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celticmoon_gw

Water disaster opportunity...vote to gut or not to gut (long)

celticmoon
13 years ago

Sigh. Many fans whooshing as I type.

Dishwasher drain hose was apparently leaking for months (likely since the Marmoleum install in December though I cannot prove any negligence). We found the slow leak when the wood flooring in the adjacent DR began to buckle. There is some mold and damage to the particle board subfloor, the particle board cabinet bases, etc etc. A real mess.

Aaack.

We are doing the obvious: the leak is fixed; DW is still out; we pulled off the back of the passthrough cabinets to open everything up; we have tarped off the area and are running fans to dry everything out. I have a mold specialist coming - safety first and all. Whatever the structural damage, we will definitely do what needs doing.

Question is how far to take this 'opportunity'?

Many people would jump at license to tear out these 23 year old cabinets and Corian. Despite being a TKO kitchen junkie for decades, I have always been oddly loathe to take on a tearout remodel - all the decisions, all the upheaval - and how would I eat, LOL!?! And justifying the money - yikes. I can afford it, but I'm not keen on it. Makes me kinda sick actually. The frugalista in me is still proud of my DIY cosmetic update of three years ago. I am happy with the overall feel and function of my kitchen as is. There isn't really any "look" I would prefer. I even like the Corian (please, no stone vs Corian wars).



OTOH the cabinets are 23 years old. And there's room for improvement: more drawers, undermount or integral sink, prep sink, wall ovens, etc etc It would be thrilling to strive for a 'perfect' kitchen. Unless I go crazy.

Could the current design be better? Sure. Tens and tens of thousands of dollars better? Meh. Insurance? 5k deductable, so I dunno. Resale? Nonissue, though we are aready high for the area. Stress tolerance? Kinda tapped due to DH's protracted health issues the last 3 years (He is OK now). Whatever path, I am looking at some upheaval and expense - no choice on that. There is choice on how much upheaval and expense depending on whether we:

A) Rip it all out: 38 linear feet base cabinets, 20 linear feet uppers, 90 sq feet counters. Feel free to propose a better layout. "There's no pockets in a shroud" -Irish saying

B) Fix just the water damage (cabinet guy sez he can replace sink cabinet, etc without pulling off counters)

C) Exploit the situation enough to right a few other wrongs in addition to fixing the water damage. (Corian has a crack near DW so replace that 25 sf part with an integral sink run, maybe rework base cabinets to add a couple drawers and get DW away from corner sink...auggh, this is how it starts)

Choice A overwhelms me, but if not now, when? Frugalista of course likes B. Choice C is very tempting, but that is SUCH a slippery slope.

Thoughts?


Comments (14)

  • cienza
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My husband tells me this all the time: If it works, don't fix it; if it doesn't work, FIX it right! First, I'd fix the damage only; choice B. Your kitchen sounds very large compared to ours; a huge undertaking; lots of planning, forethought and more planning. I would not choose C because once that bottle opens, it's too hard to put the cork back in! Finding the cutoff point gets fuzzy. We made that mistake too many times before; found out the hard way it costs less to gut than spruce it up sometimes! I used to think like a slum-lord: fix only what's broken enough to get it workable and spend as least as possible. Once we figured out we were staying in the house, everything that was fixed to 'workable' condition at some point was redone, demolished and redone or removed and redone. What a waste of money and time! Lesson learned. When it came time for the kitchen, total gut. Done once, done right!

  • melaska
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You have a great-looking kitchen! You'll always find something you're not totally happy with no matter how much $$$ you spend. I'm not GW expert - I'm still learning but I've read enough threads to know that very high-end GW kitchens have their own 'drats' moments with their kitchens.

    Fix what is necessary...the feeling I'm getting from your post makes me think that's the most 'comfortable' route for you. But, whatever you decide...don't second guess yourself. Good luck! :)

  • jterrilynn
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So much wonderful counter space...lucky lucky lucky! I think if it were me I would just fix the damage as you are doing and replace the base cabinets only w/more drawers and stain to match the uppers. I would keep existing countertops. knowing me though I would get all excited in the end and spurge on something a bit exotic for the island top. Very nice kitchen btw!

  • ideagirl2
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that your kitchen looks great. If it looks great and it's working for you, why change it? Especially since your home's value is already high for the area--you're not going to get a lot out of the investment, and there's not a lot to gain in terms of your everyday experience in the kitchen, since you already have a beautiful, functional kitchen. Who cares if it's 23 years old? I've seen kitchens that are 6 weeks old and look terrible. I've seen kitchens that are 50 years old and look--and function--just great. Age is totally irrelevant, unless you're using age as a synonym for wear and tear and general rattiness... which, looking at the photos, is obviously not the case here.

    I mean, your kitchen looks very elegant. Why rip out something that works and is beautiful? That's wasteful. Especially since, as you'll probably discover if you start sketching out floor plans and options, if you're building within an existing house there is no such thing as a perfect kitchen. You have to deal with the limitations imposed by the existing structure, so there will be compromises. You'll just have different compromises to deal with than the ones you're dealing with now.

    I personally would probably go with option C, but that's because for me it wouldn't be a slippery slope. I would actually be able to stop there with no qualms. If it's a slippery slope for you, then don't go there... unless that crack in the Corian could be causing more water damage, in which case replacing that stretch of counter is probably a good idea, as long as you can do it without hurling yourself down the slippery slope...

    Just as a general rule I think it's best to not go with a decision that leaves you feeling completely stressed out when you so much as think about it. If simply thinking about it makes you feel overwhelmed, yikes, what would it be like to actually do it?! Go with your gut, and your gut, it seems, is happiest with option B.

  • beekeeperswife
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh celticmoon, I'm so sorry that this has happened to you. I have always loved your kitchen, and I will be following your how-to-stain instructions when I move on to my bathroom vanity.

    I wish I could tell you what I think you should do. I know what I would do if it were me. (I would seize the opportunity presented by this unfortunate situation and re-do whatever I wanted).

    I think you should wait and see what happens with the mold guy, you may be in for more ripping out of drywall and flooring than you thought. :\ This may in turn help you make your decision.

    So ((((HUGS)))) to you, sorry that you have to go through this. Keep us posted.

    -Bee

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    These responses are very helpful. Thank you!!

    I am kinda agreeing with no tearout. Especially since I like the look and don't see a obviously better layout option. Not without major moving of vents, walls, etc. Do you?

    Good news is mold guy is not concerned about toxicity. But I still have damage to repair. So it is B versus C...

    Thing is, I am such a miser that without a good excuse/opportunity, I don't think I would indulge in addressing other bits like the crack in the Corian. I think I will at least go price out replacing the elbow of (cracked) Corian. Pulling it off would make the repairs easier, and I could maybe reuse it and the supersingle sink in the laundry room. A better functioning laundry room sink would ease the crowding in the kitchen corner. (DH projects, dogwashing, handwashing, plant repotting etc. Worth thinking about...besides that crack has always bugged me and I covet an undermount or integral sink.

    Hmmmm...

  • Fori
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I like option B with maybe a touch of C. But you can always do C later when you are prepared for it. B doesn't preclude doing C later, does it?

    As far as C goes, Corian is nice (I especially like it in white). But what makes it wonderful is that integrated sink. So maybe you can treat yourself to a new chunk of countertop at LEAST.

    I'm glad you like your kitchen as much as I do. :)

  • lascatx
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is it possible that the crack in your Corian was caused by the earlier water damage -- swelling in the cabinet bases, floor, subfloor? You say it is near the DW that was leaking.... If the installation was level, I would look at that and perhaps the Corian will be covered by insurance and at least make that replacement issue easier -- especially if you can reuse part of it in the laundry room. If they have changed the white since you got yours, you might be looking at the entire perimeter with island optional.

    If the layout is good and you're okay with the cabinets or modifying with some pullouts or baskets instead of replacing with drawers, it sounds like fixing what needs to be fixed is the way to go (including the Corian since it is cracked).

  • plllog
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Considering how hard we ALL worked on getting you into the perfect floor, I don't see why you'd go for a tear out. We (and, I presume, you) love that kitchen.

    Yes to getting the crack fixed. Yes to reusing the old counter to improve the laundry room. BUT...can you match in new Corian that will match? Would you be okay with contrast? Or would you have to replace the whole kitchen? If the new Corian doesn't match, can you do something like having the island top refabricated to fit where the crack is, and then just put something contrasty on the island? Or can the crack be fixed?

    Opportunities. Sure, having the carpenter working provides some opportunities. If the cabinet fix isn't going to match perfectly, maybe a little more than the one cabinet has to be fixed so that it looks intentional rather than pieced in. So...is there somewhere you could put in wall ovens without changing the rest? Could they be pieced in nicely on the pantry wall? Would there be a way to balance them? How easy/hard would it be to put service (electrical circuit) in that wall? Or any wall? The wall ovens sounds like a total redo option to me.

    How hard would it be to get plumbing to the island? Remember that also includes a fall line for the drain, as well as a drain vent. Easy? Hard? In between? It's not a huge island. Do you really want to sacrifice that much counter space to a sink? What about the cabinet? You'll need to give up a small cabinet to the sink and plumbing as well? Or did you want it on the pantry wall? Same questions. Good idea? Yeah!! A prep sink!!! Or OMG, what a mess, there's a nice, tight work area in there to begin with, and putting the new sink in the laundry room takes care of the extraneous projects.

    It seems silly to have to be messing with the kitchen and not get the crack that's been bothering you taken care of. While you're doing that, get the new sink you want and move the DW if that's practical. And that's it. Not a slippery slope. Just fixing what's broken, and only updating that which is in the broken area.

    And if you want to convert a few cabinets to drawers, you can do that too, or you can wait and do that at another time. If you meant that you'd want to be removing those cabinets and replacing them rather than retrofitting, and if they're in the area where the counter is being fixed, well, then, do that too. Just no other major fixtures unless you're doing a tear out. And you don't need a tear out.

    Right?

  • weedmeister
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What about the floor?

  • bmorepanic
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Golly, that's too bad. Been there, done that. You already know your refinishing job is just stellar. You might also know that I'm not going to say that if you can afford it, why not do it?

    Considering my little water problem was in the exterior walls, I didn't have much of a choice. For the longest time, I was hoping to just re-drywall and put back what I had but without the troublesome raised bar, but the house had other ideas. I am mostly happy with the results, but like you, I would have been a lot happier if it never happened.

    My bias is I hate spending a lot of money for not much improvement. At 35-45 dollars per square foot for new counters plus a fairly expensive base cabinet or two - I might be ok with about a grand or two at most. But probably the kitchen needs replacement subfloor until sound, uninstall and reinstall flooring and maybe de-install and re-install a couple of cabinets to make sure all the wet floor dries. So, maybe double that to two to four thousand. It's about 2-10% of the cost of a gut remodel.

    I know you've thought before about your floor plan - you might get a box store estimate just to see roughly what it would run... Can you take a little time before spending much other than drying out money? Weigh the money against the life value of whatever floor plan changes you might have dreamed of?

    Ours was a compromise between what we most wanted (unaffordable) and what would be minimum-but-ok to live with. If you talk it out with a friend or two, what would you want from your kitchen that you don't have? Would it change your ability to cook, the pleasantness of the room or the relationship between family members? Enough to pay for it? Enough to pay for some of it? Enough not to cringe every time you think of the money (I'm doing that guilt now!).

    Its always give up one thing to get another. I wouldn't blame you for deciding either way.

  • celticmoon
    Original Author
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh you guys, thanks! Such wisdom and support! Wow. And I am frankly touched that you remember me and my flooring and island obsessing. I gotta get back to hanging around more with you. It's been a crazy couple years on the health front. I have missed you and this Forum.

    All you say is true. Pllog you really nailed the issues. Sadly there is no good match for the Corian - not by any maker (I looked at em all today). I did get leads on possible crack repair people - though I swear I went down that road a couple years ago. The crack is stable and is exactly as it was when I moved in here 10 years ago. So no connection to the water, Lascatx.

    There is also no dye lot for the Marmoleum. Eek. So the first order of business is to will/wish/pray that the subfloor issues don't extend to the Marmoleum. All together now... And Weedmeister, the Bamboo ia less of an issue as I have extra.

    Sooooo, I'm throwing down with cabinet guy who thinks he can rebuild the sink cabinet, etc without lifting off the counter. And because I magically had the foresight to buy a silgranite sink that can be undermount OR top mount, maybe, just maybe there is a way to reinstall the sink as an undermount in the course of changing out the sink cabinet (problem was getting it into the existing corner cabinet). Undermount would be a sweet perk out of all this. Corian crack guy will have to have a look at the existing cutout. Fingers crossed. But this could actually work out very well.

    And yes, down the road there could well be improvements like wall ovens or an enlarged island with prep sink. (Basement ceiling is open.) A Frankensein kitchen done in bits suits me. But, I would rather get to that whenever than be rushed now. I didn't wake up Friday expecting all this. A car, a master bath and a patio are all way higher on my wish list than a kitchen remodel.

    Feeling more steady here. Thanks so much. You guys rock.

  • rhome410
    13 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sounds like you've come to a wise decision, and that you will be most comfortable with. I'm just sorry you're having to deal with this...What a hassle! It'll be great if you can get at least 1 or 2 improvements for yourself out of this. Best wishes.

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