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redshoetraveler

New Kitchen Layout & Cabinets

redshoetraveler
12 years ago

We're working with our cabinet designer on our kitchen & would love to get some feedback. Just had our first meeting, so there are a bunch of ideas that we are still working out. I would love your feedback!

A couple things, though - dimensions of the overall kitchen cannot be changed. Kitchen is open to dining area with an archway separating the dining area from the family room. Pantry is in the corner next to the fridge. I know there are those who hate the kitchen island, but we are sticking with it instead of changing to a peninsula.

Some ideas we're toying with -

*Finding a good place for cabinets with glass doors to display plate collection...either one full cabinet or several small square uppers (see drawings)

*2-bin trash pull-out in island facing sink

*Spice pull-outs in upper cabinets on either side of the cooktop

*Microwave in upper cabinet next to double ovens (don't want a microwave in lower cabinets because of young children)

*Whether to have pocket doors to cover microwave & other small appliances...would look nice, but would limit access to counterop

*Should I install some kind of decorative plate rack above the window?

*Should I put vertical dividers for cookie sheets, etc. above double ovens or in another location?

*Should I change cabinet #19 in the island to verticle dividers for cutting boards, etc.?

Appreciate any feedback. Thanks!

Here's the sketches:





{{!gwi}}

Comments (12)

  • Buehl
    12 years ago

    A few quick comments.

    • Drawers!...You seem to have a lot of cabinets w/doors. Drawers are more useful and more user-friendly - yes, even more than roll out tray shelves (ROTS). I would make virtually all your base cabinets drawers. Exceptions: Trash Pullout (a sort of drawer!) and, possibly, a narrow cutting board cabinet with either a drawer on top or a shelf. Even sink bases can have a drawer added to the bottom if there's enough room to fit all your plumbing plus a drawer.

    Pantry...What type & size door do you have? If a regular door, you will need more than 28" on the diagonal. For starters, to accommodate the door frame, the wall will need to be at least 6" wider than the door (24" door, for example, will need at least a 30" wall). Also, b/c of the corners, you may need more. My wall is around 41" and we went for the shortest wall possible there. I do have an 8" thick wall on one end to accommodate a Message Center Niche, but that's only 3.5" thicker than a regular wall and would not add much to the overall length of the diagonal wall.

    BTW...what are the measurements of your corner pantry? How deep are you planning to have the shelves? 12" works nicely for the vast majority of small appliances, cans, bottles, boxes, etc.
    Island Seating...Assuming your island is all one height (counter-height, 36" off the floor), aim for at least a 15-inch overhang. That's the minimum recommended by the NKBA. Even if you skimp b/c you're concerned about aisle space behind the seating, be aware that anyone sitting at the island will still take up the same amount of space, you can "squeeze" the human body only so far! Your visitors will end up being less comfortable as well b/c they will have to lean farther forward to reach the counter or straddle the cabinets (spreading their legs wide to get closer) or sit sideways and twist to face the counter. None of these is very comfortable for any length of time. (Unless this is for a Daycare center only, don't plan on only having children sitting there, either. Children grow, very, very quickly and become adult-sized pre-teens/teens in no time.)
    Aisle widths...What are your aisle widths? None should be any less than 36" and even that's a bit narrow. Aim for at least 42" if there will be more than one person in the kitchen at the same time (and remember, when your children are old enough to start learning to share the workload and begin working in the kitchen, you will probably have more than one person most of the time...and for about 10 to 12 years for each child!) Sometimes, 36" will work in a space that has only one work zone, but if more than one zone is located next or across from each other, go with at least 42".

    Of more concern to me is the aisle behind the island seats. You have appliances (including ovens!) and work counters and a sink on the same aisle. I strongly recommend that aisle be at least 60" wide. You need room for people sitting at the...

  • redshoetraveler
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    buel - Thanks for taking the time to look over my plans and leave those great, detailed comments! I really appreciate it!

    *Drawers - I would love to change all the base cabinets to drawers...we'll see if the budget allows it.

    *Pantry - The pantry door is 28" & a regular door w/o glass. The plan actually allows 36" for the wall, so I think we're okay there. The pantry measures 48.5"x48.5". My current pantry has 12" shelves, so we will probably go that same route because it has worked well for us, but we haven't decided that for sure.

    *Island - Our island is all one height. I need to verify with my KD what the overhang on the island currently is. I think the architect had 12". In our current home, it's only 10.5"! And we've actually never noticed it being uncomfortable...we must be odd or very unobservant!

    *Aisle Widths - I believe the kitchen is 181" wide, which should allow a 42" aisle on the sink side, but only 46" on the oven/fridge side if we have a 15" overhang (and if my math is correct). :-)

    *Fridge - I will ask about the filler. Our fridge is a French door cabinet-depth model, so I think there will be room to open the doors.

    *MW - I need to check into those child safety locks! 10" off the counter seems really low, but I will measure it out.

    *Tray Storage - LOVE that idea! Thanks for sharing the picture, too. That cements the tray storage location. Wonderful.

    *Pocket Doors - Looks like I won't have the space to do this. Love the idea, but I was on the fence about it anyway.

    If you have any more suggestions, I would love to hear them!

  • breezygirl
    12 years ago

    My comments are similar to Buehl's.

    Drawers are best.

    A 12" overhang still isn't enough.

    The aisle behind the island on the seating side is very tight.

    MW drawers are really great. I resisted one for a long time because I have little kids also. In the end, the MW worked best in my design placed undercounter as a drawer. Kids are only little for a short period of time. Even my 5 y.o. would never mess with something he wasn't supposed to. My 23 month old might be another story....

    I'm also concerned about how far your fridge is from your prep zone which is the space to the left of the sink. I can't tell from your marked dimensions how far it actually is. I don't know a way to rearrange things, but you might want to think about that.

  • Buehl
    12 years ago

    So, the left wall is 181" wide?

    What about the bottom wall?

  • rosie
    12 years ago

    "Drawers - I would love to change all the base cabinets to drawers...we'll see if the budget allows it."

    Skimp on everything else if needed. Signed, True Believer.

  • blfenton
    12 years ago

    Drawers, drawers, drawers.

    Microwaves come with child-safety locks. How do I know this? My 11 month old great-nephew was pushing buttons on my under-counter MW just willy-nilly. Locked me out of the MW.
    The next morning as I was trying to open it to up to heat my water for my coffee I couldn't open the door. Got out the manual, couldn't figure out the instructions. Googled it and found the answer. (Apparently it's a common problem for parents). His little fingers weren't strong enough to actually push the button to open the door. Doesn't mean it couldn't be done.

  • rhome410
    12 years ago

    I agree with many of the comments you've already received, but not fully with a couple...

    1) Mounting it (microwave) 18" off the counter is too high.
    Our microwave is 18" off the counter. Granted, our counter is at 34 1/2", so that means the microwave is a tiny bit lower than if over standard counters, but our family (not tall) use it just fine. The younger kids (our 2 youngest are 7 and 11 now, and almost 4 and 8 when we moved in) don't use it when there's not someone around to keep an eye on them or help, which would be necessary because of handling hot items at any height. It actually dissuades use of it until they're old enough to reach and handle things properly. I think our 7 year old just started using it, because he now can reach the controls and only knows how to set it for 30 seconds.

    2) A 12" overhang still isn't enough.
    I think that if you've used a 10 1/2 inch overhang and found it comfortable, I don't know why you couldn't be happy with 12". However, remember this viewpoint may change as everyone gets older and bigger.

    A 12" overhang would leave you a wider (49") aisle, which might be a tradeoff that you'd find worth the cost. If you're not using the oven, I don't think that would be too tight, since in our 48" aisles, people can be doing projects, back to back without problem, and this would be similar.

    When you are getting things in and out of the oven, there could be hazards. Only you know how and how often the island seating might be used and when, how much you use your oven... and how much you're willing to go through to deal with children at seats while you're navigating around them with hot pans of baked goods, meat, etc. Unfortunately, the seating makes that side of the island less useful for baking projects and secondary prep.

    Something I don't think has been mentioned is prep sink location and the required work path for using the sinks as they are. The usual workpath for dinner prep involves things coming out of the fridge, going to the sink, being prepped, and then dropped in pans on the stove. Neither of your sink positions work really well for that purpose. Either mean sort of a circuitous path and mean moving wet ingredients from the sink areas to the island for prep, or prepping near the sink, but facing the walls instead of family and guests.

    Have you considered a prep sink on the corner of the island (by the fridge) with the overhang extended to the end of the island, so seating is in an L configuration? That way you might sometimes be able to keep a seated child or 2 at the end of the island when you need the side for a project.

  • redshoetraveler
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    breezygirl - thanks for the comments. A microwave drawer is sounding more appealing as long as I can lock my 2 year old out. He's my most hazardous child yet! Can't figure out a better place for my fridge, so if anyone has any ideas, let me know.

    buehl - The bottom wall is 236.5" including the pantry (the other dimension includes the pantry, as well).

    rosie - thanks for the drawer vote

    blfenton - thanks for another drawer vote & the microwave tip

    rhome410 - thanks for all the extra advice & opinions. I just measured my current OTR microwave, & it's 19.5" above the 36" counters, so I think we'll do fine with one that's 1.5" lower. I, too, think the aisle will be okay (bigger WOULD be better) for most of the time with the exception of baking. I wish I could turn my island 90 degrees, but then we'd have an island only 47" long (if my math is right). Thanks for the prep sink idea. I will have to think about that option.

    Any other ideas? I really appreciate them! If anyone wants to completely redraw my layout, I'd welcome that, too. Nothing is set in stone....yet. :-)

  • kitch2011
    12 years ago

    I know everyone loves drawers on here but we decided to do roll outs in our lower cabs b/c they are more adjustable IMO than drawers. I know it is two steps to get things out but I wanted to let you know why we choose this over drawers. Our kitchen desinger has done kitchens for over 25 years and I took her advice as well.

    I could see glass doors on the uppers on either side of the sink or between the ovens and fridge.

    Good luck! We almost have all our cabs in and it is so exciting. I started planning back in the late spring.

  • enduring
    12 years ago

    DRAWERS. I wished I had them. My kitchen is so small I only have 2 base cabinets that would have worked as drawers. I came too late to GW to discover the drawer concept. Every time I open one of my 2 lower cabinets I wished I had drawers.

    The steps involved with doors: 1)open the door, 2) pull out the shelf, which is a nice feature to have, 3) retrieve item, 4) push in the drawer, 5) wait for soft close shelve to close, 6) close the door.

    The steps with drawers: 1) open the drawer, 2) retrieve item, 3) close the drawer (it can soft close in its own time). Done.

    In a way adding the pull out shelf hinders regular door usage. Though it does help with not having to crawl around on the floor digging into the lower cabinets. Another thing, with pullout shelves and possibly drawers too, there is not the ability to cram stuff into the lower cupboard space as there was when it was a stationary shelf. Pullouts and drawers require more organization and a place for everything. Not a bad thing.

  • aliris19
    12 years ago

    I'm a true believer in drawers too. I took a leap of faith and got em all for my kitchen but I wasn't convinced in advance. My mother has them and I don't like them much. But it turns out that hers are either just too tight in too small a space or possibly more likely, that they just have to be *yours*. You may well wind up having to place things inside the drawers in just exactly one certain position and when it's someone else's kitchen this is annoying. When it's your own, you just learn and it's a boon rather than a hindrance very quickly. At least that's my experience.

    I am so happy not having to root around on my knees for stuff buried in cabinets.

    I am so happy not having to fiddle with placement of stuff within pullout drawers that then have to be waited for before closing the doors that contain them.

    It also has taken me a couple months to turn into a true believer of drawers for holding plates and cups. At first it felt scary, like they'd shift or fall over or I'd smash them accidentally on the top as the drawer closed. But you get used to it and know what will and won't work and the background nervousness recedes. Now I can just zoom everything into its place in one fell swoop -- it's very, very quick.

    Also, with cabinets you have to angle your own body in a certain way to get inside. That little mental energy required to maneuver into position is draining in a very small way that adds up eventually. Drawer fronts are perpendicular to your work surface and you don't have to keep swinging back and forth. Hard to explain and I would cave if someone wanted to challenge the validity of that annoyance. But I think it may be back there too.

    Go Drawers Go!

  • redshoetraveler
    Original Author
    12 years ago

    Thanks, friends! Anyone else?