So is that the refrigerator next to the oven? If it is, then consider swapping them.

IMHO not having a safe landing space next to an oven is a safety issue. To have to turn blindly and set down a hot pan behind you, when possibly another person may be in the way, is a problem that is best avoided if you can.

Also consider a prep sink on the island.

Thanks Julie,
If we swapped the fridge with the oven the fride door swing will clash with the pantry.

I do not have counter next to my wall oven and I dont find this a problem. I do wish I had considered the ovens that open to the side rather than down, my large oven door creates quite a reach for me, but I am short.

I would try to keep fridge and trash towards the other room. People are always in my fridge and trash, and I dont want them in my way while accessing those.

More drawers. It appears you have lots of base cabinets rather than drawers.

It looks like you might have room for a deeper island, possibly putting a trash cabinet that opens towards DW behind the B18. That would put trash near DW, and prep area (island). Possibly a cookbook space on the other end opposite the trash. I hope that made sense. Not sure if you have enough space to push the seating area back 18". Even if you ended up with two trash cans, some houses need that, not sure about your family.

And try not to dread the review! Better to fix what you can now than be stuck with it later! Hopefully you'll get some more input. Have fun!

Invest in either a prep sink for the island, or rollerblades.

It looks like your island has a 10" overhang and I'm guessing for seating. If so, that's shallow. Off the top of my head the minimum at bar height is 12" and counter height 15". I could totally be of, but I know they're all bigger than 10. We don't know what's going on past the kitchen, if it is for seating, can you just make it overhang more?

I agree with a landing spot without turning around, but then again we always have obstacles (read: dogs) on the floor when it's least helpful. If it's a busy kitchen with kids, dogs, then I would think it would be an issue. If it's just two of you, not so much.

What are the items next to the fridge? Could a prep/bar sink go in there?

And drawers, drawers, drawers.

ditto prep sink in the island. One of the most common paths in the kitchen is between the fridge and the sink. That will also turn your island into a prep powerhouse.

Personally I don't like corner pantries as they separate countertop areas. I have an island close to my oven but rarely turn around with hot items to set it on the island. The countertop near range is the most used in our kitchen.

I have a similar layout and I opted to go with a 36" conventional stove / oven combo to make it work. I also thankfully added a prep sink which I use constantly. I have my fridge aligned with the stove and island aisle, which is essential to making this layout work. Also keep in mind that if you get a side by side door fridge, your fridge landing space is your island, not the counter to the right because the door will partially block that counter when opened.

If you choose to have the fridge and wall oven on the wall where shown, definitely swap positions so that your fridge is in the aisle and you can use counter to the right for oven set downs.

I have the dishwasher to the right of the sink and the trash on the left. This flows well when waning up as we scrape plates into trash, sometimes rinse in sink, then place in dw. I have microwave in island.

Really think about how you are going to function in your new kitchen. Without a prep sink, you will be carrying pasta pots pretty far to drain in sink. Good luck.

I also wanted to mention that the 54" aisle between stovetop and the island is quite large. I have 42" counter to counter and it's perfect, even considering that I have stove and microwave drawer opening into aisle.

Please don't dread feedback on your plan. We are just pointing out some things you might not have thought of, in order to help You. You make the decisions based on what you think will work best for your household.

That 54" is too much in my book. I only have 36 when taking the knobs on the cooktop into account, maybe 37-38" cabinet to cabinet, and I find its a very easy pivot to that prep sink. I wouldn't like 54" if it was just me in the kitchen, and I would be afraid it would invite too much traffic or standing around in my work space.

I'm also in the minority, but I am not a fan of corner pantries. I took one out here and was elated with how much larger my kitchen felt. There is a lot of wasted space just so you can open a door and stand there calling it a walk-in pantry. They are cheaper than cabinets and I do understand drywall pantries for that reason but I really dislike the corner versions. I question how useful the cabinets to the left of the fridge will be there separated from everything else. I'd put tall pantry cabinets there and scoot your ovens toward the corner -- you have counter and island landing space as well as being closer to the cooktop. That would also allow the fridge to not be stuck behind the island so much. If you are planning a built-in, it might give you room for a larger one, if that appeals.

I love the 96" window over the kitchen sink (oh! to have space like that!), but I'm not quite clear on where the refrigerator is and what people are calling the pantry. Can you please clarify what is in corner and what is on the other side of the oven, and what room this kitchen opens into? Thank you.

Swap the fridge and the ovens. You are in and out of your fridge a lot more than your ovens so you want the fridge closer to the work triangle. If there is a problem with door swing, actually I'm not sure if you mean the fridge door will hit the pantry and not open fully or if it will hit the door of the pantry, however, put a filler between the pantry and fridge to solve the problem with the door swing.

It looks like you have a 38" opening into the pantry, but you can frame the opening to be narrower and use a narrower door.

I am with the others, I would get rid of the corner pantry. It is in the middle of your work triangle which may or may not become an issue with traffic in and out of it colliding with the traffic going to the fridge.

Your trash pull-out goes where ever you plan on doing your prep work. If prep zone is on the island then that's where it goes, if between the sink and stove top then that's where it goes.

I have a pull-out in my prep area but I also have a garbage under the clean-up sink for scrapping dishes for the DW.

Honestly, I'd get rid of the pantry. You can get far more usable storage out of a wall of floor-to-ceiling cabinets, your island can increase, you'll get more counter space around your perimeter as well, and (IMO) it will look better visually.

Unless you have a pantry big enough to be a second kitchen, it's not worth it.

Seating Overhang

Cal_quail is correct. The minimum recommended seating overhang for counter-height seating is 15" - and that's 15" of clear knee/leg space. I.e., after accounting for the finished end panel/decorative door on the back of the island cabinets. That "est 10" is probably more like 9".

So, the depth of the island should be at least 41.5":
1.5" of overhang in front of the cabinets + 24" deep cabinets +
1" decorative door/finished end panel + 15" of overhang = 41.5"

Supports for the Seating Overhang

Follow the "6 & 10 Rule"

• For 3cm stone: any overhang > 10" will need a corbel or other support. How much?
  Overhang inches - 10" = # inches for support

For 2cm stone: any overhang > 6" will need a corbel or other support. How much?
Overhang inches - 6" = # inches for support

....with a corbel or support every 30" of unsupported overhang (linear distance)

If you don't want corbels or legs, consider the "CounterBalance" system instead.

Here's a thread that discusses the "rule" and describes what can be done for support (with pictures!):
granite fabrication questions..what do you think!

Do you have a layout with all dimensions marked? The bottom wall is not marked and the side measurements do not include the pantry wall - I assume the walls are 4.5" thick.

Also, could we see a rough layout of the entire first floor so we can see how the kitchen relates to the rest of the house and the traffic patterns?

Is that a table space behind the island or do you have a separate DR elsewhere?

I second (or third or fourth) the prep sink on the island!

And, move that trash pullout back to the island. Far more trash and recyclables are generated during prepping and cooking than cleaning up and for a much longer period of time - so the best location is in the Prep Zone and near the Cooking Zone. My biggest regret in my kitchen is that my trash pullout is next to my cleanup sink and not in my Prep Zone...I have to cross a 6' aisle to get to it (often dripping) and I need it far more while prepping and cooking than I do during cleanup! [You spend over 80% of your time prepping (70%) and cooking (10%) and only 20% cleaning up.]

If the trash pullout is on the end of the island, then it can be easily accessed from all three primary work zones (Prep, Cooking, Cleanup). If you have cabinet room to spare, you could have two...or put in a 2-bin trash/recycle pullout in the island and a 15" wide 1-bin trash pullout next to the cleanup sink.

Just so you know, aisle widths should be measured counter edge-to-counter edge, not cabinet-to-cabinet as your layout shows.

The actual aisle widths are 3" narrower than you think they are. So, those 43" aisles are really 40" wide and the 54" is really 51" (that last one is too wide, IMHO, b/w the island and cooktop - I would reduce it to no more than 48" - 42" to 45" would be even better).

Thank you for all the wonderful suggestions. Some of you wanted to see my whole floor plan...so here you go. The house itself is under construction...so I can't change anything structurally. We are putting a butlers pantry in the hallway leading to dining room.

About fridge - we are bumping the wall behind the fridge, so it is going to be a full depth fridge, but will sit at counter depth.

And we are definitely adding drawers. That will be in the next version of design.

Will the layout allow a bigger island, especially a longer one? we are thinking of 66"* 41.5. That would reduce the walkway around sink and fridge to ~3ft.

So from your stovetop to your fireplace is about 44 feet. That is an enormous space. You need to consider how you will decorate and design to make it work without having a dance floor in the middle of the space.

Regarding the trash in island as some have recommended above, with same layout, I opted to forego the trash pull out in the island. Instead, when I am prepping, I use a large colander for scraps and stick with the one trash next to the clean up sink.

I don't think you can make it wider (make the kitchen aisles smaller) but you could make it as long as you wanted into the breakfast room if it will be your seating.

Now I'm confused. Which is the proper floor plan - the one with the pantry in the corner or the one with the pantry at the end. Which one is to be critiqued?

My .02 is that the dining room is quite a hike from the kitchen. I would hate carrying dishes of food and everything else that far. And then back.

Gardenerlorisc, well said. . . that was my same reaction. The DR is just too far from the kitchen to be user friendly.

Gardener & Texas, I agree with the distance to dining room...we tried to change but with the restrictions on buildable area we couldn't do anything about it. The plan has been approved and construction is underway, so no point in second-guessing it. We will use dining room only occasionally when people are over. Kitchen, breakfast room and family room will be the hub of this house. Other than that I expect heavy use out of my favorite mud room.

Just a quick observation. It looks like the door way from the garage into the house forces you to walk through the mudroom. Is there a reason the door from the garage into the house isn't across from that coat closet?

"...the door way from the garage into the house forces you to walk through the mudroom..."

Garage entrances are generally used by the family - so going through the Mudroom makes sense. In fact, it will help minimize outerwear clutter in the rest of the house. The tendency for most people is to deposit their jackets, etc. in the most convenient location. By placing the Mudroom in that location, you have a very good chance people will actually put their coats, boots, etc. away in the cubbies where they belong instead of in the hall or FR, etc. If someone has to go out of their way to put something away, it often does not get done.

I think the garage door is well placed.

In fact, depending on the porch (if that's a porch in the front) floor level compared to the Mudroom floor, you might consider a door from the porch to the Mudroom as well. Our neighbors did that and they like the fact that they can get to the Mudroom from the front of the house (from playing/working outside) or the garage or, in their case, the backyard. (You wouldn't be able to connect the Mudroom to the backyard in your layout - but you could connect it to the front.)

The closet under the stairs - is it meant to be a coat closet or a storage closet? It would probably make a better storage closet than a coat closet - but you don't appear to have a coat closet anywhere else - not even by the front door for guests. We have a single 3' coat closet for family & guests and it's far too small!

A thought: Powder Room near Study - if you can make the change, would you consider moving the toilet & sink to the LR wall? That way, if you ever need the Study as a bedroom, you can put in a door that leads into the bedroom (Study).

Buehl - that totally makes sense.

A couple of ideas to spark discussion:

[Click/Select a picture to see a larger version]

Layout #1:

Layout #1 - Zones

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Layout #2

Layout #2 - Zones

Thank you so much for taking the time to post alternate plans Buehl. I am so impressed and touched by the passion folks in this group have :-)

I will review it with my husband once he wakes up.

I love, love,love the door from front porch idea...but we don't have a front porch...the buildable are is so tight and a covered porch is out of question. The house is built in a community with very strict HOA rules. We couldn't even get a covered stoop due to buildable area in this lot. We had push so hard and came up with the idea of pushing the main entrance inside to get a covered cave like stoop. It was such a big struggle to get that approved, because they don't like messing with the front of the house.

You're welcome!

I forgot to mention that the range wall in Layout #2 is 3" deeper than normal to make the standard-depth refrigerator closer to counter-depth. Base cabinets are 27" deep and upper cabinets are 15" deep on that wall. If you cannot get 3" deeper cabinets for the base, then I recommend pulling standard depth cabinets (24") 3" out from the wall. You should be able to get 15" deep uppers. We have four 15" deep uppers over a standard-depth counter and I love the extra space those 3" give me! I wish I had 15" deep uppers on my sink wall!

BTW....that is a range in Layout #2, not a cooktop.

I'm sorry to hear about your HOA...that's one of the reasons I've been on our HOA Board for many years - so it doesn't get out of hand. Some HOAs around here are ridiculous!

We are incorporating some of the suggestions from here. For example
1) the prep sink idea.
2) We decided to keep the corner pantry. I simply like the feel of a walk-in pantry I would get out of the corner pantry.
3) We have made the island bigger - it is going to make the clearance a little smaller - but we saw some homes with that much clearance and decided we would be okay with it.
4) Fridge - We are moving the fridge to the extreme right so the clearance being less due to bigger island will not impact the opening of fridge. We are creating a cantilever in the garage so even though it will be a full-depth fridge it will look like counter depth. Moving the fridge away from the oven/microwave means a couple of extra steps from the cooktop - but it is now closer to family room - so kids are not entering kitchen to get water. With prep sink we think the distance should be okay. My favorite part about moving the fridge is that it creates a nice little nook now between oven/ microwave and fridge.
5) Adding tons of drawers.
We love keeping the trash closer to prep sink - we have asked our designer - she feels it won't fit in well. We are going to press her to try...but not sure if that will happen.

The distance between cooktop and island is only going to increase with bigger island - because we need a healthy distance between island and the corner pantry door (I know corner pantry design is killing us - but I like it). My husband and I both cook at the same time - he cooks I chop etc...so having that distance is in a way better for us so we don't constantly get in each other's way.

As for deep upper cabinets - I probably should have mentioned this - but I am barely 5 ft tall....I can only reach the front half of the first shelf and may be a little bit of second shelf. That is the reason why I swapped upper cabinets for additional windows near sink. We also have at 7 ft butlers pantry in the area between breakfast and dining - so that should provide good storage.

Can't wait to share the design once it is complete. Thanks again for all the wonderful suggestions. You guys rock!