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jhzr2

Nailing into plywood overhead - nails bounce

JHZR2
9 years ago

Posting in kitchens because it is my kitchen renovation. It's likely an entirely stupid situation, which we can all laugh about, or laugh at me over.

Essentially,doing a kitchen renovation, and my plan is to install a tin ceiling overhead. Put up plywood after removing the old plaster and lathe and insulating/rewiring. All great.

Got a few tin pieces, and wanted to out them up as a trial and to verify a few things. The only issue was I didn't have the cone head nails, so used some small white nails used for nailing aluminum flashing (they may be made from aluminum and that might be the issue????).

Mind you this is overhead work on a ladder, and I used a smaller 10-12oz hammer instead of my usual 20 oz, thinking both of fatigue and collateral tin damage if I missed a nail.

Anyway, start trying to nail it up. Pierces the tin no problem, gets to the plywood. Nail just bounces. In other words, I hit it, it doesn't go in further to the wood, it's just a repetitive impact. Keep doing so, and then all of a sudden, something will give, and then in one or two blows the nail will go all the way in.

This was not just one spot, I nailed in a number of locations, over a number of plywood pieces, and it all went this way.

So what gives? Call me stupid, but I'm pretty capable of doing much of the mechanical work... But stuff like this happens and just frustrates me.

Is it because I'm using nails made possibly of aluminum? The smaller hammer (not sure if it's an issue since when the nails starts to move, it's handled within a few blows) could have a lot to do with impact momentum, but it drives just fine once the nail starts to go.

It really seems like the plywood is flexing a bit and causing the issue, and I don't typically have issues with nailing items. I could pre drill. But it seems that this is generally not done.

Am I on the right track? Will the steel cone head nails make all the issues go away? Do I just really need a 20 oz hammer to get tiny nails embedded. Should I pre drill everything?

Thanks!

Comments (12)

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    I just did our tin ceiling in our kitchen. I built the ceiling with 1/2" plywood instead of drywall so I'd have a nailing surface. I tried the cone head nails, and they were just too hard to nail in- the plywood is harder than regular lumber, and, as you said, it is bouncy in places. The place I got my tin from recommends using an 18 gauge brad nailer. It makes all the difference in the world! Mine is a pretty good DeWalt, because I'm building our entire house so I'll get plenty of use out of it. You could probably get by with a cheapie, or maybe you could rent one, or buy one and then sell it when you're done. You need a small compressor to run one, though.

    If all of that is out of the question, i think you'd have to pre-drill. The small brads are pretty much invisible though.

  • Elraes Miller
    9 years ago

    Try using an electric nailer. They are less than $50. Have had mine for a good 5 years and use it for everything that doesn;t need high impact. Different woods, different results, but used it on hard Maple and no problem. If it doesn't work for you, just return it. I couldn't live without mine.

  • jakuvall
    9 years ago

    As much creek notes it is harder, but it also sounds as if you are correct about it bouncing.
    How well is the ply attached? The greater the distance between fasteners the more it bounces. If screwed (not nails) to every joist, with screws in a line at say 16" the fastened area being 16 x 16, it will get stiffer.
    Try a small section and see if it helps.

  • JHZR2
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    The plywood is screwed to every joist quite well. Very solid. It's just the bounce between 16"OC joists, or hardness issue as noted above.

    MushCreek, that looks beautiful! Very similar to what were after. So did you use cone head nails in a brad nailer? I have a bostitch finish nailer, but not sure if it's the same thing. I had read that nailers can damage the tin, which is why I've been hesitant, but otherwise it may be an exercise in exhaustion and frustration.

    Just want to be sure I get the right tool. Are the nails visible? Any close-up pictures of the tin nailed up?

    Thanks!

  • Elraes Miller
    9 years ago

    Try using an electric nailer. They are less than $50. Have had mine for a good 5 years and use it for everything that doesn;t need high air impact or large nails. Different woods, different results, used it on hard Maple and no problem. If it doesn't work for you, just return it. I couldn't live without mine.

  • JHZR2
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    What brand do you have? Does it use electric to a actually drive the nail or does it use co2 with an electric actuation?

    If I own a compressor, is there a benefit to the electric?

    Perhaps most importantly, will it drive single conical head nails, or does it need to be strips of stock brads/nails?

    Thanks!

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    I don't think there are any nailers that shoot cone head nails. I just used regular 3/4" long 18 gauge brads. I'll see if I can get a close-up. Standing looking up, you can just barely see them if you know where to look. You have to set the nailer to shoot fairly shallow, and use the lowest pressure that will operate it. otherwise you will shoot right through the tin, and it won't be holding anything. Practice with scrap materials first.

    A brad nailer is just a small finish nailer. I have a bigger 15 ga. nailer that would be too much. I have a manual staple gun that shoots brads, but it wasn't up to the task- too many under-drove or bent. What gauge does your nailer use?

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    Here's a close-up. The nails are 6" apart, in between the little metal dots. The instructions say to nail on the little dots, but when I tried it by hand, the dot collapsed and looked bad, and it was too hard to line the brad nailer up with the dot.

    Our tin is a metallic finish (Antique Satin Nickel), so the nails blend better. If i were doing a color, especially white, I would plan on touching up the nails with matching paint. Other advice: You have to plan carefully, measure carefully, and snap chalklines to work to. Our ceiling turned out to be exactly the right size for the tin panels plus the crown molding. That's both good and bad; I didn't have more than 1/4" to play with. If you notice, the center tile is different, and had to be exactly centered for everything to come out right. You can cheat a bit with the overlap to make corrections, but it's easy to accidentally mess it up, too. It's very hard to remove a panel without damaging it! I bought one extra panel, but didn't use it. I should have bought more crown molding, as it is tricky to get the miters right- lots of trial-and-error there.

    We are beyond thrilled with the finished product, and it never fails to get a big reaction from guests when they see it. The galvanized ceiling fan really works well with the overall look.

  • JHZR2
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I currently have a bostitch finish nailer that I think is 15 ga. I'm happy to buy something if it makes the job easy and best quality.

    I'm also ok trying the cone head nails if they are likely different/better than driving the little aluminum nails. It was just a test run so far...

    If doing it by hand, should a smaller or larger hammer be used? Should I drive with a nail set even from the first blow?

    Would it be smart to predrill every nail? I'd think it would make it more likely to misalign since there are more chances to do things hat allow panels to move. But not sure.

    Though I intend to go from the center, I need to put a few panels in on one corner. Not sure how that will go, but it's a necessity because of some cabinets going up.

    Wonder if putting up with adhesive would be smart. I'm only doing around 240 sq ft.

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    My brad nailer will set them sticking up 1/8" if you want them to. No problem going too deep through the tin. As for holding power, I had a VERY hard time removing my practice pieces of tin despite the tiny brads. The panels are very light.

    I tried to hit the dots, but between holding the tin in place, and the awkward position, it was too frustrating, and for some reason, when you are off center they look more conspicuous.

    I think most finish nailers will work if they are adjustable depth. The key would be practicing before doing the actual ceiling. If the nailer drives too deep, you can glue a small spacer on the nose. I had bought several samples to try different patterns, so they were handy to practice on. My ceiling is 1/2" plywood on furring strips on 12" centers, so it isn't very bouncy, but the plywood is hard. It is southern yellow pine, and was very hard to nail to.

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    Although I measured from the center, I started in the farthest corner so the overlaps would be less visible. I think it would be hard to start in two different locations and have it come out right. The overlaps ARE noticeable when you look at the ceiling from the 'wrong' direction, so you want to start in the furthest corner and work your way out.

    Try your finish nailer and see how it works. The tin manufacturer recommended an 18 gauge nailer set at 25 PSI, which is bogus as I've never seen a nailer that will fire on such a low pressure. Mine needs about 60 PSI minimum, or nothing happens at all. Set it as shallow as it will go, and see what happens. I found the cone head nails to be hard to drive into the plywood; I would have had to drill mine. I don't see how you could use a nail-set from the first blow, unless you have 3 hands.

    I don't see what adhesive would do for you. You need nails to hold the panel flat anyhow. Believe me, those panels aren't coming down. I suppose you could use contact adhesive, but I've never heard of anyone doing so.