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willietom

Fabulous Kitchen

willietom
9 years ago

Fab or not? You be the judge. I've been told it needs help. :)

Comments (27)

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago

    Impossible to tell without more info, such as the space's width. There's no way to know if you have sufficient aisles for island seating in the work areas.

    Is your DR below the kitchen? I'm assuming that since you're eliminating the dinette area that you plan to eat most meals in the DR. Would be helpful to know where that is.

    But yes, my first thought is that it could use some improvement. If you want further advice, please tell us more about you and your family: how many cooks, do you bake a lot, entertain often, etc.

  • willietom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Lisa, the kitchen is 14 ft wide. Just three of us, so most meals will be served at island table. Usually DH cooks and I bake cookies! Not big entertainers, with the exception of family holidays. I should also add that I don't want the kitchen open to Family Room.

    This post was edited by willietom on Thu, Sep 11, 14 at 2:12

  • desertsteph
    9 years ago

    The DR seems far from the kitchen.

    The sink seems far from the stove. long way to carry a pot of hot water.

    only 3' from side of table to counter edge on sink run?

    stove to table looks like 4'?

    aisle between fridge side and table???

    are there windows by the chairs at the end of the room?

  • practigal
    9 years ago

    The end of the table is in the line between the fridge and sink, you will get tired of walking around the end of the table.

    I do not believe that you have enough space to have chairs on BOTH sides of the table.

    The table is marked as both a table and an island. If it is an island (cabinets below) and not a table you need to give each chair at least 1 foot under the island overhang for the knees and the island looks like it is not quite 3 feet wide-not wide enough.

    The area where there appears to be two arm chairs and a small table formally marked "dinette" looks like it's completely wasted space. You may want to reconsider the location of the kitchen sink. It could face outside - this would also free up a lot of space in the area where you are trying to put the table.

    On the door that you have opening out onto your deck, you will need to find out where the hinge pins for that door will be located. It may be that they are located on the outside of the house where a thief could easily remove the hinge pins and come in your house, without having to pick the lock.

  • john_v00
    9 years ago

    Here's our newly renovated kitchen. I'm so glad with the outcome. Thanks to Avery!

    Here is a link that might be useful: Avery Gallery

  • bellsmom
    9 years ago

    I have some ideas and would be happy to play with your graph. However, it is hard to read some of the measurements in your drawing. And door widths, for instance, are not specified. Can you tell me if the measurements here are accurate? Each square is one foot. They don't have to be precise, just close.

    Also, how high are the bottoms of the windows? Can a cabinet go under them?

    Any other errors?

  • lenzai
    9 years ago

    Not really to do with the kitchen but I thought residential exterior doors had to open into the house, otherwise it's a safety issue since you can take the door off the hinges and just break in that way (this does not apply to screen doors since they are not there for security)
    Public places have doors open out to allow for the public to have quick egress in an emergency but they have special safety hinges and that's much more expensive.
    Just a thought.

  • willietom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Bellsmom, I'm excited to get your vision! Will this photo help you?

  • GreenDesigns
    9 years ago

    Get rid of the useless dinette area and move the kitchen into that light filled area. The island can have a table attached to it if you see yourself eating most of your meals there. I wouldn't, as it won't be that comfortable. But the DR is way to far from the kitchen to ever use, so I don't see you entertaining there either.

    I think the whole plan needs to be redone. It's not just the kitchen that doesn't work.

  • desertsteph
    9 years ago

    I still don't see the width of the aisle between table and refrigerator run.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago

    You definitely do not have room for seating on both sides of the island/table if the room is only 14 ft wide. Allowing for 25.5" depth for cabs and counters on each side and 44" of clearance between counters and island/table for sufficient aisles behind seated diners, that leaves you with room for a 29" wide island/table, which is awfully shallow for diners seated facing each other. It will be like sitting at tiny cafe tables, barely enough room for plates & glasses on the table and barely enough room for legs underneath it.

    It looks like you plan to recess a full depth fridge into the pantry, which is a good idea, however, the door and handles will still protrude beyond the counter next to it. Figure on at least 3" and quite up to 5" with handles sticking out into your aisle.

    Given your DR's location, I think the doorway to the kitchen should be shifted to the left (in your latest drawing) so that it's a more direct path from kitchen to DR. And all due respect to GreenDesign, I wouldn't move the kitchen to the dinette area; that would put the kitchen even further from the DR.

    I have an idea, too. I'll draw it up and post later today.

    Re: the ?s about out-swinging exterior doors that others have raised. It can be done but it depends on where you live. I have an out-swing exterior door. I live in the PNW where we have rainy winters but rarely snowy ones so there's no concern about snow banks preventing us from opening the door outward. We had pins inserted into the hinges to prevent anyone from lifting the door out of its hinges to gain access to our home. My place was burglarized when I lived in S. Fla so believe me when I say that I am cautious about my and my family's safety, as well as that of my home and belongings.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago

    Here's my idea, roughly sketched out but with dimensions that fit your space.

    As I suggested above, I moved the doorway from kitchen to hallway so that you have a more direct path to the DR.

    I swapped the positions of fridge and range to give you more room to work around the range.

    I added a peninsula, pushing it closer to the dinette area so the casual counter seating is close to the upholstered seating. This way, when you entertain, people seated at the bar will be able to visit with those seated in the chairs more easily. This also makes better use of that space than your plan did.

    I added a smaller island with a prep sink. This gives you a dedicated work zone between fridge, pantry, MW, sink and range and a dedicated clean-up zone across the way. Dish storage will be handy to for both counter dining and to the DR; ditto for clean-up traffic.

    I swapped the sink and DW location. The half wall and sink set-up you proposed is disconcerting to most. Half the sink is open, half is blocked by a wall. It looks like an "oops, we didn't plan this out well enough" IMO.

    Oops, I forgot to mark the aisles between sink run counter and island, and between island and range run counter. The former is 42", the latter is 45". If you prefer a larger aisle between island and range, shrink the island by 3", which would be a run of standard depth cabs with counter overhangs of 1.5". I drew the island up with 27" deep cabs and counter overhangs of 1.5" to give you a bit more generous space for island prepping.

    Anyhoo, that's my take on your kitchen. I'm sure you'll get additional suggestions to improve your plan.

  • willietom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Lisa, I so much appreciate your time! You definitely have shown me options
    I should have previously added that DH is adamant about not having sink or anything in the island. I'm also thinking I should just go back to having a small table in dinette. Moving the doorway is an option, but I will definitely be coming from garage and through mudroom to kitchen more often than I will be using the dining room from kitchen.

  • Karenseb
    9 years ago

    I like Lisa's drawing. If you go with it, I'd move the pantry door up a couple of feet towards the stove and run cabinets from the fridge over to the pantry wall. You gain an extra cabinet and your pantry can have shelves on 3 sides.

  • golfergirl29
    9 years ago

    I have a similar set up--family room, kitchen, dining area. This is an alternative. I originally had a peninsula between the kitchen and the DR but got some great feedback from GW and decided it was dividing the room rather than creating open flow. I too didn't want sink or rangetop in the island, but decided to compromise and put the sink at one end and my guests at the other. I also wanted to have a U-shape for seating at the island--I find people like to face each other rather than all in a line. As you said, entertainment for you isn't a major factor so that sets up different priorities. We put our casual DR next to the kitchen so there's no second eat-in area. I've made some changes since this drawing (like a landing area next to the refrigerator). The wall between the GR and the kitchen only has upper cabinets on half of it; the second half just has lowers to open up the sight line to the GR. I'm putting a wine refrigerator and wine rack there. One suggestion I picked up on GW--if the MBR is off the kitchen, make sure there's good sound proofing is one person is an early riser and the other isn't. You've already gotten great suggestions! Good luck!

  • willietom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Golfergirl, very nice layout! I'm adding soundproofing between MB and kitchen to my notes as soon as I'm done typing this. Thank you very much!

  • lascatx
    9 years ago

    An earlier post commented that they didn't think you had room for seating on both sides of the island. I'm sorry, but you don't have room for seating on one side of an island in that type of layout. Thirteen to fourteen feet is minimal for an island without seating. Most folks here want larger clearances just for working and traffic.

    Lisa's plan minus the peninsula and walk-in pantry would be pretty similar to what I have. If you separate the cooktop and main sink, you have to have a prep sink in the island. It would not only be a PITA to run around the island every time you want to drain anything, wash your hands, etc., doing that would be just be a matter of time until you have spills or other problems that could lead to burns, falls, etc. Until then, it would just be a huge PITA. A prep sink doesn't need to be large -- 15-16 inches is good. A little larger can be better, but 15-16 works. That's what I have. Tell DH you can still use the entire surface for serving -- the sink can become a big ice bucket. Offset, it still gives you plenty of workspace.

    I consider my layout very functional and the differences between Lisa's layout and mine would just give you more. The one thing that bothers me is the pinch point at the end of the peninsula, but you could modify where it hits relative to the family room by making that cooktop run a little shorter or the peninsula itself shorter.

  • bellsmom
    9 years ago

    OK, some ideas to think about.

    I had some time this AM to work on a kitchen layout. When I came back to post it, I saw Lisa's. We very much agree on several things.
    I also agree with others that the DR is much too far from the kitchen.
    Really, I think the whole first floor layout needs a close look. You have a lot of space here. I just don't think it is as functional as it could be. I can't see the whole floor's layout, and I am really not qualified to make suggestions--other than that you might want a long conversation with your architect.

    Anyway, here is what I came up with for the kitchen as it is now and as you say you want it to be.

    Prep sink: You need a prep sink. In this large area it is much too far to trek all the way around the island and across the kitchen to get to the cleanup sink for cooking and prepping water. I put the prep sink on the perimeter since you said DH did not want it on the island. In this case, perimeter may work better anyway. Nice and close to countertop seating.

    Pantry: Much of the space in the pantry is wasted as originally drawn. I shortened the cabinet run and widened the entry. My sketch shows 6"-8" shelves on each side. If you can make also deepen the main area to 5', you can have 1' shelves on both sides and 2' shelves across the back end. I did not draw it this way because I don't know if you can move that back wall. As it is sketched, I think you could hang mops and brooms on the empty wall.

    Peninsula seating: Both Lisa and I envisioned a peninsula AND an island. I am concerned that you seemed to be thinking your original island would be table height, which is lower than counter height. Are you OK with counter height seating?

    Peninsula storage. I sketched the peninsula with regular depth cabs on the kitchen side, shallow cabs on the dinette side for seldom used items, and 15-18" undercounted clearance for seating. I think you can easily seat five here, and I think you and DH will enjoy sitting on adjoining on adjoining sides instead of side by side on one long side.

    Wall cabs. You didn't show wall cabinets. I sketched some in on the left. I would probably also put some on the right perimeter wall.

    Position of range and cleanup sink: Both are easily moveable to be centered.

    Dining area: You say you and your family will usually eat at the counter. In that case, if I put any table in the dinette area, I would consider a small drop leaf table with two leaves. It could easily then be only 2 x 4' when folded down and stored on a wall.

    A final query: Would you be willing to switch dinette and kitchen? If so, can cabinets run under the windows in the dinette? Or must they extend downward below counter height?

  • tomatofreak
    9 years ago

    I got claustrophobic just imagining myself in that kitchen. I agree with GreenDesign; move the kitchen to a place with some **light**!

  • willietom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Minor changes could work?

    This post was edited by willietom on Sat, Sep 13, 14 at 0:45

  • bellsmom
    9 years ago

    It hadn't even registered on me that the only natural light in this kitchen is from the windows in the dinette.

    I agree with others who suggested you seriously reconsider this. Imagine walking into a large closet. Leave the door open. Imagine what the dark interior of the closet is like until you turn on the light. That is your kitchen. Very, very dark. Every work station faces a windowless wall.

    You CAN do it if you paint the cabs a very light color, install lots of lighting, light countertops. . . . But every time, any time of the day, you walk in there, it will be dark until you turn on a bajillion lights. I would NOT do that if it were avoidable.

    And it is avoidable. Switch the dining area and the kitchen. You will spend much, much more time in the kitchen than in the dining area. Why not use that prime space for the kitchen?

    As to your redesign. It is still way too crowded. Try mocking it up. Use cardboard for the cabinets and island. Then put a stool or chair on each side of the island. Have someone sit in the chairs. It simply will not work. The aisles are too narrow.

    You have a large and potentially beautiful space. It can be a stunning kitchen that will be a pleasure to work in. Just needs some rethinking. I would love tackling the job of redesigning this space with the kitchen in the windowed area. If you are willing to rethink, start a new post with the measurements of the whole area and ask for help. If you like what you have now. . . I wish you well.

  • RocksAndRoses
    9 years ago

    Your plan is very crowded. The stove/sink/refrigerator are far apart. The cook, in this case your husband, will get tired running back and forth getting ingredients, especially since he will be bumping into the island constantly. I hope your husband has a good disposition. If he has a temper, the island may fly back into the dining area when he is tired of bumping into it. (Kidding, no offense meant to your husband)

    It is hard to get used to working with blueprints. Try transferring your layout on the floor of your actual kitchen with masking tape on the floor.

    You have a lot of space to work with and a pantry for storage. I think you can have a beautiful kitchen that is a joy to cook and possibly dine in. You need to take more time planning things. Keep in mind that some things - sinks with drains, appliances with utilities and venting - are easier to move on paper than in person. It will be least expensive to keep the sink in its current location and locate any dishwasher nearby, for example.

    I am jealous, I wish that I had as much space for my kitchen in my new place.

  • willietom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Bellsmom, I'll get on that. It will probably be later today. I'm not against that option at all. Thanks!

  • willietom
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Bellsmom, here are the dimensions. I can envision using dinette area for kitchen, but I can't envision what could be done with the rest of the space. I'm not against it at all. Do you need anything else?

    This post was edited by willietom on Sun, Sep 14, 14 at 14:08

  • bellsmom
    9 years ago

    OK, here's another quick sketch. Just to make the point that there are many options for you. As others have said, I cannot imagine making that long trek to the dining room, even with the "serving area" in between.

    There would be drawers on one side of the prep sink and a trash bin on the other. The last 15" or so of the sink side would be left open for knee room for people seated on the end of the island.

    There are many on GW much, much better than I at design. Perhaps they will revisit and give you more help. Personally, I like this much better than the original, although this certainly still needs tweaking.

  • lisa_a
    9 years ago

    I understand why others are suggesting you move the kitchen to the nook area but I find the idea of sitting and eating at a table in a windowless area equally unappealing or perhaps more so.

    Do you need the wall between kitchen and FR? If that were removed, your kitchen would be more light-filled in its current location. Something like this perhaps:

    Yes, there is a sink in the island but a prep sink makes this plan work. It gives you a dedicated cooking zone and a dedicated clean-up zone.

    If you can't give up that wall completely, could you make it a half-wall the entire span to the clean-up area, like this:

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Bethesda Kitchen & Bath Remodelers Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

    Or this

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by San Francisco Architects & Building Designers Rossington Architecture

    Or this:

    [Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Bethesda Kitchen & Bath Remodelers Case Design/Remodeling, Inc.

    The last option would be good if you really think you need cabs on that half wall. You'd lose the uppers on that wall but I think you will likely have plenty of storage, all the same.

    If you haven't yet, take an inventory of what you own and what you need to store, where it makes most sense to store it and how much space it needs. I did this and learned that I don't need uppers on either side of my cook top on my relatively small wall. This meant I could keep my large window (yay!). And I still will have room to spare.

    Oops, just read that you don't want the kitchen open to the FR. Does that mean you wouldn't consider making the wall between kitchen and FR a half wall the whole length or do you require a full wall with only a little bit of half wall as shown in your OP?

    This post was edited by lisa_a on Sun, Sep 14, 14 at 18:55

  • RocksAndRoses
    9 years ago

    I think that the nook is a charming place to eat and relax. A built in window seat would be perfect for that space. I would keep the dining area in the nook and maximize the kitchen space for cooking. Having both a dining nook and a countertop aisle seems redundant to me.

    You want to be certain that you have enough light in the kitchen. Plenty of overhead and task lighting AND light countertops. Dark countertops would not be a good choice, imo.

    Thinking about what type of cooking you do, what appliances you have (and want) is important. I never have enough storage space for china, appliances, tools, etc. Do you need more drawers, cabinets, shelves? Would a hanging pot rack make sense for you? I tend to maximize storage space. I am also a serious cook who cooks daily from scratch. I even cook for my dog. I probably have more pots and pans than most single people.

    Moving utilities would be expensive. I would only relocate or add sinks if it was absolutely necessary. Taking down walls and building walls is also expensive. You want to make the most of your decorating/renovating budget.