Our home has a formal dining room and that was a priority for me when we built six years ago. Our first home was a 1600 square foot white cape with dark green shutters and a picket fence. It had a formal dining room. Every home since has had a formal dining room. Every home we had as I was growing up had a formal dining room, and that's where we took all evening meals. When our kids were still at home, all our dinners were in the dining room. We have never, ever, had a meal at our kitchen island, although three of our homes, including this one, have had islands that accommodate counter stools. For me, it's not a home without a dining room.
Because we live so far away from a major city, when friends and relatives visit, they stay here. Sometimes, those visits last weeks. If the house is full, every meal is in the dining room. If less than full, we have breakfast in the breakfast room and dinner in the dining room.
I once went for two months without using the dining room (I was sewing curtains and needed to keep fabric spread over a large area), and really missed it. There are periods of the year when the dining room is used daily for months.
This dining room is very formal, and we enjoy that. Wood floor, red and blue Persian rug, red Napoleanic Bee silk curtains, china cabinets, crystal chandelier, the whole nine yards, IYWIM.
Some of my best childhood memories are of the meals we took at a mahogany double pedestal dining room table in the dining room that had pale gray wall-to-wall carpet, an historic grissaille mural that went around the entire room, and two sideboards. That was in the 60s, although the home dated to the thirties. Enough rambling.

Interesting topic. Despite living in a relatively small house for the size of my family (2000 sq ft including basement for six of us), I do have a formal dining room. It's actually one of the largest rooms in my house and used the least but it works for us. We have two dining areas in our house - a six ft long farm table in the kitchen where the six of us eat dinner together almost every night, and our formal dining table. Our formal dining room is adjacent to the kitchen, but it's one large open room that is immediately to the left of our front door and is not separated from the front entry by any walls. It was intended to be the living room. When we first lived here, we had the dining table on one side, and cramped furniture on the other. We've since added a small family room off the back of the house and now that front room has a much larger area for the formal dining furniture, and on one side, I have an armoire that houses my desktop computer and files (I'm sitting here now!).

For my family, I think it is important to sit at a regular table for dinner that is set properly and proper manners are used. No TV, no phones, etc during meals. We say grace before we eat, the kids must excuse themselves before leaving the table, bring their plates to the sink, etc. It's unfortunate how many of their friends don't do this when they are here for dinner. We use our formal dining room (rosewood furniture we purchased in Hong Kong on our honeymoon that definitely looks formal) when we have company for dinner and for holiday meals with extended family. If we have company who also have young kids, they eat at the kitchen table and the adults are in the formal dining room. Holidays, we bring an extra table into the formal room and all eat together. Dh occasionally works from home and will sit at the formal dining table and use that as his desk. I also use the space to store ongoing projects that my kids might be working on for school, etc.

I do like having the separate space. I'm not old, nor young - I'm 43. My kids are 12, 10, 8 and 6. I grew up with a similar dining situation - eat-in kitchen at a table, with separate formal dining area that was part of an L-shaped room that also was a formal living room (no formal living room for us). I think the only thing I'd do differently is that I wouldn't have bought such fancy dining furniture that could stand a little more abuse.

That said, I was recently at a friends' home for dinner. They have an old beach bungalow/cape cod style home that has a few additions. They have a large living room that is open to the kitchen, a room to the left that was probably originally a formal dining room that they use as a small TV room, but then off the back of the house (not accessible to the kitchen, but down a hallway) is a large family room. They invited us for dinner, and we ended up, no kidding, sitting in the living room eating with our plates on our lap! The kitchen has a small table that is pushed up against the wall and that is the only table in the whole house (they have four kids but don't eat much together as a family b/c they are always going in separate directions). They entertain a lot, but usually larger groups where everyone stands and eats. It just seemed odd to me that they had three living areas, but no real table to eat! But to each his own...it was a nice meal nonetheless.

Family of 6... 4 kids aged 4-11.

We eat every bkft and dinner together at our (nice) kitchen table. It's bigger than our dining room table. Plus the dining room one is antique and I just don't trust the littles with it for daily use!

Right now our dining room is a pretty room, used for occasional homework separating, storage of dh's dry bar and the occasional dinner with friends spot. Adults eat in there while the kiddos eat at the kitchen table. (when entertaining company)

I'd like to host family thanksgiving etc. at some point, but there's no way we'd all fit... it would max out the dining room, the kitchen table... and extra tables would have to be set up elsewhere.

When we do remodel the kitchen, the kitchen table will be more of a banquette seating - hopefully generous space for 6. Our current kitchen table will be spruced up (a bit scratched etc. from use) and moved into the dining room. The dining room table is an antique drop leaf table. I hope to put it into another room without looking odd (chess table, anyone?).

I'm also slightly considering opening the doorway between the kitchen and the dining room a bit bigger so that when we are having the huge family dinners, the spaces don't seem quite so separate.

It's all a balance... opening that doorway DOES take away potential storage or whatever in the kitchen...

I'm not sure if this answered the question or not. We have a formal dining room. We occasionally use the formal dining room. Our home is rather large and has a formal living room as well (we call it our music room).... unfortunately none of the rooms are large enough to support as many diners as I would like, but oh well... we love the house/neighborhood and we are staying!

We currently have a dining room and use it for formal dining at Christmas and Thanksgiving. The other days of the year my kids do homework there or build Legos.

We are currently building a new house and will have a dining room,b reakfast room, and a large island with seating. At first I argued that we didn't need the dining room but my husband convinced me that the times when we do have large groups of people over for dinner it will be worth it. I like the layout because it is very open and all of the dining spaces seem kind of connected. Ideally, it would have been nice to make the dining room more of a flex space that could be closed off (my dream would be with barn doors) but it just didn't work in our plan.

The most functional spot in our entire house is our table. It's separated from our kitchen by a 2 sided hutch. It can comfortably accommodate 8-10 people.

I hope to someday convert a rarely used room into a separate dining room. I don't consider a second table wasted space since I can't imagine anything more functional than the work surface, recreational space, dining space, and seating that a dining table provides.

The dining room will be a place to put our rarely used piano and it will be a project/puzzle space when not needed as a dining table. I look forward to being able to set the table for company in a space I can close off before I go into a frenzy with cooking and cleaning.

When I was growing up separate pantries seemed to be dated. Now they seem to be all the rage (or is it just GW?) It often seems that if grandma was special and grandma's house had some beloved feature (i.e. dining room) then grandchild will at some point in his or her life covet that feature.

jejvtr, I wish I could take your dining room and plunk it down in my house right now! I love everything about it (not surprising, given our similar tastes in kitchens!)

kateskouros and nini804, you also have wonderfully inviting beautiful dining rooms.

It is funny, but what I get from a few of these posts is that if a family eats at a kitchen table daily, that is not as good as in the dining room. I love that our family can be relaxed in each others' company and sitting at the kitchen table is where many of our happy/funny memories will be.
Our dining room is used for larger gatherings and we will have memories of sharing meals with others there, both formally and informally, depending on the grouping. Our table in the dining room is rather big, so prior to the reno, it felt awkward because 2 people were side by side while one would take the end and the other had a side to himself. It was a little more crowded at the far side so it did not make sense daily to sit two by two. We got in the habit of eating our meals in the living room around the coffee table because it was more comfortable. That did not make our meals or family time any less important. Formality (or not) is not what makes the memories. The real key is being together and sharing a meal, your day and hopefully, a laugh.
Lately, my younger ds and dh have been busy with the 2 teams they are both on (ds as player and dh as coach). Sometimes, I eat with my older ds and the other 2 eat their meal together. It has been a good bonding to spend one on one time for my older ds and me. He is itching to be independent and so is tougher to get to open up to his mom lately. This has been a good change for us. The little guy and I get our time when I tuck him in or when he snuggles on the couch with me. Being busy does not make a family bad or good. All summer we are around each other almost too much, lol... Different times of the year have a different rhythm.
It does not matter where you eat but how you appreciate what you eat and with whom you eat. I ate dinner every night with unhappy parents and it was not the Norman Rockwell scene no matter what we ate or how formal it was. Dining room or kitchen, all together or separately, is all incidental.

Ooo -- there is so much good and interesting stuff to read here but I can't get to it right now. A quick perusal suggests this is highly family- as well as personality-dependent. Sorry if this is a repeat.

Like someone above, I'm still in mid-process and I suppose feelings about this could change. But I think it might be interesting to read how feelings have been and continue to evolve. I grew up in a house with no formal DR, just pretty contiguous with the kitchen (Architectural Digest from the early 60's if anyone's interested). I liked that OK, there was some separation from the kitchen -- enough, it wasn't obviously visible in there from the DR, though maybe it was - I guess I didn't care much. And this became my image of what a DR should be.

Then far-bluer-blooded dh showed up and couldn't conceive of not having a formal DR. Our house had one and our first night in the new house I naturally sat down to eat at the kitchen table. We had a real tiff about that. I decided I didn't really even care enough to carry on the argument and opted to try the formal-DR-thing. It seemed awfully dumb to me.

But eventually I grew very used to it, eventually learned to love it. It's like a very small sea of calm in a chaotic life. Note - and this is important - we are all slobs. Every surface tends to become cluttered nearly permanently against all my efforts to stop it otherwise. Having this rarefied, clean room available is really very calming, a separation. And obviously this is highly personality-dependent.

Fast forward to our current situation without our old kitchen for two years, camping out the last one, using various surfaces for eating and the kitchen table is definitely the only eating surface nowadays. I am so looking forward to re-setting up the formal dining room. My kids' meal-behaviors have become atrocious. Their schedules are so nutso nowadays we will actually not be able to sit down to a meal together on a couple nights per week. This makes me want to in a dedicated, eat/sharing space all the more. Again - see? This is hugely time-, place-, personality-, family-life-dependent.

What's interesting to me is that the place of this room is very much an integral, evolved part of one's family/home life. When kids and Family aren't present, the solution would be 100% different I can imagine. Likewise dependent on how you live and what you want to foster. etc. Entertaining of course figures in as well.

So even if the DR is separate and formal, I would have to include the eating space for what you cook in your kitchen, in the whole kitchen-gestalt. Even if it's a separate room, it's part of the same consideration. If it's in the same room of course it's the same space. But separated it is too, just a different expression of your kitchen. 'Kitchen' needs to include how you intend to consume what's been cooked. And how you consume is an art in itself. "Meaningful art", I should say...

I can't wait to read everyone's responses carefully. Thanks for this thread. How on earth do people keep up with this forum? I have to go live now....

Agree, Dianolo. Locations for dining get no special virtue or moral points attached to them just because of their location. Whatever value accrues to a family from dining comes from its interaction as family.

This thread simply launched the topic of why dining rooms are so little used, or desired, by many when their DRM tables are often just as close to the stove as their eating counters and typically closer and more convenient than their eating couches. This is a function question.

Stream of thought pops up with another, a couple actually: 1. Standard of care is often higher for DRM, so that it seems more work to clean up and may actually be. 2. The counter is already waiting with streaks and crumbs on the floor from lunch, making cleanup a 2fer if used again. Another biggie, I bet. Who needs more work? :)

I, tried to use our dining room, for holiday's dinner's but everyone is soon out in the kitchen. My husband, when we remodel and took down a wall, went and set in the dining room to make sure he, could see the diamond back, or cardinal game's from the dining room. So so much for the formal. Now he, want's to put a pool table, in it.

Delurking to get in on this great discussion (especially the posts including and after Lavender Lass').

I'm in my early-mid 30s and have owned a 1920s home for nearly 10 years. Neither my husband nor I grew up with a dining room, but we insisted on having one in our home. We also have a breakfast nook and a florida room that could be used for a breakfast room (beautiful light).

At first, the room just had a card table with a tablecloth on it and some chairs. We kept dishes and glasses and serving pieces we'd gotten from the wedding on bookcases. When we'd have more than a couple of people over, we pushed in another card table and got a bigger tablecloth. Now the room has an antique mahogany buffet, china cabinet and side chairs. We painted the mahogany table (refinishing was cost prohibitive and can be done later) and bought upholstered head chairs. There's also a chandelier. The table does not stay set. It's a laid-back formal space.

We have people in there all the time, even when it's not a "dinner party." We've had pizza, cereal, take-out Chinese and even Taco Bell in there. It's where we get together and eat. It's next to the living room, so it's also a place for either the girls or the guys or a subgroup within them to either get away from the more intimate chat or go have one. We have a library with an office, too, but I prefer the dining room table for garden planning and other tasks.

You can entertain in a kitchen that's not open to the other public spaces or that has just a nook. A door connects our kitchen to the dining room; people flow in and out. Some stand in the doorway or lean against a counter; others have a seat at the kitchen table (remember those?). You also don't need a ton of space for entertaining or to have a dining room. Our home is a little less than 1700 sf, and the dining room is a good-sized room.

Some of my best memories are of sitting at the table having Froot Loop fights with my brother, snapping beans with my dad, crying in my tea over some boy while my grandma held my hand, and much later, playing footsie with my then-fiance trying not to get caught by his parents. You can't really do those things at an island/peninsula. DH and I are not the kind to sit at an informal restaurant counter, either. Even if alone, we always, always seek out a table or a booth. Maybe there's a connection?

Like someone up-thread said, dedicated eating areas promote intimacy. And it's a lot more enjoyable to eat in a place (dining room) where you don't have to be reminded that there are dishes to do and clean-up from the meal.

Rosysunnygirl, your dining room sounds very comfortable. Aside from that, and the fact that using it daily isn't just a strange new experiment in your house, can you figure out any other reasons you find it inviting and use it so much?

Shar-az, :)! It may make a great pool room. If I remember it right, Lynette Jennings (remember her great show?) had a pool table in their DRM once, right off the foyer probably.

Aliris, we were posting at the same time. Yours is such a great description of the dynamics of dining in your family. We've changed over the years. Empty-nesters now, our dinner table for two is a little drop-leaf with a lamp and (real cloth!) tablecloth on it in the living room--with a view of the TV. Our DRM is a hall in the middle of the house, with a large mahogany drop-leaf against the wall piled with books most of the time. It'll seat 12-14 when family shows up and the hall-cum-library transforms into a really nice dining room (although never "formal").

Thank you, dianalo, for saying what I was thinking. We do eat in our DR some of the time, always for holiday meals and dinner parties, but also when we can at other times. But sometimes we do eat in the family room or on the patio and I don't see those as any less of a bonding experience. And occasionally we do eat in shifts because I guess we are busysobusysoveryverybusy. If DS1's wrestling meet doesn't end until 8 and it's an hour drive home, and DS2's bedtime is 8:30, it doesn't make sense to hold dinner until we can all sit down around the table. If that means that DH and DS2 eat at the coffee table while playing Lego Star Wars and DS1 and myself eat hours later at the table, it is what it is. I'll find out in a decade if the fact that we don't all eat around the table every single night has lead to degenerates with drug problems, or if the quality of the time we do spend with our kids has led to them being productive members of society.

To the original OP's question: No, I don't think that formal DRs are dead.

Oh my, rosie: a real-cloth table. sigh. In my dreams.

When the DR is up and running, it's placemats we use as they are easier-wiped. For years there was a high chair on wheels in there too. The kitchen table has a real sop to non-high-browedness with a rotating plastic tablecloth with a pattern that matches the season. It's the only way I even know what time of year it is here in SoCal. I buy them for $3 at discount places and use them for block parties. Or glass-protection, or floor-protection -- on and on. Way cheaper than those big heavy blue tarps. They don't last as long, but who else has witches flying across the top of the lumber, protecting it? ;)

We moved ours. My husband has lived in our house since he was 8, so he wanted a change. We moved our dining room table out of the dining room and moved it into our family room. The family room has the wet bar and fireplace and a TON more room. In the "dining room", you would have to stand to scoot your chair in so people could walk by, etc. So we changed the dining room into a cozy lounge area with a couch, coffee table and big chair.
I agree it is a personal choice. I see us being in this house for a LONG time, so we are going to do what WE want. If you do want to resell, though, I'd save the dining room SPACE and just repurpose it if it isn't being used.

Perhaps this is a tangent, but there are two things that always perturb me when I read how people eat.

The first, as I already said, is the decline of family dinners. This is how we end up with young people who aren't fit to go out in public, and p.s. are also drunks.

The second is the number of people who say they "never entertain." I see that constantly all over GW, if not so much on this thread. I'm not talking about how people entertain, whether with Haviland fingerbowls or pizza boxes; I'm talking about people who never entertain at all.

What? Really? No one ever comes over your house? Not in-laws or cousins or grandparents, or neighbors or pastors or rabbis? No school teachers or book clubs or kaffeeklatches or covens or cell meetings for the rhododendron rescue league? None of that?

OK if you live in Manhattan, where you'd have to serve dinner while people sit on your toilet and there's a world-class restaurant right downstairs anyway; or if you live way out in the middle of nowhere, maybe.

But is this really how Americans live? No face to face contact--no contact ever, really, unless a corporation is involved too, like Facebook or Twitter or AT&T or your boss watching you at the water cooler?

Explains a lot, really.

Marcolo- You are on a tangent...and lack of family dinners does not cause alcoholism...where do you get this stuff???

Also, a lot of people 'entertain' by hosting football parties, BBQs, movie night (my mom has a small TV and comes over specifically to watch Burn Notice on Thursdays) and some of they're 'entertaining' has nothing to do with sitting at a table, sharing a meal.

Of course, there are times when people do sit together and eat...but again, it doesn't always have to be in a formal dining room. I have nothing against them...and have often enjoyed dinners in formal dining rooms...but I don't see them as the backbone of civilization. People successfully raised families for generations...without the luxury of formal dining rooms :)

I get this stuff????? from reading the news, and the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Colombia University:
CASA Columbia's 2011 family dinners finds that compared to teens who have frequent family dinners (five to seven per week), those who have infrequent family dinners (fewer than three per week) are almost four times likelier to use tobacco; more than twice as likely to use alcohol; two-and-a-half times likelier to use marijuana; and almost four times likelier to say they expect to try drugs in the future.

But, as I said earlier, American parents care more about what they feel than about being good parents. They're good at justifying stuff, though.

The idea that civilization wasn't built on family dinners is equally counterfactual, of course. And nobody said anything about "formal."

I am sorry if my defense of dining rooms implied that those with out were not enjoying family time. Yes ofcoarse you can experience quality time together at the kitchen table but for me dinner in my dr away from other distractions, ie mess, tv, etc., lasts longer for it is somehow easier to linger in that room. This is only my experience and my eat in kitchen area is not as comfy as our dr but it is the act of eating together that matters not the room. Sorry if my comments were taken to be judgemental.

Marcolo- This is why I'm confused...most kids ate family dinners in the 1960s and 1970s...and we still had lots of kids trying/using tabacco, alcohol and marijuana.

I do agree that some parents...at least seem to want to be friends, more than parents. However, since I don't have any kids, I can't really comment too much on that one :)

I'm still not clear on the Manhattan 'sitting on the toilet to eat dinner' comment. I do 'live in the middle of nowhere' but we still manage to convince people to occasionally stop by...and sometimes we even feed them! LOL

Well, there are lots of reasons why kids become druggies, but it seems that family dinners are an important factor--among others.

"Sitting on the toilet"--have you ever visited a Manhattan apartment? It's one of the only places to sit!

Anyway, I stand by the "never entertain" comment. I've seen it a lot in layout threads, as well as the homebuilding and renovation forums. I just don't understand how people live that way.

The study doesn't surprise.

I've been suggesting that a quiet room where family can come together for dining (style of decor irrelevant) facilitates togetherness in a way that multitasking on the couch or at a counter, or both at once, never can.
On behalf of those who see structured family dining as yet another chore on a long list, though, I'd just like to point out that a lot of people are TIRED. Most households require both parents working full time to maintain. The American workday is longer than it has been since worker protection laws were enacted--and typically more intensive. Homes and kids come with long, long lists of support chores to be done outside the home before the parents get to stagger in and continue their workdays there.

This is very much on point with use or lack of of quiet rooms devoted to family dining. If structured family dining has not already become a normal, pleasant, and relaxing part of the day, it's going to be another task for the weary, a challenge. Just think of the complaints at giving up the TV and not answering the phone, even for fairly well disciplined families. One uncommitted adult could kill the whole project.

I wonder whether studies like that have a correlation/causation problem. Maybe the parents more likely to have family dinners are also parents who place a high premium on family life, who are there for their kids to talk to, who make their kids feel valued, who take time to spend with their kids and discuss drugs and alcohol and other issues, who are in in-tact families instead of separated/divorced, and/or who pay more attention to what their kids are doing and who their kids are with. Perhaps it is all of those other factors that have a bigger contributing influence than the actual act of sitting down to dinner every night.

Well, that study is one in a long line saying the same thing.

rosie, I agree with you. America has a fiercely anti-family economy, and it's really hard when both parents work long and especially unpredictable hours. But as I said, some of it is parental choice--not only to permit the kids to go to soccer practice that interferes with family time (because sure, they're all going to get soccer scholarships), but also, to do all the chores themselves because heavens to betsy, the little darlings can't be expected to lift a finger around the house. Much less use a fork.

Not only does my family of three (actually two now that DD is away at school) eat every meal together at the dining room table, we then follow dinner by playing games or cards on the dining room table at least twice a week.

We keep our blinds open and have a frequently used sidewalk just a few steps away from our dining room window. We literally sit at the table and wave at the strangers passing by our house on their way to the bus stop. It makes me feel good that family meals and gaming has remained a top priority in my home. Recently our DD, 18, commented that not many of her friends' families play games and she's glad we do. When she brings friends home from school, she always insists we "show them how we play together."

On the other hand I haven't used my "formal" china in over two decades, but can't seem to part with it. We also traded out the formal Queen Anne style dining table and chairs for an antique quartersawn oak round table which is much better suited to my small family. We do have leaves we can use when we need to seat more than five.

Beagles has a point. A very important one. The reason some of those kids are so messed up is because of parental neglect. Sometimes, when it is a single parent struggling to pay the bills and keep food in their mouth and sometimes from dysfunctional parents. The study also says the problems are with "those who have infrequent family dinners (fewer than three per week)". Nowhere does it say the family can't be tailgating at a game, eating at Panera, or even sitting in Taco bell. It seems to point to lack of time spent together and lack of opportunity to communicate and share. I find that some of the best times talking to my kids and their friends are when we are in the car together. The lack of eye contact actually helps sometimes. It also provides some one on one privacy that can be needed for sensitive topics. Part of it is they are my captives in the car, muaahhhhh....
You are also failing to show the studies that show that kids who are engaged in activities and sports are less likely to take drugs and more likely to do well in school. The obesity epidemic is also in the news, so perhaps 2 hours eating dinner every night is not the best solution...
It is easy to misinterpret the study you cited to condemn busy families. It also does not account for the families that are busy during a particular season or 2. I have my dh and 2 kids home all summer (he's a teacher) so if the kids are busy now, it is not like we are exactly strangers with each other!

Dianalo, as the mother of four, I agree that some of my best conversations with my kids take place in my car. Especially with my 12 y/o and her friends - I learn lots of things just by "eavesdropping" on her conversations with her friends in my car.

Funny about sports. I have four kids that all plays sports. We pretty much have at least one, sometimes three practices on any given weeknight. My husband coaches two teams each season. Right now my kids are young (ages 12, 10, 8 and 6) so I can still somewhat control their schedules in coordination with dh (benefit of being married to the coach!). Yet we eat together nearly every night. It's important to us. Sometimes I'll feed my kids an early dinner before practice, then when they all get home, I'll eat dinner with dh while they sit AT THE TABLE with us eating a pre-bedtime snack. I have to say that I'm fortunate though to be a mostly SAHM so I have the time to plan and make dinners based on our evening schedule such that we can all eat together. Things would probably be a bit more chaotic if I worked FT outside the home. I'd have to be much more organized about cooking/planning/shopping on weekends than I am now.

I do agree though that it matters not where or what you are eating but that you make the time to be together as a family.

That said, dh and his four siblings all turned out all right despite the fact that his father was rarely home for dinner. He was a international PanAm pilot. His mom worked FT as a schoolteacher but still managed to feed them and schlep them to/from sports/activities and parent them such that they all turned out to be productive citizens.

And marcolo, despite my kids all playing soccer, basketball, lacrosse, swimming, field hockey, Girl Scouts, etc (and no, I'm not counting on scholarships for any of them), my kids all have assigned chores within their capabilities, even my 6 y/o. No one gets a free pass here!

I reread beagle's post and the one thing I want to add is that it seems to say divorced parents and kids can't be functional, which is not fair and was probably not intended. What may be a factor is in some cases you can have a hero of a single parent, but they often have to try to compensate for one who isn't so great or so involved, so the stats may look like a parenting problem, when it might be lack of one of them that is the issue.
In many cases, kids of divorced parents turn out just fine.

You are right dianalo I wasn't trying to imply that divorced parents and kids cannot be functional in any way. Divorce only becomes a problem if it ends up with kids being neglected, but kids can be neglected with married families as well.

When my dad added on to our house he created a dining room (area?) separated from the kitchen by a peninsula with counter seating. And that was back in the sixties! Ahead of his time? I didn't think twice about it at the time but looking back I don't think I'd ever want that set up for myself.

In our house my DH and I ate in our eat-in kitchen for years. There was a room that could be a dining room (wasn't used for that purpose by previous owners either) but we used it as a living room/office. So we had an eat-in kitchen, a "family" room and a living room. A few years back I got sick of having to eat in the kitchen when we had people over so I got rid of the living room furniture and moved our, rather substantial, dining table and chairs into the living room. A change I do not regret at all! We eat in the new dining room every day. The dining room is still part office which is something I'd like to change but in a 1400 sf house is not so easily achieved. The kitchen now has a small table used for breakfast. DH often sets up his laptop and works there during the day. Both spaces are used every day.

So, no, the dining room is not dead. But you might think it is if you'd gone on the "Parade of Homes" tour I went on this evening. That's another thread.

bingo beagles. Association dne causation (dne => Does Not Equal). I think the patterns of modern family life are surely interesting compared with one and two or more generations ago. But linking them causally with societal ills is maybe jumping the gun a tad....

Roses- You can't say something like that and not elaborate. What Parade of Homes, what happened to the dining rooms...and when are you starting this new post? LOL

Obviously folks are even more creative with their rationalizations than they are with designing their kitchens!

Always reminds me of my favorite line from the movie, "The Big Chill:" "Rationalizations are more important than sex."

"What are you talking about?"

"Ever go a day without a rationalization?"

Interesting tack this thread has taken!

Agreed about the causation thing. Not to mention that a lot of studies of this sort don't have good methodology or a clear grasp of what they're measuring. The things about family dinner that make for less disaffected and troubled teenagers are more likely family support, parental attention, close relationships, someone noticing when they're out of sorts or bothered by something, etc., etc. Family dinner--whether it's in the dining room or seated on the kitchen counters (ick, but people do)--is a good tool for parents who are trying to keep that family structure and involvement going. It's not the eating part! It could be family laundry, or prayers, or basketball. And there still are plenty of families where family dinners are stilted, tense affairs, where the kids aren't allowed to talk unless they're addressed, etc., and are expected to have only achievements introduced into conversation, never setbacks. I doubt family dinner is a big help to their emotional wellbeing.

I believe sitting down to share a meal togethis *is* fundamentally different from driving with your children, or playing basketball, etc. I don't dismiss that there are benefits of sharing other daily actiities and routines, but there is something better/more powerful about sharing a daily meal together -- A meal puts you (1) face to face, (2) occurs daily (3) brings the whole unit together (4) involves sacrifice to be there which sends hugely important messages like "You are more important to me than ________ (attending a meeting, earning an extra hour of overtime, insert anything else here)." I think it also elevates the importance of the family by sending the message that "Our daily time together is more important than ______ (soccer, youth group, time with friends..." It's not the meal, but the valuing of the time together as a whole unit that works, but at the same time there is no better way to do this -- what else occurs daily and brings the whole unit together rather than part of the unit?

@ pillog: when an angry, abusive or narcissistic parent is at the helm, it's not going to be a happy occasion, but for that child day to day living with the parent is probably not that great, either, so again it isn't the family dinner that's the problem nor is avoiding the dinner isn't going to solve the problem.

... a tangent here... we had two children living with us for about a year who had come from a grab your own dinner and eat whenever household, so eating dinner together was foreign to them. To make it comfortable for them we started going around and sharing "highs and lows" and each person had to share one high from their day and one low. We started it just to make them comfortable, but ended up doing it every day they were with us. It was a great way to check in with them -- it said a lot when on days one kid could only come up with a low (or asked to share 2 or 3) and other days they asked "can I share another high?" Doing this also kept the naturally more verbose child/ren from dominating the conversation and also the kids learned to ask about the parents/guardians days, too. Very simple technique but worked really well.

@kris_ma I'm sorry, but what you said to plllog made me laugh. You have no idea what horror the mere words "family dinner" conjure up in my head - even forty-plus years later.

bmore -- I hear ya. For me just being in a dining room practically triggers a trauma response.

I have to ask. Marcolo, do you have any children? Your dismissive attitude reminds me of the young women who see the toddlers on baby leashes, and recoil in horror, but then have babies and wonder "where do they buy those baby leashes?"

My children participate in sports because they enjoy them, not because I have any delusions that they will be professional athletes or desire for them to earn sports scholarships(D1 athletes are pretty much owned by their respective universities, it's much better to be on academic scholarship.) In addition to baseball, soccer, football, lacrosse, wrestling, golf, karate, and tennis, there are choral and treblemakers(glee club) concerts, Odyssey of the Mind work sessions and competitions, as well as volunteer commitments. Before each season, we discuss whether the time commitment for each activity is worth it to the child. My boys understand that making a commitment will sometimes adversely impact free time and occasionally family time.

We do manage to eat together as a family at least 3 times a week(seems like a paltry number) most of the time, so I guess my kids are safe from a future of rampant alcoholism and drug use. Or maybe it's the frequent conversations, or the continual support of their goals. Back in 6th grade, DS1 told me that a classmate AC was smoking pot, and this year when I asked about a boy who we hadn't seen around the cottage this summer(his grandparents have a cottage near ours,) DS1 replied, "I'm not really friends with him anymore, because he's kind of a druggie now." Maybe we've had some of these discussions around the dinner table, but we've had them on the boat while fishing, and in the car, too.

And no, I haven't forgotten the fine art of table setting. I set a beautiful table, not just for dinner but also for tea. Feel free to check out my blog and click on the Tablescapes label on the sidebar. We do entertain in the DR, but we also entertain in the LR, the FR, and the patio.

To wrap this all up, I'd rather be a delusional, rationalizing mom of a future alcoholic than a judgmental, dismissive, holier than thou sycophant.

I think the ideal is a roomy eat-in kitchen with a space for kids o do homework and projects while the parents cook or sit and work with them. It's great for family meals.

However, when I have friends for dinner, I don't want to sit in the same room with the cooking mess. I love to set the table so it looks nice, although not necessarily formal.

I use my kitchen table as a staging area to organize serving dishes, etc for a nice sit-down meal with friends. However, they often come into the kitchen and sit on the kitchen chairs while I cook, which is nice. I like company in the kitchen, but NOT help!

I don't think a dining room has to formal with a crystal chandelier, but having an attractive place to eat a nice meal is a real plus to me.

That said, the newly built McMansion across from me sold for $1 million and has neither a dining room nor living room. It's the dumbest floor plan I've ever seen. It took two years to sell it. For a million bucks, I want a nice place to entertain where the guests aren't looking at the kitchen sink and refrigerator.

Wow, this has gone from, "a show of hands for who uses a formal dining room", to "if the whole family doesn't eat every night in a formal dining room, your children will end up living under a bridge".

To answer the first question, we took down the wall between our 12x12 kitchen and same size dining room 20 years ago and moved the dining table to one end of the 12x24 never used formal living room. We don't entertain often. (In my case defined as larger groups of friends or extended family. I don't consider our frequent meals with the few local close relatives or childrens friends/dates as "entertaining".) While the larger more formal area isn't used often for meals, it is used more regularly than the old providing a quiet space to work or read and has become our traditional holiday gathering spot. For the times that I do "entertain" the larger space makes it possible to add leaves to the table to comfortably seat 10 - something that wasn't possible in the smaller old one function room. So I guess my input is that for our particular family/lifestyle and house size, I do find a flexible area useful.

As to the second direction of the thread. I did link through and pull down the full study pdf. First of all, there is no mention of a formal dining room setting in the study :-). Looking through the graphs in the full report you see a significant correlation between family meals, time spent with children, relationship with parents and experimentation with various substances. It seems that the strongest correlation is time spent and family meals would be a good way to do that. Keep in mind that these are statistics with various assumptions, many of which aren't spelled out even in the full report. Based on the graphs, the majority are fine regardless of eating situation, but having a good relationship and spending time with your children is important. Meals together when you can (even in your pretty new more functional kitchen!) would be good productive way to get that time - but not the only way. In my "whatever it's worth" opinion (as someone with children who so far are not living under a bridge) it's the substance of the time behind the ritual that's important - not the ritual itself. Although manners and knowing which fork to use will never hurt them!

Marcolo - I appreciate most of what you say and how you say it, but the constantly snide remarks about parents are unwarranted. Sure, there are some bad parents out there these days, but there are many wonderful ones.

I don't know where you grew up, but "the old days" are a misnomer at best. Just because things have changed does not mean it is for the worst. I would guess that the ratio of good parent to bad has been fairly consistent over time. I had a very rough childhood and thought I was the only one back then. I have come to learn that many of the so called happy families were putting on a show for everyone's benefit and there were many rotten apples that looked shiny from afar. My family ate dinner together virtually every night as a child. It was often traumatic and a place of abuse. I dare you to tell me that we were better off for having eaten together.

My family now eats dinner 4-5 nights a week all together although sometimes it ends up at 8 o clock because of the running around. More often than not it is a home cooked meal, but even when it is pizza or take out, we enjoy each others' company. Occasionally, I'll eat with the boys if my dh has to work late or leave early for a game. We have fun those times too. When the boys eat at the grandparents, dh & I are quite happy to eat without them. The key to it all is we spend time together, we talk together (plenty!) and the kids know they are loved and appreciated. They know if something is bothering them, they can come to us, and they do. We are not a perfect family by far, and suspect it is fairly common like that in most houses. Whether there is one parent or 2, or you add in a few step-parents, it is not about eating together, but about caring. Force people who do not like each other to eat together and you get indigestion at best.

Until you have walked the walk, having your judgements about others and how they parent is not justified. Until you have done some of the heavy lifting yourself, you just can't imagine how all encompassing it can be. And don't even try to tell me it is anything remotely like being a doting uncle or pet lover. Parenting is hard work and yet it is rewarding. We all just hope the hard work part is effective and that our kids know we did our best, even if we have a bad moment or 2. My kids think I am mean because they have to do their homework and clean their rooms, but I'd bet everything I have that they know they are loved and that their mom is looking out for them overall. What they don't appreciate now, they will when they are parents themselves.

I have never read so many generalizations, supported by freely interpreted studies ---- which amounts to rationalization, btw. Nor did i know that GW has a resident psychologist/ psychiatrist.....well, live and learn.

To answer the question.: #2
we have a formal DR which i love, full of lovely furniture and silver and stuff that has come down to us from both families. We host several parties a year for which this room is indispensible, and we eat in it regularly. However, if we really needed the space for another purpose i would probably try a dual nature room (DR/study). Its other important function is as my "time out" room :)

Well this thread has almost reached its end. I think that dianalo and lax have so many good points. Lots of others also but I can't go back again and make note of all of them. For the most part the parents are trying so hard and are doing the best they know how. I don't know how anyone can ask or want more.

I made a point of saying we ate dinner together every night. We did. And that it didn't matter where you ate together ...in a tent or where ever.

We talked and laughed and cried and sometimes I yelled and stormed at the kids too. It was not all perfect and rose colored. My DH and I did the best we knew how given the patterns we grew up with .I think we did a great job.

Our kids are well into adult-hood now. They have a range of behaviors that are full spectrum from in/out of jail and mental illness to productive well-adjusted employed to alcoholic to sweetest and kindest to most self-centered impossible out of control anger...this is the same person...all in this one family...it is also parts of the other 2 children. We all ate at the same table and loved and learned together.

All of the children have told us in recent weeks how much we mean to them and how much they love us...while one or another was exhibiting the above behaviors in the past months .

As parents there is simply no job that is harder or more heartbreaking or more rewarding. Most of us try to do our best. We ate together and I am the first to admit that sometimes we would have been better off being in separate rooms. So be it. We did the best we could and the kids know this. I know this...I still feel guilty every day for the times that I made big mistakes. I am trying to let that guilt go. But when the phone rings in the middle of the night...it all comes back.

This started as a conversation about the DR. Yes we have had one since 1979. Has it made a difference in my life or DH's or our children's ? No. Has the time we have spent with them reading stories in their room ? Yes...more than any other time ever ever spent they still all talk about the books that we read them. Time spent and the love generated in that time... still none of it is a guarantee . c

Dianalo, my post came directly after yours but I was not referring to your comments.

Trail runner, thank you for that heartfelt description of REAL parenting. Most people do the best job they can in the circumstances, and a few missed meals or no dining room isn't going to make a difference in outcome.

Very heartfelt Laxsuper and Trailrunner and Dianalo... and everyone else who has a balanced view on this topic. I have to say that even though my kids and I ate dinner every night in our Dining Room, the reality is that as teenagers they didn't seem to be that cooperative. There would be sulks and squawks about 'salmon', anything from a crockpot. Conversations would often be combative.... but really I have to laugh... it is the Teenage Years.. years from hell and they do go away. My daughter would invariably be locked behind her bedroom door (locked by her) and it would get to the point that no one could remember what it was all about???? Nothing that I did or tried to do around that Dining Room table changed a thing!! However like you Trailrunner, I used to read aloud to my kids most nights and in Winter it would be round an open fire. For me, those times beat any occasion around that Dining Room table.. maybe I just wasn't that good at running that part of the day. Luckily everyone is doing well away from home, living their lives and calling home often. I guess it all works out one way or another and hopefully we can all remember the good times and know that there are no 'guaranteed results' in almost anything we do.

From someone completely uninterested in issues of childrearing, a question for those without dining rooms:

where do you play Scrabble?
set up that enormous 5,000-piece puzzle?
look over blueprints with the architect?
trace sewing patterns on fabric?
lay out your tax documentation in April?

I suspect that, formal or no, it's all about the TABLE. Folks who have eschewed a dining room are able to do so because they have large houses with other places for big work tables. Not so in a small house, where the dining table is put into quadruple duty. What do you think?

circus: the kitchen island... :) If we didn't have the island, like in our previous home, it would be the table.

Chairs are a relatively modern invention, in the history of the world. A place to go eat at (with chairs there) helped to differentiate oneself from those who ate while perching a bowl on their knee, sitting on a low stool or crouched on the floor. Now it's been centuries since Dining Rooms started when people needed a place to serve from, and to sit, because many "Western-civilization" meals required eating from plates/bowls set on a table. The two developed together, hand in hand. Meals that required tables and chairs. But late-20th century food was designed to behave well in ANY room, and not require a dining room.

There used to be a lot of restrictions around food consumption. Long ago it was uncouth to eat in the Living Room. It may have been because of "crumbs", or contaminating the house with food that would ultimately leave traces that would feed critters and creepy crawlies. When cleaning house one knew to look for crumbs in the Dining Room. But chesterfields, settees, sofas and couches were not designed to be crumb recipients. Crumbs = oils, butters, shortening etc. Yuk. Rancid smells. Yuk.

Then, there are all the other connotations. Savages didn't have dining rooms.

In some countries, to go camping is to admit to a disgusting baseness. A real signal.
In other countries, to go camping is a normal thing people do to get out of routines, and not "waste" money at fancy resorts where they overcharge you for everything. Not a big message, not a big differentiator.

A dining room is a place to go if the meal "type" requires it.
Many foods these days are designed to be consumed without going through a DR.
That is because of modern marketing doing that: it empowers you when you can eat a large variety of foods, whatever you want at any time, and not cause a big mess all over. Feel powerful. Have it. The food behaves well in the living room. It obeys.

A "formal" dining room is, umm, whatever that is.

I just opened this thread and saw it has a lot of posts.

Some of the symbolic aspects of the DR have died, or disappeared.

We're putting a dining room into our new build. We don't have one right now and host all of the holidays. I hate sitting at the table and looking at the dirty pots and pans. As a kid my Mom had us set the dining room table the day before. It was all part of that holiday excitement you feel as your building up to the big day. I can't do this now because we use the table the night before and all morning and am looking forward to starting this tradition with my kids in our new place.
When we weren't using the room for entertaining it was the place where
we could do school projects, puzzles, crafts, and not have to move the mess every day. My Mom also used it as a sewing space From time to time.
I'm glad I read through this thread because now I'm going to focus on how to make it more multi-functional.
Lastly, some of the most screwed up kids I grew up with definitely sat at the dinner table with their families most, if not every night. However, I believe Marcolo may have attended an event with my brother-in-law's family and had to listen to their ranting about how each of their four kids just *have* to play in three different soccer leagues at once and you just can't imagine how busysobusybusybusyyouwillneverbeasbusyasme. It actually is pretty common around here and incredibly condescending and annoying to listen to, so my husband and I laughed pretty hard at that one and we do have two young kids :)

Very late to hop on here, sorry. I do have a dining room. I would not call it formal, more of a casual, inviting, unplugged zone. We do eat there 3-4 z per week. Holidays, birthdays etc are all celebrated there as well, festive comes to mind. The dining room is also a great place for date night. It's a place to talk and share without the outside intrusions. The kitchen island serves that purpose as well. But eating in the dining room feels special. My kids grew up knowing how to eat a "meal" (including "the which fork to use debate), not merely forage. Many of their peers, especially the fast food posse, do not have that knowledge. It's is a knowledge that have benefits in social and business situations. I think, in the end, it's a room and it's how you take care with the family and friends in that room that counts the most.

It was actually sort of "illegal" to have chairs in France before the revolution unless you were part of the nobility class. Joinery of the nature that allowed Egyptians and Romans to have lightweight portable chairs was lost in the Dark Ages and when it was figured out again, those who had access to it were limited.

In this country the actual rooms for dedicated purposes came about in the Federal Period but it was still not uncommon for the best bed to be in the best room of the house. So sleeping and dining could possibly be adjacent. Furniture was still pushed against the wall and pulled out when needed in this period.

Whether you have room for a completely dedicated, separate dining room or not, I still think it is nice to sometimes eat at a table separated from the area of food preparation.
But I think the "where" is less important than perhaps, the "how" and the "how often"