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lmgch

what drives the costs of cabinets?

lmgch
9 years ago

I'm suffering from some sticker shock on the pricing of painted full overlay cabinetry for our kitchen & mud room. The single quote we've gotten so far is semi-custom, but what exactly makes the cabinets so darn expensive. I was expecting "high" because everyone has told us that cabinetry is expensive. But I wasn't expecting this high.

thanks

Comments (30)

  • _sophiewheeler
    9 years ago

    Door style, overlay, wood, paint, drawers, internal doodads, height, moldings, feet and other frou frou, and quality of hardware and construction. Lots of more "expensive" lines can be less than cheaper ones because they offer as standard what other lines charge for. Finished sides for instance. You generally have to pay for plain ply finished sides in a less costly line, but it's usually complimentary in a more expensive line.

    In other words, pretty much anything that goes into a GW or Houzz kitchen is gonna be extra. I'd expect an average 12x 14 kitchen in a mid grade line would be 15-20 K for a "GW kitchen".

  • lmgch
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks, Holly. I just have to wonder exactly what makes one cabinet x dollars and yet another 5 times as much. At some point, don't they all provide similar function.

    Our estimate is more - a lot more - than what you suggested and I don't really understand why. Will be having a meeting to discuss tomorrow, but wanted to try and get an understanding of what I might hear before going into that meeting.

  • sjhockeyfan325
    9 years ago

    It would be helpful if you tell us what cabinet line you're pricing and how big your kitchen is.

  • jakuvall
    9 years ago

    Within a given brand style does the most to drive price. Door style (0-20%), finish (0-20%), wood species (0-35%) glaze (10-20%), specialty finish (5-25%), moldings (5-15%), wood hoods ($1k-7k), pretty add Ons (i.e. Legs$50-600 ea), inset (5-15%), integrated end panels, flush sides, decorative panels.
    All vary by brand. Typically as brands gets better add Ons become cheaper.

    A completely functional kitchen, pull outs, accessories lots of drawers adds between 6 and 10 %. Usualy7-8.
    Proper detailing for better install, nicer look but not for food adds a few percent.

    Between brands- construction (pocket hole, Frameless, dowelled, mortise and tenon)

    Finish, gets better at upper end of semi, and goes from there.
    Wood grading, a few get better at upper semi but often need to go upper middle. Those that offer it charge between 5-15% for select.
    Finally quality control and service. Within the specs of their offerings there are many semi that do a good job with this. Moving up should, but doesn't t always, improve on that to excellent. At the top it should be impeccable. (and really expensive).

  • Jillius
    9 years ago

    A kitchen designer we were getting quotes from also said that the cost of shipping the prefab cabinets across country from the factory and of storing them locally and then of delivering them to to us was all rolled into the cost.

    One of the cost advantages of going with a local custom cabinet maker is that you are not paying for shipping, storage, or delivery. Just their time and materials. We needed cabinets of very standard sizes, so we were pricing out all kinds of pre-made stuff, and it ended up being the same cost or cheaper to have a local guy just make our cabinets custom.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    I remain amazed that KDs and contractors continue to present shocking proposals to potential customers. Apparently qualifying prospects is not in vogue anymore and has been replaced by time wasting. Too bad these people can't sell as well as they can estimate.

  • jakuvall
    9 years ago

    Tre, on the one hand I absolutely agree, but sure you know that sometimes getting a budget from a client is difficult to occasionally impossible. " I don't have one, it's not a problem, if I tall you then you'll spend it all, how am I supposed to know, we just want middle of the road, whatever is cheapest...
    When the idea is brought up on this forum there is often blow back.

    I don't work without one and gladly help them figure it out, which takes time too. I think some just use a scatter gun method, throw at the wall and see what sticks.

  • live_wire_oak
    9 years ago

    I won't work without an expressed budget either. If I get resistance to sharing it, then I tell them that they can park a Toyota Yaris in their drive, or a Cadillac Escalade, but they don't just go shopping for "a car" without already knowing something about what they need and want to spend. Then I tell that that they could buy a new car, or a kitchen, their choice, as it will end up costing them about the same. There's a few that run screaming in denial at that, but they weren't really serious prospects if that's the case. Those that think about it, I can work with, no matter what their budget might be. I'm all about maximizing the value, and if you tell me that your budget is 10K for cabinets, yes, I'll spend every penny of that 10K on things that you've told me that you want. If your budget is 50K for cabinets, it's usually, but not always, easier to get the wish list. Tradeoffs are always there for most, and it's just easier to work to a budget for a first draft than to a wish list that comes in 200% over what the budget might actually be. It's easier for the homeowner as well, although some might not believe that.

    I'll second Holly and Jakuvall, if you have expectations of doing a large "showstopper" kitchen, then there is no way around needing the budget to do that. Size of the kitchen is the first overall determinant in price. The average kitchen is around 55 square feet of counter space. If your kitchen is much larger than that, you'll need to increase your budget as well. So, if your kitchen is 110 square feet of counter space, you'd need double the 20K "average" budget for a kitchen, or 40K. For an average, NOT upscale kitchen. Upscale is significantly more. Like a lot of things in life, size DOES matter. As does quality. I see way too many people in 8000 square foot houses doing crappy site built hack cabinets, sprayed on site with bugs and dust in it. They only hear the word "custom" and never delve into the nuts and bolts of if they are dealing with an actual custom cabinet maker, or some guy who assembles parts and pieces from a catalog.

    Look at the overall layout and see where you can substitute a Craigslist armoire for a pantry, for instance. Or a thrift store china hutch. Or just eliminate cabinetry in secondary areas that aren't in the main work room.

  • lazygirl78
    9 years ago

    Just a note to the OP about sticker shock -- I recently went through the same thing, so I thought I'd share my experience. I used an independent designer and told her I wanted Kraftmaid. She took her design for the kitchen, laundry room/butler's pantry, and mudroom to Lowes, and their designer took three weeks to get back to us with a quote. It was (no installation included) $85,000. I almost fell on the floor. The Lowes designer said that that seemed high to him, too, so he'd see if he could get us a break, but that it would take another 3 days. I had already told my designer that I wanted her to check out an online source (which she was resistant to do), so I got on the phone and started that process immediately.

    I ended up going with the online place for my kitchen cabinets and then custom for my laundry room/butlers pantry and mudroom. The total cost going that route is $42,000. Still a LOT of money, but this is an admittedly huge kitchen (plus two other spaces) -- and I was expecting right around $40k. I thought I'd share in case this helps you consider alternatives!

    AEK

  • lmgch
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    thanks for all the feedback

    our working kitchen space is 13'2"x18'6"

    we had a number in mind of what we thought would hopefully be reasonable for kitchen cabinetry, keeping in mind that we also were doing a mudroom.

    the quote came back at $66K and that didn't even include the side-arm of a beverage area/desk area, which was separately quoted at $13K

    the mudroom came in at another $10K

    we were hoping to do the kitchen cabinetry for $45K

  • sjhockeyfan325
    9 years ago

    U-shaped? Cabinets on all 4 walls? L-shaped? Island?

    Just for comparison purposes, we chose mid-level cabinetry (Bellmont 1900 series, uppers are acrylic over plywood, bottoms are melamine over plywood). Small kitchen - one wall of 13' plus a 10' island with cabinetry on front and half of back. Lots of drawers. Cabinets came to slightly less than $15,000.

  • lmgch
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    here's the floor plan.

    based on the estimate and the fact that I was never really sure what i was going to do that section of 9" and 12" cabinets, we now plan to get rid of that section

  • User
    9 years ago

    Shipping from China is what is driving the price up.

  • lazygirl78
    9 years ago

    Can you get a second (or a third) quote? I'm sure glad I did.

  • lmgch
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    yes, i've already got a second in the works. have to figure out a third

  • bob_cville
    9 years ago

    I quickly drew up that layout (as close as possible) in the Ikea Home Planner, and selected a white shaker style door, and then asked the planner what the price would be .... It comes back with a price of $6597.42 including $899 for the oven that I accidentally included and then couldn't remove.

    This is not to say you should go with Ikea cabinets (although they are widely considered to be well built) this is merely to show you a likely floor on the price for the cabinets.

  • crl_
    9 years ago

    I was going to suggest doing what bob_cville did for you. The IKEA planner is nice because you get an accurate price without having to go through other people. And it does give you essentially a floor on cabinet pricing. It's important to remember though that the ikea cabinets come in limited sizes, don't have much in the way of extra details (like corbels, valances, etc) and do not come assembled. So you need to either be willing to do the assembly yourself (it is easy) or pay someone to do it, which is an additional cost.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    When I get pulled over for speeding and the cop asks me "Do you know why I pulled you over?" I always reply "Respectfully sir, I have no comment without counsel." This is an adversarial relationship and I will not self-incriminate as the cop has been trained to have me do. Good cops take another bite or two at the apple, but I give the same reply.

    When you call me for remodeling, it is not an adversarial relationship. You have a problem and I'm asking questions to see if I can help you solve it to our mutual satisfaction. If you don't answer my questions about your budget, you are wasting my time. I only have so much of it and I'm going to spend it on potentials that will appreciate a mutually beneficial relationship.

    Like the cop, I too will take several bites at the qualifying apple. When I get nowhere, I'm relieved and grateful that I haven't wasted any more time than I have. Next.

  • andersons21
    9 years ago

    I did some research on the cost of cabinets back in 2007 when ours were damaged in a flood. This article from Fine Homebuilding was helpful:
    http://www.finehomebuilding.com/pdf/021191040.pdf
    And I read all of Fine Homebuilding's other articles on cabinetry

    Fine Homebuilding pointed me to one of the sites where you can order cabinet boxes, doors, and drawers. I think it was called Scherr's. By studying the price list, and pricing out the different types of materials, door styles, etc., on that site, I got a good feel for what was driving the cost, especially for doors.

    I then also got rough estimates for a low and a high: Ikea and Crown Point. I think it was something like $6-7,000 for Ikea (Tidaholm oak, solid oak shaker-style they had at the time), $23,000 for Crown Point.

    Recently I've priced a 30" vanity cabinet and doors for a half bath. I found that the doors cost TWICE as much finished as unfinished.

    As far as my budget, I didn't/don't know what it should be. I could probably spend as much money as I want to remodel my small kitchen, but I am frugal and always try to get the best value for my money.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Fine Homebuilding article on cabinet construction and costs

  • patricianat
    9 years ago

    I hardly think my local cabinet shop is in China. My downsize kitchen several years ago of wood, from local cabinet maker, not anything special nor from China, $75,000.

  • lmgch
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    thanks for the replies thus far. particular thanks to the PP who offered up some ideas re: percentages applied to various styling aspects.

    Trebruchet, I read your last reply as I was cooling down from my run, and I had to stop the workout to try and re-read and fully understand. I believe you are suggesting that I may be the antagonistic homeowner who is trying to "get one over" on my KD and/or cabinet maker. To clarify, my KD is fully aware of our budget. And she was also surprised by the expense of the quote, as it came to both of us in an email last night. She's worked with this company before and was still not expecting the dollar amounts listed.

    As for the cabinet company, they never asked me for a budget. I sent them a floor plan in advance of an in-person meeting. They then sent me a proposed budget in advance of our meeting.

    Someone up-thread mentioned Crown Point - are they generally well-regarded on here? I will do a GW search in a few moments.

    How about Knight Kitchen - any opinions on them?

    Many thanks again.

  • lmgch
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    double post

    This post was edited by lmgch on Wed, Oct 1, 14 at 21:17

  • lmgch
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    oh, and thank you to bob_cville as well - that was so nice of you to plug the layout into Ikea for me!

    I don't think we will go the Ikea route, but I really appreciate the effort on my behalf!

  • lindanewc
    9 years ago

    I had a KD come to my house and after the pleasantries, I told her up front that I had a budget of $15k for cabinets & granite. We already had demo and install taken care of. Her response was "We have budgets for everyone so I'm sure we can work with that". Two hours later, she showed me a bid of $25,000. This company was referred to me by two different people that did not know each other. I politely escorted her out. It was such a waste of time because I made it LOUD AND CLEAR that we were paying cash and this was the money we had. I'm in sales too, and I was annoyed to say the least that she wasted my Saturday morning. This was a very experienced KD who should have known whether my budget was realistic. Had she quoted me $17k or $18k, I might have been able to work with that. Frankly, there is no reason to hide your budget. Get several quotes and you'll know what you're realistically going to pay and depending on the bells/whistles you want you can make an educated decision.

  • PRO
    Joseph Corlett, LLC
    9 years ago

    lmgch:

    I meant no such implication and apologize if that's the way my comments appear.

    I have difficulty understanding how folks can be shocked at a remodeling estimate. This is the salesperson's fault and is as glaring to me as the crappy countertop installation a few threads over. I don't like it when anyone doesn't do their job.

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    I had the same experience as LindaS (KD ignores the stated budget), except that the KD that I went to managed to kick the price up still further by having three separate 240V lines coming into my 10 x 16 kitchen. The highest quote that I received was from Lowes, my recollection was that Home Depot was about $300 behind. Given that my kitchen is small to begin with and that a useful configuration does not allow that many cabinets both were much more expensive than a full true custom job. The thing about a custom job is that you have to know exactly what you want and where you want it or you shouldn't start at all. I have not liked the cabinet arrangements proposed to me thus far as their sole purpose seems to be to add as many cabinets as possible, after all they make their business selling cabinets, not usable space.
    Interestingly, the experience led me to do further research and to this website which I am quite happy about. I particularly appreciated the links to the fine home building magazine in this thread.
    (I thought that Trebeuchet's Point was well-made and did not think it was in anyway intended personally.)
    Thank you all.

  • bob_cville
    9 years ago

    I didn't go with Ikea either, although I did the same exercise of drawing my layout in their planner to get a data point for a minimum cost for the cabinets. As someone above stated above they only offer a smallish number of standardized sizes, and to get things to fit in my space I needed custom sizes.

    I ended up going with a company named Scherr's that does fully custom Ready-To-Assemble cabinets, and the price was just over 2x the Ikea planner price.

    When I sent the initial design images (shown below) that I made to Scherr's for them to give a quote, they included crown molding in their design and in their price, because the images I sent had crown molding. However I didn't actually want crown molding, they were only shown there because of the drawing program I used. Because the quote they gave was sufficiently detailed, I could see this and the price for the crown molding was something like $2000, which is a pretty significant fraction of the price. Deleting it dropped the price from ~$19500 to $17680.

  • jakuvall
    9 years ago

    Grabbed one I did that was priced at two ends of the spectrum- for reference-2 legs are 13f-8, third is 15 ft-8 not maybe enough to help you sort it out.

    This one has stacked cabinet$$ which I have a hunch might be the case??(otherwise can't imagine getting to that price reduce if using 36 or 39 uppers)
    this was done in white- inset- cherry would be the same except as noted. Price reflect typical range of markups in these parts.

    Semi custom 39k-42k- overlay saves about 7% on this line-add in a 48 wood hood for about 2500 plus the liner
    expenses here of note- lots of combined cabinets, mullion doors cost 120 ea and finish interior 100 per cabinet- . No charge for glaze but add for specialty finish.

    Hi end line (very) 50k-53k- in this cherry would cost more since there was no charge for painted interiors- combined cabs cost a little less, a hood would be about the same- but in this line there is no saving for overlay unless it is frameless (about 5% less)

    On both all exposed ends were integrated panels- any base cabinet that was not drawers has some sort of functional accessories, all drawers have dividers--lets say you could play with it and not add a dime for function OTOH if I had to make budget, I could find a way to shave maybe 5% OR changing style points I noted earlier it could go up by 20-30%.

  • Ivan I
    9 years ago

    Imgch, you ask a great question:

    "what exactly makes cabinets so darn expensive"

    I'm not sure anyone answered that question in the most general sense.

    It's something I've wondered too... because cabinet prices are so much higher than my perceptions / expectations of what something like cabinets "should" cost.

    With the economic forces of price and competition being what they are in modern capitalism, no one company will be earning extreme profits unless a monopoly is present.
    Ex: in the eyewear industry where all eyeglass companies are owned by a single company - Luxxotica - the only reason why we're paying hundreds vs http://www.cbsnews.com/news/luxottica-eyewear-why-are-glasses-expensive/
    So I'm now buying all family eyewear from Zenni Optical - 12 pairs now all with perfect acuity and better workmanship than some of my $400 pairs http://www.zennioptical.com/)

    Since there's no Luxxotica of the cabinet world, let's say no one is earning an extreme profit, i.e., where you can sell a cabinet for $300 and COGS (cost of goods sold) is actually just $15.

    If that's the case, what are the primary cost drivers of kitchen cabinets?

    My total guess is that the cost of labor component of the cost of production is many times higher than what I perceive it would be.