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dprae

Kitchen layout advice

dprae
9 years ago

Hello,

We are starting a new build and have been working on a couple of kitchen layouts. We'd appreciate any comments on the layout of this kitchen plan.

Wishlist / Notes:
1. sink has to have windows in front of it (view to off the deck, neighbour's house is on the right)
2. wife doesn't want sink on island, however if there is a strong argument, would reconsider
3. she really likes the "breakfast center," planning on having the coffee maker and toaster here
4. "Butler's Pantry" is actually just a plain pantry

In particular, this doesn't seem like the ideal triangle, but it looks like the fridge is in the best place for the layout. We wanted a double swing door fridge, but will compromise for a single swing as its in the corner.

Thanks in advance - there is a lot of good information here.

Comments (19)

  • dprae
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Here is a larger view of the floor for context

  • GreenDesigns
    9 years ago

    This is an expensive house to build, with an indordnate amount of cabinetry poorly laid out. 3/4 of the space shown is kitchen related, all with cabinets. The butler's pantry is completely useless as drawn, as is the breakfast center. One would expect those type of spaces as transition zones between the kitchen and formal dining area, yet there appears to be no formal dining area.

    This isn't a buildable plan as shown. It's an oversized kitchen without enough usable people space attached to it. Something is badly awry with the scale of your planning. You either need the 8000 square foot house to go with that kitchen, or you need to reduce the size of the kitchen by more than 2/3.

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    There is not enough space to have chairs at the end of the island and chairs backing into the dining room. I think the problem with this design is that the island is inordinately large for the size of the house. Do 6 people really eat breakfast together? And if they do why do you need both a breakfast center and an enormous island? If not, then the island that seats two or possibly three would be a better choice. Most of the mark up in homebuilding and kitchens in particular comes from using too much cabinetry so the other poster's advice should be considered as there does seem to be more kitchen than house.
    The location of the Butler's pantry with window appears to be occupying prime location, this is where the breakfast center should be located. The current breakfast center and storage could be reworked into one room which could hold the freezer, be an excellent pantry and still have space left over for storage of other items. Also it could have a door from the garage side to the kitchen side which would make it very handy with the groceries.
    The really big problem with this design is that it appears to be a two-story house with no bed and bath on the first story. You really need this. Even if you are not thinking that you will age in place you may need it because of accidents that prevent you from using the stairs or because you have overnight guests who cannot use the stairs or that you would prefer not be in the main living quarters of the family.
    Also if you moved the breakfast center to the current Butler's pantry, you would have to move the door between the two. This would help your design in that both the double oven and refrigerator could then be moved away from the doorway. Right now someone going through the doorway can be blocked by either an open refrigerator or the open oven.
    The staircase, while beautiful, is out of proportion to the space available in the living room. And it while it is all very interesting that there is a large piano in the room. You need to insert little drawings of the sofa, chairs and coffee table, lamp table and rugs as you envision them in that room. I think that you will find they don't really fit... Unless of course they are all custom something too.
    I cannot read exactly what is written along the edges of the living room but if the idea is that the living room is dropped down one step below the dining room and entryway there is not enough space to do that. It is too dangerous and you will end up having to put railings almost all of the way around the living room and it will be very visually distracting.
    I am not sure who drew up this plan but it looks to me like a bad excuse to charge you a lot of money.

  • ainelane
    9 years ago

    You have a whole lot of different types of storages spaces broken up into little bits. Storage room, WIC, butler's pantry, landing (not sure what that is for), mudroom, breakfast centre......so many little bits!

    Will the laundry room be in the mudroom or will it be upstairs? If it's in the mudroom space, I'd be upset about having given up so much chopped up storage space and having a small/cramped laundry room.

    The other thing that strikes me as weird is having a built in desk in the middle of the dining room!

    I'm not sure about the fridge stuck in the corner like that. I think that would feel off.

    The "breakfast centre" idea sounds appealing in theory, I guess. But this execution doesn't seem desirable to me at all. The space given for the breakfast and pantry areas could most definitely be reworked to be more desirable and interesting.

    And lastly, as has been mentioned, seating for 6 at a massive island RIGHT NEXT to seating for 10 looks weird.
    Those are my thoughts. Hopefully some of the pros can help you rework it with new drawings!

    This post was edited by AineLane on Mon, Oct 20, 14 at 19:21

  • Jillius
    9 years ago

    I agree with everybody else that the island looks way big and the staircase makes furniture layout difficult in the living room.

    Other thoughts: there's a lot happening between the garage and kitchen. It enormously chops up the space. You have:
    1) a mudroom
    2) a walk-in-closet
    3) a storage closet
    4) a breakfast center
    5) a pantry
    6) a giant landing in the garage

    And all you really need is:
    a) a mudroom
    b) a pantry

    You could also have:
    c) a separate hall closet

    But really (c) is optional because the front entry and garage are so close to each other that it's quite possible to have one mudroom/front hall closet serving both entrances. And that would be handier anyway. In other houses that have a garage entrance mudroom separate from the front entrance mudroom, if you come in the garage and drop your stuff there, you have to go back to the garage to get your stuff when you want to leave again. You can't just walk out the front door and grab your purse from the front entrance mudroom (because you left that purse by the garage when you came in).

    I would focus on streamlining/cutting down on all these little rooms and adding all the extra space produced by that to something you'd really like -- a larger kitchen, maybe? And in the process of streamlining, create a straight walkway from the garage into the kitchen that goes by the pantry door. Right now, you have to make three tight turns carrying groceries to get in them in the kitchen from the garage. That is going to be difficult and annoying every time.

  • marcolo
    9 years ago

    Half the house is the kitchen--to the point where you literally have no room for a couch!--yet you have no room to squeeze between the island and table if people are sitting in both places, your traffic patterns all crisscross, and you have nowhere to set blazing hot pans coming out of the oven unless you turn around and grab someone seated at the island by their hair so you can throw them off their stool.

    Also, the only way your family will be able to find its way through that warren of rooms at the front of the house is if you train them using cheese.

  • blfenton
    9 years ago

    It looks like you are building a grand home and it will probably be beautiful but unfortunately it will also be inefficient.

    There is a lot of "storage" bits and pieces to this home - pantry, breakfast pantry, full height storage in the DR (with a desk? - No), storage room, mudroom, large walk-in closet. This seems to be very unorganized despite its attempt to provide storage.``

    The powder room is a real hike from the kitchen and DR where most people will be congregating. You will have to walk through I don';t know how many door ways, and real rabbit warren.

    The walk-in-closet is poorly planned. You have a lot of space devoted to door swings - expensive door swings. You are better off making it a standard closet with bifold or track doors OR doors that swing out and a properly planned closet with yet even more storage.

    Have you posted your home floor plans on the Building Forum for advice? My computer is acting out or else I would post the link for you `but it seems I can't do that today.

    But perhaps you can track it down through the kitchen forum.

  • dprae
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Haha :) I like the rat maze analogy to the place. I can see that. Thanks for all the helpful tips. Here's what I intend to change, and further questions:

    CHANGES

    1. Thanks for the perspective on the kitchen cabinetry. I've looked closely and will re draw a couple of things.

    2. I appreciate the space planning advice - particularly with regards to something like swapping the pantry and breakfast center, and then slotting the freezer in there too. I see how I can rework the double door fridge, and place a tech center beside there in the kitchen area. Great tip!

    3. Desk: I asked our designer for a small tech center, and I actually didn't realize that we have this huge azz desk in the dining room! I've nixed it out. You look at these plans so often and miss the obvious. Thanks for pointing it out.

    4. Island: you're right, the two chairs at the end probably are not necessary.

    5. Walk-in-closet: yes, the door swings are nice and symmetrical, but expensive. I'll talk to the designer about swinging them out into the hallway.

    6. Traffic pattern: the 3 point turn with groceries is certainly not ideal. Will have to ponder traffic flow.

    7. Other features: The great room and stairs is still a "disaster" and a work in progress with the designer. I agree they are out of proportion, and we're talking to the gen contractor and stairs people to sort it out. I wanted to get some focused advice on the kitchen / pantry area, but we will be working on the other parts of the house for sure. For perspective, we plan on having 3 bdrms + laundry + bath + 1 ensuite upstairs. Developed basement. I'm looking at part of the WIC/storage/mud room as a possible elevator shaft in case of future disability.

    QUESTIONS

    1. With the deleted desk in the dining room, do you have any suggestions what to do with that wall? I'm thinking we have enough cabinetry, so I'm not too fond of putting a hutch/buffet/table there. That probably wouldn't be useful at all. Some ideas from Houzz include (1) pot lights focused on a huge art piece, (2) stone type wall with some lighting accents like electric candles or something to that effect, (3) big mirror.

    2. I've read that a freezer works best in stable temperatures. Do you agree that the freezer should be inside rather than in the garage (where the temp would fluctuate between freezing and +25C)?

    I'll post a follow up drawing when our designer gets back to us with the changes. Thanks for your advice!

  • blfenton
    9 years ago

    The dining room - for now I wouldn't worry about that big wall. It may be that you might want to put a buffet in the room with artwork above it or a mirror or something else decorative. The buffet could be a family piece or something that co-ordinates with your table or perhaps your own decorating style. You can make it co-ordinate with, but not match, your kitchen cabinets.

    I can see that wall being a work in progress.

    I hope you will continue to post your changes. It looks like it will be a great house.

    This post was edited by blfenton on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 11:55

  • blfenton
    9 years ago

    My computer is cooperating today so here, if you are interested, is the link to the building a home forum.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Building a home forum

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago

    I don't have time right now to draft up an idea more fully but here's a start:

    I swapped garage landing with mudroom. This gives you a straighter route to the kitchen and gives you a window in the mudroom, too.

    Your hallway is going to be a dark place because it doesn't have any windows opening directly into it. Along with the other things you're addressing, I'd look to see if there's a way to bring more light into the hallway.

    I also swapped out the swing doors for the walk-in closet for double pocket doors. This will allow you to use the sides of the walk-in space, not just the end wall.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago

    I had a little time this afternoon to tweak your lay-out a bit more. I focused on the mudroom, pantry, walk-in storage and kitchen only. I did not address the stairs, which as others have pointed out are not well designed at all. If you can move exterior walls, I suggest moving the entry forward and having the stairs spill out towards the hall.

    I started with the landing/mudroom areas flipped as I proposed in my above post. I added a window and window seat at the end of that long hall. It will visually and literally make the space seem lighter and brighter.

    I changed the lay-out of the pantry, eliminating the pretty part of it; it's not a public space, save your money to spend elsewhere. It's a large pantry but even so, because you're going to put a freezer in it, you should have HVAC vents added to the space (freezers create heat, need to have air circulate).

    I bumped the 2 x 6 wall over slightly to accommodate an aisle between pantry and wall; not sure if that will mess up location of support beams, etc.

    I changed the walk-in closet to a regular coat closet facing a large walk-in storage closet.

    I moved the ovens next to the "mech" space and put the fridge next to it (that's why I had to move the 2 x 6 wall over a bit, needed room to put these side by side). This puts the working part of your kitchen all together and eliminates any issues with opening fridge doors wide enough to pull out freezer drawers. If you said, I missed whether you're doing a built-in fridge or a freestanding, counter depth fridge. I assumed the latter and based my measurements on how deep mine is (excluding door handles).

    I moved the breakfast bar/beverage center to the DR. This placement makes soooo much more sense than where you had it in the hallway opposite the pantry. It will be much useful and accessible when you entertain.

    I don't know how much storage you need or whether you can add a header to the 2 x 6 wall but if you can get by with a little less walk-in storage and can add a header to recess the freezer, that's worth considering. It eliminates the heat issue for the pantry. It also moves the freezer closer to the kitchen, which is another plus.

    I added a prep sink to your island and moved seating towards the DR end of the island. I wasn't crazy about having seating backing up to ovens and fridge. That could become a congestion point.

    If your table is only 42", you can either add the extra 6" to the aisle between cook top and island or you can lengthen the island.

    The last thing I did was to swap the placement of DW and trash pull-out. This gets the DW out of a secondary prep area and puts the trash pull-out closer to the primary prep area.

  • dprae
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Wow! Thanks for illustrating the changes to our plans, that's much appreciated. I really like the more direct route from the garage, I'll run that by the wife, and definitely eliminates those sharp turns with groceries. Thanks for the layout adjustments to the appliances and furniture too. We will have to ponder your points.

    Regarding the trash: do you think the best place is by the sink there, or in the island (or both)? Similarly with the dishwasher, we've been having arguments were to arrange that. I was thinking similar to what you have drawn, the wife liked the opposite. What about a 2nd dishwasher?

    Do you generally find it helpful to have a second smaller sink on the island? We were thinking it'd be nice not to have anything on the island for eating and prep work.

    Thanks for your advice!

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    Have you considered putting a two-sided fireplace between the dining room and living room?

  • marcolo
    9 years ago

    The prep sink is not a "second sink" for extra overflow. It's there because there needs to be a sink in that location. Otherwise the prep workflow crosses the entire kitchen, bumping into the island in the middle.

  • trueblue89
    9 years ago

    love the idea of a two-sided fireplace, we have been looking for a same idea and this thread came up when doing a search for ideas. The best I found was an eco-feu model but they are a little pricey so we are still searching. It is ethanol so we wouldn't have to install a gas line or vent to the area.

    Here is a link that might be useful: fireplace idea link

  • HomeChef59
    9 years ago

    I generally like the improvements proposed by Lisa_a. I would suggest moving the double oven to the cooktop wall adjacent to the mechanical area. Put cabinets and countertop where the double oven was located. This way you have landing zone for refrigerator and ovens.

    Have you considered windows on each side of the range top? Is there a nice view? That wall will become a focal wall. Why not a counter height casement window on each side of the range top. I designed these into a previous house. I really liked having looking out the windows and stirring pots at the same time.

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    I like to sit snd watch the dawn with my morning cup of coffee I wouldn't want to hang out in the pantry to enjoy it. It looks like there are no windows in any area that you are eating....that's a big drawback.

  • szruns
    9 years ago

    I don't have any real expertise, as I've just done this once in my own house, and, I've gotten discouraging feedback, too, when I posted my kitchen plan months ago . . .

    But, really, looking at your first plan, I'd urge you to FIRE your designer. S/he is a moron. There are so many glaring problems that even *I* can see, that I really, truly, think you should get a new professional to help you plan out this space perfectly. You clearly are going to build a grand space, and you should have it perfect. Any designer who would give you a plan that has so many huge problems (a desk in the DINING room? Ovens opening to the back of seated guests? Fridge stashed in the corner, and guests/kids/grandmas needing to squeeze between diners and the ovens to get to it?)... should NOT be on your payroll!

    I would not try to redesign your space, as I am no expert in design, but I do know a few things about hiring (and firing) people, and I just want to encourage you to, truly, fire your designer and start fresh with someone better!