"if people are going to feel constricted in the kitchen, my honest opinion is that perhaps they should pay more rent per couple and try to cram less people in. "

ROTFLMAO!

We have many talented folks here, but I am skeptical that anyone will pull a hat out of this rabbit. Maybe I live the wrong kind of lifestyle, but when I think of cooking for large groups while on vacation, I think of outdoor gas grills, microwaves and a large indoor griddle for scrambled eggs and bacon -- not full gourmet meals and piles of dishes. Doesn't Mom get a vacation, too?

MY first concern for a group that big would be if there's enough hot water.

I think of *going *out to eat on vacation. I would want cooking to be at a minimum, get in the kitchen, throw it together and get out. I think the double fridge for storage and the double DW is key--but I would hope the occupants would be more interested in hanging out than cooking elaborately. The square footage of the kitchen plan should be good for a vacation place I would hope. Maybe I have low expectations for a vacation place. The one shown here seems to be very commodious and adaptable to me...

I'm finding several architectural problems with this particular layout.

A) Master bath is shared with the entire floor
B) There is a broom closet and a Maid's Closet. Are any items, such as linens, that will be stored in the MC in addition to the obvious cleaning supplies/vacuum? Is there a Laundry Room where the linens could be stored instead? This could leave the broom closet for brooms/cleaning supplies and open up the Maid's Closet for the ice maker/and or prep sink and making that a wet bar? Also, see C below...
C) Is the bookshelf a necessity? Could that area be used to add square footage to the bath (as palimpsest suggested in the 1st rendering? That wall for linens could be full height, with one area locked as an owners closet/locked linen closet)?
D) Are the Office and Sunroom necessities? Could you borrow some room from one or both of them? It seems that space from the SR could be better utilized as an extension of the Kitchen and the space of the Office used as an area for a half bath so that the Master Bath isn't open for visitors to use?
E) The DWs in the corner are not going to be multi-user-friendly, especially if kids are helping to clean up (I can hear the moaning now, "Mom, he's in my way" ;) ). I would move the sink and DWs to the wall where the icemaker is now, having the sink flanked by the DWs, or add 2-4 dish drawers. The prep sink can be where the main sink is now.

I would also suggest a Double Oven/Cooktop for the kitchen for all of the reasons stated above. At our beach house (also in NC. Woo, NC!) we can sleep only 15, but we often cook for 5-40. We have a double oven/microwave combo (a life saver) and an island cooktop. The drinks are made at the wet bar (a former guest closet housed in the Great Room) by the men, and meals are cooked in the kitchen.

Also, as a renter, I would not want only one bathroom that would be shared by me (a master bath user) and any stragglers that crashed on one of the couches or in the office or sunroom. I think that a second half or full bath would be far more appreciated by potential renters than extra room for more bodies that need to shower/have "alone" time ;)

Good luck!

Is there a possibility of getting a private shower outside on the deck? Is there an area underneath the house that is designed to break away in a hurricane? Could an extra shower be placed here?

palimpsest Is there a possibility of getting a private shower outside on the deck? Is there an area underneath the house that is designed to break away in a hurricane? Could an extra shower be placed here?

Excellent question. I have used our actual "master bath shower" twice in the last 15 years (and that's a big "maybe") as I always use the outdoor shower that's located under the house. I still think that a half bath, at least, would be ideal on that floor, though.

Real quick reply to Barb and a couple other's questions ... (I haven't forgotten all you other people, but your answers just take longer!! LOL.)

In a previous version, we had a half bath also on the top floor and BR1 bath was private, but did away with that in favor of the elevator. We have what is called a reverse floorplan ... the living area shown here is the top floor, the middle floor is bedrooms, and the ground floor is parking etc under the house. Because the living area is 2 flights up, many many people had recommended an elevator and it does also help rentals at the beach and opens the home up for people with special needs like elderly or wheelchair bound (or people who plain don't want to carry groceries up 2 flights of stairs). If you were getting this house for your group, and could pick either extra 1/2 bath -or- elevator, what would your group pick ? Anyone else ... feel free to chime in here, we love opinions !!

One of the reasons the elevator is notched is that it cut 16 square feet without any difference to the use of the home. We are maxed out on the sq.ft. we will be allowed to build. Also, the air units will be in the indention (instead of exposed on the side of the house) which will partially help protect them from the salt spray.

As far as other baths ... the bedroom level has 5 bedrooms and 4 baths (also laundry with 2 washers/dryers and a small coffee bar). 3 baths are private to their 3 bedrooms. The final bath is sort of a Hollywood bath ... there are 2 antechambers with private sinks and in between is the room with toilet and shower. 1 bedroom has direct access to their vanity from their bedroom. The final bedroom will have to walk 4 feet (past the door to the elevator) to access their vanity area. I didn't notice once we changed to elevator that BR1 was still labelled master. Technically it isn't (although it will be the one we use when there alone, so maybe it is "the master"). We do have 2 more real masters downstairs. There will also be a hot/cold enclosed shower on ground level. I learned something new ... did you know there are a LOT of people who NEVER take an inside shower when they stay at the beach ? They always use the outside one and won't stay in a house that does not have one !!

Maids closet was to be locked and house the cleaning supplies along with extra dishes, blender, etc. Owners cabinet under eating bar would be for us to keep food we don't want to leave out between trips. We do have a full size owners closet downstairs though. Our idea for the office would be multi-purpose and also be where the XBox would be for the kids. Or am I showing my age? Does anyone play XBox anymore or is it just Wii ?

We will not be allowed to have a pool on our property. Other than the "reaaaallly big pool" (we are oceanfront *grin*). But we will have an outside hot tub, whirlpool in one of the master baths, steam shower in one master bath (maybe in two), grill, fireplace, hammock, big screen tv, and many many other ammenities. We are also trying to decide on a dry sauna. We don't think it would be used much in summer, but like the fireplace, would be great for off season rentals.

We are leaning towards charcoal grill (but a nice big built in one) ... because ... there is no natural gas on the island and if it was propane grill, would we be responsible for providing renters with propane tanks and what if renters ran out of gas during the week ? Thoughts on that ? It is a law that no grilling is allowed on the decks. There are 3 ways to get from the top floor to the ground floor ... from inside staircase down 2 flights of stairs, by elevator, or from top deck there is a spiral stair that takes you to middle deck and then a regular stair that takes you to ground.

On our island, every single ocean front rental home is pretty much rented every single peak season summer week. If it comes down to it, and I have to give up something in our plans in favor of something else better , then I am ok with it, and it really will not affect our rentals. However, I do want to include every detail that I am able to for the comfort and convenience of our guests.

palimpsest sums up what we are trying to accomplish so well !! Also, most of the bedrooms are fairly small, but we figure very little time is spent in the bedrooms when you are at the beach ! We have concentrated on having a variety of family areas where people can break off into groups and making them as spacious as possible. We have been working on our plans and making lists for 4 years tweaking and improving and are finally about a month away from applying for our building permit. Yaaaay !! We would revisit the plans about once a month to see if we could find anything to change looking at it fresh and it is very different from where we started thanks to many great suggestions. Sometimes we would have to give up some things we liked to be able to have something else we liked or someone suggested. Sometimes it was just moving a wall or a door 2 inches or the dishwasher to the other side of the kitchen * : ) * which would make it more livable & friendly. That has really been our focus when designing ... each area big enough and laid out to the peak of it's potential, but not one inch too big or wasted space.

P.S. alabamanicole, you sound like you vacation like we do ... we are all about sandwiches for lunch and going out for dinner or having it delivered. If we want gourmet, Causeway Gourmet DOES deliver !!

1 >

note : option #5 requires a slimmer shower

Our group requires both an elevator and a half bath on the livingroom level. If we had to pick one, we would pick the ½ bath. We already booked our beach house for Summer 2010 on OBX and we did not pick one of the houses because it did not have an elevator.

We dont gourmet cook at all! Its sandwiches for lunch on the beach and pizza for dinner most nights. We still find that we need a decent kitchen with the amenities that Ive mentioned. Weve had less equipped kitchens when we first started renting, and found that we kept bumping into each other and running out of refrigerator room for the beer! A kitchen with one refrigerator would be a dealbreaker for us. We also have gas grills provided at most homes, although we have rented them in the past.

No pool? Do other oceanfront homes in your community have pools? We dont care about how small bedrooms are. Just that there are enough bathrooms for everyone.

Everyone has different wants and needs in an oceanfront vacation home. What's good for our group may not be good for another! As long as your home is rented out all season, that's what really matters.

Your are very fortunate that you are able to have such a wonderful vacation home! I have been enjoying this thread and can't wait to see the finished house! Good luck!

Barb

Yes, we are thrilled about this home too. We have worked so long & hard to be able to get the lot and then to get into a position where we could build. I feel like the kid in the commercial going to Disney World ... I'm too excited to sleep !

71% of the homes have less bathrooms than the number of bedrooms (32% have 1 less bath, 39% have 2 or 3 less baths i.e. 6 bedroom house has 3 baths)

Only 30% of the oceanfront homes have a pool. I do not remember when I researched if they all had a private pool, or possibly some of those I marked as having a pool because they have access to a public pool. It was a couple years ago when I compiled the numbers.

I know this home has to have some give & take. We just have to do the best we can do under our limitations. : )

We've rented beach houses (in NC too, must be very popular, LOL). We all have small children so we cook most meals at the house. It saves all of our sanity to not have to get the kids out of the ocean and/or hot tub, dressed and then wait for our table to be called at a restaurant. So we use the kitchen a lot! I bring a griddle because breakfast is much easier if you can cook all the food at once. If you supply one I'm sure it would be appreciated. Your kitchen seems OK except for the DW placement. I would get those out from between the sink and stove. We usually have a couple people cooking while someone else empties the DW to get ready for the next meal. I actually think the wet bar in the kitchen area is fine. It can double as a secondary prep area and it's convenient to the fridge for those mixers. If it were my kitchen on vacation, I would move the ice maker to the peninsula, bar sink to the corner, a DW where the icemaker is. Ditch the shallow cabinets to the right of the main sink and move the other DW to the right of the sink. That gives space for two people at the stove and/or two people at the main sink. For us I wouldn't say anything is a must in the kitchen as long as it's got a fridge, stove and a sink, it's only a week. We're more about location.

A bookcase is nice, but not really needed on vacation. We usually bring our own books. Having some games would be nice too. One place we stayed had a foosball table that we all loved! The guys loved the basketball hoop too.

Another must for us is an outdoor shower for DH and bunk beds and a hot tub for my DD's. For me watching the waves roll in at night after the kids go to bed is my favorite.

Good luck a beach house sounds so exciting!

griddle . . . . . . or . . . . . . . electric griddle ?

I bring my cast iron two burner griddle, but an electric one would free up the stove for potatos or eggs.

Are the Office and Sunroom necessities? Could you borrow some room from one or both of them? It seems that space from the SR could be better utilized as an extension of the Kitchen and the space of the Office used as an area for a half bath so that the Master Bath isn't open for visitors to use?

This summed up my thoughts completely. You could have a much, much roomier and more comfortable kitchen by stealing room from the sunroom.

I picture a nice, big island with lots of seating and room for spreading out sandwich fixins or a buffet dinner. The fridges could be over on the wall next to the stairs, and you'd have plenty of room for two DWs and a bigger range with multiple ovens.

I also think using part of that space for another bath (even a half bath) would be worth much more than one more bedroom in a house that has so many others.

I think there is some validity in having rooms that can be closed off and used separately without having to go and sit on your bed. Particularly the office. The rest of the public spaces are very open and communal. I am sure there will be people who need to be away from everyone else at various points whether to work, or do something that is not the same as what is going on out in the LR/DR.

It just seems like 20-something people would be more comfortable in a place with a larger kitchen--something like this?

I haven't read every bit of today's conversation, but I have to say something about the size of the kitchen.

It's FINE.

I have plenty of experience cooking for 25-50 people, in a smaller kitchen proper (about the same including adjacent space) with 2-3 ovens, one microwave, a full sized fridge and full sized freezer, with separate beverage fridge, one sink, one bar sink, and one dishwasher. Since we're talking about a weekend's worth of meals, and less need to hold frozen, swap fridge and freezer for two fridges with freezer compartments and separate ice maker. Add another DW.

This kitchen even has a good plating station. The more I think about it, your range plus double ovens might be better if there's any winter traffic (whole turkey or ham, baked potatoes, hot casseroles). Another option, though harder to explain to renters would be a portable, countertop oven.

While there are plenty of the go outers in the world, and the dozen golf guys might be that, as was mentioned up topic, a lot of family reunioners cook. They put their money into the house and getting there, and they don't want to deal with the logistics of ferrying everyone to a restaurant, getting all their orders in a compact amount or time, etc., and separating for meals defeats a lot of the purpose.

My friends who do the beach house thing also prepare all their meals. They do a lot of cold breakfasts and make your own sandwich lunches, and pre-cook and reheat the dinners, sometimes, but they still need kitchens. And "kitchens" means fridges and ovens more than anything else. And knives.

So to your questions about what I said about ovens. Yes, I mean that nowadays 24" ovens are smaller inside than they used to be, and 27"/30" ovens are the size inside that the 24" ones were. 27", unfortunately, seems to be on its way out. It seems to me that 30" is becoming standard, with 24" being made mostly for retrofitting into older cabinets. I really, really advise you to get the 30" double ovens.

I know you like having the pantry, but I think it's the least necessary thing for the guests. Can you squeeze a cupboard in somewhere near the kitchen, like in the dining room, near the sunroom door, for a china cabinet, to get some of the dishes out of the kitchen? That way you could use some of the space you've allotted to dish storage to pantry/bring your own stuff storage. Along with moving the bar out of the kitchen, including a lot of the glasses, this should allow you to get the appliances you want into the kitchen.

Moving out the dish and glass storage also makes beverage service and table setting that much easier, and keep little helpers out of the kitchen proper.

Unlike some of the messages I saw up thread, I think the sunroom and office that double as bedrooms is very clever, because they're really bedrooms that double as a sunroom and an office when it's being a family home.

But I have to agree on the bathroom situation. You really do need another bathroom or two on the living level. Your DR seats more than a dozen people with only one throne? And when you have two people in the bedroom, two in the sunroom, two in the office, and four in the pullouts, where are they going to brush their teeth or get up to go pee? I think you need the bathroom you have, plus section off a piece of the right side of the deck for a small 3/4 private bath for the master. Then you could loose the second door to the bigger bathroom, and have a double vanity. I don't know where it could be, but add another powder room, and this might be livable.

OTR microwaves are no-no's because they don't pull enough of the fumes out, especially when one is cooking spaghetti sauce for 30 people, or searing meat for stew for 20, or whatever. They're dangerous because you have to reach over hot pots that can be steaming without being visibly that hot, and you can get scalded. Things in the MW can feel touchable but be much hotter when gripped. The angle for lifting things down has one with extended arms so is difficult for lifting heavy things anyway. So there's a lot of danger of dropping and/or spattering if the vessel is burning hot after all. Etc. In ordinary homes the MW is often used when the stove isn't. Not so for your setup.

Do some searching on the threads and you'll find some topics about putting upper storage to the ceiling above standard cabinets (the very top gets filled with trim). It's storage that you can't get to without a stepladder, but would be good for things you want to leave, or for special things like that portable oven I mentioned.

I think you did a great job on the cut and paste. Yes, the configuration you did would work. It's not the prettiest, and I'd prefer to see standard height double ovens, but it'll work.

I couldn't find "WO" in the thread. "DO" is double ovens, so yes, wall ovens.

I also like the plan as is but since there are a lot of suggestions about a powder room, what if there was a powder room where the sunroom is, the dining room shifted up a bit into the remainder of that space, and the eating porch became the sunroom, with the sleeping options?

I have been searching the internet ... are microwaves available to buy that will fit in a 12" deep upper cabinet ? Would I even want one of those ? It seems awfully shallow to me. The interior would be tiny, wouldn't it ? What about a 15" deep upper cabinet fit ?

I think the frig door bottleneck is problem, if you can think how to open that up. The frig will get a big workout and right now, someone gazing into it will block the kitchen. Depends on if you expect one or 2 persons to rustle up meals for all, or if you expect folks to want to get their own drinks, pop something in the micro. So a more open zonal plan could be good. Any interest in a drink frig separate from the food frig?

OTOH, the kitchen can't be all things to all groups.

Here are the shallowest I could find. I have the GE Spacemaker and the cavity is pretty large, but its a microwave for a couple people, not a crowd.

I am not recommending this vendor, in particular, but they have good search options, by dimension, etc.

Sorry I forgot the link

I agree that a full sized MW would be more useful. That's another thing against the OTR, but that's individual desires, not saftey. A lot of people prefer to cook vegetables in the microwave, for instance, so include big pyrex covered casseroles in the pots. That's how we do green beans for 25.

If it were for your own use, I'd say get an Advantium to stack with a second oven, which could function as either a third oven or a large microwave, but there's a goodly learning curve and you don't want to trust guests coming in to figure out how to use it. Much better things that turn on and off very simply.

Ooooooh !! Bookmarking that website. Awesome search features ! You have been sooooooo helpful. And your layouts have inspired me to see things differently that I had come to a mind-block on. The bad news is that I have stayed up until the wee hours of the morning 2 nights in a row playing with different design options. Too bad I don't have much time for it during the day. Darn work gets in my way.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I have a couple observations about "maximum capacity" when it comes to rental properties. I do not have a beach house but know and deal with a number of people who do.

I would be rather wary of renters who want to fill the house to maximum capacity. They are probably vacationing at the very top or over their budget. I am not sure that they are going to be concerned about the amenity of "personal space".

An acquaintance of mine said she stopped renting her house to larger groups because they "Came in acting as if they were used to no less than the Ritz-Carlton and left it looking like the Motel-6 after the crack-wh*res checked out."

I client of mine recently bought a house on the agreement that she would honor the rentals (some agreements made almost a year before). From one large group in particular, she received irate phone calls because there was a lightbulb burnt out, and there was "dog hair EVERY where"
(Her dog had been there overnight when she cleaned the house.)She had the housecleaner go back and re-vacuum, and the housecleaner showed them the canister and said "There really wasnt very much at all, so if you are allergic, I wouldnt worry" Well they didn't need any "smart-mouthing from a *house keeper!" (Who happens to be a college instructor in the regular semester). By the end of the week they had broken a faucet, which they let run, pushed two screens out of the windows --which they hid in the attic with a bag of trash that was their responsibility to take off-shore. The neighbor said their behavior had been horrendous. In contrast, the smaller groups of people, who paid more per couple, were problem free.

I agree with much of what pllog said--including ditching the pantry. Having the extra counter space for prepping and plating would be more impt. Also agree about having more frig vs. freezer space. Double ovens plus an outdoor grill should be adequate. I also would advise against the Advantium given the rental status--it can be a bit complex to use if you are not familiar with it and greater risk of renters using improperly. The GE Spacemaker is a pretty good little microwave and can even fit in a 8.5x11 casserole dish. Should be fine for the renters.

I also agree about the need for another bath on the main floor. If needed you can even carve out space for the maid's closet in the garage or take some space from a bedroom closet since most renters won't need a full closet.

A thing I thought about last night was with a hot tub, you may want to brace yourself for A LOT of sand to get in sometimes. We are careful to rinse off our kids (and us too) before they go into the tub, but alas by the end of the week, there is quite a bit of sand at the bottom. I don't know if there is anything out there, but we would have liked some way to clean up the sand somehow. DH made a makeshift sand vacuum with a hose filled with water which helped, but something with a bit more umph would have been nice.

UPDATE . . .

Sorry I have been so long getting back. Been sooooo busy ! But I have put a lot of thought into what has been said. I know this thread is getting long. For those just joining us, if you don't want to read everyone's comments please be sure to read all of mine at least. I have explained a lot of things about the home in other postings.

OK ... so now DH who was originally all about having a wetbar for the upstairs is giving me a veto on moving the wetbar out of the kitchen. Here is his main (and most reasonable) reason, but he does have others as well ... The wetbar will have sink & ice & fridge but no dishwasher, so where will the glasses & cups be stored ? If stored in the kitchen, they will all have to be toted to the wetbar to fill with ice and make drinks. If stored at the wetbar, they will be carried to DW in kitchen and then toted to the wetbar for storage. He also does not like the mini fridge there. We will already have 2 full-size fridges 12 feet away at the kitchen which he says is redundant. We will also have a mini fridge on each of the other 2 floors. He says we do not need more than 4 fridges. LOL !!

However, thanks to palimpsest's BRILLIANT designs, it allowed me to think differently on the layout for the master bath. I have tweaked the plan and it now includes the master bath being private to the bedroom, a half bath, the maid closet (bigger actually), the bookcase (moved), and also we get to keep the elevator !!!!!!! Basically, putting a half bath where she had made room for the wetbar. Yay !

I am posting a pic of the new changes and would love comments. Here are my thoughts on how it would work ... the DW on the main sink side of the prep sink* allows it to be reached from both sinks when necessary and gives 2 cleanup areas for after meals. We would use the cabinets above prep area for all dishes and cups in 6'9" of uppers. Peninsula and both sides of prep sink area could be used for people helping prep before dinner and keeping those people out of the way of cleaning/heating/cooking people on other side of kitchen. There will be a fitted top for the prep sink so it can be used as extra counterspace when desired. Once dinner was close to ready, one person could be there putting dishes out onto peninsula to be placed at table or food could be plated and put onto peninsula from there. Helpers in the dining area would grab plates from the stool side of the peninsula. Another person could be to left of ice maker putting ice into glasses which could be transferred to peninsula. After dinner, dirty dishes would go in prep sink dishwasher and be easy to put away from there. Silverware, tupperware, and serving bowls/platters go in drawers under peninsula. (*for groups that are into drinking and not cooking, we can call the prep area the wetbar : )

Pots/pans/cooking utensils would be stored in drawers next to range. Bowls, pyrex dishes, baking dishes, etc would be in the uppers there. Those kind of items could go in dishwasher beside main sink and be easy to put away from there. Small appliances go in the shallow cabinets to the right of the main sink.

Pantry, microwave, range (or cooktop & under counter oven), and 2nd oven configuration will be more exactly decided when picking out those appliances, but that wall gives the general idea. Agree with Advantium being too complex probably for most renters. One thing I do not want to give up is the pantry cabinet space. I remember my mom having to keep food in an upper cabinet when I was a kid and it sucked ! She later converted the coat closet to a pantry and I have never owned a home without one since. I was not kidding when I said I have gone to rental cottages and rearranged the cabinets, lol. I don't want to sit my groceries out on the counter or cram stuff behind each other in one upper cabinet. I like to see each item out front with nothing in front of it. And 20-30 people would have a lot of pantry items too ... not everything goes in the fridges. I am ok with a half height pantry though. I envision either pullout shelves or better I think would be half depth shelves inside the pantry cabinet along with half depth shelves on the door. Something like this ... http://jdorganizer.blogspot.com/2009/02/space-saving-idea-fold-out-pantries.html. I am not opposed to taking 6" off of the adjoining cabinet and adding 6" to be able to fit a 30" wall oven in that space (as an added bonus, it will make the pantry even bigger!).

1. One thing you have not been able to see in these plans is that the ceilings are vaulted in the kitchen, dining, and living room areas. Although, you can kinda tell in the pictures from Sun, Oct 4, 09 at 19:46 showing the difference of full height vs half pantry. How high should I go with the uppers ? "To the ceiling" is not an option when it is 13 feet ! LOL. The way it is currently drawn is 42" uppers.

2. Any thoughts on what to do with trash ? I am thinking a pullout under one side of the main sink and possibly a small trash can under the prep sink.

3. I have now shortened the peninsula an additional 2" giving a total of 44". I would love to hear from people who have a single door fridge facing a counter/cabinet edge ... what is the width of your fridge, what clearance do you have, and how do you feel about it ?

4. Barb, how do you like your Maytag Gemini double oven setup ? Do you also have another separate oven or do you find this does what you need ?

5. hsw, what is a double oven/microwave combo ? Is that 2 ovens and also a microwave above them ? Where in NC ?

6. Thoughts on gas grill vs charcoal ? We are leaning towards charcoal grill (but a nice big built in one) ... because ... there is no natural gas on the island and if it was propane grill, would we be responsible for providing renters with propane tanks and what if renters ran out of gas during the week ? Thoughts on that ?

7. hsw and holligator, we will put some more thought into giving up the sunroom in lieu of a larger kitchen. I showed DH the pic when you first posted it but need to get together with him to explore that idea in more detail. We have always leaned towards having the sunroom as a space people could get away or visit with a few people instead of being in the main living area. For example, maybe the men are all watching football in the LR, the ladies could be in the sunroom, and the kids would be playing video games in the office. I know a lot of people have said this is a small kitchen, but until I was told that, I thought it was pretty big ! Huge compared to our kitchen at home and also it is bigger than all of the kitchens in beach homes we have stayed at. Last year we stayed at a 7BR home that is over 4,000sf that had a kitchen smaller than this one. (they could have used some TKO GW help! It wasn't laid out very well either, but it did have a huge walk in pantry, lol. This was the home I mentioned earlier that had the fridge too close to the counter. here and exterior)

8. mom2lilenj, Thanks for the thoughts on the sand in the hot tub. We will definitely do some research on that. I have added large griddle and electric griddle to the list of kitchen stuff.

Angela, Your DH's reasonable reasons for wanting the wetbar inside the kitchen are the exact reasons I wanted to get it out! I understand his reasoning. I really think it's going to lead to some traffic jams, but that's just something to cope with. Smart tenants will appoint a bartender during meal prep time and have him/her doing beverage service across the peninsula, I think, to keep the traffic in and out of the kitchen under control. Or maybe you could provide a couple extra trays and an ice bucket, so that a harried mom can set out sodas, cups and ice on the coffee table on an ad hoc basis.

I have about the same distance in my new kitchen between the fridge and the island as you have. My old one had a little more room. I think you could even do with the original 42". The entrance to the kitchen is a bottleneck. It just is. I think the peninsula is very useful, including as a block to too many people just walking in when they're not welcome, as a buffet, and as a serve across counter. Any time the fridge doors open, especially since tenants aren't going to always remember where they put what, so will be opening both at once, there's just not going to be walking space. The peninsula gives good landing space for someone standing in the middle of the two open fridges. And anyone who wants to get by can just wait!

That's the range with the two ovens, right? And a large wall oven plus MW? That sounds like a fantastic way to have adequate oven space. I actually saw something this week that said that the larger oven was really a full sized oven, and the smaller one took the place of a utility or warming drawer with a similar depth. If so, you might be able to squeek by with just the range, though the additional wall oven is that much better for feeding mobs. That's the turkey, and potatoes, in the big oven and carrot souffle and stuffing in the smaller one, and the vegetarian lasagna or ham in the wall oven. Baby squash in the microwave, soup, green beans and gravy on the cooktop. Voila! It's Thanksgiving!

This dishwasher arrangement looks very doable. The two aren't grossly far apart, and both are close enough to point of use and storage. Especially since, with the alternate cleanup area in the bar, whoever is loading the one DW can ask the other cleaner-upper if there's room for another baking sheet in the other machine, and then just reach it across.

Just visually, I don't like the open shelves where you show them. I don't know if that's just a place holder or what. I think they chop up the space, and it would look more unified with all cabinets, especially since you have glass over the sink (a very good thing that). If you really want to maximize space you can put some very shallow shelves on the bumped out wall where the art is. It's a little in the way of the sink, but you could put glass (or acrylic) shelves, maybe with a little lip in front for safety, for barware or mugs, one glass deep. Maybe 4". If you want art there, you could do a mural on the wall and hang the shelves over it, and fill with clear glasses.

Do check the measures on the powder room and master bath. I think you've been very clever! But both spaces look tight. Tight is okay on a party house, so long as there's enough room for someone with crutches or a walker to use one or the other, or someone of generous proportions to turn around.

Re the grill, is there someplace in the town that rents propane grills? I think a lot of people would rather use gas, but totally hear you on the maintenance issues. If there was someone who would deliver and pick up a rental, then you could advertise the built-in charcoal grills and mention that the others are available.

Re the cathedral ceilings, I have seen beautiful cabinetry up to the ceiling, but it doesn't come in a box from a factory, and does require a ladder. Probably not what you're looking for. :-)

Gotta say, that powder room makes a huge difference!!!

Do you need the bump out on the right side to the north of the DW on the plan.? It really makes that peak look unpleasantly lopsided.

I am not trying to be harsh, just brief :)

The addition of the powder room is great.

Yes, range with 2 ovens is first choice. Or either, range with built in warming drawer such as Samsung shown in 1st post.

The bump out is for head clearance coming up the stairs to the right of the kitchen. Since the bump out is 9", I had 10" deep open shelves there as transition to the 12" deep upper cabinets. HOWEVER, once again, you guys are helping me see outside the box I had put myself in (by suggesting that something could be put on that wall instead of art and by suggesting that the peak looked unpleasant). . .

I don't see any reason why the bottom cabinets couldn't be 15" deep with the bumpout behind them which would be 36" tall of extra head clearance for the stairs. Then there could be a standard depth counter over the bottom cabinets and the bumpout. The wall above the counter would continue to the ceiling not bumped out and would have upper cabinets on it. I would think they could just frame the bumpout part with a header like they would a door frame. It would take careful explaining to the framers so they would understand. But can you think of any reason it wouldn't work ? No one would know that the bottom cabinets are only 15" deep below the counter in that area until they open the doors. The peak is still off balance, but not as much.

Here are some pictures of the half wall bumpout. I'm not crazy about the look of 12 feet of straight upper cabinets. Although I do love the extra cabinet space !! How could I dress it up some ? Also, I am thinking the single cabinet to the left of the palladian window over the sink should be narrower. In the photo below, it is shown as 21" wide. I think 18" looks better, and 15" looks too narrow. 12" would give the same amount of spacing on each side of the window, but looks way way too narrow to me.

Yeh, I am thrilled with the half bath addition. That was one of the only things that we did not like about the elevator plans. The other 2 things we had to give up was ... one of the 2 bays of under house parking (which we are ok with because we will put a ping pong table and some other things under there now) ... and one bedroom on the lower floor will not have direct access to their bath (they will have to walk 4 feet past the elevator to get to their bathroom). I double-checked code & these baths are more spacious than code requires. Code is min 2'6" wide and min clearance in front of toilet 24", the door can swing into that clearance. Our half bath has 2'8" wide at toilet (3'8" at sink) and 34" clearance in front with round toilet or 37" with elongated toilet.

I agree Angela, try a narrower cabinet to left side of the window to balance the other side.

One other thing you could try is having the left bank of cabinets continue on their angled course to die into the wall next to the window.

Since the bumpout will continue all the way down, you may consider taking the wall cabinets all the way to the counter and burying the bumpout completely. (At that end I mean)

Or, what if instead of bumping out the wall there was some kind of opening into the stairwell to contribute to the headroom? Might be interesting, might be weird, but right now its just on paper. (or the computer). Not having a wall right there would contribute about 5" to it.

Angela,
So nice to see you back! That addition of the 1/2 bath is great!

I LOVE my Maytag Gemini. This Thanksgiving there will be a turkey in the full size oven, and mancotti in my "little" oven. My kitchen is not big, but I think the Gemini really adds to its efficiency.

Good luck with your beach house.

Barb

Here's an idea to dress it up. What do you think ? I'm not gonna post all of them on here, but you can see a slideshow of all the ones I came up with here in the photobucket album http://s774.photobucket.com/albums/yy23/angela12345678/BeachCottage/bumpout%20wall/. Everyone voted this one as their favorite at Thanksgiving . . .

# 05

Angela, I like it! Not only does it break the horizontal line at the top, it makes more snese of the glass front on the end because it changes two things, rather than just one.

I sent the new plans to the builder almost a week ago. Eagerly waiting to see if he says I can do the bumpout with the long wall like that. I hope so, I made a list of what to put in the kitchen and have already filled all those cabinets now. I had a new idea this weekend about the fridge recessed area that I am going to send to him as well. Any more thoughts and ideas, critiques or opinions ?

Uh-oh, I hope this 3 pages of threads thing hasn't forced my thread off into never-never land. Odd because it is letting me add a post to it, but it didn't bump it back up. I was trying to keep all of my kitchen stuff in 1 thread rather than start a new thread for every little thing and bumping a lot of other threads off the end of the list.

bump

Hi angela,

I finally caught up. Really nice, no doubt. And #05 is great.

For me, first time to see this thread. I have an old, small beach cottage which has held relatively large groups of 16, sleeping, maybe more. We do not rent it but several family members have keys and just call me to use the cottage. Birthdays, Sweet 16's,etc. I have not yet digested all the wonderful comments here. Yours is a deluxe place. People love beach houses for the view of the water, the boats, the activity. Food is way secondary.

1. Have at least 2 or 3 outside beach showers. (We have 1)
1a. Have 3 hot water heaters or whatever you need for multiple showers. Large intake pipes. Need good pressure.

2. Have most of the seating in the living room face the beach and, if you can, don't obstruct the view with deck chairs. Inside and out, ppl want to stare at the water, for a while, pick up their book, put it down. ABSOLUTELY do not have sofa backs face the water. Create separate seating areas.

3. Ditch the space gobbling fireplace or put it somewhere else but don't compete w/ the view. More seating. We have a fireplace but it's in the center, not the front.
4. Put the game cabinet in the corner of the dining room. Instead, more seating and very small game table. Ppl use the dining table for games, mostly.
5. Our next door neighbors used their cottage and everyone else's for a destination wedding for their daughter. Wedding at the local church, reception at the country club and a weekend of parties at houses surrounding theirs. Beach bonfire. Gatsby? The parties were catered mostly. Caterers can do wonders in not huge kitchens so don't think you have to replicate a catering kitchen. I don't know your area but weddings are quite infrequent.
5. Grilling. You need two grills for large gps. Tables. Infrequent oven use-hot summers and simple meals. We pick up stuff and guests, teens and older, want to try local restaurants. Simple breakfasts, salads, sandwiches, pasta, fruits. Difficult for little kids at crowded restaurants so all are happier w/ home food.
6. We have beds for 17 (7 twin beds, 2 sofabeds, 2 futons) and kids bring sleeping bags.
7. We hosted dd's after prom party and they just want to hang on the beach. 12 best frds and 3 moms.
8. My dil and her friends use the cottage and are way more into food, but they bring a lot of prepared stuff, in coolers during transit.
9. You will have a lot of high storage and I've found that ppl won't use stuff that's hard to get in a crowded k.
They make do with what's accesible. I use disposables but my family uses regular.
10. How close are you to your neighbors? If you are on the beach, and the water sounds drown out neighbors, great. Our houses are close to each other and night time outdoor sounds can be something to think about.
It does sound idyllic and has given us much. Six weeks ago we discovered that critters in the 2 foot tall crawl space chewed up the flexible heating ducts and the repairs were just completed 2 weeks ago. The old ceilings fell in a few years ago. Poison ivy got me twice. Last New y eve, dh and I had to escape quickly before the snowstorm made our high front steps a luge. It's all about the views! Enjoy. Hang loose.

I dont know if anyone mentioned this but the grills should be on the same level as the kitchen, not on a lower level. And on a deck accessible to the kitchen, for platters, food, utensils. Mitts? Grill scrapers?

Angela, I am sorry. I didn't read all the hard working posts but I just shot from the hip.
Just saw that grills on a deck are a no-no. Does everyone comply? We have rules on the books, such as no dogs on beach, but ppl ignore. We have gas, propane, and an extra, full, propane tank on the deck. Extra tank solves maintenance.

The grilling area, on the sand, is 3 levels away from the kitchen? As mentioned by ganggreen, bbtondo and others, need to think about this. SERIOUS! Grilling, as opposed to ovens and casseroles, is, imo, vital to beach living.

You will need at least 2 washers/dryers to wash all those sheets, towels, rugs between groups of renters. There is usually a 3-5 hour window between groups of renters. My cousins actually use sleeping bags on top of the sheets so they don't have to do a lot of laundry on Sundays, when they leave! I do have nice linens. DD and long haired friends would roll out of the shower with a towel on head, one on body, 2 or 3 x a day. Not to mention the beach towels. Eye roll from me to dh!

Definitely, yes, for the elevator. I'd love one. I think a 3 level house in a competetive rental market screams for an elevator, but would renters abuse it? Elevators-more property insurance?

Also, it would be important to check the property tax and assessing in your area. Here's what's going on in ours. When we bought the 1922 cottage in 2002, the prop taxes were $1300. Great. Around 2006, Indiana changed everything and our taxes are $6600 ann. No exemptions for second home owners. I met with the assessors and found that our town is assessed huge sums for every bath and fixture therein, each bedroom, age of property, every inch of concrete outside, beyond imagination.

Some people tear down but keep a portion of original house. People build bunk rooms for kids, rather than walled bedrooms. It's relatively cheap to build half baths but the taxes are awful. We have protested and received a reduction but not much. There is a town wide protest and many houses are actively on the market or would take an offer because of this tax situation.
One family's house, on the beach, large home, has prop taxes of $132,000. Google, "long beach homeowner bill wendt". Town is Long Beach. No matter how affluent, that's just obscene.
Find out how much additional tax the elevator would cost.

It sounds gorgeous. I don't mean to put a damper on your dream house but it's best to go into this armed with real life info. You wisely asked for comments, not only on the kitchen but other areas.

We are in the same dilemma. Design for the masses or one family. This is so difficult. I'll post our plans

Westsider, Thanks for jumping in here !! Your place sounds great. I sure wish I was on your family list. ;)
I also appreciate all of your comments. You have given me a lot to think about. More below to you (and anyone else who wants to comment)...

I really appreciate everyone who is helping me with all of these ideas. Our builder said last week "That new layout looks good, sometimes it takes another set of eyes to see something, especially after you look at something for so long". That's what you guys are doing for me ... being my extra set of eyes and helping me think what is important to different groups of people.

Good news from the builder ... he said yes to the bumpout behind the lower cabinets over the stairs ! That makes design #05 (a few posts up) officially ok from the builder.

1. have 2 or 3 outside beach showers ... do you mean hot & cold showers or just cold for rinsing sand off from beach ? We have planned 1 cold on the walk over the dunes and 1 hot & cold enclosed shower.
2, 3, 4. do you have some ideas for layout in these areas ? Would love to see what you are thinking.
5. weddings are probably not too frequent
6. Grilling - this is an issue. We will not be able to control if people ignore with portable grill, but rules will not allow a built in grill or homeowner provided grill on the deck. We have plans for the ground floor grilling area to be a fun gathering place though with a tiki bar, picnic tables, pingpong and foosball, horseshoes, in addition to the grills. Two grills is great idea !! Good idea also to plan storage for grill tools and mitts near the grills.
9. Will review to make sure stuff stored on high shelves is rarely used stuff. Looking like some of the high shelves will even be empty. Who knows - once it is unpacked, stuff has a way of filling the available space. LOL !!
10. Lot is 50 x 150 ocean front. With 7 foot setbacks for each side of lot, neighbor houses are 14 feet away from each other.
11. two washers & dryers - yep !
12. elevators - will ask about property insurance - a neighbor has an automatic gate operator (which cost a lot extra) and had problems with renters messing up his door and lots of service calls, so he eventually disconnected his auto opener. We know now to not spend extra for the auto opener.
13. your property taxes are outrageous !! Luckily, we are on flat rate here ... approx 1% of home value.

lakehouse, leaving now to go meet a friend for movie, but will check out your plans later. Looks like you are remodeling kitchen for a lakehouse you already own ?

Thanks !! Keep the comments coming on all areas of the home !

Bad news . . . I talked with the inspections department the beginning of January and found out it will be middle of February before we are able to get our building permit. That puts us at needing to complete within 3.5 months or risk losing some or all weeks of summer rentals. We really do not want to be in a stressful building situation like that, and do not want to have to carry the mortgage through the whole of next winter with only a partial summer's worth of rentals, so we have decided to push it back. : (

The good side of this is that we get at least 6 more months to get everything all picked out and be completely ready to go when we start building approx October or November. Then we'll have 6 months to build, and a full month to ourselves before rentals start in June. That gives all my TKO friends SIX MORE MONTHS to suggest changes to the plans. Wheeeeee !!

Angela, thanks for the update!

Advice: Have your tile on site before you start. Buy it now. Really. Well, at least a few months before you break ground. Even American factory made tile. Because of the inventory tax situation they don't always have stock, and just in time delivery for tile isn't ever really in time. (Voice of experience here). Also, order a goodly 10% more than you need, and for individual pieces, if you need one, get two, if you need three, get four.

Sorry you won't be able to get it done this year, but, as you say, it gives you plenty more planning time. :)

hi hopefully u r well on the way to achieving reality. Scanned thru most of this thread. It sounds exciting
A couple of comments on the kitchen area.
-- is any of the area under the stairs recapturable for storage or pantry use? i have seen some clever ones.
-- if it were at all feasible a WALK in pantry is super super nice and the easiest to use espec when you have people unfamiliar with a space...for ex: you can decide to have all food stuffs in kitchen cabs, and most serving and eating ware and large pans etc in the pantry. Makes maintenance etc easy. Or vice versa. or designate one half for each. Then only spices and some important staples stay in cabs
-- we've been in rentals where a nice snapshot of the contents, shelf by shelf, is posted on each cab door so that it is easy to put stuff back in reasonable order. Has been great when 10 or 20 of us gather and you have different crews lending a hand to get clean up done or a meal out.
-- pull out big drawers INSTEAD of double door lower cabinets are easier for spotting contents and access..unless you are putting pull outs behind those double doors.
-- a few feet here and there of open shelving can be good, espec for visitors. For ex They can readily see the coffee tea flour sugar canisters and common kitchen tools can be on a rail or in grab it bins. It isnt as pristine a look but placed strategically away from most lines of sight, can be appreciated for functionality
--- more burners is nice to have...or two separately sited cooktops. Helpful if pancakes or stuff like that are in progress and multiple flap jack flippers are helping
--- have u considered appliance garages and stash some things at counter level in those (Blender, hand mixer, immersion blender). Otherwise some items get chipped pr damaged or shoved into back corners, or worse, separated from their accessories. Problem exists even with large drawers (people just throw stuff in)

Hi bicoastal, Thanks for your comments. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond. I did not realize I had missed a posting. I have been cheating on you guys with a gardenweb gardening forum ... http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/sqfoot/

I would definitely welcome your ideas on how to achieve some of your suggestions as where you would put open shelving, appliance garage, extra cooktop, etc. My pantry area got smaller & smaller with other people's suggestions (and I had to fight to keep what I have, LOL). The stairs idea is great, however, as it is designed right now, there are stairs over stairs, so no unused space available there. In fact, part of the head room over the stairs is a bumpout into the kitchen behind shallow lower cabinets that only look full depth. (See post from Sun, Nov 22, 09 at 15:48 and the before picture from Fri, Nov 20, 09 at 18:01)

I love, love, LOVE the idea of a snapshot of the contents posted on the inside of the cabinet door. I am adding that to my list of things to do right now. And thank you for the reminder of the drawers. I double checked my plans and realized I had not changed to drawers on the cabinet between the stove & oven/micro stack.

Here are some most recent pics ...

Hood was changed to wood at my husband's request. Molding at top of cabinets doesn't show in these 1st two pictures ...

The only pantry space I was left with is the 24" deep cabinet over the built in oven/micro.

Under the counter to left of DW is faked to look full depth but it is not - Lower cabinet is only 15" deep. Behind that is a bumpout for head clearance open to the stairs side with a built in decorative shelf high enough up to still give head clearance. Above the counter it is just like a regular kitchen would be.

Here is the total floor plan of the top floor ...

One thing I would really appreciate in a rental is glass doors on all upper cabinets. We seem to spend the entire time opening cabinets to find things, especially when there are many cooks and helpers in an unfamiliar place. By the time I know where everything is, it's time to leave.

Last chance for any comments/opinions/suggestions ... goes to architect in just a few weeks ! ! ! Latest pictures of the top floor posted one post above. Middle floor has 5 bedrooms, 4.25 baths, laundry, coffee bar. Ground floor is parking under the house (on stilts), storage, shower, tiki bar, grill, picnic tables, and games.