Can you maybe put the oven and the cooktop into a kitchen island and eliminate everything on the wall where they currently live? That seems easiest to me, and would allow you to take down the wall between the kitchen and the family room. How are you handling exhaust in the current layout?

Is that bump-out on the far wall a dining nook?

That sounds like a great idea. The exhaust vents to the roof. Yes the bumpout is a breakfast area with 2 large tall windows.

What if you made the den into the formal living room/dining room. The den is larger than the current formal living room -- would it fit a table too?

If it does, you'd just have to move furniture -- that's free.

Then the currently living room can be the new den. It is conveniently already open to the currently dining room, which would be a better location for the new kitchen. All the walkways and pass throughs are consolidated in one corner, and you have two totally uninterrupted walls.

This post was edited by Jillius on Mon, Oct 6, 14 at 17:40

Jilius can you draw me a picture of the 4 rooms so I can visualize it? Nothing elaborate just so I can see what your seeing. Thanks

I just edited my previous post to add a picture. It would really help to know which of these walls is load-bearing, but I think it likely you can take down the two little wall sections I marked.

What do you hope to gain by moving the formal dining room into the formal living room? A larger kitchen? Or is there another reason for that wish?

I didn't address that but I did tackle the traffic flow through your existing kitchen with 2 possibly plans.

Plan A

Plan B

I eliminated the wall between kitchen and family room, created a clean-up zone under the windows at the bottom of the room (hopefully these are counter height or can be made counter height) and created an L kitchen with island where the cooking and prep work will happen.

I did a little finagling in the mudroom area to see if I could create a back foyer separating the kitchen and laundry area that would mean I could eliminate the pocket door in the kitchen. That would mean one less door to deal with when bringing in groceries. Not sure if this can be done, though. Hard to tell from your plan.

The only difference between Plan A and Plan B is Plan A has a MW drawer and 30" range and Plan B has a 30" cook top (you have room to do a 36" cook top, if you want) and a 30" wall oven/MW column.

I couldn't figure out how to add a pantry. However, you could meld Plan A and Plan B together, keep the MW drawer and turn the oven column into a pull-out pantry.

I would think that venting the range/cook top in its new location would be fairly easy out the carport wall.

You could add 2 seats at the lower end of the island. The downside of this is that it does mess with the traffic flow past the island. You'll have to decide whether island seats or traffic flow is a higher priority.

If your reason for moving the formal dining area into the formal living area is to expand the kitchen, I have another idea for you. For that matter, if you really want open concept and can remove as many of the interior walls as possible, well, we could have some fun. But doing it within your budget could be difficult. Removing walls, putting in support beans and redoing flooring would eat up a lot of what you've budgeted.

Thanks Lisa. Loved the prep area (better view than the carport) but hubby nixed it due to the almost floor to ceiling double windows there and how they would look from the sunroom if shortened.

The reason for the formal LR elimination is I will have more use for a larger formal DR and have no need for another living area due to the den and sunroom.

Really want the open concept and we are prepared to remove walls to do this. Not living in the house yet so demolition isn't an issue. Thanks

Ooooh. I thought you wanted to have the formal dining and formal living in the same room together. I didn't realize you wanted to eliminated formal living.

Have you talked to a contractor to find out what walls can come down, what support will be needed and where it will need to go, plus an approximate cost for doing all that? If it were possible to eliminate the walls between DR and kitchen, FR and kitchen and part of the wall between DR and FR, that would open up a whole slew of possibilities, including an island with seating for you. But that would take a very healthy bite out of your budget, leaving very little left to finish the kitchen remodel.

We can spin all kinds of pretty plans but without specifics, I don't think it will be very helpful to you.

No just see no need for it. Wasted space. Not looking to resell during my lifetime so making this my retirement home.

Kitchen as is now is just a hallway with 3 routes in and out. Attaching the before we bought it pictures.

View into DR

View into dark den

Elgin_Janet, I suggested you talk to a GC but on further thought, I think you should talk to a structural engineer. It will be money well spent, plus you'll need the plans he or she will provide for building permits.

DH and I have gone this route. We opted not to do one change because the benefit to cost wasn't worth it to us. We are, however, making the other changes and can't wait to add more windows and wider doorways. In all, we spent about $1300 for the structural engineering plans. Seems like a lot of money but on the other hand, not having the roof fall down around our ears is worth more than that. :-)

Now turning around. This is the laundry/mud room and half bath area.

I agree with everything that was said about the structural engineer. It was very cheap for us to have one come out and identify the load-bearing walls (around $250?), and then it was about $1000 (maybe $1500?) to have him draw up some plans for changing a structural wall.

Just so I'm clear, what rooms/zones do you want to end up with? And what with what in the same room? It sounds as if you want an informal living room open to the kitchen (maybe in the same room, like a great room?) plus a formal dining room. If living, dining, and kitchen were all open to each other (like a completely open layout), would you like that? Do you want another other features in these rooms -- like a kitchen table or a kids' play area or anything else?

Jillius I would like to put the formal dining room in the formal living room. The present formal dining room is too small anyway when I would have family over.

I already have the den and sunroom so I really don't feel the need to replace.the formal living room at all.

I want to see into my den from the kitchen to have that open concept,

After I've moved the DR into the LR ...what do I do with the old DR?? Make it a study? Expand the kitchen into it? Don't know what to do with the space. I have small grands that come over so I suppose it could be a play area.

Hubby is going to consult a st eng when we know what we want to do ie. which walls to come down ect.

Any help improving the flow and efficiency of the areas would be greatly appreciated. Neither of us has a speck of the imagination it takes to design this. Thanks so much.

Is the only bathroom on this floor the half bath inside the laundry?

You need a structural engineer, but first, you NEED an architect. You can easily destroy the value of a home with a non sensitive renovation with a poor layout, and it's money well worth spending.

The house is 1900sf one story ranch. The 2 full baths are at the other end of the house.

Can I see a layout of the whole house? I have an idea, but it makes this half bath inconvenient to the living room, and I want to make sure your guests still have easy access to a bathroom that isn't in a bedroom.

I think an initial consult with a structural engineer is necessary to help you identify which walls can easily come down - as in, cheap to do - and which are structural and will require more work and $$.

Even though you plan to do quite a bit of the work yourselves, much of your budget would go towards major structural changes, such as pouring additional piers under your home to support new posts or installing a steel beam. Add in the cost of engineered drawings and permits and it all adds up quickly. Then there's the unexpected costs that arise when you open up walls and find that the HVAC venting that you thought went up that wall actually goes up this wall and will need to be relocated. There's a reason why a contingency fund of 20% of budget is recommended for remodeling projects.

Once you've done this preliminary assessment, you will have a better idea about what is possible within your modest budget of $20K to $25K. I'm not saying it's not a lot of money but it is about half of what the average kitchen remodel costs. We can help you create a great kitchen, regardless of budget and structural restrictions.

I've linked to Google search results of "under $20K kitchens" kitchen forum threads below. I thought it might be helpful to see what others have done within your budget range. IIRC, there were quite a few that were DIY, too, so you should be able to pick up tips on how to stretch your budget as far as possible.

Here is a link that might be useful: Under $20K kitchens threads

Here's a drawing I made before we found the blueprints. I think the only things I missed is the window in DR and 2 separate windows in the LR. All of which are facing the front of the house

Lisa thank you for the link. I'm going to check it out

Where is the sunroom you keep mentioning?

Where do you want the kitchen to be open to? The family room (den) or the new dining room, or both?

How low is the dining room window? I'm assuming that since it is the front of the house, changing it won't go over any better than changing the ones in the current breakfast nook?

The sunroom runs from the back door (in the laundry room) to the other side of the fireplace. It extends about 16 ft out from the house. There is a sliding glass door next to the fireplace in the den that you can easily go into the sunroom

I would like to see into the den from the kitchen somehow. Oh and the DR window starts about 3 feet from the floor. Thanks

Okay, so here is what I would do if this were my house. I threw in something you didn't ask for (and don't have room for in your budget), but it is a real improvement, so you might consider it for the future.

1) To give you the open layout and specifically the sight lines from the kitchen to the family room, I removed the wall between the current living and the current family and the wall between the current kitchen and both those rooms. It's my best guess that the wall between the current kitchen and the other two is load-bearing because you have a long skinny house. If I'm right, I'd suggest flanking the kitchen island with support columns like this:

I actually think you should consider doing that anyway if you don't need the columns for support. Having a little visual separation from the other two rooms would be nice and help the banquette belong to the kitchen a little more.

2) I moved the kitchen, dining, and living spaces all around this space, but I think this layout is really the best. You want easy access from the garage to the kitchen for when you're bringing in groceries. It's best if the dining room (the neatest/most formal room of these three) is the first thing you see when you come in the front entrance, and while a fireplace is a luxury in any room, it's the nicest in a room where you can cozy up on a couch with a hot mug of something. The handy thing about keeping a similar layout to what you have now is that it keeps the kitchen where you already have it, so all the plumbing is already there.

3) I used up the current dining room space by giving you a direct walkway from the garage into the kitchen, and I gave you a large combination mud room/pantry. I didn't know where the window was in the current dining room, so I didn't suggest a layout for that, but it should be easy enough to create two separate zones in the space.

4) Because the window in the current dining room would be blocked whenever the new pantry is closed, you might consider skylights above the kitchen.

5) And now for the bonus suggestion. When I started this for you, I was immediately struck by what a long trek it is from the bedrooms (where laundry is created) to the laundry. Lots of doorways, lots of obstacles.

I was also struck by the odd location of the half bath. Your guests would be walking through another room by very utilitarian/messy stuff to use the bathroom. If this were my house, I'd be sending my guests down the other way to the full bath instead, so really that half bath is only useful to a person doing laundry.

I was separately struck by how your smallest bedroom's need for a closet was the only thing standing in the way of a nice, straight hallway with way more storage.

And then I got to thinking that the smallest bedroom was really a perfect size and location for a laundry room (which wouldn't need that closet, so the hall could straighten out). The smallest bedroom even already has a wall full of pipes because of the adjacent bathroom!

The current laundry room is bigger, making it a better size for a bedroom and a nice location for a guest bedroom (more private, doesn't need easy access to laundry). And since the half bath is already there, it's already plumbed. Add a shower, and bam, you've got a really nice guest suite. Even after removing the square footage for the full bath and walk-in closet, that room is 12' x 13' (compared to the smallest bedroom's 10 x 10), which fits a Cal King. You could get one of those super-deluxe full-height air mattresses and keep it in the walk-in closet when you don't have guests and use the room as a home gym or other activity room if you have a hobby.

As I said, though, your budget is tight for just what you had in mind, so the laundry switcheroo would be for another day if you like the idea.

Wow. Thanks Jillius, great ideas! Really a lot to think about. Loved the placement of the island and the new garage entrance. Thanks

Happy to help!

I just had another thought. If you think you have a bit too much seating between the island, dining, and banquette, you could make the banquette area an office nook. Put floor-to-ceiling bookcases along the two short walls and center a desk on the windows. Would be very pretty.

Also, here are two kitchens with doors flanking them the way yours would (just for design inspiration):

Yours would be a door (to the garage) and a doorway (to the little hall with the back door), but if the moldings are the same, it'll have the same effect, I think.

Just beautiful ! Great inspiration. Giving me so much to think about.

I was just looking for something else when I came across these two:

The first one has a layout almost identical to what I recommended for you. (It's a smaller kitchen, so the counter top stretches are not as long as yours would be, and the fridge is on the opposite side. I placed your fridge next to the counter where it'd be natural to drop groceries from the garage and then load them into the nearby fridge and pantry. Also where the fridge would not block light from the banquette area.)

The second picture has a peninsula with the fridge off to the side. If you can only take the wall down between the kitchen and family room and can't take the wall down between the current living room and current family room, something like this would still be an option.

Before you go falling in love with Jillius' thoughtful lay-out, here's some food for thought.

GW threads about costs to remove a load bearing wall

GW threads about costs to move plumbing fixtures

GW threads about DIY kitchen remodels

How much of the work can you DIY? Can you install new beams? Glulams and steel beams are *heavy*! Can you repair drywall? Putting up new drywall is a piece of cake. Taping and mudding it to get a smooth texture, not so easy. Can you handle all the plumbing work? How about the re-wiring? The more you can do, the more likely you'll be able to bring a grand remodel in within your budget but it pays to be realistic about what you can do and how much time (months not weeks) you're willing to devote to the remodel, IMO.

I really hope this type of remodel is realistic for you since it sounds like something you really want. However, I also hope that you are as informed as possible before taking it on.

Oh yes, I agree with all of that. I figured you just needed an idea of a floor plan you'd like so then you could take that to a structural engineer and ask how much of that plan was feasible.

For sure, for sure, for sure you can't have everything I suggested for your budget unless you guys are construction professionals doing all the labor for free and calling in favors.

But it was my understanding all along that you knew this and just needed a starting point for the wish list so you could begin to compromise. That you guys were having trouble even thinking of the starting point.

elgin_janet, you may be able to get some clues about which walls are load bearing by going into the attic and crawlspace. Here's what I've learned from our GC and the structural engineer.

If you see roof trusses in the attic, there's a good chance that the roof is only supported by the exterior walls, which means that the wall between the LR and FR is *not* load bearing. Your blueprints may also include this info but don't go by that alone since it's entirely possible that changes were made during construction and the plans won't reflect those changes.

If the roof is hand-framed (built on site, as ours is), then you'll need to do more investigating to ID load bearing walls. The engineer showed us where one of the supports for our roof came down on a glulam that spans our upstairs landing. He then went into the crawlspace and saw that the weight of that beam was supported all the way down to the crawlspace by a hefty post on a concrete pier. He compared the plans to the as-built structure and told us that the glulam was supported by this post and another at the stairway wall. That busted our hopes of removing the drywall covered wall that conceals the posts that run from the roof to the crawlspace. That is, if we want the roof to stay above our heads. And we kinda do. :)

That's why I suggest that you investigate your crawlspace, too. The location of the posts and concrete piers will also provide clues about which walls are load bearing.

Unless you have expertise in this area, I wouldn't make any assumptions on your findings, though. It's only to give you a better idea of what may be possible and what might be a budget buster.

In the meantime, here are two potential lay-outs that require minimal structural changes.

Plan B

I'm assuming, hopefully correctly, that the DR window isn't "about 3 feet from the floor" but is either exactly 3 feet from the floor or higher than 3 feet from the floor so that you can run a counter along that wall for the clean-up zone. That puts it conveniently close to the DR.

The cook top and prep sink run along the carport wall with the prep sink under the window (even though it's not the best view).

The oven/MW column is separated from the pantry and fridge by a 30" wide cab so that you have a landing zone close to the oven and MW. You need this since the cook top counter run is more than the max recommended distance of 48" to the closest landing zone.

The entry to the FR (which is what I'm assuming you mean by "den") is widened but the wall is not completely removed.

The windows by the sun room become a window seat plus the peninsula gives you counter seating for 2.

I made only a slight change to Plan C

I swapped out the cook top and wall oven for a 30" range and the built-in MW for a MW drawer at the end of the peninsula. The pantry and fridge are separated by a 30" cab so you have a place to set down pantry goods closer than the range counter. The FR entry is wider than in Plan B.

Provided you are able to do a lot of the work yourselves, that you choose low to moderate budget items for the remodel, and barring any nasty surprises hiding in the walls, I think either plan should be doable within your budget.

Here are 2 more lay-out options for you that require minimal wall changes. They are variations of each other, one with a 36" cook top and wall oven/MW column, the other with a 30" range and a MW drawer.

Both of these put the prep zone facing the sun room and family room instead of the carport window and wall.. Both also provide 3 seats at the peninsula. I added a 72" wide opening in the wall between FR and DR, centered on the fireplace, to connect these 2 spaces and to bring more light into the FR. You can do the same in Plans B and C that I posted yesterday.

I have another idea but it will have to wait until later. My garden is calling me. :-)

Wow all great ideas. Gone for the WE and came back to these layouts! Oh we wouldn't do any wall tear outs w/o a structural engineer approval. Anyway the city inspectors require it. Thank you all!