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Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Posted by teamj (My Page) on
Sun, Sep 15, 13 at 21:25

This is part 2 of a previous thread:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg092329583243.html

To recap, Cabinets will be off-white, glazed, shaker door, transitional styling. Countertops will be gray or off white. Ceilings are 12�. Looks are the primary goal for this kitchen, but we do also cook.

I am hoping to finalize my layout and did receive tons of advice on the other thread, however I have firmed up many parameters so I thought a new clean thread would be best.

Many people suggested swapping the range and refrigerator, and/or moving the refrigerator to the pantry, and/or moving the cleanup sink to the exterior wall, however, IMHO, doing these create new issues and tradeoffs, so I have decided that:

1. The range will stay on its current wall, exactly where it is. I have no problem reconfiguring the cabinetry around the fridge, but do want to maintain the symmetrical look
2. The refrigerator will stay on its current wall, but it can move anywhere on this wall
3. Sinks will remain in the island(s)
4. We really like the dual island layout. Doing a L-shaped island is out, we don't like the looks, and a single island would just be too large.

I did incorporate many suggestions in this revised layout:

1. Cleanup sink and dishwashers moved to second island suggested by lisa_a
2. Slightly wider aisles suggested by Susan Serra (tivoli_rose)
3. Reduced depth base cabinets on range wall suggested by sena01
4. Live_wire_oak suggested the original layout wouldn�t for a couple of cooks on a quick meal or a team of caterers, but I think the new layout does define the work zones more clearly, and allow for multiple cooks. Herbflavor also agreed zones needled help.
5. More prep space as suggested by remodelfla and lisa_a
6. Lisa_a suggested we don't have the wall cabinets flanking range go all the way down to counter to counter space and a landing zone for plates going to dining room. We kept them to the counter, but pulled them back each side to give more counter space in that area.
7. Drop microwave to 24" and added prep tool storage suggested by breezygirl


Known Issues:

1. We will still have to traverse aisles from the range. I think we can live with this

2. Construction of second island.

a. Fitting the shelf of the stages sink above the second dishwasher and all into a 33" base. I should be able to cut the sides of the base to fit the large bowl, and lower the dishwasher feet so the shelf can fit above the dishwasher. I did see this on another thread.

b. Building enough structure to support the countertop with only a single base cabinet. I should be able to use a sheet of plywood across the back, connected to panels on the end to make sort of an interior H-beam.

3. Ducks in a row seating, not the best


Specific questions:

1. On the refrigerator wall, We were thinking maintaining the built in look would be best, but then we would have to use 24" deep wall cabinets on the left and right, either leaving nowhere for our blender and toaster oven, or a too deep appliance garage. Not sure what to do on this wall, or with the 2 appliances (They-re used often)

2. Where can we still cooking oils and spices? Maybe some kind of stainless rack on the range wall, but not sure if that will take away from the look of the glass tile.

3. Where to stick cookbooks. I was thinking just in one of the wall cabinets, but we were hoping to have a cubby hole somewhere, but maybe it would just be more messy looking than it would be worth

4. Any cabinet type, size or location changes or cabinet accessories anyone can recommend?

5. Will the 21" deep base cabinets on the range wall look odd?

6. Will diners at the bar have enough depth without their drinks falling in the sink?

7. Do the trash bins look like they are in good locations?

8. Any other thoughts?

Thank you for every comment, every suggestion, every criticism or complement. We truly appreciate everyone here.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands Part 2

Range wall elevation.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands Part 2

Refer wall elevation.

This post was edited by teamj on Sun, Sep 15, 13 at 21:29


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I don't think the kholer will fit in a 33" base. A 33" base has an interior of around 31.5" to 31.75". It could be around 1/4" less if your cabinets are framed. A lot of framed cabinets have their side walls set back from the corner of the frame a little bit to allow for fitting issues.

The sink is 32.25" wide before it hits the shorter side. That includes one of the flanges but not the sink clips. I'm thinking the flanges are about 3/4"? You could trim both sides down, I guess.

Then you're left with needing a dishwasher that can fit in a space 32.65" tall. And to find some other place to store the stages stuff. I believe your dishwasher choices are Asko, a few Mieles and Fisher Paykel.

Counter overhangs typically are 3/4" further than the depth of the door.

Maybe take a few moments and contemplate the whole coffee thing - where the cups are, where silverware is, where sugar/sweeteners are, which way the ref doors open, and what happens when the cuppa is too hot. Or people getting coffee while breakfast is being made.

Maybe re-look at how dishes get put away when cooking is also going on, where are people walking when filling/emptying the dishwashers. Also, how bad will it be with the big ref continually opening behind you as you prep?


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Specific questions:
1- For appliances rollout trays can be considered.

http://afriendlyhouse.com/images/uploads/article/1c2b95aa0252670af9ca2a6d161e48ef.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zkHXa-rldRI/TwRjbVR6BZI/AAAAAAAAAmU/3N2sc15kNkg/s1600/DSCN2320.JPG

On the fridge wall, if you move the fridge to the LR side then have coffee and MW in the tall cab and wine fridge at the LR end of prep island, traffic behind the prep zone may be better. So on the prep island you'll have the wine fridge (glasses on the shelves at the back?), then sink or trash and rest the same.

2- Stainless racks- how about on the sides of the wall cabs?

3- If not too many try to find somewhere near the prep zone.

4-

-- At the prep zone you can have something like this for cutting board and knife storage.

http://www.multivu.com/assets/52871/photos/52871-Merillat-cutting-board-md.jpg?1319666947

or these

http://mightyhaus.com/archives/2013/08/storage-cutting-board

http://www.sveakitchens.com/images/features/6.JPG

-- For the wall cabinets

http://www.sveakitchens.com/images/features/2.JPG

-- Probably already familiar with all, but may notice something you missed

http://www.hettich.com/intelligentkitchens/index_en.html

5- I don't think people would notice.

6- Assuming that you won't be doing any cleanup when there are people at the bar, you can keep the cutting board over the sink to prevent accidents--))

7- For prep I'd prefer trash right next to the sink, then prep space. For cleanup, I'd probably end up using a small bin or something near the sink first and then take that to the trash at the back.

8- To have less trouble with the stages sink, you may have the islands similar to the ones you had in your initial layout, that is 2, sinks in one island, and cabs and bar at the other (no drinks falling in the sink).

Sink island can be a few inches longer than the other one since it won't be near the nook.

Or one of your DW can be 18".

Dishes, glasses on the uppers near DR. If the only aim is to have them near the DR, the pantry can serve the same end and will avoid problems when prep/cooking and unloading the DW happens at the same time. This can be changed later but, if you want those plates/glasses in a cab with doors it might be better to decide beforehand.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Sena01,

Thank you for all the links to the accessories, some looked very useful.

I like the change of moving the fridge to the left (toward the living room), but I'm not sure where you are suggesting to move the wine cooler? Top the top of the island, closest to the range?


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Prep island from the LR side: wine, trash, prep sink and 18x14 cab. Or wine, sink, trash, and 18x14 cab, since the fridge (if moved to LR side) wouldn't be right at the back of the sink. However, trash b/w sink and prep space wouldn't be ideal, although it would provide more counter for prep on the range side.

And if you keep some wine glasses on the UTC stainless shelves, people can help themselves to wine without going much deeper into your prep and cleanup zones.

The 24" drawers for knives and prep stuff you have in prep island in your last layout, can go to the fridge wall, some to the place you planned to have the MW, and some under the MW's new location I am suggesting.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

This may be useful.

Here is a link that might be useful: Waste


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I keep thinking these may be the best revisions for me:

1. Keep the wine and coffee next to the fridge as sort of a beverage center.

2. Moved the prep sink 6" closer to the range, still leaving a landing area across from range.

3. Making the islands 3" longer to give a touch more space on bold sides of the cleanup sink.

4. Trash at the end of the island to be convenient for prep and cooking zones.

I also considered moving the prep sink all the way to the end of the island, but I think having the landing zone is better.

Still not sure about having an aisle behind the range, but I think overall the pro's outway the con's in this plan. I keep trying to envision myself doing common tasks within the plan and I do think it works...I hope i'm not overlooking anything!


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Do you cook pasta? Where do you plan to drain it? The prep sink is 90 degrees and a few steps from the range. I know you're designing for looks, but imagine yourself cooking, chopping, prepping etc. with no easy access to water.

That being said, best of luck with your design.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

You really should swap the range and refrigerator locations. I know you don't want to hear it, but it would make a better focal point, and give you better function. It's win/win. The above plan is too full of compromises for function. Plus, the view from the family room where you will spend a lot of time.is of a giant refrigerator. You say looks is more important, so make looks from where you will see it a priority. Make that back wall the focal point it deserves to be.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Lavender,

I did think about that and that's why I was considering just moving the sink to the end of the island. There it won't matter which way it's oriented and it will give more prep space on the run. The drawback is that will take away from having a nice landing area across from the range, and also take away the ability to prep on the short side of the island.

I wasn't sure which way it better.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Holly,

You have superb advice so I do respect your idea, but moving the fridge to the upper wall (and the range to the dining wall) creates it's own compromises.

Namely:

That would add alot of traffic deep into the kitchen.

Likely the cleanup sink would also be moved to be facing the wall instead of out to the room, otherwise what else would you put on that long run.

And it takes away the landing zone across from the fridge.

BTW, the fridge is actually beautiful! Have you seen a Pro-48G in person yet?

This post was edited by teamj on Sun, Sep 22, 13 at 15:36


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Teamj- I think Holly is just saying to swap the fridge and range...not the other changes. Something like this? Holly, please correct me, if I'm wrong :)

From Kitchen plans


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Lavender,

The fridge can't go there. There is a transom window in the counter space, right in the center of the top wall.

TJ


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Teamj - You have been quite a good trooper to many of us suggesting that you need to rethink things.... at the end of the day it's your space and you know the big picture of the floorplan of the house, what you want, other limitations, etc. I do think that you have a lot of potential given the size of the space you are working with and what appears to be a hefty budget (given appliances listed, etc) but as it stands now you may end up with a lot of inefficiencies and a space with a lot of problem areas.

Some thoughts:
- In your current layout, I don't love the fact that your range and fridge wall have so little counter space. Your range wall is 18-19 feet long right? Yet, you have cabinets to the counter and have really boxed in the range.

- On the fridge wall there is so much cabinetry and so many built-in appliances. If you're going for looks, I think it's overkill and you will take away from the looks of Pro48G. I have a Pro48G in my kitchen. I love it - it's definitely a statement appliance - think about how it will look overwhelmed by the cabinetry and other appliances.

- Have you thought about the fact that you have your cleanup space closest to breakfast/family room? How are you going to feel about it when dishes, pots, etc. are left in there during a party or just in general? That's not the most attractive thing to look at and will make you a slave to keeping it immaculate or may detract from your space

- Given you have so little perimeter counter space, your islands are going to be extremely chaotic. Anytime people are in the kitchen they will have to turn to put something down - for example, a cup of coffee when they way to add milk, sugar, etc. You will have major traffic jams around and in between.

- Have you really worked through how the clean-up space will function? How will it work when you are loading/unloading dishes? Where are you putting dishes away? I see some cabinets on the perimeter will house dishes/glasses - have you worked through having a d/w door open and getting around to those cabs?

- You said in your other thread that you added the second dining room entrance so that you didn't have a corner in your kitchen. The thing about your space though is that you can't really do anything without crossing through a walkway to another space - again this may just feel extremely chaotic when you are entertaining.

I opened up your last thread and when through some of your responses and other options. Not sure where you are at structurally, but I really think you should reconsider your transom window. I don't think it goes with the space as you described it (white shaker, etc) and I just think natural light is a stunning element in kitchens.

- Going back to your last thread - did you ever consider putting the refrigerator at the end of the of transom wall and that way you could still have your pantry? I'm not saying this for a particular option in your last thread - just that you shut down putting the sink on the fridge wall because you didn't want to move the fridge to the pantry. Maybe this would work.

Good luck, teamj! I wish nothing but a fantastic space for you - I just hope these thoughts, comments, can help you avoid pitfalls in your planning.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Aokat15,

Thank you for reading through both threads and for your detailed response. I am truly grateful for all of the advice I have received from GW’s community, and I hope to repay it forward when I can.

Yes, the size and budget are decent, but I keep running into design challenges and seemingly no great way to fix them!

As for the lack of counter space; I agree…I was thinking maybe I should keep one built in wall, such as the fridge wall, and do one traditional upper/lower wall, such as the range wall. Then I will have approx. 6’ of counter each side of the range. BUT, the 15” uppers would likely then be too deep above the 21” base cabinets, and 12” cabinets don’t fit my plates! So fixing one problem creates another.

As for the PRO48G being overwhelmed by the other appliances and cabinets; My favorite look for this fridge is freestanding, but I don’t think I have any place to do that without taking away from somewhere/something else. Doing the builts in here was a compromise to fit the other appliances without moving them to the range wall and messing with the symmetry there. I need to check the install specs, but possibly I can still use the freestanding kit, just placed next to the tall cabinet.

The cleanup space close to living areas…To me, not a big deal, as looking out to the room I think is better than looking into a wall, and if dishes sit there momentarily it wouldn't bother me that much. You’re right however, in that putting dishes away will be several steps away (likely to the wall cabinets to the left of the range), and even moving prep stuff over the first island then across the aisle to the DWs won’t be super convenient, but not that bad either.

As far as the corner opening, I don’t have to put that in, but I think the benefit of opening up the home’s floorplan and letting in some additional light into the kitchen are worth the negatives.

Transom is fixed. Builder will not add/remove any windows.

When you say move the fridge to the end of the wall, I assume you mean to the left of the range? That would draw more traffic into the kitchen in my mind. Where it is in the latest plan allows someone coming from pretty much any room to come in and grab something quickly without going too deep. I think it would also detract from the massive and symmetrical range wall.

As I said earlier, it seems like each change adds new challenges:

1. Moving the range to the left wall requires putting the fridge in the pantry or to the range wall, giving the same problem as mentioned above (making people getting a drink go too deep into the work areas)
2. Going to one island makes it too big and overlaps zones.
3. Moving the prep sink to the end of the first island kills the landing space at the end.
4. Etc.
5. Etc.

Thank you again for the well wishes!

And, the more I obsess over the plan the more I think I’m either going to have to live with some compromises or rethink the plan altogether and start over, but I wouldn’t even know where to begin then! I really don’t have a plan B.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

aokat has presented thoughtful and useful ideas very diplomatically and I concur. It's difficult to tell someone their kitchen plan doesn't work well -- no one wants to hear that. So sorry.

Based on the sketches (which without full dimensions don't provide all the information) there will be a domino effect from any change or any plan because the kitchen has no unbroken walls. Essentially, it looks like a big square hallway leading off in all directions. So there's basically no perimeter, no corner. That is the nut of the layout issue.

Additionally, if the plan is drawn accurately, I would look to resolve the sightlines. The main entrance from the LR, f.ex. doesn't line up with the center of the fridge wall or the left island. Things like this don't look serious on a plan but they can be glaring when it's built.

The fridge and the range need their respective walls. So the burden is pretty much completely on the island configuration to make it work and to provide sufficient counter space.

IMO due to the configuration of the room there needs to be two solid work zones -- one for the fridge and one for the range. To me, that says U shape island, an L shape island, or a giant square that occupies a good deal of the center.

Any of these will provide the basic structure and each has its own set of pros and cons to be explored.

The current placement of the "main" sink in a second island has no relationship to anything else. The main sink needs to be opposite the refrigerator -- the way the prep sink is opposite the range. Whether or not the sink needs to be downsized to 36" so it's in proportion will depend on how that lays out.

That changes the traffic pattern. But it makes the kitchen functional in a way the current plan doesn't.

Judging from your responses there has been a huge amount of input from a large number of posters. No idea if this has been raised in the past but it needs to be considered IMO.

You seem to be saying this is the only plan you can see. And as aokat said, I wish you well with whatever you choose to do.

But there are definitely other solutions and one of them can ultimately result in a more functional kitchen.

Here is a link that might be useful: Big Square Island kitchen


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I guess you have 36" wide uppers reaching the counter in your latest layout. What about having 24" wide, reaching counter and another 24", 18" above counter? That would give you an additional 12" counter on both sides of the range, so 24" in total. In uppers you loose 12" w, 18" h part above counter, but gain 12" more width in the higher parts of the wall (obviously a lot more than 18", but not so easily accessible).


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

have you thought of making the middle island a wall with some good architectural element to it.... creating a mini galley with the fridge run and sink/cabinets on the side of wall facing fridge.......on the family room side of wall, do a serious focal type decoration......then more outwardly keep the island with seating. Range can go back on the side perimeter on the top...is that what you really want?


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Hi teamj - I saw the "two island" post and had to read. When I was planning my kitchen, I could hardly find two island examples. I'll post some pics for anyone else who's looking to do two islands.

I have a similar layout to yours- we have two islands. But like someone suggested, I have the range on the wall where your fridge is (the view from the family room is the range). I also have two entrances to the next room on that wall. I'm adding the picture so you can see what the range & fridge swap looks like.

the reasoning for my range position is because I wanted the non-cooks to stay out of my cooking space. We did the double sinks so if you're not cooking, you're gonna help with the dishes.

I wasn't worried about the pile-up of pots, dishes, etc. But I have deep sinks, so if things were to pile up, the view of dirty dishes is minimal.

I agree with another post about having the trash near the sink. when you're prepping, you'll want to throw out trash and when you're washing dirties, you may want to throw out the food scraps. You don't want to walk far for throwing out stuff.

Our outer island is where we set up food during parties. My thought was that everyone hangs out around the island at every one of our parties, so I kept that island clear. We have counter-height backless stools that slide under the counter on the family room side of the island.

Hope the pics give you another view of a possible layout.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Here is the view standing in the family room facing the kitchen. I know your Pro-48 is a beautiful fridge, but when it was suggested to swap the fridge with the range, I thought of my layout. Hope this helps with the thought process! Or I hope it helps anyone else designing their kitchen.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Rococogurl,

The sightlines I can’t do anything about. Lining up the island with the LR entrance would mean an unacceptable aisle width.

We just don't like the shape of a U or L island, and a single island would end up being a continent as an earlier poster mentioned.

However, your comment about the main sink in the second island does make sense, but moving it (and the dishwashers) to the main island I think would hurt the prep area.

But, Thank you for all the insights!

Sena01,

Excellent idea. Or we could just pull all the range wall cabinets up to 18” above counter.

Herbflavor,

No, we don't want to block the view with any walls. We want to keep it as open as possible.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Niblickchick,

Your kitchen is beautiful, thank you for posting!

Is that a breakfast area to the side of the second island, in front of the glass door?

We have a breakfast nook approximately where that area is.

Yes, I agree about the dishes. I’m not worried about them either.

If we did move the range to the wall where you have yours, then our cleanup sink would have to move to where the range was (we have a 12” transom window in the middle of that wall). This would basically be Option # 6 from the prior thread (Revised version attached). Here’s our thoughts on this plan, I welcome anyone to tell me what I’m not seeing!

PROs
We would gain having the prep and water directly across from the range.
Cleanup more convenient to prep area, but only slightly.

CONs
People need to go deep in the kitchen to get a drink
Fridge won’t really have a great landing zone.
Cleanup sink looking into the wall instead of out to the room.
We lose the massive long wall to make the range and hood a great focal point with the glass tile wall and the symmetrical cabinetry flanking it.

This post was edited by teamj on Tue, Sep 24, 13 at 23:26


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

CONs
People need to go deep in the kitchen to get a drink I think if you have an undercounter fridge ,(another) MW?, and wine fridge at the bar island this won't be a problem.

Fridge won’t really have a great landing zone. over the DW?

Cleanup sink looking into the wall instead of out to the room. Maybe keeping the glass tiles would improve.

We lose the massive long wall to make the range and hood a great focal point with the glass tile wall and the symmetrical cabinetry flanking it. I think it would still look very attractive. If I remember right your inspiration pic had nearly the same dimensions. Wouldn't it be possible to have a pass through (with glass blocks) there? It could also bring additional light to the kitchen.

As to your other layout with range on the outer wall, another alternative for the uppers (if there'd still be enough space for your plates): 24" wide, 15" deep to counter+ 24" wide, 12" deep, 18" above counter. Area with 12" uppers+ the cabs next to them would give a more comfortable additional prep space around the range.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

If you will have a transom window on that wall, just add a window UNDER that window. All of the engineering work is done, and the header for the window exists. All that's needed is the window. Or skip the transom window in favor of the window in the wall above the sink. It's really not a big deal for a construction crew to do this if the window gets ordered.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Holly, the transom window on the range wall is in the counter area, not above the cabinets. It is 12" tall, and the center is 45" above floor.

Further, the community will not allow any exterior window changes, so I am 100% stuck with either the range or cleanup sink centered on that wall.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Sorry if this has already been asked...but code allows you to have the clerestory directly over the range, right?

If so, then I have an idea...but I want to make sure this is possible, first :)


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Lavender_lass,

Yes, code is ok. The window has to be non-operable, which it is.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I made some additional improvements to the layout based on some of the latest suggestions:

1. Wine cooler moved closer to DR
2. Base cabinets flanking range back to 24" deep, wall cabinets closest to range back to 18" above counter
3. Tall pantry near fridge moved to end of run, with reduced depth base cabinets in between to have varying depths
4. Prep sink moved to end corner of primary island so it can service prep and cooking zones.
5. Islands lengthened slightly

Are we getting closer???


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Latest range wall.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Latest fridge wall.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I see a lot of activity going on b/w the fridge wall and prep zone at breakfast time, with coffee/toaster/fridge/prep filling a small part of your large kitchen.

I don't know if it could work with the pantry entrance, but would you consider closing the entry to DR on the LR side? There, you can have a filler or narrow pantry, then fridge, coffee (+MW?), base cabs for toaster etc, and either a full height or base cab with an under counter fridge for anything you'd need in the dining room. I think, this could free some part of your prep zone.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I am exploring the idea of closing the dining room entry as suggested.

I don't think I am getting as many negative comments on the latest layout so I think I am headed in the right direction!


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Sorry, I got busy and meant to stop back by, sooner :)

Here's my idea. I don't know if it will work, but it would give you a sink near the range, still have your prep sink by the fridge/breakfast area and your clean up on the other island. What do you think?

From Kitchen plans


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Great idea to close up that second entry to the dining room. It gives a much-needed corner.

Also, flipping the range and the fridge wall helps the sightlines.

Everyone had different needs/wants in the kitchen but there are still layout issues that don't parse.

Usually, with an island, the prep area and a sink of some kind is opposite the range so you can turn around to it. That's not the orientation. Currently there looks to be a 36" end.

So if there's an 4 to 8-quart pot of spaghetti to drain, that hot, heavy pot must be shlepped 10+ feet across the kitchen to be drained with the most recent layout. I don't feel that works.

That's why lavenderlass' idea of prep sink where the door is smart. It could be centered in that space and that's far more functional even though the counter on each side is smallish because the sink in that space is no longer too far away. (I assume there will be a pot filler at/near the range). But then there's no dishwasher anywhere near the prep sink.

At least that would get the prep sink off the first island -- that would provide the counter space which still looks to be lacking.

For me, the Stages sink is still in Siberia. The only way that works (and perhaps it's designed for this) is if there is one person who does clean up and goes around the kitchen gathering up everything that needs to be washed in the main sink and loaded in the dws. If there is fulltime, live-in help, this could work.

Otherwise, the clean up is too far away from the prep. Plus, I don't understand stool seating kitchen overlooking the clean up sink -- the view is dirty dishes.

But it's good that you are hearing some of the suggestions and making adjustments. Hopefully, you will keep going. I know it's hard to see other views without fresh eyes. But trust the forum. The wisdom wills out time and again.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Lavender & Rococogurl, Did you see on my latest "latest" design I did actually move the prep sink to the end of the island, and therefore pretty close to the range.

I do agree that the cleanup is in Siberia.

What about this idea?: Stages sink at the top end of each island, with a dishwasher at each. Then they would serve double duty (each could be used for prep or cleanup). The first island would be used most often, and the second could just be used when needed.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Hi again Teamj! A couple of questions as I have been mulling over possible layout changes:

1) How set are you on your fridge selection? I love my Pro48G, but I'm wondering if having an all fridge/all freezer set-up (paneled like a hutch or stainless) may work better for your layout. Look at kateskourus, niffy, and maybe try houzz for other pics. I'm thinking your fridge wall could work much better that way with counterspace in between the two units. Or maybe even see how it would work if the units were on either end of the range wall (maybe in that case paneled to give you a similar elevation to what you have above). Are you open on the fridge? If so, I'll try to draw some suggestions up.

2) Would you be open to different size islands (I see you have them basically the same size now)? I would prefer the first island to be a little bigger - especially given that it's across from the 60" range. I'm thinking about having the clean-up and prep in that first island with no sink in the island with seating. This though would also be dependent on the fridge wall and not having the drop zone in the clean-up sink, so it goes back to my question #1.

Also, a follow-up point to what you noted after my earlier post.

- Have you thought about putting your dishes in drawers? I went with a lot of windows in my kitchen in lieu of uppers, so I have my dishes in drawers and I LOVE it!! No matter what kitchen space I have going forward I will always do drawers again. It's easier for grabbing plates and I too had large dishes that didn't fit in 12 or 13" cabs. Something to think about as you mentioned above needing the uppers on the range wall to be deep.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

This is getting better!

Are you using custom cabinets? It seems weird to be concerned with fitting a particular sink into a particular base and with this type of kitchen, you don't want to be constrained by 3 inch increments!


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Hi Aokat,

1. We are set on that fridge. We love everything about it…stainless interior, glass door, glow, style, size, etc.
2. Yes I would consider different size islands. The first could be wider and hold both sinks, and the first could also be longer as well (the second can not be as long as it would encroach into the main walkway into the FR)
3. I don’t think we mind the dishes in drawers. I actually think for the uppers flanking the range, we should drop to 21” wide, freeing up 6” of clear counter space on each side. (we plan to use single door cabinets on these uppers, and a 24” door seems too large)

Fori,

No we are not using custom. At this time we are looking at Kraftmaid in Dove White or Canvas, with one of their glazes. We are open to other brands, we just have used Kraftmaid in the past and were satisfied.

To fit the large sink into the small base we would cut one side of the base, and push the edge of the large bowl against the other side. Then hang the tray of that sink over one of the dishwashers. Using a small base allows the overall island length to be kept to a minimum and still fit 2 DW.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I didn't see the last set. I was commenting on the one LL drew on.

Her suggestion to close the second entry to the dining room and put the prep sink there made sense. The "pro" is a much-needed corner. Yet I feel that decision should be predicated on use -- how much and often the d.r. is used? How many will it seat? If there will be large catered dinners or frequent big meals, or staff coming and going, then 2 entries is better. If it's only occasional use then the door is less of a loss.

That doesn't alleviate other serious functional issues. Now I'm referring to the floor plan you posted @ :46. Without dimensions on everything, however, it's still a bit confusing.

I can see there is not, IMO enough aisle space in the range and fridge aisles. That is the place to adhere to the NKBA guideline of 48" minimum. I'd get that by lining up the ends of both islands with the end of the fridge and making them both the same length, otherwise it will look ragtag. Lose the "ears" on Is-1 which are guaranteed hip bruisers.

The aisle between the islands could be cheated a little.

I wouldn't change the fridge. I love that fridge. It's the best looking one on the market for unpaneled IMO.

Re Is-1. Prep sink you referred to could not have a worse placement IMO than on the end of Is-1. I'd put a heat proof counter or chopping block there across the entire width (is that 36 or 42" unclear) x 24" to make it usable for the range.

I'd put the prep sink on the fridge run next to what's now marked as the tall pantry. I'd lose that pantry (do and upper and lower) and put DW-1 there. I'd put trash bin right next to fridge.

Coffee/breakfast and dishes move to Is-2 where seating & usage makes sense. I'd put the micro on that island as well along with a second trash bin. (Alternate micro placement would be on range end of Is-1 facing Is-2.) Is-2 is then no longer Siberia. It functions for breakfast, lunch, snacks, drinks, brunch, buffets. It has huge storage. It provides the missing counter space. I'd also suggest a set of fridge drawers there -- handy though not essential.

Stages sink moves to Is-1, centered. Fridge side would be preferrred placement though it could go on opposite side if you want it more out of the way (which you seem to want). DW-2 goes to right of sink. But with cutting boards that slide on that sink I feel it works best on fridge side. Prep can then be close to fridge and convenient to range with option of either sink and trash in between. Functional. Prep sink steps from range. Main sink near entries from dining room where the dirty dishes naturally come in. View across when seated eating of pretty fridge vs slop sink.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Thu, Oct 3, 13 at 10:47


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Lavender & Rococogurl,

Your idea of the prep sink in the corner is really starting to grow on me. I think this might be the answer I am looking for.

I have a few questions:

1. Since the scale of the kitchen is oversize, should I do higher than normal backsplash area, maybe 24" over the prep sink and continue that on the range wall?

2. What is your opinion of the best way to handle the upper wall cabinets in the corner? Maybe dead end the cabinets on the range wall into the corner and then have a gap before starting some open shelves or other cabinets above the prep sink?

3. What depth to use for the upper cabinets if I do go over the sink? Would 15" work?

4. What was the reason to put the microwave on the back side of island 1? Wouldn't facing the refrigerator be more useful? We don't eat a lot of processed food, but mainly for heating up leftovers.

5. I don't see any place for the built in coffee maker near island 2. It should be above 36" from the floor, and needs 22" of depth, so it can't go on the range wall unless I increase the depth of the uppers there. Would this location really be that much more preferential than say, to the left of the refrigerator?
6. I am also thinking a Stages 33" would work in the corner sink, and still leave about 36" on either side of counter.

7. Last I still need a place for the UTC wine cooler? Maybe in island #2, but that and refrigerator drawers would eat up all the storage you mentioned there.

By the way, those weren't ears on island #1, I was planning on open shelving between the cabinets. The top would still be rectangular.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Sorry, I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but could you just turn your islands 90 degrees so you have the island parallel to the range wall and not the island wall? I've lost track of how your sightlines work, so maybe they would be a problem.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I would need actual dimensions on the kitchen floor plan sketch to give answers to questions you're asking.

That includes overall dimensions of the room and ceiling height, wall lengths, island dimensions, length of each counter. The same is true for elevations. Are there any actual building plans available? Those basics are what one needs to comment effectively.

The decision about where the prep sink and 1 dw goes is basically the key to the plan. It's tail wagging dog but, IMO, many kitchens have that aspect especially when there are no unbroken walls.

There doesn't appear to be any windows in the room so I'm wondering about lighting? I'd be more concerned about that than about tile at this point.

For me, tile is a function of scale and is a key to the design and overall look of the kitchen. It doesn't look oversized for what you are wanting to put in there.

Re microwave. Placement on the range end of Is-1 makes it accessible for reheating by the cook or by others. Perhaps I missed specifics of how many there are in the family -- again, it's another question of overall function.

I happen to love the Kohler Stages sinks but the drawback is that they take up much of the cabinet space below them. Also, they come in set sizes but the bowls are smaller than the overall.

Julien makes excellent SS sinks and has a huge range of sizes both in terms of length and width. If installed properly they can also have sliding cutting boards and sliding utensil basket/colanders. That might be a more practical choice for a prep sink which would provide more actual sink bowl bang since the space is somewhat limited. Worth a look.

Here is a link that might be useful: Julien


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Here is the revised layout with changes suggested by Lavender and Rococogurl.

I was thinking dead end the uppers into the left side of the range wall and just use open shelving above small sink.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Just for clarification, I didn't suggest putting a Kohler stages sink over either dishwasher because it's not possible. My suggestion for was to look at a Julien or other prep sink that will fit because that space looks very tight.

But again, without the facts of the overall dimensions for the room and specific dimensions for every cabinet on the sketch --not just islands -- it's not possible to know what to suggest for a number of other basic things on the plan that need adjustment.

Way better on the aisles. Overall better. Clever placement of coffee cabinet if the style and proportioning can be made to work with the front of the fridge.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I like this so much better! The upper cabinets around the range look great...and the shelves over the prep sink are a wonderful idea.

I'm no appliance expert, but I'm sure you can find a sink and dishwasher that will work together, on the island. This just looks so much more natural to me...cooking at range, turn to the left, take a few steps and dump pasta. Grab something out of the fridge and go back to cooking.

The first island (left) looks great, but I'd think about having a small prep/bar sink, just to assist with your breakfast and coffee area. This will be a great place to chop veggies and make salads, desserts, etc. I think you'll like the prep space...and the sink is handy to the fridge and not too far from range. I just didn't like (as I'm sure you noticed LOL) that you had to kind of 'sashay' sideways to dump pasta, from the range.

The big sink and dishwasher, might be better on second (right) island, only because the sink takes up so much space. Don't get me wrong...I'm sure it will be beautiful, but I'd want some prep space on the first island. This one will be perfect for clean up and chatting with guests. Also closer to breakfast nook for dropping off dishes :)


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I am still having a very difficult time about how to handle the uppers over the prep sink on the left wall. The edge of the sink bowl would be about 24" from the corner, so I barely would have any room for a corner upper cabinet to transition to a shorter upper cabinet.

Also, how high should my uppers be over this sink?

I originally though to use open shelving on this wall, but that might not look proportioned with very tall uppers on the range wall and a tall pantry to the left of the fridge, then nothing to the right of the fridge.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Any luck? I come up with this. The one on the right of fridge, reaching the counter is 9" deep (so you loose prep space), the others I have 60" above counter, width/height depends on what you have around them.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Sena,

Here is what I have working so far, see what you think:


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Latest Range Wall


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Floorplan


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I like the arrangement of the wall cabs and having no counter reaching uppers near a sink is a good decision imo. You wouldn't want water to ruin your cabs.

Now that you have the cleanup sink in the corner, I think 15" b/w counter and uppers can be okey, but a shelf below that level may narrow down your faucet choices, and will probably be not very comfortable when you're working there.

If it's just the two of you, then having the MW in your prep area or not, depends on your routine. We don't use it much, but I keep reading on the forum that many with kids prefer the MW outside their prep zone.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Sena, thank you for the MW outside the prep zone idea. I read up on it and I think that's a great option.

However, I am still struggling with the plan.

For one, I'm not sure how the sink will look in the corner, facing the wall, too close to the corner, with the sink off center in the cabinet.

I'm not sure I like the idea of a seam, which will be required in that corner.

I was thinking maybe I would be better off with one sink and one dishwasher in each island; maybe the 45" stages in the first island, and a smaller sink in the second,

Then maybe go 33" high between the fridge and the corner, then 36" from the corner to the range, using the split levels to avoid a seam.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

The ELEPHANT is that you won't swap the range to the other wall to be parallel to the islands so you can USE those islands for workspace. Or else turn the islands to be parallel to the range location that you seem determined to keep. All of the other tweakery doesn't address that major issue that is keeping the entire design from being functional. That prep sink in the corner keeps you in the corner like you've got a time out and are being punished. In that giant kitchen, that's where you're going to be spending 80% of your time. Do you REALLY want to keep your back to everyone like that?

Your priority seems to be keeping that range wall intact at the price of overall functionality. You need to examine what that is doing to the design. And for what? That's not a view that you will get but infrequently. The main view that you will spend the most time looking at is from across the family room. And since you are so visually focused, that would seem to be the more logical place for the central focus of the kitchen. Why do you feel it should be the secondary focal area?


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Momto4kids used to post here and has a two-island kitchen posted in the Finished Kitchens Blog. She is very happy with her two island setup. Maybe a look at her layout will help. I haven't read your entire thread, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before.

Here is a link that might be useful: Not sure how much of this is still accessible


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I don't entirely agree with holly about placement. But I do feel that an acceptable layout could be worked out.

However, this kitchen has occupied the better part of two threads now and there is still no functional plan. I don't understand that process. One suggestion gets made and the entire kitchen shifts but with no regard to what will fit or what won't or what will function well or not.

Likewise, comments/questions intended to be helpful go unresponded to.

If there is no time limit for actually building this and the goal is to have only what you want regardless of how it will function then proceed apace.

If the goal is to have a kitchen that multiple posters here who don't know you, don't care what you build, and don't have any stake in this at all except to be good and knowledgeable sounding boards are all saying the kitchen is a hot mess over and over, then the calling is to either decide on your own or actually listen and respond to what folks here are suggesting, one change at a time. Because from the small amount of what I've seen on this thread that's not what's happening.

Perhaps it might an architect or kitchen designer were engaged to sit down and cut through the gordion knot of the layout, then sign off on it.

No one can make that decision for you.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

The original builder's home plan with the awkward angles was better than the two island version that you seem determined to keep. The" temple to fire" focal point from the home's hall entry IS a nice focal point. But, it shouldn't strangle the development of a better floor plan that could be had. And, it's doing just that.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

We also have a two island kitchen, albeit a somewhat smaller version than the OP's. and, yes, the stove is on the same wall as the fridge and the main sink is where the OP has her range. Hollysprings, based on my limited experience with my own set-up, I feel that you are 100% correct - either the stove has to move or the islands need to rotate 90 degrees.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Holly,

I would gladly slay the elephant and move the range, but that causes some new issues; the cleanup sink would then go where the range is and look out into a tiny transom window, then the bulky fridge would either be stuck in the corner or too close to the living room. So weighing EVERYTHING, the range seems best suited where it is.

And I agree, the more I look at the sink in the corner, the more it does feel like a time out.

Roco,

Believe me, I am considering carefully every piece of advice given here. I am not taking anything lightly, just when I try to implement things, new problems arise. For example the sink in the corner was supposed to be a solution. Now I revised the layout to have that, and it now seems (from advice of other posters) that facing the sink into the corner isn’t such a great solution after all. Yes I have to make the final decision, but it isn’t so cut and dry to sort the advice and figure out what works and what doesn't.

Green,

Did you have any idea of a better floor plan? Especially keeping the range where it is?

Akrogirl,

The islands cannot rotate 90 degrees unless they are a lot skinnier. To fit 2 islands with decent aisles would require them reduced to about 26” deep, and the second island would no longer support seatings.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Would below layout solve some of the problems?

Total depth of islands increased by 2", but offset by 2" decrease in aisle b/w two islands.

Cleanup sink close to the range. I couldn't decide where you'd prefer the MW, so indicated alternatives where I thought it could go.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Sena,

Thank you again for your input, you have been EXTREMELY helpful.

Both sinks in the first island is how I started the original thread!!! Nobody seemed to like it, although you have much more prep space on the fridge side of that island than I had originally.

Also, I really like the side seat on the second island.

I am ok with 2 different size islands as well, I think I am going to experiment with some variants.

Also, assuming I can figure out the sinks and islands, no one commented on the thought of dropping the counter height to 33" somewhere along the run between the fridge and corner to avoid having a countertop seam.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Something like this...


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Both sinks in the first island is how I started the original thread!!! Nobody seemed to like it

I can only speak for myself. It wasn’t the number of sinks on one island that I disliked. What I didn't (and still don't) like, is to have island(s) running vertical to the range, and horizontal to the fridge wall. Both the range and the hood are wide, so I think wider side of the islands should be in front of it, not two narrow rows. And the fridge is long, but only the top part of it will be visible when you have the long side of the islands in front of the fridge. Both the range and fridge walls look fabulous when you look at them separately, but with the islands in front of them, the way they are placed now, all the charm is gone imo. So, although I have no expertise in this area, I think you should reconsider your decisions no. 1 and 2 indicated at the beginning of this tread


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

In the end it is your kitchen and you need to make a plan that makes sense for you. Every time you post a plan, there will be someone who does not like it or can make suggestions.

That said, when you find the plan that is best for you, it should feel right. And it seems you are still not liking a plan enough to stick to it.

I wish I remember where I read it, but I remember a few pointers on kitchen organization layout that make sense to me.

1) Silverware is often the last thing grabbed, so it should be as close to the eating area as possible and not deep in the kitchen.

2)Tupperware/plastic wrap/ziplock bags are oftenused in putting food away or prep. So they should be closer to the clean up area.

3)Microwaves are often used, have a useful area with a flat surface since it is a commonly used appliance for warming up food and making snacks, especially by kids. It's use should be out of the way so it can be used when someone else is cooking or cleaning up.

4) Store dishes near where they are most used such as glasses near fridge for drinks, coffee cups near coffee maker. But also be aware of distance from dishwasher, since we spend as much time putting away as taking out.

Basically put things where most easily used.

I have only lived with kitchens designed by others,and it is easy to criticize any plan.

Whatever design you go with, it will be carefully thought out for how you and your family live.

And, it will likely be better than what you are living with now.

Good luck with the build!

Lafdr


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I think if you mock up your kitchen layout, you'll see what we're all talking about....as far as the island sink. Try walking around and 'preparing' a meal or two. Does it work or is it very awkward?

If you still like it, then you know it's right for you :)


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Ack, my computer reposted when I hit the back arrows, even though I never hit submit. So I deleted the duplicate.
Lafdr

This post was edited by lafdr on Sun, Oct 20, 13 at 0:40


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Lavender, I have mocked it up and it is starting to feel right. I think there may still be a few minor tradeoffs and construction challenges, but this seems to be the best layout, considering all factors.

Lafdr, thank you for the advice. I think I will use some of those tips.

This layout makes 2 work triangles, the second for kids / snacks with easy access to the microwave, but not moving the microwave too far from the chef. Prep sink at the end of the island makes for easy reach from the range, and leaving maximum prep space on the main island.

This post was edited by teamj on Thu, Oct 24, 13 at 6:20


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Revised Range Wall


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

You still have about 18" of actual prep space next to the prep sink. You won't prep on the long side of the island and then walk around the corner to cook. You'll prep across from the range. The islands still run the wrong way for actual usability. And the cleanup sink has no landing space on one side.

If you want to make an island the prep space, it needs to run lengthwise to the range wall. And that's why you're having so much trouble with the double island concept. The length of the islands is oriented towards the fridge, not the cooking zone.

What about putting the fridge on the range wall all the way down to the left, sorta in the passageway between the DR and kitchen. That's part of the run that won't really be seen from the doorway anyway, which seems to be lost in your elevation views. You NEED to view this in a perspective view, not in elevations. The whole look of the design and it's symmetry isn't seen in real life like you envision it in the elevations. Elevations aren't real views that are ever seen. Perspectives are.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Hi again teamj - I think Green is right on in that elevations don't show you what the space will really look like with the islands in front of the walls. So some of what you are focusing on for aesthetics you will lose in the actual space. For example, wanting the Pro48 to be a focal point on the back wall - you will not see all of it's beauty from the other side of the room.

I know this has already been suggested, but I think you should reconsider moving the fridge to where you currently have the pantry. You have plenty of options for other pantry storage. In fact I think making the first island bigger and having pantry storage as well as dish storage behind the clean-up sink on the back wall would be great (and you could make look fabulous with the cabinetry details). You could perhaps go back to your sink back-to-back first plan here if you wanted another sink in this bigger island. But - first, if you need/want a second sink, think about the sizes you need. You having been drawing in large sinks... I have a 30 inch farmhouse sink and it's huge - I don't know if you need a 42 inch cleanup sink and huge prep sink. Anyway, something in terms of the size of islands and moving the fridge would be more like this:


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

This aligns the range with the islands better, and turns the islands for better work flow.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Aokat,

Hi again!

I am having a hard time reading the text on your revised drawing. What does it say on the wall cabinets flanking the range?

Green,

Turning the islands would not leave enough room for aisles. Even if both islands were only 30” deep, I would have to make the 2 aisles about 36” wide. And the range has to be centered on the top wall, as there is a transom window in the countertop area that I would like centered above the range.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

By the way, this is the how the standard kitchen plan looks, this is before. However, the builder is widening our plan 3', between the range and pantry. We are also extending a few feet longer on the range wall.

You can see the transom window here


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Hit teamj - I just used an old layout of yours from above to edit so I didn't write anything in there... It was whatever you had noted at the time.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

You mean the backsplash window in the pic above? I kept picturing an actual transom above the cabinets.

First point. It's not centered in the pic of the original kitchen.

Second point. Behind the range, it will both need to be tempered glass and have at least 6" of clearance to it from the cooking surface. In other words, the range (and hood) will need to be pulled forward, increasing the expense and difficulty of the installation.

I'd skip doing the transom window entirely if that backsplash window is what you're talking about there. It doesn't add anything to the mix, and is making things more difficult to design around.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I agree with Green, I do not care for the backsplash window, especially off center like that.....

Even adding 3 feet, the two islands look cramped to me, I don't care what is in style, cramming stuff in for the sake of having "it" is never a good plan.

Nancy


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I still don't understand why you can't put a real window there...and the sink. Why is this builder such a tyrant about the windows? There's a window right next to it....and I would never have a dark kitchen, when there's an outside wall right there.

Just my two cents...sorry if I sound grumpy, I think it's time for my tea/caffeine :)


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I am guessing that the issue here is that this is a planned community and the builder is going for a specific look among all the houses from the outside. Personally, I would never agree to build in a situation like that, but what's done is done as far as that goes. And I don't know why a sink with cabs above it can't go on a wall with a backsplash window like that. *sigh* Seems almost crazy that we spent 2 threads arguing about an inaccurately defined window. LOL!

What exactly do you NOT like about the standard build kitchen? When you say you are gaining 3 ft, do you mean that if you kept it exactly as above, the walkway from what looks like the DR to whatever is behind the peninsula would be 3 ft. wider? Why are you gaining those 3 ft, exactly? Is all of this because you want to fill that vacant space?

What is on that wall to the right in the photo? Are those french doors to the entry hall? You say there is a pantry there? None of your drawings really include that wall, so I had assumed it is essentially open. Perhaps the behemoth fridge could go along there somewhere? Would that spark some new layout ideas?

The original layout is actually pretty functional for a builder designed kitchen. You go from fridge to prep sink to cooking zone. The perspective is a little warped, but it seems the island has decent prep space as well as at least a couple feet on either side of the cooktop. Plus, the area between clean-up sink and cooktop makes an excellent secondary prep zone, although they would have a distance and an island barrier to the fridge. I'm not a huge fan of clean-up in front of stools, but other than that, it looks pretty good.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Just move the darn range to the wall backing up to the dining room. The "transom" window will be off center appearing no matter what you do because the cabinets on that "fridge" wall will hide the left part of the back wall no matter what you do.That makes the whole look off centered because you aren't taking that into account. If you want the window "centered" visually, it needs to move to the right in your plan, and since you say that can't be altered, (WHY??) it would be better to eliminate entirely since you've based your design off of a false symmetry.

I'm with LL on this though. Put the sink on that wall with a normal window. Go back to the architectural review board of whatever HOA you are dealing with to get that done if you have to. It will be worth it for the better workflow and the LIGHT that this kitchen is missing. You might as well have it be a total interior room rather than occupy a choice exterior wall. There's no point in having it on an exterior wall unless you use that to your advantage by getting a window there.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Lavender, thank you for the 2 cents! But no matter how much I gripe the window is staying as is.

Control, about the planned community....exactly correct.

Our home will be modified slightly from the picture in these ways:

A. The kitchen shown is 15' from the window wall to the pantry. Ours will be 18'.

B. Our "backsplash" window will be moved from where it is in the picture to 8'5" from the fridge wall (to the window centerline)

And, yes, those doors just visible at the right of the picture are to the pantry. I am open to putting the fridge there, but I don't see what that would add?

Holly, I wish I could convince them to modify the window, but the point is moot. There is zero chance of them approving this, so I need to work with what I have. As for light, there is plenty of glass in the family room and breakfast area, just not in the kitchen proper.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Then just give up and do the plan the builder had. It's FAR better than the wonky double island plans.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Do you have any type of overhead plan that reflects what the builder designed? Maybe that will help us help you modify that into something you want and like. Was it in the first thread? It's impossible to tell from the image island size, aisle widths and length of peninsula, etc. Like I said, the one planned seems pretty functional, but maybe our perception is wrong. It is making me wonder why you have put yourself through all of this and I also wonder if you have started to lose sight of that as well.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

found it, let's start over and modify this plan. It is complicated by the extra 3 ft not being shown on here. but I think we can try. The island in this overhead is woefully inadequate for prep, on that I think we can all agree.

teamj kitchen photo msg0923295832430912320229977png_zps6f5060b0.jpeg


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

It's difficult for me to imagine that this floor plan is the same as the sketch with the two islands, which had multiple entrances.

@cf -- are you sure?

If so, this is a piece of cake. Focal point big sink under that window where the range is planned, extend the island and the rest falls into place.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

They added an extra door to the dining room (in above, that would be lower right corner), removed peninsula, and I believe the kitchen is enlarged to 16.5' x 18'.

Moving sink to window wall is apparently off the table and no matter how much better this kitchen would function if they did that, it will not be considered. But, IMO, turning the islands so they are parallel rather then perpendicular to the range should be strongly considered, as Green Designs showed above. It would even match better with the OP's primary inspiration pictures in the first thread.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

As we all know, every kitchen space has its own limitations -- even those deemed ideal.

When I first saw the plan I thought the kitchen was about 28 x 30 -- which is how it is scaled. It could work at that scale but not well at 18 x 18. Ten pounds don't go into a five pound bag.

But even if someone wants to make that error, in the sketches shown repeatedly, sightlines are off, walls unbalanced, proportions disregarded and those issues never get addressed.

If the sink cannot be on the window wall then that element needs to be dealt with properly -- which is not by working a window into a range guard space. Especially not an MCM horizontal window, off center, framed by two chests-on-chests which will make it all even more exaggerated plus an inspiration picture that indicates elaborate cabinetry details.

Also, the builder's floorplan shows the kitchen/family room wall at 42" high with "raised countertop"-- i.e. open to the family room mostly and a place for stool seating on the f.r. side. In that case, two islands seems bizarre. If the wall is full height then there is one sole sliver of natural light in the weirdest possible place.

In 10 years I've not seen a plan occupy the lengths of two kitchen forum threads with contributions from dozens of posters and remain in this groundhog day mode.

This plan and the sketches the OP keeps changing and posting doesn't seem to correspond. I think this is way beyond rotating. This needs a reboot, a set of priorities and some common sense about the amount of space.

This post was edited by rococogurl on Sat, Oct 26, 13 at 12:58


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

"This plan and the sketches the OP keeps changing and posting doesn't seem to correspond. I think this is way beyond rotating. This needs a reboot, a set of priorities and some common sense about the amount of space."

Could not agree more!

I think it's time for some on site paid professional advice. We're not getting enough information here from the OP to really help at all. I am retired, and only have to take jobs that I want to that are fun. I also play on this forum for fun, and this project has quit being fun.

I don't care for the pulling nails dribble of pertinent info. There has never been an accurate layout of the altered space posted with the final actual dimensions. There's no sense of proportion or even any actual overriding design here other than a rigid attachment to misplaced symmetry that only works on paper. Enough good advice has been given and ignored for me to see the writing on the wall here. Good luck with the project.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Holly,

"Then just give up and do the plan the builder had. It's FAR better than the wonky double island plans."

I never give up. That just not how i'm built. I will find a way, either with the help I am getting here from everyone or some other way...

Controlfreakecs,

"They added an extra door to the dining room (in above, that would be lower right corner), removed peninsula, and I believe the kitchen is enlarged to 16.5' x 18'."

EXACTLY, however the extra door is optional.

"Moving sink to window wall is apparently off the table and no matter how much better this kitchen would function if they did that, it will not be considered."

Not that it won't be considered, it just can't be considered because the community will not allow the modification of that window.

"But, IMO, turning the islands so they are parallel rather then perpendicular to the range should be strongly considered, as Green Designs showed above."

The issue with this is 2 islands won't fit that way, and 1 island in the space would likely be too large.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I think you need to back away from the floorplans and drawings and think about what you really want from the kitchen, and what your constraints are, and then come back to it. I think that would help clarify your thinking -- it's so easy to get caught up in the details and carry-on effects of changes that you lose sight of the overall project.

For example, you state that moving the sink to the window wall can't be considered because the community won't let the window be modified. But I don't see why not being able to modify the window means the sink can't go under the window. There must be some other reason you think it won't work -- what is it and how important is it to you? Maybe trying listing your needs and wants and prioritizing them. Similarly, are 2 islands a necessity or a strong preference? Where does functionality rank? On this point, it sounds like you and your wife do cook, so I would urge you not to discount the hassle of dealing with a kitchen that will drive you or your wife crazy or cause you stress if you have kids -- picture carrying a hot pot of pasta water across the kitchen to drain it while a 3 year old darts through your cooking zone in order to get from the family room to the dining room.

Once you have your priorities listed, then maybe turn back to a floorplan that includes only the structural elements that can't move and start from there.

Or you could just hire a professional and save yourself some stress...


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I know you don't want this, but just to show how it might look here are 2 renderings.

Next to wine is an utc fridge and coffee above it. MW is next to fridge, sinks are on the islands.

 photo big11.jpg

 photo big2.jpg


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

SENA,

I do like your new idea. I had not considered moving the range while leaving the sinks in the islands. One of the reasons I never wanted to move the range is I didn't think the cleanup sink would look right under that thin window. This fixes that issue.

Also this arrangement allows the islands to be about 6" longer and still maintain a good aisle width between the window wall and the islands.

I am going to explore this idea further.

This post was edited by teamj on Sun, Oct 27, 13 at 7:37


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I don't have time to sketch this out...but Sena's response (nice drawing) gave me an idea.

I'd put the range back on the 'window' wall, with a pantry on each side, where OP had the original shallow cabinets.

The main sink, dishwasher and trash would go between the doorways to the dining room, with glass uppers above.

These two walls will be your focal points, from the nook and family room, so I would want my 'nicest' views into these areas. The fridge, coffee station, breakfast etc. would go on the wall opposite the 'window' since personally, I don't like to stare at the fridge.

Then, I'd TURN the island 90 degrees, so that the prep sink is opposite the range wall and put stools on two sides. This would give you a view out both window walls in the nook, family room while you prep...and it would make a lot more sense. Two islands look like too many barriers, IMHO.

That's my last idea...I'm off to garden and wish OP best of luck on his kitchen :)


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Hi again teamj - I went back to your first thread. This was your option 5:

I'm wondering about revisiting this but keeping the fridge on the left wall, as you have preferred and one large island with the clean-up sink in the island. I think you should play around with that a bit. Also, a small point on this option 5 - if you get custom cabinetry, then the drawers and bases in the island can be deeper than 24" so some of the black "dead space" would be utilized.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

See, I like that a lot better, but I'd have pantries on each end of the range counter, with the fridge on the 'back' wall, by the nook. If you have room, you can even put a third sink by the coffee station...since you want to glam it up a bit. Maybe really cool faucets on each sink and make them a nice feature.

That big island will be so much more functional than two small ones...maybe white leather stools with chrome and the white leather back straps? Just my two cents :)


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Here is a perspective of one of the layouts. After seeing this I think the kitchen may look and possibly perform better by keeping that doorway in the corner closed.

And I do like a few of the concepts we have played around with here but I think I am going to seek some professional advice in the coming weeks to see which tradeoffs make the most sense, If I can find the right local professional...


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I just noticed the wall next to the fridge. Make sure that you can open the fridge door, remove shelves, drwers etc.. I don't know about subzero you're planning to get, but I had to pull my fridge to clean, with a filler of 4". Some professionals unfortunately miss that point.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

For anyone is following this thread, here are the latest revisions.

1. All base cabinets pulled 1" from the wall to increase the counter depth and partially flush in the large range and fridge.

2. Designated snack/beverage area with easy access to trash / sink / UTC fridge / microwave / coffee maker.

3. Large prep sink now close to range and plenty of counter space and storage close by.

4. Decent aisle widths.

For anyone who hasn't followed this thread, no I can not move the range!

This post was edited by teamj on Tue, Jan 28, 14 at 21:29


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I like it! :)


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Fridge wall


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

Small technical note - if you pull the wall cabinets out an inch, fillers in corners or blind corner cabinets can become challenging to figure out as both runs need to now be an inch shorter.

Also, remember to leave a little slack because your walls will not be square, level or straight - and I do mean little, like 1-1.5".

Personal opinion is that it would be just fine to break the line in the uppers and just use single doors over the refrigerator. Why? Visually, the cabinet depth is already changing and it's a big box anyway with the side panels. Also, because you won't be able to open those upper doors except with a ladder. With taller doors, you might be able to reach more stuff before pulling out the ladder. I have bakeware stored on the cabinet floor with trays on a fixed shelf above with tray dividers. I can reach both things without a ladder because I only need to grab a bottom corner to slide out trays.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

bmorepanic,

Thank you for the single door over the fridge idea, I think we might look into that.

Here is the range wall view.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

I like it, too.

Nearly in all my kitchens I had uppers above the sink and had no problem. I now have 13,5" deep ones, 20" above the counter.

As to the cab above the fridge, though I know noting about cabinet building, I guess the it can be a single door that look like 2 from the outside, if that makes sense.


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RE: Large Kitchen with Two Islands � Part 2

There cannot be an 18-wide trash bin under a 45-inch Kohler stages sink. It won't fit. I stated that before.

That sink needs to move down to make space for the bin or the bin could go next to the fridge. I'd move the sink down.

The same issue exists near the secondary sink. The trash bin needs to be near that sink not on the other island IMO.

There is still insufficient perimeter counter space. But if you're willing to sacrifice that with adjustments on the trash bins it's a more functional plan now.


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