • practigal
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Listen to marcolo. Save the money on the kitchen...spend it on great new trees in the garden, raised beds, a new irrigation system, or a spectacular privacy hedge or fence...Ikea's new kitchen line comes out in February, buy that because you'll be able to easily expand it or change it over time...this way you can spend some serious money energy effficient upgrades that will make your house comfortable, new flooring and your garden. And no hassles with the city, permits, contractors, etc...it could all be pretty much painlessly done within a week or two.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I never said I don't use my kitchen.
    I never said I don't care about my kitchen.
    I don't believe the layout is inefficient or dangerous knowing the way I use it, and I'm the only one who uses it and will use it for the next twenty years.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Practigal - the kitchen needs updating, if nothing else. The tiles are coming out of the floor, the metal on the stove is rotting out... The cabinet drawers are coming off the hinges.

    Of course, I love the idea of spending $ on the garden - and I do that. But the garden, including patio, is about 500 sf. No room for any more trees, and certainly no privacy hedge!

  • cluelessincolorado
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    But I can't get it to work any other way if the door to the lot isn't permitted, pun intended ;)

    I hear you. Small AND quirky can be annoying as well as wonderful. Know that we are trying to help, just feeling stymied. I had a design with the door on the side, but trashed it partly because I could imagine how annoyed I'd be if people were in and out through my work area. That doesn't seem to be an issue for you! Do you wish that you didn't have to veer around the peninsula in your current set up to get to the back door? I guess I was thinking that if you could get a straighter path to the back if the lot side option is out...

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have been rolling your kitchen around in my head, and here is a suggestion:

    I wanted to make your walkways less tight and give you a better dining area -- more neatly defined and where you could actually have more than one other person sitting. Unfortunately, my plan doesn't do anything about lessening structural changes or potential issues with permits, but c'est la vie. You are adding french doors, bricking up a window, and shifting another window here.

    I don't know how wide the existing basement stairs are, but I assumed 30". I also didn't know how big of a fridge you wanted -- you had mentioned you use it often. The basement stairs, fridge, and pantry could be adjusted, fro how I put them. I bumped out the walls around the upstairs stairs by 3" so you could have a pantry too, but if you lose the pantry, you could have either a wider basement stairs door or a wider fridge. Whatever you like.

    In this plan, you have a standard-size sink, but apartment-sized fridge, dishwasher, and cooktop. (I figured the sink would be handy for gardening stuff too, so I wanted to make sure it was roomy.) The 12" two-burner cooktop is centered over a 24" under counter convection microwave. This, your version of a range, would be your only visible appliance unless you are in the kitchen. (You had mentioned not liking the look of appliances -- I totally agree.)

    You have 48" of uninterrupted counter to the left of the cooktop (your primary prep zone), and 33" of counter to the right, which is wide enough to be a work zone too. These stretches of counter are an improvement over your KD's design. Generally less than 30" of counter functions more as a landing zone than a work space -- the KD has given you one roughly 36" work space and three landing zones.

    Similarly improved is the roominess of your walkways. They range from roughly 4' to roughly 5' everywhere now. This will go a long way to making your kitchen and dining pleasant to be in -- they will feel airy and open.

    You also now have more/better storage -- with the wider stretches of counter comes wider drawers (more useful). And you have more uppers and a pantry.

    I just realized you also have no corner cabinets in this plan, so huzzah for that!

    Because the kitchen is now all contained on the back wall, you have room for a larger table. I envision having two chairs on either end everyday, but a third can be added on the side closest to the pantry/stairs without cramping anything, and then if you pull the table out from the wall and add a bench against the wall, you can seat a fourth person with a bit of squishing.

    I extended the 4" bump-out so the table could be flat against the wall. To define the dining "room," the extended bump-out and the table should be centered on the pantry/stairs monolith, and I would paint or wallpaper the bump-out a contrasting color and center a light fixture over the table and hang a big mirror or piece on the bump-out, centered over the table.

    This post was edited by Jillius on Tue, Nov 25, 14 at 13:20

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Jilius!

    Your design seems very functional, and workable. I'm constantly surprised by people's generosity & hard work on my behalf here!

    Besides the general falling apart (working, but look really trashy - so yes, aesthetics) of my existing kitchen, there are two things that I really don't like about it. In a perfect word, I'd get both - but I understand that the world isn't perfect, budget isn't endless, and space is tight & odd with (now) permitting issues.

    The function of the existing kitchen has worked just fine for my uses. It's never bothered me or been a problem - so much as I can tell after being here fifteen years.

    So, the two "wish list" items were:
    -I want to be able to look out at the garden while I eat my breakfast
    -I'd like to not look at a wall at the sink - prefer the garden, on peninsula is a second choice.

    So, without structural changes (I'm pretty sure) getting both of those things is impossible. Even getting one of them could be pretty tough.

    So, I'm also feeling kind of stymied, and know that a compromise is what I'll get, which is OK and what I expected.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I really wanted to do was give you a large window centered over the table where I placed it.

    Like this:

    When you are installing the French doors, they and that window, being right next to each other, could go under the same header, which would save you some labor costs. But those pipes in the bump out! They make it hard to put anything flat against the wall, you can't center a window over where a table makes the most sense, etc. I wish plumbing weren't so expensive -- I would move those pipes in a heartbeat, but with all the structural changes, that added plumbing expense would surely bust the budget.

    My thought was that, instead of moving the plumbing bump-out (expense) or adding a randomly placed window to the side of it (creating architectural weirdness inside and out), the French doors where I put them would make the side garden so much more of a presence in the room, so you'll be able to see and appreciate it more as you use the kitchen in addition to having better access to the side yard and patio. I'd make the French doors the same height as your existing kitchen window, and there'd be nothing in front if them, so you'd have what is, in essense a humongous, unobstructed window showcasing the side garden there. Roughly, what, 5 feet wide by 8 feet tall?

    And if you add a third chair to the table now and angle it slightly so it is facing a bit to the left, that chair can look out the garden through the French doors while you eat breakfast. The French doors also sort of balance the bay window on the other side of the wall -- makes the doors seem like a natural architectural addition to the space.

    Also, the window over the sink also doesn't technically have to move, so the structural changes could be limited to the French doors. The window is not now centered where the sink is in my drawing, but the current location of the window does overlap the sink where I put it, so you could absolutely look out of the window while doing dishes. The window needs to be shortened so cabinets can run under it, but you needn't reframe the header to get the function you want (being able to look out the window) if you can stand that the sink would not be centered on the window. (That would make some people twitchy, but it would save you money.)

    Two more ideas about the issue of permitting:

    1) If the inspectors do say doors/windows on the side wall are against code, you could request a variance based on the the very reasonable argument that there is no way your neighbor would object since you are your own neighbor. At the city hall meeting about the variance where neighbors are invited to voice concerns, who is going to raise objections? You?

    2) If that doesn't work, perhaps you could legally add only ten feet or so of the empty lot property to the house property. Enough to make inspectors happy about your new window/door in the side wall, but not so much that your taxes get enormously increased.

    Lastly, instead of extending the bump-out to make the wall where the table is flat, you could just notch the table top to fit neatly around the bumpout. It would only affect the least-used side of table, and I'd hate to make that whole stretch more narrow by 4 inches given how narrow the room is already. So, notched, that table would be 34" deep everywhere but the bump out, where it would be 30" deep.

  • Hydragea
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Should a layout have staying power beyond the current owner?
    If so, I think you need a real oven, a small dishwasher, and a 4-burner cooktop.

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You and my mom (LOL!) I totally understand the need for garden views and access.

    From Kitchen plans

    If you put a small prep sink in the corner (just enough to wash veggies or rinse hands) you should be fine with the pathway through the kitchen. The main sink (even a small DW down the road) will be on the peninsula but not the only sink for prep.

    From Kitchen ideas

    You could have a small table at a 90 degree angle to the peninsula and add a few chairs for dining. This gives you three windows (one on each side of range) and one by the table.

    I know you say you don't use the range much...but with a garden you may decide to cook beans or make a soup. Even fresh herbs in an omelet. Having a well-designed (albeit small) kitchen will let you enjoy both spaces so much more!

    Have fun with the garden...and the kitchen :)

    Edited to add a few more details to plan, like plate rack over prep sink, possible dishwasher and cookbooks stored on shelves under left side of island.

    This post was edited by lavender_lass on Tue, Nov 25, 14 at 16:15

  • Oaktown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like lavender's plan minus the prep sink (I think the kitchen is too small for one).

    Or similar, what carrieb posted on the older thread Mon, Feb 10, 14 at 17:11 but no door on the pantry closet.

    I know someone in a rowhouse with a kitchen that is the same setup (including basement door placement) except the exterior access is where marcolo and clueless have it. That person has a backyard rather than a side yard, though. I can see why carrieb would prefer access to the actual yard rather than a narrow alley. With really small spaces I think you have to just pick your poison and go with it.

    Good luck!

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It is a small kitchen, but many small kitchens have a double sink. This one just has those sinks separated into more convenient locations :)

    I have my sink across from the range...and I don't care for it. Even without traffic, it still means drip, drip, drip when I wash veggies, chop and then put them into pot.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The prep sink is what saves the layout in LL's version.

  • Oaktown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I also dislike sinks across from ranges. But it seems that LOTS of folks do like them (see all the GW kitchens with prep sinks on islands). I guess I don't see what the difference is here?

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you again so much, everyone! I have a lot of thinking & research to do. I've got a phone call scheduled this morning w/ one GC company to review an estimate, and I've got another visit scheduled for this afternoon.

    Perhaps I'll post after that with an update. I don't think it makes any sense for me to do anything until I know what I can do when it comes to permitting. If nothing else, I'll want a window on that west wall, and if I can't even do that, well, a much modified project it will be.

    As far as the prep sink goes - well, tiny kitchen, and I don't cook much, so I think it would not serve me well (my garden is ornamental, minus maybe one tomato plant & one basil plant in pots) and given that most of what I do with a range is boil water for tea, having it across from the sink would not impact me much.

  • Hydragea
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A prep sink in a kitchen this size?

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just got a call back from the contractor I really liked (with excellent Angie's List reviews.) He's the GC that said my KD's design was the "best possible use of this space."

    The estimate for labor (including structural changes - sealing up existing door, putting in new door & new window) and includes the cost of the new open view door, w/ screen & casement window is $18,200.

    Now, if we go with that, there's the permitting issue that will have to get resolved. Plus, he does not work w/ IKEA, so I'll have to take my plan around (they're going to give me their vendor list, too) and see what kind of value I can get for cabinetry.

    I'm feeling much better this morning...

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good! I'm glad things are working out so well :)

    You don't need a prep sink, unless you think the traffic will get in your way. If you're the only one going out to the garden, then no one else will be cutting through your work area. Then the sink on the peninsula will work fine.

    If you ever end up with more people in the house...a prep sink could be added later. Along with the dishwasher, they would be easy additions that may or may not be needed in the future.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lavendar_lass - there's an 18" DW in my KD's plan. I don't have one now, and don't miss it, but if sink is on the peninsula, then dishes sitting out will be a mess in plain view - now the mess is (at least) on the back wall.

    I do have guests around fairly often, but we don't all cook at the same time and the passageways won't be any trickier than they are now.

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What do you have in your garden? Mainly flowers? Any roses? They're my weakness (LOL) but I only started gardening a few years ago. My mom has always gardened, but she just recently got interested in roses :)

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lavendar_lass - I do have a couple of roses ('Chuckles' & Virginiana) in my garden, though I don't think they're visible in this photo.
    The view, looking back (south) from the bay window:

    So, I met yesterday with a friendly acquaintance who does home renovations - a designer who buys houses, guts & renovates (is that the definition of "flipping"?) for investment.

    He thinks he can come up with a better layout - one that doesn't involve moving the door (but would involve a big new window on the west wall,) would come in a good deal under budget and would suit my needs. He said he'd get back to me in under a week.

    This post was edited by carrieb on Thu, Nov 27, 14 at 6:31

  • lavender_lass
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's wonderful!

    Here's another idea. After your last post, I thought I'd try sink and small dishwasher under a much bigger window! Kept two doors (you like lots of access to the garden, right?) and a small cooktop (maybe with under counter oven) on the peninsula.

    If you really want the cooktop to disappear, think about black glass electric burners with a black granite or faux granite/Formica counter on the peninsula with a 4"- 6" backsplash. That will help hide any clutter, but keep the spaces open to each other.

    Maybe white, yellow or even green cabinets with a faux marble or quartz countertop for the sink and fridge/microwave areas? It would be fun to play up the garden theme, if that's something you'd like to do :)

    My mom has light wood cabinets, a dark counter (faux granite) and soft, leaf green walls with a light floor. She loves her garden kitchen...and it works great with all of her holiday decorations! LOL

    From Kitchen plans

    Edited to add plate rack between garden door and window. I love plate racks!

    From Kitchen ideas

    This post was edited by lavender_lass on Thu, Nov 27, 14 at 15:23

  • Mags438
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That's great news Carrie! He can prolly provide you with most of the resources you would need. Perfect!

  • sena01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    2 layouts, door stays the same and a big window next to it (size depends on the size of the pantyr cab next to the fridge). Also I moved the basement door to the other side.

    This one has pantry, fridge DW and sink on one wall, MW (in base cab) and 2 burner on the other wall. Shallow pantry cab where the basement door was.

    The 2nd one, you probably won't like, because the sink is facing the wall, but with a DW, it's likely that you'll spend less time in front of the sink, and you have the table in front of the window.

    The MW cab is something likethe oven in the below picture, but it can be a full height cab too.

    Oh, the last cab on the sink wall is in front of the bump, so shallower than others.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lavender_lass - thank you! I like the idea of a big window in back. As a matter of fact - let's make it bigger! I don't really need two doors back there, so perhaps we can just extend the opening to make one big window on that back wall. I do like the pretty plate rack - though my housekeeping skills, combined with two cats and urban dust would probably rule that out in practical terms. I really like the bookshelf you have built in - as I currently have a little bookshelf w/ cookbooks & garden books where the new, west window is planned.

    Sena! Amazing you back at my service. Thank you so much! I'm still & constantly so impressed with your ability to get these layouts so clearly understandable! So, in your first layout, sink looks out a back window, and table is not in front of a window, and second layout, table is in front of window, but sink is not. I do think I'll be able to get one or the other, ultimately. I really like the openness of your second layout.

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What about swinging the peninsula 90 degrees so that it is parallel with the stairwell wall?

    I'm not sure if you have enough space for a full table farther out, but if you don't, you could do a small, semicircular table attached to the end of the peninsula. Measure, measure, measure, since the seating I drew looks very close to the door-swing.

    This gets the door out of the work zone, and gives you a view of your garden while you are prepping and cleaning. : )

    It also gives you the option of a full size stove. I realize you may not use it to full capacity, but if you ever have to sell your place in a hurry for some reason, this would be fully functional for any buyer.

    I'm sorry the sketch is so small. I'll try to get a bigger picture up tomorrow if you're interested.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, Laughable. I can't quite make out your drawing.

    The KD initially gave me 5 options, and one of those was to leave both the existing window & door in place, have a galley kitchen with one of the "l's" of the galley being a peninsula starting between the back window & door & coming down the center of the kitchen, toward the LV - I think that is your suggestion. The KD's plan adds a large window on the west wall, with a sink on the peninsula overlooking the new window.

    Where to put seating was a bit tricky, and no easy way to get a view of outdoors from seating. If I have to choose between a view from seating & a view from the sink (especially if I get a DW, so I'll be at the sink less) I'd rather have a view from seating. The KD had seating around the peninsula, and I do think this option may be well worth exploring.

    Also, I only really care about a view from ONE chair. It's only me, and, when I have company, I'll gladly give up my view for a guest, and (presumably) we'll be more focused on one another than on looking at the garden.

    Here's the KD's plan for that option:

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, the KD and I were thinking along similar lines. : )

    Here's a bigger picture of the sketch. If it was my kitchen, I think I'd attach wire racks to the inside of the basement (or is it a closet?) door for kitchen storage, vitamin storage, etc. It's very convenient to the kitchen and table.

    I wasn't sure which windows were current and which ones were only conceptual at this point. I'd definitely consider a slider or large window across the way from the peninsula if you go with a kitchen like this.

    This post was edited by laughable on Fri, Nov 28, 14 at 9:04

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, laughable. Your concept was, indeed, similar to the KD's. Currently, the back, left (when looking at your drawing) window is existing, and the door is in the back right. There is currently no window or door on the west (right) wall in your drawing.

    Here is the basement landing, when you open that door, as it is now (*sigh*):

    As you can see, I have no (other) coat closet, storage for boots, cat food, cleaning supplies...

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ahhh, we had a basement stairwell that looked a lot like that in our last house!
    I neglected to plan in a broom closet there, and the mops and brooms all ended up hanging on an over the door coat rack on the back of the basement door (which worked pretty well, actually.) Then we had extra coats down the sides of the stairwell just like you do.

    I spent the day yesterday at my dear MIL's house for Thanksgiving. Her kitchen made me think about your kitchen. She cooked an entire meal for 14 in her tiny little kitchen (Most of it she cooked a day ahead.) Her kitchen is basically an L shape with a smallish rectangular table for 4 under a big picture window. It's my absolute favorite room in her house! : ) I love to sit and have a cup of tea with her and look at the beautiful view outside her window. Or, we'll enjoy the sparkly white lights at night that she has strung around the window. It's very cozy. The best conversations happen there.

    Back to your kitchen. With the floor space that you are working with, perhaps it would make more sense to keep your counters to the perimeter of the room. This would leave the middle wide open, spacious, and adaptable. For example, my MIL pushed the long side of her table under her picture window for the buffet last night, leaving more room in the middle of the kitchen for all of us to get around in there. If you had a table that was expandable, you could keep it small and cozy for your day to day use and make it bigger when you have visitors. It could extend into the kitchen as well as outward toward the living room.

    Some tables have built in storage underneath, so this would be a way to sneak a little extra storage into your space, too.

    The table would double as an "island" if you have a bigger kitchen project going. Often when my MIL is peeling potatoes, apples, or some such, she'll sit at the table with a bowl in her lap. She says it's more comfortable than standing at the counter.

    I left the window it's original size to give you more upper cabinets, but you could certainly make it larger! You might even run some cabinets with glass doors over the windows to give you a combo of daylight and storage.

    I also left the door small and put a counter height set of shelves or narrow cabinet between the door and window, but that could be eliminated for a sliding glass door. I guess the storage will have to duke it out with the light! ; )

  • Niki Friedman
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Totally unrelated to your kitchen Carrieb but I'm giving you a shout out from S. Philly. I'm chowing on Geno's as we speak!!!!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Viennamommy - you are SEVEN BLOCKS away from the couch on which I presently reside!

    (you must be chilly!)

  • Niki Friedman
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ha! My husband waited in line. The kids and I stayed in the car and waited for our cheesesteaks to be delivered;)

    DH was saying that if he lived near Geno's, he'd be 400lbs. He is obsessed with it- we have to go every time we're in Philly (which is often since my parents live here!).

    South Philly is such an awesome area. I think your kitchen reno will be a great investment!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, laughable. If I decide to move forward with moving the door/adding a window, your most recent plan could work!

    Will let you all know when last week's guy gets back to me w/ layout suggestions. So far, assuming moving window/door, I still think my KD's plan meets the most needs. Amazing how many permutations one small place can have!

    Viennamommy - if I weren't a vegetarian... though Philly has PLENTY of veg ways to achieve 400 lbs, too!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Laughable (et al.) I keep thinking more about your (& KD's) plan that has a peninsula running from the back center wall, between existing door & existing window straight back in towards the LV.

    If we leave the window & door as is, and (I hope) add a large window on the west wall - well, I'm thinking that maybe there's a way we can get that to work.

    The good with that plan:
    -No need to move door or change existing window.
    -Sink looks out a nice big window overlooking prettiest part of garden

    The bad with that plan:
    -I think this plan provides less counter space & less storage than other plans
    -Seating* (even without a garden view) will be a challenge (whatever seating we do will be my only dining seating.)

    *A note on seating: Usually, it's just me here. I would like for seating to be able to accommodate 3-4 people. If I have more that 3 guests, we'll sit in the LR.

    That plan does move the sink (and therefore newly washed dishes a bit back from the LR, so maybe between that & less storage, and a pretty view, the need for a DW is less & I could buy another 18/24 inches of storage if I forgo a DW.

    Thank you again, for everyone who has been so generous with their time & knowledge. I love that I can come here and "think out loud" and get answers that are far more thoughtful & educated than the answers I could ever give myself!

    Here's that plan (from the KD's original layout options) again (note that I probably would not go with a 30" range as drawn):

  • laughablemoments
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's incredible to have so many people think through a design, isn't it?

    I'm hoping that the cost of redoing the windows and doors will be tolerable. If it is, and permitting is not a problem, and if it were my house (ha! Can you picture all 9 of us squeezing in there? LOL) I think I'd go for the kitchen L that wraps the 2 back walls and put a sliding glass door to the garden, with the door opening side of the slider put closest to the living room so that it didn't interfere with the fridge opening and closing.

    If you do decide to go with the peninsula plan, you might be able to bump out the window across from the sink some so that you could squeeze a window seat in underneath it. Then you could put drawers under the cushion and gain some extra storage.

    I think that's the most difficult part of living in a small space, making sure that there's enough storage to accommodate all of the stuff that comes with living life so that it doesn't feel crowded or cluttered. We lived in an awesome 600 sq. ft. apt. for a few years when our oldest 3 were little girls, and it was one of our favorite places to live. It had awesome closets (over 20 l.f. of them), so it worked really well. And we could vacuum the whole thing from one outlet, LOL. ; )

    Keep us posted on how you make out. : )

  • Mags438
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fyi-The GC/contractor you go with should be responsible for obtaining city permits, arranging inspections at the appropriate time, etc. Cost of the inspections should be online and should be included in labor costs.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, Mags - according to the GC - routine contracts are included, but, since (my - perhaps faulty - recollection of the conversation) my permits will involve (a) getting a variance or (b) combining the two lots into one - that work (the work of getting a variance/combining lots) would be my responsibility.

    Since I'm not 100% sure, I've asked the office manager (GC's mother, who relayed the quote) to have the GC call me back to clarify permit issue.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yup. The variance and deed work etc is on you and will require an attorney.

  • Niki Friedman
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carrieb- are you a native Philadelphian? I was born @ Einstein Hospital and lived in NE Philly until we moved to the burbs when I was 9. My parents are born and bred and have really never left. My mom grew up in the northeast and my dad in West Philly until they moved to the NE. Temple for college and grad school. Most of my friends from home have parents with the same background.

    I LOVE Philly. Haven't lived there since I left for college but will always think of myself as a Philly girl ;) My husband grew up in Manhattan and he always says I have more grit than he does ;)

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Carrieb, is there a reason you aren't considering the layout I suggested more seriously? I don't say that petulantly -- I am curious what the flaw was that took it off the table because as the conversation continues, you keep mentioning wanting things that it gives you. And this last thing about wanting to seat 3-4, I think mine is the only plan proposed so far that gives you that. All the plans with peninsulas seat just two, and you seem to be considering those most seriously.

    So I am now wondering if whatever took mine off the table could be tweaked since it gives you so much else of what you want -- more seating, the window over the sink, the door to the yard where you want it, views of the side yard, etc.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm so sorry, Jillius. I think I just got caught up & your design fell through the cracks. I had to just scroll back a ways to remind myself what your design was - and, since I don't get notifications, sometimes I come back & there are several comments and I just forget to respond to them all adequately.

    I know I also got on a kick recently about minimizing structural changes, so I started thinking about ways to keep the door where it is which caused me to de-emphasize layouts that had the door moving.

    I like your design a lot. Your design does me adequate seating. I wonder if, using your layout, we could maybe move the door closer to the table so there's be a view of the garden while eating? At least for one person - looking out the closer part of the door?

    I think I'd also move the DW to the other side of the sink - I know it would be in the way of traffic (me, & only me,) but I could unload it from either side, that way.

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Speaking of seating - both the existing layout, and the KD's layout (peninsula in similar places) do allow for seating for four. Now - and if I do end up w/ KD's layout - I just pull the table out from the peninsula a couple feet, and pull over two of the LR chairs to put on either end.

  • Jillius
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I had no idea your current table seats four! It looks tiny! Do people's knees bump each other?

    While adding the window partly in front of the table would certainly solve what you want functionally, I think the asymmetry of the window and the fact that the table would only be partly in front of it might look kind of odd? And there would be some difficulty with the window added there with somehow making the wall flat for the table to be against because the bump-out for that plumbing and the window would be different depths.

    What if instead, you altered what is underneath your bay window to be more like this:

    You could add both storage and room for legs. Then you'd have a dedicated desk, you'd have a place to eat breakfast by yourself that overlooks the garden, and the desk chair would be handy when you walk into the house to sit in while you take off your shoes. When not using the desk, keep the chair pushed in all the way, and it won't block the walkway in front of the front door.

    And the structural work would be minimal because the header and window would stay the same.

    Another thing I thought of was inspired by your comment that if you have more than three guests, you sit in the living room instead. There are coffee tables that transform into dining tables. If you traded out your current coffee table for one of those, it could just be your dining table whenever you have anybody over (so whenever you have 2+ people eating together, you'd eat in the living room).

    The beauty of this is, if you did that and also made the change I suggested above to the bay window (which would create an everyday place for you to have meals alone), all your seating needs would be covered. Where I originally put a table, you'd no longer need one, and then you could put 5' wide x 2' deep closet there or a long, shallow pantry or a big bookshelf or whatever you want. With no closet currently on this floor, it seems as if you could really use the storage!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Marcolo - thanks for the tip, re: attorney.

    Viennamommy - I move to Philly from central/north Jersey in 1997. Have never looked back. I LOVE it hear. And I've got a whole tassle of transplant friends who are all delighted to have landed ourselves in the best city on earth. ;)

    Jillius - I so rarely have 4 people sitting at the table, that I don't recall if we bump knees. Perhaps we do. I've definitely had 3 people (I often host couples via airbnb, and will pull a LR chair up to the table to sit with them) and I don't remember bumping knees. If this were a 4 person household, the table would be too small. It does have two leaves on it, though, so with the leaves out, the space would be tight, but no knocking knees. I fold the leaves out when I have a party, push the table against the wall & use it as a buffet.

    What an interesting idea about the bay window! I absolutely could use the storage. Right now, I store cloth napkins, place mats and tablecloths in a bureau in the living room. Those could absolutely go in bay window storage, as well as a bunch of other less use items. Not to mention umbrellas, boots, hats, scarves. Wow. Plus, we could make one of those drawer a file (right?) so my frequently referred to documents could stay there, instead of the guestroom. And also a mini-office! So worth thinking about regardless of what layout I come up with. And the seating... nice!

    I think I like the main seating area where you have it. My existing table would fit there well, and with the pull-out leaves, it can easily seat more. I don't have dinner parties, per se, and living room seating for my potlucks a couple times a year works out fine.

    This week, my plan is to begin permit research - contact the KD & the City to find out first steps. Also will talk to the other KD/contractor - the one who flips houses to see if he had new layout ideas, and to run some your plans' ideas (Jillius, lavendar_lass, laughable, sena, cluelessincolorodo, et al) past him.

    Thanks again, so much. So inspired right now!

  • Carrie B
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jillius - thinking more about your plan. There's only 47" of space on the kitchen side of the stairwell, if that makes sense, so I don't know that there'll be room for the door & fridge, let alone pantry. It's not at all clear from the drawing I posted of the existing layout.

    A part of that back wall east wall in the kitchen is taken up with utilities (we think) and some of it be the stairwell going upstairs.