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mrsuggestion

Cabinet quotes

mrsuggestion
12 years ago

I have been to HD, Consumer's, a cabinet manufacturer and a Kitchen & Bath dealer on Long Island. It seems that I cannot get a quote with a breakdown of what each cabinet costs. Does anyone have any recommendations to obtain a detailed quote? I did get a detailed quote from an online dealer, but the total was then reduced by a 63% discount, so I still don't know the true cost of each cabinet. It seems that you either need to place a significant deposit or buy the cabinets before you can get an item-by-item price.

Matt

Comments (58)

  • GreenDesigns
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A single cabinet can take up 10 lines of the order with various codes attached for the different options. It's gobbledy gook for anyone but someone in the trade. Some of my orders have run 40 pages worth of incomprehensible jargon. You don't need a line item comparison. You need a total, and a KD who can tell you how to cut costs if that's what you need.

    Basically, the more elaborate the doorstyle, the more money. Sometimes by as much as 10x the cost in the same line. Thermofoil is the cheapest option in some lines. Oak in a simple door style in another. Oak is the cheapest wood for the same doorstyle, then birch, then maple, then hickory, then alder, then cherry, then paint. Glazing adds costs. Distressing adds costs. Drawer glides are expensive, so adding drawer cabinets cost almost double what a regular cabinet will. Any organizer will also almost double the cost of the cabinet. Some organizers will be about triple what a plain cabinet will be. Tall pantry cabinets cost the most. 8-10x the cost of a plain base cabinet. Moldings are insanely expensive and stacked moldings can be 1/3 of the cost of the entire quote. Same with glass cabinets and other decorative elements.

    Basically, everything you want will be extra. ;) But, the only thing that really counts is how much the total quote ends up being.

  • breezygirl
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting. I love on the opposite coast, but Lowes gave me an itemized quote cab by cab. I couldn't believe the prices of some of the individual pieces. Corner base cabs? Yikes.

  • beaglesdoitbetter1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We got a line-by-line quote from the cabinet maker we went with (Dutch Wood Kitchens Myerstown PA). It had the linear feet of cabinets, the price per linear foot and a total on each line. Every single upgrade from paneled door to custom paint color to feet of crown molding was a separate line item. It was wonderful to have that (especially after the quote from Candelight/Medallion cabinet that just had a total at the bottom and no indication of where that total came from... a total that was WAY over our budget and more than $20,000 more expensive than the way-nicer cabinets we ended up with from Dutch Wood.)

    Now, I did use my own drawings (made in Photoshop) to get my quotes so he didn't have to do CAD drawings to give me that quote (he did them later, of course). We got the quote before we paid a deposit.

    Personally, I wouldn't go w/ any cabinet maker who did not give quotes like that because you don't get to see areas to save (we ordered some of our own inserts and had them sent to Dutch Wood, for example) and because you don't know what you are paying for. We got a "batch quote" from our tile guy which was per room and the whole process has turned out to be a disaster and we can't get rid of them b/c we don't know what the cost was for materials and what the cost is for installation. After that, I'll never have such a big job done w/o a detailed quote again.

  • GreenDesigns
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Transparancy goes both ways. :) You would be much more successful in cabinet shopping if YOU were more transparent with your budget numbers. No KD likes losing a sale and no one likes taking the time to work up a quote for someone who will just walk down the street to someone else if their mystery number in their head isn't met.

    So, what is your budget? What type of look are you trying to achieve? What are your "musts, wants, and would be nice to haves"? There are dozens more questions that are all an important part of getting a good fit with a cabinet line, but focusing soley on price doesn't get you there. Walking into a showroom and asking for a quote is the absolute worst possible way of selecting cabinets! You're not buying a car. A car is super simple compared to a cabinet quote! It's more like you are spec'ing out a complete house, and if you just go around asking for a 3000 square foot brick house, you're going to be super frustrated at the responses. You either have to 100% speak the language and ask for a quote by nomenclature, with the 47 pages of technospeak in a document, or you have to be a lot more general about the end product first, and then price third or fourth. You WILL end up with those 47 pages of documents from the cabinets company when you purchase your cabinets.

    To have a successful renovation, you have to have a lot more give and take. Choose a pro who represents a wide variety of lines and whom you feel comfortable with. If you do that first and then worry about getting a match with your secret number, you are far more likely to get the kitchen that is in your head to exist in your space and reach your budget goals.

    After all, we all want a sale. But we also want a happy customer! And you are setting yourself up to be an unhappy customer, if you aren't already there.

  • lascatx
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's not just bottom line, but as pointed out, you can get lost in so many pages of detail. You can also get lost in playing a numbers game rather than focusing on what you want in the finished product and your priorities in getting there. You do need to know choices are most important to you, what you are willing to spend to get there and what things you are willing to forgo to get the budget and then, as suggested, work with someone you can talk to candidly about how to get the most for your plan and needs. That's a two-way street. You need to be able to say "this is what I need, this is what I want and some of this would be nice if I can swing it -- now how close can I get and where are my cost cutting decisions?" Playing 20 questions like it seems you are may never get you where you want to go. If that's the only way you can get info from someone, I'd move on -- but you have to tell them what you are trying to accomplish and give them a chance to work with you or it is likely to be just as frustrating on their end.

  • mrsuggestion
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Again, thank you for your replies. Please explain why several posters were able to obtain line item quotes, but not here on Long Island. Of course we have wants, must- haves, and would-be-nice categories. However, if the would-be-nice option adds cost that we consider to be not worth it, we can then choose to do without it or select something else. I would like my next car to have heated seats, but if I feel the cost of that option is excessive, I can live without it. I know approximately what the total cabinet cost will be, but I want to understand what each one of my options are costing versus how much we want it. We thought the matching interior in the uppers would be nice, but at $100-120 per cabinet, guess what? We'll live without it. Now I may use that saving on a specialty cabinet or some glass doors. Oh wait, I don't know how much extra the glass doors are!

    Matt

  • live_wire_oak
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Think of it as buying a new computer. Unless you are in the field, you don't even want to be able to spec out that it will use X case, and Y power supply, and Z fan. All you really care about would be the "top tier" choices, such as which processer and maybe which graphics card it contains. You do a bit of investigating, and decide that Compaq, Dell, and HP are your top contenders based on their reputation and your casual perusing of those top tier options that you are interested in. Then you talk to their reps, and tell them about how you use your computer and what you want it to be able to do for you and they make a personal build sheet of a model that suits your needs and give you a price. You see that you get a faster graphics card with the HP, but the processor speed is faster with the Compaq and both are the same price. The Dell comes in Peacock Blue for that extra $80, and you really can see that sitting on your kitchen table, despite the fact that the graphics and video aren't quite what the other two offer. All three are complete overkill for how you really use a computer, but you want to make sure you are getting the best choice for the money you are willing to spend.

    Don't get caught up in the minutia to the detriment of the big picture. You're choosing to make an adversarial competition out of something that should be collaborative!

  • RRM1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have a very close friend in Santa Barbara that is a custom cabinet maker that builds almost exclusively there and Malibu. Needless to say, these are very high-end jobs. Most builders don't charge by the box, but bid by linear feet for uppers and lowers. Then doors and drawers are added separately. Any additional things like scribing and particular finishes are nominal add-ons.

    So, as a guess-timate in your area look at $160-180 per foot of uppers and the same for lowers. About $100-120/door or drawer. Then Installation should be about $100/box plus mileage costs. Everything else is minor.

  • lascatx
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I understand what you are saying, but it may not be that easy. Just like with a car or a computer, some choices may come with or drive other options. You really need to look at what it is you need, want, would be nice and prioritize in terms of both looks and function. Then go seeking the best you can do according to that list and your budget.

    If a quote is too high, ask how you can keep a, b, and c and try to put the cost at $x. Let that person work for you. It may not be matching interiors or glass doors, it might be switching this door style for one that looks nearly identical and changing this crown to that one or even ordering the doors without glass and installing it yourself (seriously, Brookhaven had two door styles I could hardly tell apart and one was a lot more than the other -- maybe 30%). You might also be able to save money buy installing glass in the doors yourself. For me, it was about the same to order a simple glass in the stacked uppers as to order then glass ready, so I got the glass already installed. For my hutch, I wanted something special and saved a lot having leaded glass panels custom made and installed over the options available through the cabinet maker and they were more personal to me.

    You won't know those things from pages of line by line -- you have to know the options you don't see as well. It frustrated the heck out of me that you couldn't sit down with the Sears & Roebuck catalog of kitchen cabinet choices and work it all out, but most folks (including me) would probably make a mess of it (leave out this and have the wrong one of those, etc.) and might never find the right options for pulling together what they want. Again, this is where the folks should earn your business and you should be able to have a relationship where you can work together to accomplish what you want and need. You are going to pay for their "expertise" whatever that may be. You might as well find someone you can work with and trust and use it.

  • live_wire_oak
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Hey, RRM1, if you're talking low end cabinetry with just a few choices available, your prices are ballpark. If you're talking medium end to high end, you're ridiculously low. Most kitchens I do end up in the $400-$500 per linear foot range, and that's medium end variety cabinets. For high end work, you'd double that price at least. In some lines, doubling it wouldn't get you anywhere at all. Yet, in each case, the homeowner ends up with functional cabinets. It's all about knowing where you want to end up and how you want to travel. You can get to Florida driving a Smart Car just like you would if you were driving a Mercedes 500SL or taking an Amtrak train . The trip experience and time will be different, but you'll get there the same!

  • coco4444
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I totally agree with you OP. I actually wanted to sit down at the big box stores with the catalog, and price everything out individually. Yes, some people would be daunted by the details, but it's a laugh to say consumers don't understand when we need a finished edge, etc. When you get as TKO as some people on this forum, we tend to *point out* things that the store people miss... especially if it's a DIY or big box service.

    I finally persuaded both Lowes and HD to give me the cabinet breakdown using the cabinet codes... plus the Thomasville catalog (available online) give the codes of the cabinets (ie: BCC36) so I just compared those. The thing I also learned with that catalog were the range of *sizes* cabinets came in... resulting in me doing a base corner 39x36 instead of a 36x36 with a 3" filler. No designer suggested that... and it which bought me a larger opening to my corner cab.

    I wanted to know how to maximize my efficiency (ie: would I be better off getting 1xB36 + 1xB15, or 1xB45. It also let me know that fancy things like a 6" pullout was not a great use of my budget ($1800 with all the hardware... I could get 3 full cabinets for that!). Doors vs. drawers, size of microwave shelf, etc. Not everyone has a definite budget that they want to share with a salesperson/designer... I was willing to splurge or compromise for/on things depending on their value to me.

    Unforuntately I got rid of my calculations after I ordered my kitchen, plus I'm in Canada so it might not compare to NY. Keep perstering, and maybe you'll get it. Or just ask for a peek at those books they keep behing the desk at the big box stores!

  • pudgybaby
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I totally agree with the OP and Co-Co. Co-Co has it exactly right - while most probably don't care about the details, some of us are very detailed, numbers oriented people and we want EVERY detail. Co-Co gave a great example with the corner cabinet. Some KDs are great and would have found that extra 3 inches and a bigger opening, but most are just going to stick a normal 36x36 corner susan there with 3 inches of filler (I also have an asymmetrical corner susan).

    I was able to get a line-item quote only from an online outfit. And, yes, in the end they took 60-some percent off of the total, but that still allowed me to price each cabinet separately. They also told me how much toe kick drawers were, and any question about specific pricing I had.

    I ended up going with a custom cabinet maker. He didn't tell me every price, but when I was considering options and trying to get the price down, he could give me a very close price. One way he helped me reduce the price by combining drawers (and therefore reducing the total number of drawers, making them more functional in the process because they were larger). A good KD is invaluable. You need to find one that 'gets' you.

    Kind of OT, but what really ticked me off was the glaze up-cost on diamond cabinets. It was 12% (I think - close) on the whole order. So, if I ordered a base cabinet with three drawers vs. the same size one with one drawer and two doors, I was charged more for the glaze because the drawer cabinet costs more. The glazing cost should be pretty much the same for those two cabinets. The KD that did that quote told me that that's how pretty much all of them price out glazing. Stupid, IMHO.

    Sorry I can't help with the original question, but I also wouldn't assume that you will ever get the individual prices, even if you pay for the cabinets. I didn't, although maybe I could have requested it. By then, I didn't care anymore, because the design was final and I was happy with the price - I was where GreenDesigns mentioned.

    I'm not sure I believe that $100/cabinet for the matching veneer interior. That seems quite high. But it's hard to know for sure, isn't it?

  • breezygirl
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One thing I forgot to mention above is that my Lowes has pricing listed on their cab displays. Open a 18" upper and there's a price inside. Open a 27", 3 drawer stack, there's a price inside.

  • joaniepoanie
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Beaglesdoitbetter......would you mind sharing a ballpark figure on price of your cabinets from Dutch Wood?.....style and how many? I feel like I've missed an opportunity to explore Dutch Wood.... GC referred us to cabinet distributor and we are about to place order...he has been great so I would feel horrible not giving him the business but can't help wondering how much we might save at Dutch Wood......thanks

  • KitchenCabinetKings
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As a Sales Manager/KD at several cabinet dealers in both NY and NJ, I can tell you that ownership instructs their employees to not give item lists or floor-plan to their customers. The simple reason is to hide their work to make it as difficult as possible for customers to price shop their numbers. Most retail showrooms and home centers inflate their cabinet prices due to high overhead costs which is why they refuse to release item lists. I was never a fan of this type of business practice and it certainly caused many uncomfortable confrontations with customers who simply wanted to know what specific items they were being quoted.

    When I opened my online cabinet store, I made it a point to create a transparent buying process, clearly listing the price of each individual item on our website. Customers are able to price shop different door styles, play with options, and re-configure their layouts to fit any budget. The customer feedback has been phenomenal and I believe the industry would benefit as a whole if more brick and mortar stores adopted this policy.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Cabinet Kings

  • beaglesdoitbetter1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not a problem joaniepoanie. We are paying a total of $34,680 for our kitchen. All 3/4 maple plywood, domestic. We designed the door ourself from a collection of different doors they had.

    My kitchen is very large (53 feet of cabinets including a 13 foot island) and includes a lot of fancy details (custom color match, three piece crown molding w/ rope around whole kitchen including breakfast nook, mirrored panels on the fridge and additional cabinet, all glass uppers, all deep drawers w/ full extension, soft close on every cabinet and drawer, pull out trash modified to work w/ foot pedal meant for frameless cabinets, tons of corbels and carvings and appliques, all custom inserts, multiple pull-out work surfaces, an island bumped up to accommodate hidden silverware drawers, furniture feet, pull out spice racks and more that I can't even remember).

    I cannot begin to recommend Dutch Wood highly enough. They are doing cabinets in every single room of my house, from the pantry to the conservatory to the dog room to the closets. Every single thing they have done thus far as been exquisite, especially things that are difficult to do like blue stained and gray stained cabinets and achieving an even stain. They never said no to any request, just figured out a way to make things work. They were responsive, timely, got back to emails right away, and are doing all of the installation w/ me being 5 1/2 hrs. away without one single problem.

    Feel free to email me off list if you would like and I will send you the detailed proposal that I received so you can see the exact breakdown in cost (it's about 3 pages long).

  • joaniepoanie
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you
    BDIB! Your kitchen is going to be gorgeous! I now know I could save a lot with Dutch Wood and just sorry I didn't know about them sooner as they are only about 2 hours from me. DH says we are committed to local guy. I don't mind giving him the business--a small, family operation and they have been a pleasure to work with, but certainly would be nice to save $$......thanks again!

  • dilly_ny
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Matt, as a fellow Long Islander, I share your frustration. I feel that I want to know what certain options are costing me, i.e. glazing, glass doors, molding, corbels, drawer base vs. standard base, etc. so I can make decisions - on an item by item basis- about whether that option is worth it to me. For example, when I recently found out that Medallion charges $500 for a corbel, I decided that it was not worth it to me. I have not been able to get any idea of pricing for what I consider options. It is absurd to price out Medallion silverline and Plain and Fancy and get a price higher for the Silverline. It is absurd that the sales people prefer to price out an entire layout instead of giving you a lineal foot price as a starting point. I think these retail kitchen shops are sneaky and purposely making it all a big mystery. I agree with CAbinet Kings "The simple reason is to hide their work to make it as difficult as possible for customers to price shop their numbers. "

  • _sophiewheeler
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most cabinet spec books run to the many hundreds of pages. If you combine the available door styles with the available wood species and the available finish choices, you are talking over 1200 different possible combinations. A "simple" 24" base cabinet has over 240 different possibilities in configuration alone before you get into the door style and color choices. Each one of those choices impacts price. We do not have a "price list" as it would be bigger than the spec book. 20/20 computerization tells us what the cabinet costs after we program in the variables. We have to plug in a whole new set of variables every time a customer wants a price for something. You want a price with plywood instead of particle board? Give me 2 minutes to reinput that variable? You want plywood just on the sink cabinet? Give me 10 minutes to input that. Changed your mind on the doorstyle? 3 minutes of work. You want one style on the perimeter and another on the island? 40 minutes of work to change that island out. You want to change out that 42" cabinet to a 20" and a 12"? More work.

    You can have a KD who will spend all of the time in the world with you changing every single available variable until you are comfortable. But that's not going to happen in any initial quote situation. An initial meeting is exactly that. It's trying to decide if the cabinet line and KD will work for you. Do you click. Are their cabinets able to get you the look that you want. Maybe an hour of free consult time is involved.

    You have to decide post meeting if you want to explore your choices further with that line. If so, then pay the deposit, get your space professionally measured, and start the real design process. But, don't expect hours worth of free work to come your way that you will just price shop around. We don't work for free. You have to commit to at least paying a deposit.

    If you want a quick and easy way of price shopping a line, then it's best to NOT use a design of your kitchen. Pick out 4 cabinets, say a 36" pot and pan drawer that has a finished edge on one side, (choose a skin edge, as that's the most translatable across lines). Make sure they price full extension drawers. Add in an 18" top mount trash can with 2 cans in it, no finished sides. That's also fairly translatable across lines. Then add in a 36"x30" butt wall cabinet with finished interior and prepped for glass. (Glass costs vary tremendously across lines, but prepping for glass is fairly standard.) Add in a 24"x36" wall cabinet with both sides finished off with skins. Not all lines offer 36" high cabinets, so you will have to wing it if they don't. Add in a standard 3"x30" filler, a 8' stick of tall crown molding (also variable across lines) and 1 8' toekick (wood, not vinyl). That gives you a mix of items and doesn't overwhelm a KD if you want to compare a few variables like door styles. You now have a basic idea of how to compare the different costs of the different lines without trying to become too time consuming and complex for either you or the KD.

  • mrsuggestion
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great responses. For KitchenCabinetKing: your approach is refreshing, but only satisfies one part of the process. I would still like to be able to view the cabinets in a full kitchen layout. Where are your cabinets manufactured? Some people are missing my point. I'm not interested in shopping from place to place to compare pricing. I'd like to work with one place, but with a reasonable understanding of what each of my options approximately cost. I don't have a hard budget for the cabinets, but have a ballpark for the overall kitchen renovation. If I have to spend 2-3 thousand more for certain features that make sense value-wise, I'll do it. Just let me know how the total cost is derived, so I can make informed decisions. I'd also have no problem paying an hourly fee for this process.

    Matt

  • _sophiewheeler
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, then if you want a relationship and not a one night stand, you kinda have to commit to being monogamous! Stop dating around and settle down.

  • sandy808
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am the same way in that I want detailed quotes as well. The company arrived at that figure somehow! I have found in my search that there has been extreme dishonsty along the way to getting quotes. If a company is not willing to give detailed numbers, they are not honest in my opinion.

    Boxes cost a certain amount. Adding certain features is "x" dollars" on top of that. Trim is an additional cost.

    Another example of where certain companies will inflate costs but make a customer think they are getting a deal has been in the log home industry. There was one in North Carolina that refused to give us the price of logs and tongue and groove by the foot, which is how the lumber is priced, and will be quoted by any honest log home company. They charged "x" dollars" for the "kit". We already knew what the pricing generally was, but were testing this company to see if we wanted to do business with them. We did not. We bought the materials from a local log home business and saved half of the inflated "kit" costs.

    The same thing happens in the cabinet industry. An honest business will break the costs down if the customer wants. You can still go into it saying what your budget is, start with the bare bones, and be pleasantly surprised if you have money left over for the wonderful details. Think about it. How did they arrive at that figure? So they must have a breakdown of the items. If not, they're charging a huge inflated price if they can't answer that question.

    Since when is it not O.K. for a customer spending thousands of dollars wanting to know where the money is actually going?!

    Sandy

  • abfabamy
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Matt, do you have a Lowe's near you?

    I shopped around with quotes before ordering my cabinets at 6 places. Lowe's was the only one that gave me a detailed, per item, quote everytime I went in. Their willingness to provide me with that level of detail is why I went with them in the end.
    I, too, preferred to pour over each item and decide what I could do without or include based on where I felt my $$ would be better utilized.
    I don't understand how other posters can say the total is all you need. Maybe I'm a control freak, but I prefer to make a much more informed decision on where my hard earned dollars are being allocated!

  • chiefy
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I'm not interested in shopping from place to place to compare pricing. I'd like to work with one place, but with a reasonable understanding of what each of my options approximately cost."

    And THIS you should be able to do. Once you settle on a KD it should be a collaborative process. You may not get the $x for every cabinet, but you should get an understanding of drawers cost more than pullouts but you can skip the lazy susan to fund glass doors type of discussion.

  • lascatx
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The first line of the OP indicated this was the kicking tires stage. The responses you are getting are responding to that. I'd also suggest that it would be good to continue in that phase until you have decided on a line and a person you are comfortable working with and then dealing with detail issues. Any person who sees you kicking tires is not going to want to spend line by line time with you and you would be silly to commit to a person or a source based on the sole criteria of getting a line by line. Again, decide what you need, have a list of wants and extras and THEN figure out how to get there.

  • Circus Peanut
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What I'm hearing here is that cabinet companies own proprietary computer software that calculates all the variables, and that the customer is not allowed access to that software, but is expected to pay for the labor to run it. I'm not honestly sure how to think about that.

    I wouldn't really want to pay someone to enter a bunch of variables into a software interface that I could (and would rather) use myself -- as an educated consumer and web coder -- but I would be more than happy to pay a KD well for what they're highly educated to provide: actual kitchen design advice.

    I think I'd be unhappy that the two things are conflated into one service, at least in the model described in this thread. Perhaps KDs shoot themselves in the foot by focusing on the former and not the latter?

  • beaglesdoitbetter1
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is one of the things I strongly disliked about the first "KD" I went to. I told him what I wanted my kitchen to look like and I had detailed drawings and it took him 4 months to get me a quote and the quote was $40,000 over the budget he knew we had and it was a line item at the bottom with NO information about where that total came from.

    When he sent it, he knew we were over budget and he said he was going to make suggestions on how to cut it but we'd have to make compromises.

    That, to me, was about the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life. Here's an idea. Tell me what each item costs so I can make suggestions about where to cut. It's my kitchen. Why should a KD figure out where to cut costs to get to a finished product I want instead of letting ME cut costs to get to a finish product that I want, since I am the person who best knows what something is worth to me.

    I can't understand what the problem is with someone saying: here is what you will be charged for the base price per foot of cabinets. Here's the cost for the glaze. Here's the cost for the drawers, etc. etc. And then you can see, line for line, what each upgrade or addition or add-on that you want costs.

    If you have no idea of what you want, fine, then maybe getting exact pricing isn't possible. But once you have a basic plan for a kitchen and you know what you want it to look like, in my mind there is no justification at all for a cabinet salesperson not outlining what each of those different desired elements cost.

  • aries61
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Most if not all the companies use 20/20 software. Yes, It does calculate the price and yes it does print out a detail for the cabinets. Unfortuanately most places don't want to give you the detail with the prices.

    What I find funny is that some of the places have signs stating "we won't be undersold" but, you need to bring them a detailed quote, but they won't give you one. They expect you to get one from another place though.

    Also, some places that will give you a detail quote such as Lowes and HD have the cabinets with a putchase price already discounted in the detail. Others will give you a list price of each of the cabinets, but show a discount such as 50% as a seperate line item. In that case you can take the individual prices and apply the discount to arrive at the individual cabinet price.

    I refuse to buy from a place that won't give me a detail listing of the individual prices sometime in the purchasing process. I had a kitchen place argue with me when they asked how there price compared to others that I received when I told them they were the highest of everyone and they included furniture board construction while the others were plywood construction with lower prices. This was for the same cabinet line with the same door and finsih. Go figure.

  • live_wire_oak
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    20/20 design software is the standard used in the industry. It was developed in conjunction with cabinet manufacturers. It is both a design software which contains the spec books of the various lines that you may work with and it's also a pricing software. You change a variable in the design portion, and that automatically changes the pricing as input from the manufacturer. That's a lot easier than doing a manual calculation for every item, but it's also less flexible for the customer to be able to compare pricing. It doesn't give you a + 14% variable for the glazing upcharge so much as it figures the price for that 36" base super susan cabinet is $1000 in a standard finish, and when you change the variable to the upgraded glaze charge, it's $1140. The pricing and specs are straight from the cabinet manufacturer that you picked. You cannot do a "generic" design and then input that design into various manufacturers without a WHOLE lot of hassle. Especially since each cabinet manufacturer has items that won't translate at all to another cabinet manufacturer. This is a major reason that KDs are not terribly forthcoming with "line item" pricing. It's not really available to them until a design is finalized and printed out.

    There are so many variables that go into pricing just a single cabinet. It takes a lot of time. Time is money. I want your business, but I'm not going to spend hours on end working up variations of your design without some assurance that I'll be compensated for it. If you want a ballpark figure, sure I'll take the time away from my other clients who have already retained my services and talk to you about your pricing and the general ballpark it might be in. If you have a list of specific cabinets, I can utilize the quick input mode and give you a price as long as you understand that it is divorced from any design and will probably be higher once the needed tweaks take place. But, I already have paying clients who are expecting me to use my time to give them results, and no matter how much I'd like to do your project, if you're not ready to pay a retainer and become one of my paying clients, then I won't be able to give you highly detailed information.

  • jscout
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's my 2 cents, and hopefully it'll save you a lot more than that. NEVER divulge your budget to ANY cabinet shop. Each time I did, the quotes miraculously came in right at my budget +/- $500, if that. Every time I kept that info to myself, the quotes came back at $1500-$3000 less than my budget, with the exception of two custom cabinet makers. One came back at my budget and the other blew it out of the water. The only time I divulged my budget were to 3 places I trusted because someone was known there either by me or a close friend or relative. So much for trust. I wrote them off right away.

    That said, it is up to you to go into these shops having a firm knowledge on the price of cabinets and what things to expect in your budget. Go in with YOUR design. That way none of them can say you stole it from them. I went in as an educated consumer and felt no guilt keeping my numbers to myself. What I showed them was my design and all they did was copy and redraw it for quote purposes. As I said, I did my part to educate myself through GW and just casual info gathering before I had a design I liked. All the cabinet shops were "impressed" that I knew my stuff and were comfortable with providing me with a quote without asking my budget. I made sure they knew I was serious and wasn't wasting their time. Plus, I made their job easy.

    I don't know if it was how I approached it or whatever, but I was able to get itemized quotes. Not surprisingly, none of the dealers I gave my budget to gave me any details. I was able to get details from HD, Lowes, Ikea, Cabico, Schrock, Country Craftsman. All of these came in at or under my budget, without knowing my budget.

    So how do you go about educating yourself? Well, start with HD, Lowes and Ikea for sure. These guys are there for you. That's how they work. Use them as a baseline and go from there. The nice part is they're friendly and always helpful even if they're not really qualified or experienced. This is where you can get an idea of where your budget needs to be for what you want in cabinets. Most of us start off with an unrealistically low budget because we see ads and flyers of low-priced/cheap stuff, and that includes the Ikea catalog. Regardless of what you can afford, the budget needs to be realistic.

    Then graduate to the kitchen sales of local lumber yards. I'm lucky that I have National Lumber, Cape Cod Lumber and Chace near me. They all have no obligation kitchen consultants like HD and Lowes, but are generally more knowledgeable. At this point, I was confident enough to hit cabinet shops with enough knowledge to talk their language and enough to continue building that knowledge.

    In the end, I chose a custom cabinet maker who gave me everything I wanted and then some for my budget. Did I save any money? No, because I set a realistic budget and I spent it. What I got in return was a lot of value. My cabinets are easily worth more than what I paid.

  • KitchenCabinetKings
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @mrsuggestion - We offer free kitchen designs utilizing 20/20 interior design software. Simply submit your measurements on our website and we will provide the 3D renderings via email along with a complete item list. Our cabinets are manufactured in China, assembled, inspected and shipped out of our warehouse locations in New Jersey and South Carolina. All of our cabinets are KCMA certified and CARB Phase 2 compliant against harmful emissions including formaldehyde.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Kitchen Cabinet Kings Design Service

  • mtpam2
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with the OP and those who would like an itemized quote. My total kitchen remodel is a budget mostly DIY job, but I would like to get the best possible cabinets for my money. I have a lot of wants after spending time on this forum, but know that I will have to pick and choose carefully as I can't have them all. In fact, I may be lucky to have any. I have already expanded my (unrealistically) low original budget for cabinets by 50%. This will impact other areas of my kitchen and I want to get the best quality cabinets I can.

    You suggest that we need to commit to buying from someone before we can expect to get help to tweak our options and costs, but how can you choose who to commit to if you can't do a fair comparison? You may have a couple lines you think are pretty comparable in quality. The same options in each line may not be the same cost. Maybe some are needs, and some are wants, but of varying importance. If you knew that Line A cost X and Line B cost XX for each option, you could make a better informed choice. They wouldn't have to be exact quotes, but even knowing the % of markup for going to all plywood, or getting glazing, or changing the type of doors, or going to drawer bases instead of regular bases would help greatly.

    I know it isn't that simple, and there always seems to be a special sale going on, or a tier level price reduction to consider as well, but as the consumer, I find the lack of individual pricing information frustrating.

  • GreenDesigns
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "No advertising is allowed in any of the forums."

    That is part of the terms of service here. Participation from pros is great, but not if they cannot READ THE TERMS OF PARTICIPATION that are linked every time you post.

    KitchenCabinetKings, that means no active solicitation in your posts, and no linking to your commercial website. In case you missed the rules, they are linked below.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Terms of Service for Businesses Participating in Forums

  • pudgybaby
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, live_wire_oak, for that description of how pricing is done and how complicated it is. It aligns with my experience (I think ALL of the KDs used 20/20, and they weren't thrilled at changing cabinet lines in a design but changing to plywood construction was no biggie). It seems that the focus of 20/20 is the design end of things rather than the pricing, which is great for the designers but not for consumers.

    So what is the best approach for those who value price and function over form? When I went into a kitchen store with several lines of cabinetry, I wanted quotes for the 2 or 3 of them that seemed to match my budget and have the features that I was looking for. I was always told to pick a door and finish first, but for me that was not most important as long as there were a few door styles that I was ok with. I was so tired of the lack of function and storage in my dinky kitchen, so that was my focus. I made that clear, but every time I was told to pick a door style. That must be the first input into 20/20, I guess. I just wish one of the KDs had explained to me what LWO did. I'm not sure how it would have changed the process, but at least I would have understood why providing the 3 different cabinet line quotes was not easy.

    I still don't understand why the glazing upcharge can't be done on a square foot of door & drawer basis, which seems obvious to me.

  • sandy808
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree with not giving a budget amount initially to anyone trying to profit from you. I've had the experience of the same kitchen coming in at that dollar amount (or more) versus not giving them a set price to start charging me. I've tested this out, and in both cases was evaded when asking for a breakdown.

    If the cabinet business is honest, you will get a breakdown upon request. If they are honest the quote is already based on this and not "extra labor". If they are shady they hide it and are in many cases charging an inflated price they do not want you to see.

    Shopping around involves some "tire kicking". I've had prices for the same layout vary by several thousand dollars, based on all things being equal. One custom person gave me a quote and then a week later the same layout was suddenly $20,000 more. No breakdown was given. I ran. Home Depot also pulled that. I ran. I do not subscribe to the train of thought that takes my rights as a consumer to know exactly what I am buying. I'm the one in charge here, not the person who wants to get my business.

    I do not do business with anyone who is reluctant or refuses to break down the costs of what I am purchasing. Ever. Search until you find the right person.

    Sandy

  • Marjorie Bull
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I do not do business with anyone who is reluctant or refuses to break down the costs of what I am purchasing." Sandy, you are SO RIGHT!!!

    I'm in the middle of the remodeling right now. Loewe's wouldn't even enter my drawing in their system; they wanted their guy to come out and measure, and then they'd do it, after a $100 deposit. I've taught CAD for 20 years, and I know a thing or two about measuring a room. I ran like the devil was on my tail.

    Menards had a sweet young thing doing KD who couldn't read the dimensioned drawing I brought in, couldn't convert 4' to 48" without a calculator, and told me they didn't have a blind-corner cabinet which I proceeded to find in her catalog for her. I did not buy from her design. She did, however, give me a detailed printout, along with several 3D visualizations I assured her I neither needed nor wanted....

    A different Menards store and a different KD and I've got pretty much what I wanted, except that my organizing pro told me to go in and get the KD to show me all the lovely options, and none of the KD people (except at Loewe's) even knew what was available, or cared about anything apart from chatting w/ friends on their cell phones. I was a real pain of an interruption to their social lives. (Southwest of Chicago, in case any managers are reading this.)

    The cabinets are here, mostly in, and they are gorgeous, even nicer than I anticipated. My only gripe is that they are drilled 2" apart for the adjustable shelves (I'd prefer 1 or 1.5) and the holes are not continuous through the entire height of the cabinet but only in groups of 3 or 4 where the manufacturer thinks they ought to be. Unfortunately, this does not accommodate all sizes of cereal boxes and other food packages on whichever shelf where the cook might wish to put them.

    Bottom line: LEARN EVERYTHING YOU POSSIBLY CAN BEFORE YOU GO SHOPPING, and don't let anyone tell you what you want. It's your money, you tell them what to spend it on. You will be lucky if it turns out that the KD knows more than you. So be prepared. And YES YOU CAN get a detail drawing and price list. If you can't, take your business elsewhere.

  • aliris19
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Buehl, I think this thread should get sticked!

    Very impressive. There are some amazing rants and lectures in here. That's meant as a compliment....

    For the record, I agree with the OP but do understand the difficulties so articulately laid forth by the pros on here. Bottom line is - this is a complicated business, designing and making, both. Together - it's really, really hard.

    There is a bizarre price structure going on with the expectation of KDs who have to sell cabinet lines and donate their time in an effort to "hook" you on their trustworthiness. That's a lot of internal inconsistency. There's an adversarial relationship there cloaked in artistry and friendship -- very strange, very problematic.

    The point's been made in many ways the 2-way nature of the setup and/or mistrust. I think in the end, in general, it's in the retailers' best interest to obscure the process whereby cost is generated, and in the consumers' best interest to uncover it. period. You are what you are, and we live in a capitalistic society. Push for what is important to you, and understand that others' perspective will be different from yours. The nature of compromise is finding a way to give in one arena so that you might take in another. I think that just has to be the end of the story here as well.

    If obtaining line itemization of your cabinets is important to you, then push for it until you get it; clearly it can be done. But there are other ways of coming to mutually acceptable terms.

    I agree it's obnoxious, and I love the use of that term and the way the OP writes: wonderful language-use. But I think the situation is inherent: call it the Capitalist Condition. There are other ways of conducting business, but by and large we don't opt for them in America. Elsewhere on this continent, sometimes. Across the globe - definitely. It's part of the reason, of course, that a "good deal" is to be had from the Pennsylvania Dutch: different culture, different expectations and satisfactions.

    Anyway, I love this thread. Note that most people on this forum seem to know more than most KDs I have encountered at least. So neu - I often know more about a product than a retailer I tangle with. It certainly is infuriating to pay them for me to do their job which wouldn't have been done at all in my absence.

    It's a creepy industry with fine citizens present: thank you live_wire, and green_designs, and the many, many many other knowledgeable, generous, kind professionals who lend so much, for free, to this forum. Unfortunately you-all are exceptions to a rule I'm beginning to suspect, that states designers just aren't your friend. They're there to lift your money in as short order as possible. I know that can't be right, there have to be many engaged in an honest give-and-take. But I think some of the generalities laid out here might help in discerning them.

  • CEFreeman
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow. I'm essentially indigent so every penny I spend has to be saved for a very long time and very carefully considered.

    Over the last 3 years I've ended up ordering a couple of base drawer cabinets thru DirectBuy (Norcroft) and got a serious breakdown for each one.

    I later went online and ordered 3 base cabinets from someone whose name escapes me, but I got another, complete breakdown. Brian from (that company) was FANTASTIC and we worked together via phone and email very well.

    All my uppers and standard bases I'm building myself. I have built roughly 494 liniar feet of cabinets pretty much floor to ceiling. (Yes, I sat here and added up the feet.)

    Of course, you could also price them one at a time, get all your details then add them up.

    You all say you're pricing cabs here and there, but are you remembering to price apples to apples? (Thank you, Hollysprings!) If your'e not, no wonder there are a zillion different prices. Some include details others don't obviously, but if you push, at the prices you're consenting to pay? I agree that I wouldn't go with anyone who didn't have the time to answer these simple questions. I know some see a woman coming alone and the prices magically inflate wayyyy too much -- until they hear I know what I'm talking about. i.e. an educated consumer is their worst nightmare.

    Or you can do what I'm doing... just build 'em yourself.

    You know that commercial where the wife says the guy speaks in strange languages while attempting home improvement? Then at the end his confidence has improved so much that he's going to try something with the chain saw? Well....

    Imagine me, a 5'2" 50 year old woman standing on a drywall bucket waving a router, sawsall, circular saw, drill, and hammer in the air (yes, with that many arms), holding a tape measure under her chin, clenching the level with her knees, with screw drivers sticking out of her hair like the statue of Liberty, yelling "YEAH! I GOT IT!! I GOT IT!!" And that would be me. And I know exactly what I paid for each and every cabinet.

    Ah HA! Sorry. Just random thoughts while reading this interesting, frustrated thread.

  • detroit_burb
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Mrsuggestion,
    What cabinet brand do you want?

    If you know what brand you want, you can generally find the retail price book by diligent googling. The retail prices are not proprietary. From there, you should know that big box stores will "discount" at least 20% from there, but if you go to the manufacturer web site and look for distributors you will find hardware stores that will be willing to order for you at about 50-60% off retail. The big box stores know this and do not want to give you the itemized list because you can just take that list to a small place and get a better price.

    Each side panel, filler strip, toe kick, piece of molding, etc has an different item number. each type of "box" has a different item number. you can put an order together yourself from the retail price book, and it will take hours and hours without the manufacturer's layout software, but it can be done.

  • joaniepoanie
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think if you want a detailed quote, you should certainly get it. I did not bother. My contractor recommended two kitchen places and they each carried different cabinet lines. He sent them our drawings and I got one quote from one and 3 quotes from the other. I never said what my budget was, only that I wanted a decent mid range line....no low end builder stuff, but house/neighborhood did not warrant high end either. There ended up being a $ 2,000 spread between the highest and the lowest. We chose the cabinets we wanted and worked with a small,independent, family run dealer in business for 25 years. Cabinet company was running a sale Which would have saved us $700. But just as we were ready to place order at the end of Sept. got a call from dealer Dave that they were running a better sale in October so we waited a week and another $60 was knocked off. Bottom line....if you work with an established, reputable dealer you can trust their quotes. I doubt he is making thousands off me, but he is entitled to a profit and I don't begrudge him that. After all, you don't stay in business for 25 years by ripping people off.

  • cabmanct
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I suspect there are two conversations going on here.I am a custom cabinetmaker, I did not get into this business to compete with kraftmaid, loews, home depot brookhaven etc.
    They have their place and that place is " pricing by the foot".

    I do very detailed high end architectural work. What we sell is our time and expertise. A true craftsman charges for the time he spends on each part. Not by the foot.

    Charging by the foot is for the lazy, how much is a car, I mean they are priced by the foot right? A bmw & a ford right, they are both cars, get you from a to b? My ford has 4 wheels just like the bmw, why are you charging so much ?

    I know why most makers don't break out their bids, it is really quite simple. You are shopping, you will take our numbers and use them against some other maker. That's fine, if you were comparing a cans of soup, but each bid is for an entirely different job. Kitchens are not homogenous, consequently to bid a decent job takes a lot of effort and if we get the sense you want a breakout to shop our numbers around then why should we go to the trouble of helping you underpay us for our talent.
    Its your right to ask and its ours to say if price is the deciding arbiter then don't waste my time

    From the other point of view

  • dilly_ny
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Cabmanct - no one wants to waste time, but based on an architectural plan or the measurements for cabinet placement, I want to know whether a particular cabinet line is going to be $15,000 or $50,000 in my layout. Since we, the consumers, cannot ascertain this information from the proprietors, everyone's time is wasted in an effort to get a price or even a price range. I think its an industry problem and in this economy, price is playing a larger role than it did before.

    If you have clientele where price is not a driving factor, then perhaps you are the exception to the rule. But in fairness, this thread is not about custom cabinetry.

  • chiefy
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @dilly_ny - of course you can know if a cabinet line is going to cost $15K or $50K - every single dealer you talk to will provide that information. The OP wanted to know the specific price of a 30B3drawer. That is different.

    What I think cabmanct is alluding to is the fact that "lower-end" or "mass-manufacturered" cabinets (not necessarily synonyms) are more willing/able to provide prices by the cabinet because they are not also providing a service that goes along with "higher-end" "custom" cabinets.

  • cabmanct
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    dilly
    Yes of course, those numbers are vastly different.
    I was alluding to a price per foot.
    Every cabinet to me is custom, I guess, so I apologize if I got off on the wrong foot.

    chiefly,
    you are correct, when someone comes to me looking for custom cabinets. They are looking for white glove service and quality. Its my job to hold their hand and make sure all potential problems are identified and they get all that they want.
    But also, cheaper cabs use cheap materials so they are much easier to break out. If I do a custom carving on a valance, its hard to break out, even if I did how would you compare it to anything let alone a carving by another maker?

  • dilly_ny
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Interesting perspectives and perhaps there are regional differences. In my experience, having visited over 10 cabinet retailers, only two could give me a price range for my layout based on a specific brand, wood, and door style without spending a tremendous amount of time recreating the wheel (meaning drawing up the plan on their software even though I already had my layout).

    As an accountant trying to deal with more creative people in KD field, it is frustrating not to get real numbers to crunch. Instead I get KD's tell me they can "work with my budget" when in reality, they cannot, but they hope they can win you over in the mean time.

  • sas95
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We ended up going with a KD who offered 8 or 9 lines of cabinetry. He chose 4 lines which generally met our criteria, and priced out each line with the same layout. While we didn't get (or, for our purposes, need) a line by line comparison, we were able to see total price for each cabinet company and then compare what each company offered as against the others at their respective price points. We never looked at the project as paying by the door or the feature or the linear foot. Our decision was based on the perceived service we'd get from this particular KD, based both upon our impressions of him after speaking with him, and his reputation in the area. I might have felt differently if we were buying from HD or Lowes, but at a certain level you are also paying for service, and the notion that if problems arise this person will take care of you.

  • designer_8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We are in Long Island and we always give breakdown if it is a custom or semi custom cabinetry.

  • dilly_ny
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Long Island gal just got another one number price for cabinetry $40,500 for Plato brand, Alder wood, Champagne stain in a basic raised panel door, 24 cabinets with crown molding. It took a month to get this price (rather quick compare to other dealers). At our meeting, the retailer was unable to give me any range or idea of pricing - had I known a price range, I would not have wasted both our time. The designer took my detailed layout, made changes not feasible without asking me (did not contact me in the one month design phase), and disregarded several of my preferences. How do these designers / retailers expect to make sales? They count on the "you're gonna love it" concept to lure you, but I'm not buying a puppy.

    Still waiting to get pricing from a custom shop I visited in August and a retailer I visited 6 weeks ago. How these people sell anything is beyond my comprehension.

    To those cabinet retailers who work with clients and are upfront about pricing, kudos. You are a gem in your industry.

  • antss
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I'm essentially indigent so every penny I spend has to be saved"

    "I've ended up ordering a couple of base drawer cabinets thru DirectBuy "

    Are you indigent because of the fees you had to to DirectBuy to have the "opportunity" to buy those 3 cabinets ?

    "Charging by the foot is for the lazy, how much is a car, I mean they are priced by the foot right? A bmw & a ford right, they are both cars, get you from a to b? My ford has 4 wheels just like the bmw, why are you charging so much ? "

    Good tract to bring up.

    They are different prices because they are different cars. They both can be 4 doors in black with a radio/Nav system, leather ,sunroof ect... --- Just like the plan you brought in. BUt we all know they are nowhere near the same thing. Additionally BMW and Ford have different overhead cost associated with those "same" vehicles.

    No different in the cabinet business. Apples to Apples is quite hard - especially given the nature of the custom variables that go into a quote of even the same line of cabinets.

    A quote from the same plan might look like the same thing, but the drawer slides are different, the hinges, the paint, the wood quality, the glass even if they are both 110 deg opening and 100lb. rated full extension glides. Just like that grey leather in the Ford and BMW is grey - but not the same.

    Furthermore - none of you capitalist deal hounds get to dicker with Ford of BMW or any of them on the components that go into the cars. Ford may get a cheaper price from their vendor on radios, BMW on tires - you don't get an itemized quote of the cost to build it so you can shop the parts around for a better "deal" and you think nothing of it.

    You are buying a total package. Sure you can get itemized options , but this is not different than adding soft closing to your kitchen for $400 - delete it if you want to save some $$$ or the glazing, or the cute knife insert and lid rails.

    Auntie - you represent the other extreme end of the equation from the shady cabinet man looking to fund his yacht purchase. You are trying to screw the businessman under the guise of capitalism and watching YOUR money. It's no different - except it benefits you instead of the cabinet dealer. It is still the same selfish behavior.

    Your unwillingness to even pay a token $100 to defray some overhead is also telling about this mentality. That won't even cover the actual cost of the service you get even at the big boxes. I also find it rich that you actually complained about the service from a young, new, inexperienced sales weasel (not a designer) at a place that is in the "lowest price" segment of the market after you chafed at paying for anything.

    You really don't expect to get experienced, accurate, and usable professional help without paying for it do you??? Well, maybe you do - just don't act surprised and get your feelings hurt when people who know their stuff refuse to play YOUR game or take their skill and time elsewhere.

    You can get a plan and sometimes a detailed quote - but rarely without paying for it. Despite the perception, there is no "free quote" - especially a detailed one.

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