It would help if you posted a floor plan in your space of the two islands you have in mind. Would the eating island have seating? And if so, would you still have a breakfast table? So that seating would be back to back?

Or is the eating island instead of the breakfast table?

And you're saying you'd have a wall behind the eating island? So the kitchen and breakfast table would have a wall between them? I think it'd be weird not to have them open to each other. It'd no longer feel like the breakfast table was in the kitchen, so it'd just be like a little dining room.

Other thoughts:

1) The door at the bottom of the staircase to the second floor -- are you sure you want that? Imagine carrying a big laundry basket down from upstairs and navigating through the stairs door and the laundry room door in that tight, angled hallway with both doors sticking into the hallway and making it hard to move. That would get old very fast.

And what situation would you want the stairs door shut anyway? It just seems like you'd want to leave that door open all the time, but when it's open, it intrudes into the hall, so you couldn't leave it like that.

2) I assume this place isn't built yet. If not, you might consider turning the staircase 90 degrees so the base of it is in the foyer. This would mean the living room and dining room would share a wall that could have an arch put in it, so the dining and living could be open to each other. That would be better for entertaining.

Hi Jillius,
Thanks for writing back.
The architect has the files for the plan so I can't modify today, but I will have him try out this change this week- perhaps I can post an update then with the 2 islands.
To answer your questions though:

*The eating island will have 2-3 barstools, yes, mainly for my 3 boys to plop down on while I'm doing dishes and they want to chat or ask homework questions, have a snack, etc. :)
*The 2 islands would basically take the place of the one 5x8 island we show on our plan, but I would have to enlarge my kitchen some to accommodate both. So the 2 islands are open to the breakfast room - no wall between them and the breakfast room. I will do a built in bench seating/table in the breakfast room for additional seating, and the double oven and broom closet you see on my plan will become decorative low wall with shelves (maybe 2 ft wide) with an arch to the living room. I hope all that makes sense!

I think the door you are talking about in the dining hallway is the entrance to basement stairs. The 2nd floor stairs enter from the foyer. If you are just meaning that I should skip the doors - do you think I should leave the laundry room (angled door) off and leave that an open room to the hallway outside the dining room? I'd be ok with that if it's not a visually unattractive look from the dining room.. hard for me to visualize some of this!
As for the basement stairs door.. I think I have to have that? If not needed for code, I wouldn't mind leaving the basement stairs open to view.

Thanks again for your help!

Ohhh. I thought the door to the basement stairs was also the door to the 2nd floor stairs. (Like, you'd open the door and see a set of stairs going down and a set of stairs going up.)

As long as you are not going through two doors in that same tiny hallway with your laundry, you're fine. I'd keep the door on the laundry (that room can get messy and noisy), and I think it makes sense to keep a door to your basement entrance. The basement is not always in use, and you don't want to be heating and cooling an empty room.

The main oddity really was closing off your second floor with a door, which you are not planning to do!

If you right click on the Houzz photo, you'll see three codes. Click on the first box and it will highlight. Copy and paste it into the body of your message here. Or use GW's optional link URL function to make a clickable link. That option shows up right under your reply box.

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Portland Interior Designers & Decorators Garrison Hullinger Interior Design Inc.

Could you please enlarge the photo and post it again? Clicking on your photo takes me to your Yahoo account but even then, I can't make it large enough to read the dimensions, which makes it very difficult to give you useful feedback.

It would also be helpful to know more about you. How many in your family? How many cooks? How often do you entertain? Formally or casually and for how many? See the New to Kitchens thread that's at the top of the forum page for more info about what we need to know from you.

To answer your question: could I put a main sink in the 6x3 eating island?

Short answer: No.

Subtract out the 3" of counter overhang (1.5" on each side) and you're left with 69" for cabs to house a DW and a sink. A DW with side panel (something has to hold up the counter) will be at least 25" wide. A clean-up sink cab can be as narrow as 24" (with limited sink options) but most prefer a cab 33" to 36" wide to fit a large, single basin sink. If you do a 24" sink cab, you'll have room for a 20" wide cab next to it. If you choose a 36" sink cab, you're left with only 8", which means you'll only have about 10" to 11" of counter to one side of your sink. Your kitchen isn't tiny so it seems strange to crowd the clean-up sink in such a manner, IMO.

Lisa_a -
I am trying to post a larger picture, can you see if this is better? If not, I am officially less tech-savvy than my 8 year old :-/

We are a family of 5 as of Nov 3 :) Having our third boy. I am the main cook and do like cooking.. not as much baking. We entertain quite a bit so there are always people gathered in the kitchen. Partly that's why I don't like a sink in the island.. I want folks to gather around it and I dont' mind a kitchen full of people while I cook. We have 25 acres for kids to run around, hubbies to fish and hunt and ride dirt bikes so entertaining is casual - we'll be including lots of outdoor living as we can afford. I like a kitchen that is open and airy, but I don't like stock plans because they seem just... boring. I want something that feels like it had some custom features included, you know? I wish this plan allowed for more design elements instead of just a big bank of cabinetry on the back wall.

I'm struggling with the long wall, because I always wanted a sink looking out the window. But to get that I have to put it way down looking out the covered porch.

With the type of lifestyle you're describing, I would want the kitchen in the eating nook area so you're able to look have a bank of windows there to look out at your acreage. And I wouldn't want a separate formal dining room that I expect will see little use. If you already have friends that hang out in the kitchen wouldn't you want the dining area nearer to the kitchen as well?

I think it's a lovely plan. I just wonder if it really fits your lifestyle.

Yes, thank you, I was able to save a larger version of your plan so that I can read the dimensions.

The working part of your kitchen is 179.5" (assuming 1.5" counter overhang for the lower cab run) x 156" (the 14' width is outer dimension, 13' is the likely interior dimension). The nook is 156" x 123.5"

Given that, I don't see how you can fit a 6 x 3 island and a 6 x 6.5" island into your kitchen. Or at least I don't see a way to do that.

I'm not keen on the placement of the double wall ovens. They are almost like an afterthought, especially since the nearest landing zone is across the aisle on the island. Is that within 48"? Or is it more? Also not thrilled that the pantry is around the corner from the kitchen. I'd find that inconvenient.

Are double ovens a must have? Would a 30" double oven range work? Or could you do a single oven under the counter? You don't have a lot of wall space to work with and you don't want your sink in an island so that really limits options for you.

Would you be willing to do a long banquette bench in the nook? That would allow me to steal about 18" more for the kitchen, which would help.

Funkycamper, we did consider eliminating the breakfast room and eating casually at the island for breakfast, so it is a true eat in kitchen.. but I worry we would miss that room- I love seeing a built in bench and table in breakfast rooms. As for the dining room- it is a bit far away from the kitchen, but we sit down for dinner with our kids as many nights as we can, and they help set and clear the table, so we do use the actual dining room regularly in our house :) I'd hate to lose that in favor of eating casually in the breakfast room all the time. I guess I can overlook it being a little removed from the kitchen since it is family use, and entertaining is mostly kitchen and living room - and I did not mention before, we will either right now or eventually be finishing a walkout basement in this plan that allows lots of entertaining room.

Lisa_a: yes to everything you said :) Like I said, I'm just running in circles at this point - knowing that i love the right half of the plan but not married to anything on the left side. Trying to figure out how to create a kitchen and work area (mudroom, laundry) that I love, without ruining the look of the house:

Double ovens would be nice if possible but I am flexible. Can do a range with ovens or range with one oven and an additional wall oven.

By long banquette bench, you mean a built in bench? I was hoping to do just that. And a table with one or 2 chairs. It doesn't have to be huge, but a family of 5 could squeeze in over eggs :)

I have discarded the idea of the double islands.. I just want something that doesn't look like a builder grade bank of cabinets. Something pretty and unique and .. you know :)
I can get away with enlarging this side of the house a couple feet if needed, could also steal a couple extra feet of garage in a small section to include a pantry, maybe a reach in? I also am not completely opposed to including something (would have to enlarge?) between the kitchen and living room, as long as it isn't completely closed off.. maybe half that length could have something? I just don't know how I'd rearrange in the space given.

I hope that helps. I appreciate your taking a look at it!! I do wonder at this point if it would be better to skip the stock plan customization and start from scratch...ugh.

I was actually just thinking of still having a dining area but in a more open-concept setting. Not eliminating it. But if you use it and love it, you should keep it.

I guess I was just thinking of myself and how I love being surrounded by windows and natural light, and looking at my outside views while cooking, so I would prefer the cooking by the windows and the eating at a banquette or table elsewhere. Heck, that's not true, I'd like windows there as well, lol! This conversation is sure making me appreciate my L-layout where I can have windows at both.

With an active, growing family and someone who loves to cook, it's possible that looking at other plans might be your best option to end up with a kitchen you truly love.

You didn't ask but I'll add: with your size of family and the many years of laundry ahead of you, I would opt for a laundry room closer to the bedrooms where most laundry is generated. In our former home, the best thing we ever did was adding a laundry center to the second floor where the bedrooms were located. Much easier to take the few kitchen items upstairs than to cart all the clothes/bathroom items down (or across the house). Just a thought you might want to consider.

Best wishes on this project. It's a big one and overwhelming, especially when you're still busy raising little ones.

If you can get the laundry room on the second floor with the bedrooms, that would be such a coup.

I understand your desire for something that isn't builder-grade, but in general the layout of your cabinets/sink/appliances isn't the place to get that effect. While some aspects of layout are aesthetic (symmetry, centering, deliberately aligning or not aligning things), the vast majority of layout concerns are functional. And so you get a lot of repeat elements across many kitchens because those things are far and away the most functional.

To make your kitchen feel more custom and special, I'd put together a general layout that will work well in your space, and then think about what finishes or architectural details you could add that would make it feel special. Fancy moldings, a featured bank of cabinets in a different style or color, bold artwork, wallpaper, painting the ceiling, a tile wall, etc.

My condo is pretty humble, both in size and style, so I didn't want to go too bold. But I angled one corner closet to echo our angled fireplace on the other side of the living room (so that room is no longer a standard condo rectangle), I added a wide arch where a standard door to the kitchen used to be, and I am getting custom leaded glass inserts for my uppers.

None of those things affected the basic layout of the kitchen (placement of sink, peninsula, fridge, etc.), but whole space feels a lot more special.

You already have an arch planned, which is a great help. I'd think about ways you could echo that curve around the room. An arched range hood, a curved island, etc. Maybe an arched window?

Okay, here's what I came up with on my first go-round.

I nixed the pantry opening into the mudroom/laundry, enlarged it and made it a walk-in pantry accessible from the kitchen. I recessed the standard depth fridge so that it doesn't jut out into the kitchen more than a counter depth model.

I eliminated the double oven niche and moved the ovens into the working kitchen area. If you start any meals on the cook top before moving them to the ovens, you'll be glad to have them closer and not two aisles apart. Plus, it eliminates the risk of any kiddies barreling up the basement stairs or from the mudroom and into an open oven door.

I moved the DW to the right side of the sink. If you use the counter between clean-up sink and cook top as an additional prep area, you'll be glad to have the DW out of the way.

You could center the cook top and hood between ovens and sink or you could leave them as I have them, with a longer section of counter between cook top and clean-up sink. This comes down to function over form.

I created a window seat in the nook area to gain 24" more, which helped make room for the DW, sink, cook top and ovens on the same wall. A 42 x 60 table will seat 6 on a regular basis. If you purchase a table with a 12" leaf, you can then seat 8.

I swapped the swing of the door to the porch so that you can open it completely and fold it back against the window. We have this set-up in our kitchen. We find the counter right next to the door a handy spot to set down dishes on their way out to the patio and deck, especially when we grill (where will your grill be?).

You didn't mention MW but I added a MW drawer to the island. The kids will be able to use it, plus having it next to the pantry and fridge makes it convenient to reheat left-overs, make popcorn or other snacks.

I eliminated the broom closet near the table. That seems like an odd place to have it, IMO. Surely you can find room for these items in the mudroom/laundry room. I kept the sense of division between LR and kitchen with display/bookcases, facing each other, at either end of the arched opening.

Okay, on to making the island unique for you. I tried to fit in two islands but I felt that too much function was given up to make them work. So I gave you a different type of seating to your island and a combination of closed and open storage facing the LR. The thick, smaller circle under the seating area is a pedestal support. You could do the top in the same surface as the island or you could do a different top, either metal or wood, to differentiate it from the rest of the island.

Here are some examples:

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by La Grange Kitchen & Bath Designers Cheryl D & Company

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Edina Kitchen & Bath Designers The Woodshop of Avon

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Brisbane Interior Designers & Decorators InterDesign Studio

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Seattle Cabinets & Cabinetry Warmington & North

I didn't put a dia on the seating area. If you do wood or metal, you can do a larger dia more easily than if you choose stone counters. Just don't go below the aisle minimums I listed so that you have plenty of room for people to move past those seated at island and table.

You could also do an island shaped like these islands:

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Minneapolis Interior Designers & Decorators Martha O'Hara Interiors

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[Beach Style Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/beach-style-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2110) by Chatham Architects & Building Designers Polhemus Savery DaSilva

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Minneapolis Design-Build Firms Wooddale Builders

This post was edited by lisa_a on Tue, Oct 14, 14 at 17:17

Lisa,
Lovely examples and I so appreciate the feedback and advice. Is there a diagram I should be looking at where you've made changes?

Oops! I edited my post to include the revised lay-out that I forgot to include.

Hi Lisa! I love your diagram, thank you! Sorry I'm just now getting around to looking it over - I'm having a baby in 2 weeks (why am I planning to build while having a baby?! lol!)

Couple of questions:

1. If I add 2 feet to the kitchen/ move the wall left that is the garage wall, that will give me a longer run on the fridge wall. I really think I'm going to. Could I fit oven and microwave combo next to fridge? I'm thinking about getting a range with single oven on adjacent wall.

2. You didn't really give your opinion on if you like the clean up sink down at the end.. I'm interested to hear if you think the layout works, given what I prefer with not having clean up area on the island, in the way of gathering company.

3. My biggest concern in aesthetic is that there isn't really a central focal point behind the island. Is that necessary? The island is centered in the living room view, but then the range is to the left of center, sink with window to the right. I wish I could have a window nice and big, centered behind the island, but this floor plan just doesn't allow it.

4. Any opinion on moving the range to where the refrigerator is? I think it would mean the pantry going elsewhere again... but similar to this pic (sadly without the nice central windows).. also I know that if I consider putting a micro/oven in like I mentioned in #1, that cuts the pantry too :( I would be ok with a single closet door pantry, and can store extras in the laundry room.. it's all I have now and works ok for the most part.

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[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Raleigh Interior Designers & Decorators Driggs Designs

Hi Funkycamper,
I've toyed with doing just that, moving the breakfast nook wall down to even with the living room wall, or maybe a foot or 2 bumped out, and using a clean up sink wall there. If possible, I could use a walkway where the french doors currently are, and include a very small built in nook table in a portion of the covered porch area -- because we don't really need a 23' covered porch! But I can't really visualize how to work that, and I think at this point I've even confused the architect (who seemed to find the layout of the master bedroom a breeze but can't understand what I'm looking for in the kitchen :)

To both Jillius and Funkycamper, since the master is down, I don't want to put the laundry room upstairs.. but hubby has suggested putting a laundry chute upstairs. Have never had one :) I do walk across the house now for laundry and it doesn't really bother me.. my 8 and 5 year old bring their own laundry down now, woohoo!
Thank you again for helping! I really appreciate it.

I assume you're quite busy with preparations for your new baby )), but just another idea.

I moved the the window over the sink next to an enlarged sliding porch door and moved the main sink to a peninsula. Since you seem to be open to enlarging the kitchen area a few feet you may consider a longer island than I have in the below rendering. I assume you'll spend more time on the deck than the covered porch, so if the deck door will be in the LR, the peninsula wouldn't be much on the way.