Becky said: plllog, what I can't figure out is why those who go the total kitsch route usually seem to be lacking in a sense of humor, or at least design sense of humor, which is the opposite of what I would expect, that they would have more than an average supply.

That's actually how it gets to be that bad. They don't get the joke. There are a lot of things that are done full out in my kitchen, a ton of color and pattern, but it all hangs together in a serious way that can be analyzed using design formulae in a way that makes sense. The little touches of Art Nouveau and kitsch are just touches, and they blend into the overall visual noise.

When the whole room is kitsch, usually the owner/implementer doesn't get that it's kitsch. I found a great little pressed ceramic switchplate with molded birds to go with my pond theme counter/backsplash. The tile is interpretive, the switchplate is literal and kitsch, but it's just molded, not painted, and it's not particularly noticeable. When you do notice it, it's cute. If the tile had been done with a literal shore, and a literal sky, and literal birds on the switchplate, it would have been overwhelming, and wouldn't have had the whimsy that the birds switchplate and the frog tiles give it. That's why I say to use a little kitsch in the kitchen. ;)

I was thinking a Chinoiserie kitchen would have pagoda roof shaped cabinet tops, and lots of red lacquer, along the lines of this bed:

That would be expensive!! If it's just wallpaper, like in the light blue kitchen, have at it! That's cute. :)

Post-meeting, post-lunch food coma... Whew! Pal's green kitchen woke me up! Thanks, I needed that.

Anyway, this one is for Marcolo, for wanting something different: a kitchen in a cave. I kind of love it -- looks cozy instead of what I would think of as "cave like."

{{gwi:1955459}}

Now thinking caves and kitchens, trendy and dated... I re-captioned this cartoon for you:

{{gwi:1955460}}

To me, that bedroom looks more Chinese than chinoiserie.

Here's a pagoda kitchen element that's a little more subtle (thought I could do without the elephants on the island).

Anything can be overdone, even subway tile.

I don't think fabricating the kitchen in one of these styles is the problem.

But, as we've talked about before, the kitchen that goes along with the gothic-revival house, the egyptian-revival house, the ____ house that was built before WWII was a utilitarian kitchen so the stylistic antecedent doesn't exist. The only houses that had kitchens that matched the house before the war were utilitarian/farmhouse houses with utilitarian/farmhouse kitchens and Craftsman houses, which were conceived as from follows function. So, even if you built a dead-on Gothic Cottage a la William Strickland, the kitchen would be made up. And that's ok but it could end up a bit too "fancy" and/or kitsch.

But I don't think the kitsch factor that people are reading in some of these kitchens comes from the kitchen itself. "Kitsch" by definition is:

" a form of art that is considered an inferior, tasteless copy of an extant style of art or a worthless imitation of art of recognized value."

The craftsmanship in the Plain and Fancy kitchen is too good and too refined to be kitsch. What could possibly make it read as kitsch is it's sense of ... Displacement. Put that chinoiserie-inspired kitchen in a rather ordinary house, with a contemporary floorplan, with ordinary trim, and typical 6-panel doors, and Pottery Barnish furniture, which pretty much describes the American House of moderate taste, and it could just look silly--like I said--the beaded dress at your son's soccer game. There is nothing matter with the dress, just the occasion.

So, I think what I don't like that I am seeing is that kitchens have become overdressed for the house, and particularly with stronger styles like those we are discussion now, this disconnect becomes even stronger.

,i>So, I think what I don't like that I am seeing is that kitchens have become overdressed for the house, and particularly with stronger styles like those we are discussion now, this disconnect becomes even stronger.

Well put, palimpsest.

For staging purposes, I think "old lady" is a bad choice. I understand they aren't appealing to first time buyers, but they aren't selling to empty nesters either.

Well, obviously it works, since they get results. I think the difference is the particular clientele they're appealing to. If you adore MCM/skyscraper/modern/brutalist you don't want to spend a fortune for a Charleston single, normally. Their market is people whose idea of a nice tchotchke runs more to Meissen than something Mondrian-inspired. They're selling the escape to the past (that never really was).

You may notice the overdressing more, but I really don't think it's any worse than miles of marble and nickel finishes in a house where the owners justify leaving piles of plastic toys in the dining room where a table should be.

My complaint is simply that somewhere, somebody is working on what's "next," and it's very likely to be a tedious rehash of something we've already seen in kitchens before. Like avocado, or brick backsplashes. Or maybe '60s wagon wheel chandeliers. Whatever. And the KDs and magazines and realtors will breathlessly exclaim, "It's what everyone is doing now!!"

Yawn.

Yet, if it's agreed we can no longer think of anything actually new, why can't we rehash a wider variety of design ideas? It's especially weird since many of these ideas are actually au courante right now, in other contexts. Hello, a whole blog about Chinoiserie? And Moroccan has been "in" for a while. There is absolutely nothing more "out there" about these styles than the One True Kitchen, except the OTK happens to be trendy right now, so many people confuse "currently popular" with "permanently mainstream."

As far as updating kitchens in period houses, here's my take. I knew from the beginning that I didn't want to revert my kitchen to the original 1909 style from the current 80's remodel. In fact, we want to turn the laundry room that replaced the original pantry into an open breakfast area to open up the kitchen to the back yard.

So the thought game is this. When the kitchen was originally built, it was a utilitarian room hidden from view. However, if the original designers had conceived it as the public room it is today, how would they have designed it? Of course you go even further incorporating the modern conveniences that didn't exist then, but you get a clue in period houses that were so fancy they even made the kitchens somewhat fancy, like the Gamble house (built the year before mine). Even there they used Maple in the kitchen instead of the mahogany and teak used in the rest of the house.

However, it's funny. Even though white subway tile is undoubtably fitting in my kitchen, it's so popular right now I don't want to use it. I'd rather go with a more decorative look in the backsplash, looking at some of the tile work from other rooms in craftsman houses. The trick is certainly not overdoing it.

The Charleston stagers are selling "old money". Their furniture is exactly what you'd expect to find in a stately home that has been passed down from generation to generation.

Marcolo,

I love those Chinoiserie kitchens you showed.

Especially the last one, with the elephants. I think that is brilliant. Especially because, for folks who complain about taking chances in the most expensive room in the house, it would very easy to de-China that kitchen. The pediment (or whatever) over the window casing and the accessories are all you have to change!

I am looking again, and that is true of all of the kitchens. The one with red accents, just change the pagoda lantern, nix the dining chairs and use a new color drum shade.

These are all really great designs, imho, and I don't usually warm to that style.

I am all for non-boring kitchens, but the sticking point for me is that there is the trend to make the kitchen more "formal" than the rest of the house (yes --miles of marble and nickel finishes and white subway tile) and then Crate and Barrel, at best, takes over outside the kitchen. Nothing against C&B, Pottery Barn etc. but that decor, particularly planted in a house of no particular detail MIXED with a highly detailed and fancy dancy kitchen--just doesn't play well for me.

If you are going to do a Dorothy Draper kitchen, save some money out of the budget, so at least the Living Room and Dining Room can step up to the plate.
So, while I can see this:
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And something like this:
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I Can't see this:
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Or this:

{{gwi:1955468}}

There is nothing really wrong with the last two living rooms; I think they are American vernacular in moderate taste, kinda Crate & Barrel / Pottery Barn casual. But they are really diminished by a high style kitchen.

Palimpsest- I agree with you. Even Marcolo's 'pregnant scullery maid' kitchens, often don't go with the rest of the house. Don't those kitchens look more at home with huge, Edwardian style formal dining rooms, parlors and conservatories?

Seems there are many definitions of "kitsch". (I checked a dictionary). I wasn't using Palimpsest's, which probably led to some misunderstanding. The origin of the word mean "smear", as in slather it on or muddle the features. The themes that seem to be represented in all of the definitions are vulgar popularity (in the most pejorative sense), sentimentality, tawdry (i.e., glitzy without quality) or general poor quality and showiness, pretentious, as well as the cheap copy version.

In my birds switchplate example, and in general the kind I was advocating in small quantity, I was thinking more of the vulgar and overdone. :) And slightly goofy. Or the ubiquitous farm animals (chickens, pigs).

And I agree that the Plain and Fancy kitchen isn't kitsch, but could look dumb in a tract house. And I agree that the haute marble look also looks displaced in a casual household, and love Palimpsest's examples. ;) And I agree about the islands from outer space. :) Including in the last example P. posted.

Marcolo, we cross posted earlier. That bed is actually a prime example of Chinoiserie--it is not at all what a real Chinese bed looks like--so I'm glad you posted your examples of simpler ways of introducing a Chinoiserie touch without going all out George IV. But that pagoda valance? With egg and dart? Really?

There is absolutely nothing more "out there" about these styles than the One True Kitchen, except the OTK happens to be trendy right now, so many people confuse "currently popular" with "permanently mainstream." Hm... Marcolo, I'm not sure I agree with the first part. The more furbelows a style has, the more intricate the details, the more character it has, starting from a neutral point, the more it is "out there". If your culture has been all about the onion domes for a thousand years, then they're normal. American culture, for the short time it has existed, has been more about the plain and made by everyman. Therefore, the five piece door is pretty darned neutral, and that's one of the central tenets of the OTK.

Greg, I think you've identified a very good way to go about making your needs fit into your century old house, and work with the design. Your "how would they have done it?" question is excellent, as is looking at the Gamble kitchen. Often, a Mission kitchen is put into an A&C house and takes its cues from Mission revival furniture. These tend to look kitsch (actually, Palimpsest's definition) to me, even when they're well done, because I don't feel that the furniture style extended to the cabinetry translates all that well. The Gamble House picture shows simple and well made, as a kitchen should be. It sounds like a great project!

Re the formal/casual thing, I've dealt with that in my own house. It's that most California of dress codes: Dressy casual, and a PITA.

I think most of these kitchens would look dumb in a tract house.

A couple years ago when we were talking about this, and I was beating my "appropriateness" drum, one of the replies I got was: "so your telling me that since I live in a boring suburban house that I should spend all this money on a new kitchen and it should be boring?"

And "since my house has no character, if I wanted a 'twee Victorian' kitchen, I would damn well have it."

I am paraphrasing except for 'twee Victorian'-- I remember that.

The answer is No and Sure, why not? BUT --take some of that money you were planning on spending on your non-boring kitchen, and amp up the rest of your boring house so the kitchen doesn't look like it belongs somewhere else; and make the rest of the inside of your house a twee Victorian too, don't time travel between the kitchen and living room.

I think design isn't important to most people (at least looking at what they do about it). It's not #1 with me either, or I would have done my living room. :) When I have the masses to dinner I have folding chairs and extra tables protruding into the living room, the LR furniture pushed toward the windows, and the dining room chairs proving the extra LR seating. And the old, nasty bookcases on one wall.

It's not that I can't afford to redo it, or don't know it's just a jumble of old furniture plonked down--but much better looking than Palimpsest's two beige rooms!--but since it always gets jumbled up anyway, I don't seem to ever bother. The room I want to redo is the library, but I'm not eager to pack it up for painting, so don't get around to that either. It's a pastel orange (I think called "hot moon") which looked great until the shelving turned up in dark red cherry. Now people tell me how "daring" it is. :) What that really means is that it doesn't clash enough to have forced a repainting before the shelves went in (it was less than a year between paint and shelving), but it clashes enough to be jarring. Maybe like good jazz. Maybe annoying like good jazz. :) When it comes down to it I'll probably just change out the huge desk for a small escritoire and a large chaise longue, so I can add the amazing rug that someone made for me (gift), which clashes with everything, but is pretty wonderful in itself.

So...if I can't be bothered to redo these two rooms that need it, I find it hard to blame folks for choosing one room (often the kitchen), to "do up right" and kind of ignore the boring elsewhere. I mean, I can blame them on the design continuity front, but not on a real people with too much on their minds to bother with the house front.

One of the most difficult parts of designing a kitchen, for me, is that you're purchasing almost everything at one go. If you are the type of person who has a "collected" style, then it is daunting to buy cabinets, flooring, appliances, hardware, etc, all at once. I'm not the type to buy a room full of furniture all at once. I know I struggled with the fact that in the rest of my house, the furnishings were bought little by little over the course of many years, but everything the kitchen was purchased in 2011 (except for the fridge which I bought in 2009). My solution was to make the kitchen look like it was part of the house's structure, rather than part of its furnishings.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that some kitchens seem like a part of the house, whereas others make such a strong statement that the cabinets, etc, start to feel more like furniture. (That probably makes no sense at all.)

An over-the-top Chinoiserie kitchen probably won't look like it is part of the house's structure. That's OK as long as the rest of the house's furnishings live up to the kitchen.

What sort of furnishings and finishes should be in the rest of the house if the kitchen is an example of the OTK?

Pal - Perhaps I have misunderstood your remarks (at 21:45) but I did not realize that white subway tile was considered formal, I do consider marble more formal.
Re:the green kitchen and corresponding family room - I think that the green in the kitchen has been carried through very effectively into the family room and provides great flow.;)

We've just done a whole house reno and the hardest part of the whole process, including right from the initial planning stages, has been to try to have all the rooms match (I'm not sure this is the right word) in terms of formality/casual decorative style without ending with a mish mash.
We don't like clutter and it's been hard to make the rooms, including the kitchen, interesting without resorting to clutter. We have a 1972 post and beam house and are trying to stay true to it's clean unadorned lines (which we love) but it's a long slow process and we're not rushing it. But it's a process of adding or taking away or moving one thing at a time.

My house was built in 1910 and is a mish-mash of architectural styles. Its boxy shape and hip roof evoke foursquares, the dentil molding, the acanthus detailing, the ionic columns, and the balconet evoke something, but I'm not sure what (Victorian? Italian Renaissance Revival?), the coffered ceilings, board and batten paneling with plate rails, and v-groove wainscotting would fit well in a Craftsman, and the frou-frou mass market fireplace mantles are straight out of the late Victorian period.

So what is my classic?

Eclectic.

What will fit best is something that includes bits of all the influences. Lucky you, you get to chose the bits you like best. :)

Or you can go with simple. The little black sheath dress of a kitchen. Slab doors, perhaps with a (quarter) rounded edge. Simple counters--not fancy figured stone. Maybe Blizzard Caesarstone to take the place of white tile (or tile, if you, like me, actually like tile). Simple faucets, moldings, etc, that have straight lines rather than frou frou. In other words, make it the "servants' kitchen" instead of coffers, dentil crown, board and batten doors, and acanthus leaf spice pullouts -- I think they're still available as a stock item. :)

My comment about the subway tile was an extension of what Marcolo says about subway tile--overuse, not necessarily the most appropriate in every house, and in combination with nickel and marble, a "formalized", if not exactly formal materials palette for a typical tract house.

Re: the green carried out from the lacquered kitchen to the beige family room via pillows, you winked, so I am not sure you were completely serious. I actually chose the two living room pictures at random and subconsciously must have been TRYing to pull some color out--but its certainly not enough.

My combo:
{{gwi:1580256}}{{gwi:1955466}}

vs: the REAL combo, by Miles Redd:
{{gwi:1580256}}

My combo:
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The REAL combo, by Diamond Baratta:

The Miles Redd combination isn't particularly even literal, because I don't see the apple green in the living space of that apartment, its just the saturation of the two rooms that allow them to stand up to each other.

The Diamond Baratta project has a very tight palette, it's what they are known for. But if they want it to "match", it matches exactly and they will go through multiple custom samples until they nail it.

I am a fan of these firms for their commitment, if not necessarily the finished result. Particularly D-B whose palettes are too intensely limited and matched for my tastes.

But I wanted to show two current designers, with two approaches to making strong statements (Redd's "no palette" and D-B's super tight palette) vs the relatively weak and bland palette of the typical American house (beige or brown with "pops of color" that can be "easily changed out" when people get "tired" of it or think that color is "d----".

The disconnect widens.

I am pretty sure that white and grey-blue kitchen with the red island is English. Those moorish touches may relate to some architectural element on the outside of the building or in the neighborhood.

Isn't anyone going to say how much they are drooling over the blanket chest in the pagoda bedroom as a style for the kitchen? I love it, love it, love it.

But, here is how it gets mainstreamed and contorted to be the next trend.

OMG, can't you picture the tooled silver estechuons on the pulls on the lacquered cabinet doors? Don't you see the island with the silver wrapped metal edges?

But wait, there's more.

Don't you want to see it with a Sundance/Garnet Hill/Ralph Lauren Western Aspen style room? Flat wool rugs, primitive hefty-hewn upholstered pieces, Lacquered brass candlesticks, carved wood stationary box, fine china, and maybe some lace curtains.

Call it the '49er style.

Like the Eastern ladies who left the refinement and comfort of the civilized world to explore the American West. They would bring what treasures from their wedding gifts and family pieces that could travel. Once out West, this had to work with what could be found locally. So the fine pieces all easily blend with the driftwood finish of the 650 page Voldemort of Hardware Decor. There you have it.

Spenders can have the authentic items hand made by local craftsmen.
Clevers can repurpose some easily had early Am. 1950-60 pieces.
Must-Havers can buy the copy in MDF at the local import decor chain.

Any thoughts?

What living rooms go with the One True Kitchen? To my mind, these: desaturated palette with the obligatory "pops" of color, a touch of "bling" (polished nickel, the obligatory "crystal" or mirrored finish), some ebonized or darker wood. Largely Edwardian in influence:

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{{gwi:1955474}}

Marcolo, I have more thoughts re. Disneylandification, authenticity, kitsch and kitchens, but must wait for some free time --

Since one of the big influences in the White Kitchen Movement is the set design for "Something's Gotta Give" one need only look at the set design for the rest of the house:

The last four pictures have something that many houses do not, though: a clear architectural viewpoint.

Ha ha! Circuspeanut's first picture looks like a combination of my dining room and living room. My fireplace is more Victorian, but the columns from the fireplace in the pic are the same as the ones flanking the opening from my foyer to my living room. I have the cove ceiling and picture rail in my living room. My dining room colors are similar to the pic, although my paneling goes up about 5 ft on the wall, so more white, less brown.

So the "One true kitchen" is appropriate? Honestly, I set my sights on white Shaker cabinets in 2004, based on the existing cabinetry (which was painted yellow shaker), before I ever found GardenWeb, and before it became the OTK. Something's Gotta Give was only 2003, and I never saw it.

Gosh my house sounds fancy, but it is a 1200 square foot flat that was fortunate enough not to be extensively remodeled.

Palimpsest: not serious about the first Miles Redd combo. The real combo is better balanced with the colours but there is very very little green in the LR. There is a lamp base and a couple of other little things, but if there were accents of green I don;t think it would work as well.

The last four pictures, especially the ones posted by circus peanut bring up my "soapbox" point yet again - where is the colour? And flowers do not count. Flowers are a "pretty" - they are not an accessory, an accent or a decorative tool. Flowers are a temporary solution to a big problem and are often used as a decoration cop-out.

That living room by diamond Baratta - that is a comittment
to colour.

How clever of Diamond Baratta to throw in an ocean as an accent piece. When the Atlantic turns a tad too teal, do they just cart in the Caribbean?

They key to the Miles Redd living room palette? If the Dutch Masters use a color combination, so can you! There. Isn't that liberating?

As a lover of green cabinets (in the literal sense), I am continually knocked out by that FPE Bamboo Leaf lacquer kitchen. I believe that lacquered window shade is a true master stroke. (Anybody know what kind of shades stand up to lacquer? I can see a number of applications for this treatment of less than harmonious windows.)

Does anyone object to the red knobs on the Wolf range, or can we let that slide?

I hadn't realized that the F&B Hague Blue living room was in the same apartment. I don't think it needs any bamboo green accents as long as the saturation degrees match, especially so since the kitchen appears to be visually separated from the living room.

He uses Hague Blue again here, in what I consider a kitchen, although in his circles it's a butler's pantry:

(repro a bit faded)

If there are any trends in kitchens right now, I hope it is toward more saturated color.

Which reminds me, Gregincal, I do hope you're having a look at Pewabic, Motawi, Batchelder, et al. Mission Tile West showroom near you? Designs in Tile online? I'd probably be swimming in peacocks, gingkos, lillies, berries, fish scales and oh, you know.

I'll stop. Surrounded by Central Texas wildfires and the asthma medicine is decidedly taking a toll.

--kd, who is itching to know who does MR's lacquer.

I am not 100% sure they are the same apartment but the way they were linked in the portfolio I believe they are.

My painters lacquer and if the walls are drywall they prefer to do up to ten coats of spackle and sanding to get the results in that blue apartment. They told me the last time they did it the client had them stop at seven because it was getting too expensive. Even designers of the MR caliber don't always have the budget to get to that mirror stage...I have seen it looking a bit uneven in the highest end layouts on occasion.

As for color, there is a Burberry Throw with a red stripe in one photo and tiny green crystals on the chandelier in the other :)

I wonder if the out-of-palette needlepoint pillows and the book with the red coral on it are from the photoshoot rather than Diamond and Baratta, directly...that bit of extra color seems a bit out of character (although its on their website).

I'd rather see a purple kitchen, than all bright green or blue. This looks a bit different to me!

Here is a link that might be useful: Purple kitchen

I have to say, I appreciate the cohesive looks in Palimpsest's examples, but in my circles they're what is known as "overdesigned". This fits so much better in the Northeast, where the light is thinner and the landscape is more saturated while the cities are pretty grey by comparison (my impression). It occurs to me that a lot of the desaturated and beige styles that are being reviled by Philadelphia and Boston may owe their inspirations to the Southwest, where the light is yellower, the landscape is beige and the cities are saturated by comparison. If you look at cultures all over the world, left to themselves (i.e., without designers), they tend to use colors for adornment (both dwellings and clothes) that come from the landscapes around them. There are a few notable exceptions where the cultural zeitgeist has taken over and imposed a design folk culture that supersedes that, and you get rebellious styles, like the '60's plastic colors, but outside of fads, even modern societies decorate and dress in harmony with their surroundings.

In the West, unlike the weird faux Santa Fe style that spread through the low end design accessories in the '90's, we naturally use a lot of desert colors and mineral colors, rather than anything heavily saturated.

I appreciate the Miles Redd and Diamond Barrata designs, but they make my eyes hurt! I could get literally nauseus if I had to sit in one of those living rooms. It's too much, like being buffeted by the furnishings. The DB is easier to take because there are resting places for the eyes on the white walls, and the kitchen is a lot less intense than the sitting room, but I couldn't take a whole house of that.

I think my problem with those places, other than just the intensity of the color, which I might get over if I lived in their environs, is that very few people are vibrant enough to compete. If they're designed for intimidating one's guests, then, score!, but these designs are so unitary and perfect and intense in and of themselves that they leave no room for human beings. Perhaps they're for single people who don't actually see other people in their rooms? I have the same problem with certain kinds of architecture, as well, such as the work of Mies van der Rohe, whose public buildings have more in common with ancient temples and pyramids which were designed to overwhelm and obviate humanity, rather than serve people and provide them with a nice environment.

So...begs the question: What is the point of your designed interior? Is it a stage upon which you perform your life? A painting to be featured in? A backdrop? An extension of self? A place to impress people? A place to comfort people?

Took the words out of my mouth plllog - I detest interiors that shout "look at me!" Not at the ocean, not at the skyline, not at the food, not at your host, LOOK AT MEEEEEE. If one's outdoor scenery is lacking, then interior color and scenery makes more sense. But it is not a "one size fits all" proposition.

The busy living room on the ocean makes me shudder. Why bother with windows at all? My eye, at least, cannot begin to appreciate the view with all that bidding for attention going on in the upholstery.

I actually find the Diamond Baratta portfolio suffocating. Usually the color combinations are too close to those known to elicit migraines for my taste. The palette is so tight and so powerful I don't even know how you would dress in such a room.

Miles Redd at least, is loose enough with his palettes that you might not clash with them if you sat down in them. Some of them are moody enough that the darkness tempers the saturation. I think that green kitchen is brilliantly executed, but it seems like a kitchen for storing takeout. I don't know that unprepared food would look very appetizing in there, but a white box would fit right in... A lot of his work is an extension of Bunny Williams', for whom he used to work.

He is pure NYC, and so are Diamond Baratta. I don't think there would be a client for them in Philadelphia (probably not Boston either) unless the client were a transplanted New Yorker.

I actually think the design scene in Philadelphia is pretty abysmal currently. However, its hard to tell. It seems like most New Yorkers would embrace having their apartment featured in a magazine, while most Philadelphians of taste would tend to eschew it. No major design magazine even has a contact here. The stuff I see in the local magazines either leaves me cold or leaves me scratching my head. I think there Might be something good going on somewhere but no one but people's close friends ever get to see it.

Pal, have you considered writing a book on interior design? Your knowledge seems so wide-ranging and you have such an interesting writing voice.

If you're not going to be writing a book in the near future, could you suggest one (a start) for those of us who find these threads fascinating and want to learn more?

Thanks!

Hmm. I disagree. I think that as small space kitchens go, that MR version would be a good one for cooking. I'd remove the cookbooks and plant from the window area (I suspect they're there for staging purposes, as is the bowl of, yes, green limes) and have a relatively large and utilitarian work surface on that stainless counter. Good range. Check. Good fridge. Check. Good faucet. Check. Good counter top material. Check. Probably well-considered lighting as well.
As to the DB living room, well, exactly. That's why I referred to the ocean as an accessory. In addition, it's not just the palette and its tightness; it's also an issue of the assertiveness of the pattern, the amount of the pattern, and the way the color blocks are done. I think the DB room screams look at me way more than does the MR living room. However, there are some MR rooms with palettes that do puzzle me, to wit:

and several in a Houston house, like

(and, if memory serves me, the walls are actually more of an acid yellow). Oy. But maybe color isn't the only issue here.
I do love color, just not all versions of it. Sometimes it gets brutal.

Yeah, I figured the Miles Redd had to be NYC because that's the only place I've seen that kind of intense, dark, saturated color work and be commonly employed (not that I've seen every place, but you don't see that kind of thing commonly in Northern Europe, for instance). With the general greyness of the City, and the color intensity to be found in the surrounding landscapes, it makes sense. Also, considering the insular effect of living in a large shared dwelling with limited fenestration (usually, only one direction), it makes sense to have such an inward looking design. I've seen it more in a Traditional Six than in brownstones or greystones. The former tend to have more natural designs (woods, etc.), and the latter (the few I've seen) tend to be more European classic.

Interestingly, I visited some people who were the first tenants in a new building. There were more and bigger windows than your average pre-War. The rooms were well designed, but had more of a Western vibe. Lots of mid-brown wood, oatmeal upholstery, Navajo White walls (the better for displaying the art collection which all had modern, simple, narrow frames). Very sophisticated casual, and easy. And a bit too cold looking for NY. It was a setting that was certainly welcoming to people, but the art wasn't colorful enough to add vibrancy. It would have been perfect somewhere hot with wide vistas of scrub. Hollywood Hills, Sedona, Santa Fe.

What I meant when I called out Philadelphia and Boston is that Palimpsest and Marcolo live places where beige doesn't play well. It doesn't fit the landscape, and in the cities, which also have that Northern light, isn't vibrant enough. In the Southwest desert regions, the sun is yellower so subtle colors aren't so washed out. There is a complexity, richness and beauty in the earth tones, and, yes, beige, that is cool and calming, and easy to live with, that could be dreary in a place where there's less light and more snow. Whereas, something that might look fantastic in the NE, might be garish here.

Palimpsest, you put your finger on what was bothering me about that green lacquer: I've seen a lot of boldly colored lacquer kitchens that didn't trouble me the same way. You said it: The food would clash! Same, and more so, with the teal BP. I'm hoping that won't happen with the aubergine one. There's a lot less of it there--it's open on three sides to the rest of the space which is white and honey, and the counters will probably be stainless which should be a good resting place. If not stainless, they'll be a white Caesarstone, but I think that would be too much contrast, and the client likes the idea of the fixtures melting into the counters. I think it will work... And, at least, aubergine is a food color. :)

Julie, I like your Chinese chest inspiration! It sounds doable, and has enough specific little touches that it could become the because-that's-what's-in-the-stores, next thing that Marcolo is pining for. :)

I like the green lacquer color (my parents have a l-o-o-n-g parsons table this color), and I like the kitchen. I just think the green color could overpower the food. I like his blue kitchens better. I like everything about it but I wouldn't like cooking in that color.

The pink and red room...I've seen it, I don't want it in my Photobucket. It's one of my least favorite color combinations and if I was in the prodromal period of a migraine it would put me over the edge.

If someone lit a match to those circus tents in the living room above, the rest of the room wouldn't be too bad. I think maybe he is in a particularly self-congratulatory phase? It's also in Texas, which explains a lot. Sorry Texans, but you have to know what I am talking about...its not everybody in TX.

(I was taught a course by an artist famous in her genre. Over the sofa in her old house she had a painting of a person undergoing a surgical procedure without anesthesia. Maggots were pouring out. People in the operating room were vomiting. It was cartoonish, not realistic, but still gross. I asked her the background and she said "When I was still a painter my instructors made my head so big that I just painted stuff like this to see if I could get someone to say they didn't like my work".

I wonder if some designers get to this point, where they say "Hmm I want to do something hideous and see if anyone notices..."

nancybee, before I had finished my degree in design, I was asked if I would come back and teach because they felt I was probably the most analytical student that had ever gone through the program, and they were intrigued by the research and science-oriented approach I took toward projects. I decided not to do it for a number of reasons, but I do like dissecting the design process. I just don't know if I could write a book...I have been asked to blog, but I can't commit.

My fear is that, as someone who works primarily in another discipline and does very few design projects professionally my critique would be considered like that of the movie critic as an unsuccessful movie director or producer. Does that make sense?

Critique is a totally different process from doing. A good critic has very different knowledge from most of those who do the thing itself. Your background as someone educated in design, and having some practical experience, gives you the credential that you're not just looking at the end product and making pronouncements. It says that your depth of understanding comes from your background, not just your hat.

I am fairly well versed in design, though I approach it as an artist, and I do know how to analyze forms, but you've given me several insights just in this discussion. Even if you didn't mean what I took away from the green kitchen (that it clashes with the food), that's okay. You led me into understanding my own reaction to the place. That's the best kind of critique--where you're not making pronouncements from the Olympus of the in crowd, but helping your readers to understand their own thoughts and put them into context. (BTW, I too like the green color itself, and the overall design of that kitchen, just not the two together.)

If you want to write a book of design critique and need some help getting started, e-mail me, if you like (former writing teacher).

Plllog, a counterpoint:
L.A. has historically had lots of bright colors within many of its homes and commercial buildings. The Pacific Design Center's blue and green buildings jump to mind, as do some of the Mexican and Moorish influenced interiors and exterior stucco shadings, some of the Craftsman bungalows, the intensity of the flowers, the trees and greenery that benefit from the long growing season. It's a vibrant place. I think one can find plenty of saturated color in design there, as well as beiges and whites. Well, I think one can find lots of everything there. And one can find neutral statements in northern European cities, too. So, even though the light is different and the undertones may need notching up or down or sideways, I'm not sure one can write-off saturated color in design in the Southwest. Think of the red clay soils, the cerulean ocean, the tile work, an so on. In fact, it can be so bright outside sometimes, that a deeply-hued room can be a respite. Many of the homes I lived in and visited as I was growing up used a lot of saturated colors, although, now that I think about it, rarely in the kitchens, unless it was in the tile work.

I conceive of that green as a sort of neutral with respect to food. Lettuce and parsley, etc., often become garnishes. Fruits and vegetables often have green leafy components. Plenty of green ceramic serving pieces and dishware are used in homes. I guess I am more concerned with the lighting than the fact of the green. The lighting may matter even more so in the bp, which is a much darker blue than the computer version appears. I think it's luxurious and beautiful (even if it amuses me that it is not the real kitchen). I may be recalling this incorrectly, but I think the adjacent kitchen IRL is white.

Reminds me, once again, that I had a design teacher who eschewed yellow kitchens because he said they would make red food within their confines appear purple, and meat, especially, would be unattractive during preparation. Haven't found this to happen in the yellow kitchens in which I've cooked, though.

Now, I'm interested to know whether certain colors or combinations have truly been shown to be more likely to trigger migraines. I'm sure that high contrast, bold patterns would make visual changes more alarming. (See circus tent curtains above.)

BTW, Pal, I've always assumed that you did teach design. Your photographic examples are always so explanatory! And the exposition on the hierarchy of trim work in historic homes (when AtticMag had a discussion board) was so helpful. I assumed you had those shots sitting around because you had used them in courses you taught in your spare time.

Kitchendetective, the red clay soils, ocean (which I wouldn't call "cerulean" but never mind that), and also the colors in the traditional tilework, are not that in your face. There are darks, but they're not that saturated. And, of course, we're not talking about absolutes. We're talking about trends.

You'll see the Malibu tiles, made of the mineral colors I was talking about, on the risers between terra cotta tile stairs. The colors of Batchelder tiles are earthtoned and calm. The greenery that is found in the swampy parts, like much of Los Angeles, doesn't have that intense green that one sees in the Northeast and other waterlogged places.

Interesting about the design teacher's yellow thesis. I have yellow light in my kitchen, and yellow (bamboo) cabinets, and the meat looks like meat. :) Maybe there was a particular, hideous kitchen that was driving that idea, or maybe the teacher was particularly sensitive.

I agree with you on green kitchens in general. My counters are green. Food looks fine. That particular green in the MR kitchen, at least as it appears on my monitor, which isn't the greatest, is the wrong green, and I find it painful to look it in that quantity, but would love it as a Parsons table. It might be in this whole discussion that I am the one who is over-sensitive to color. That's how I got into consulting on design in the first place. I started as a colorist.

I think the thing about Miles Redd's green kitchen is that it is an INorganic green along the lines of Cadmium Green or Paris Green, both of which, ironically, are poisons.

I think if it were an organic green its interaction with food would be more palatable.

How about... GLASWEGIAN!!!

I love Charles Rennie Mackintosh.

{{gwi:1955479}}

I had to hurry up and come home. I was so excited to tell you all this. I was reading my sister's us magazine. And, lo and behold, there was the birdcage chandelier. It was some article about some chick's dressing room. She stated that it seemed to be the perfect fit for the room. There was an up close picture of it. Ha! I had to laugh. Thought I might share. I think it was on page 106. But, I can't remember who the star was. Someone not so famous, maybe glee or something similar. I know only you guys would appreciate it!

So in the first thread, we hashed over a lot of mall/catalog furniture/stores including Design Within Reach. DWR (like RH) isn't a place I'd ordinarily shop, but I do like thumbing through their catalogs to see what's out there in the real world. I had never before had a reason to notice the Gubi chair. In many ways it looks like a lower profile, flatter, more comfortable (by looks--haven't sit tested it yet) version of the (nasty) Eames molded stacking chair (which I spent a whole childhood hating for its uncomfortable ubiquity). With the latest book I noticed a different version--the Eamesish seat married to a Danish Modern set of legs with molded veneer cupping the seat. It's pretty cool.

Interesting, Kimiko. Thanks for the report! It would be interesting to know if anyone actually paid for that lamp, or if it was loaned/given because of the magazine article. In Hollywood, you don't have to be very famous to get tons of free stuff, just a bit famous in the right demographic, preferably in a cool way.

Since you brought up DWR, (didn't they once venture into kitchen design, briefly?), I will return to the statement I have made a number of times that a kitchen that is newer than the style of the house would also be compatible with the house. (Since it is a natural, temporal, progression.) This would exclude a kitchen style that in itself is "revival". So the current neo Edwardian white/subway/stone top kitchen would not be a candidate for ever house, nor would a full on Craftsman, since these are both revivals of architectural styles, if not of the actual (more utilitarian) kitchen these houses would've had.

So, I think a Henrybuilt kitchen:

or a Viola Park kitchen: (Henrybuilt's non-custom line)

Could work in just about any house *if* done in the right materials.

I actually think the Viola Park is a bit more friendly in this regard because the statement it makes on its own is a bit less insistent than the Walnut/Teak/Rift-cut Oak of the Henrybuilt.

I find the discussion of migraines and poisons interesting b/c of something I read/heard recently - past the first impression people care more about how something feels than how it looks. Thus, though I still love the way my counter looks, I wish wish wish I had thought about paying to have the edge bullnosed and polished underneath so I could better caress it. On the flip side, I was alarmed at how ugly my Wellness mat was when it arrived, and now I adore its plain black rubber self.

As interesting as the whole visual design thing is, it seems that there is the tactile element that might "really" matter and does not lend itself well to photobucket. ps - The Eamesish chair DOES look comfy :)

I hadn't seen the DWR kitchens. Remodelista and Apartment therapy have the same press release. The cabinets shown look heavy to me, probably because of the edges that stick out. The Viola Park and Henrybuilt above are much cleaner looking.

Both of those photos look really dated to me, in a way that other Modern cabinets, especially the Euro ones, don't. Perhaps it's just a matter of what I've seen. The above look like kitchens that I've seen in houses they were original and new styles in. ... Come to think of it, though, for all that Modern is enduring, Poggenpohl and Pedini are showing different looks within that now than the ones I was seeing fifteen years ago. Maybe Henrybuilt just needs to update their advert photos?

I absolutely agree that their forms could work in just about any house if detailed right. Modern endures unless it's '80's red or blue lacquer. :) In a neutral material/color, inc. the Henrybuilt woods and the Viola white, it is very little black dress. I think the most "insistent" thing about the Henrybuilt, however, is the hardware. That absolutely plugs it as Modern, whereas the flat slabs of the Viola could be any flat slab Euro, across many decades. It's all pull doors, but otherwise doesn't look much different from my own bamboo, which is much quainter looking.

Of course, the other thing that makes the Viola Park is the lack of clutter with the flush cooktop, hidden hood, and, presumably, integrated everything else.

I've always agreed, in general, about the age of house/period of kitchen thing, though sometimes the locale and/or style of the house have more to say about it. Even when I was thinking white kitchen, it was never going to be Peacock Scullery-ish, and certainly not inset with cup pulls. That would look really off in my 25 year old house. So would a lot of Art Nouveau. The house is rectilinear, and too new. OTOH, the little A.N. details, work, and help make my kitchen look grown in place rather than slapped on top.

I think it's a case of what a colleague called "instant ancestors". That was about using clipart photos in a collage. The portraits give a sense, in the collage, of a community, with history. It doesn't matter that they're not the actual people from an actual community. They convey the message just by their presence.

Using some details from days gone by in a kitchen (whether salvage or repro), like using old family pieces and/or antiques in another room, will give some temporal depth to the room and make the date much less obvious.

I think the Henrybuilt could work very well in a house that was already modern with some natural wood, and I also think it could work in a vast loft or in a very old house where the kitchen was sited in a large back parlor with lots of detail.

But...I think it might be too heavy for a typical house that is either historic or relatively contemporary if the house has the typical vernacular detailing in typical room sizes.
Thats where the Viola Park look could step in.
I think one of the things I don't like about Henrybuilt in all wood is this: This is the 1965 kitchen in my apartment when I bought. (I erased all the previous tenant's junk and wiped out the pattern on the floor, which was that color). The association that I make with some of their kitchens is this.

hee Yup. That's what I meant by dated. :) The Henrybuilt picture above has a more recent hardware design, but is still that same look. I agree with what you've said above, but I also think that it's a better fit in the kinds of places you've shown us than in a lot of houses in the West.

Away from the coast it's different--most typically ranch or farm houses -- but in the coastal region, I think the most classic, most easily fitted into any style house, would be any kind of take on the old slab door framed cabinets. I've seen it done--on the cheap side--with Euro full overlay, with a kind of vestigial bump of a frame around the center, though not actual five part doors. These kind of mimic the look of frame and slab. There was a real backlash against Modern here, so there are a lot of newer houses, on all price levels, that are very not at all Modern, where the Viola Park would look very out of place unless it were really well disguised.

I think a certain type of house takes a framed cabinet with a half inset/3/8" overlay door with a radiused edge, exposed hinges and a simple magnetic catch.

Every kitchen from between the wars to sometime in the 1970s had these types of cabinets where I grew up, but these were mostly stick built.

I think it is a perfectly pleasant looking door, especially painted, and no one does it anymore, or almost no one.