Marcolo: I don't think it's insane to have the PT holder where you've got it. But I'd put dishtowels in the 15" cab to the right of the main sink. At least for me, I'm more likely to use PT when cleaning up messes on my prep area and a cloth towel when drying dishes or my hands.

Where are you planning to keep things such as oils, soy sauce, PAM, and the like? I like mine near the range, rather than in a pantry cabinet. And where will stuff like baking powder, dry yeast, extracts, etc. go? You've apparently got some empty drawer space...just wondering if you've accounted for this stuff. Also rolling pins, cookie cutters, pie weights, silicone baking mats, etc.? Maybe in the 18" island stack, under the foil, wraps, etc?

I'd start hating having to turn around to get a paper towel, esp if my hands or something was a drippy mess. Can you mount a holder on the inside of your big sink door?

You posed the question a couple times now so it seems that the placement is bugging you.

IMHO. The rest of the layout is looking good!

melissastar--yes, that cab is perfect for paper towels. I think wraps and foils, too.

I'm still thinking about oils and such. I am putting food ingredients right in the glass cabs--I like to see them. I hate looking at boxes of prepared food but enjoy seeing canisters of baking powder and boxes of Kosher salt. It's not just a philosophical difference either--ever notice how differently the packages are designed for prepared foods? Big hideous photos of "serving suggestions?"

I might bite the bullet and put extra pt to the right of the sink anyway.

So here was my big revelation: Why can't I have trash pullout that's wider than it is deep? Works much better for my layout.

Here are two new attempts. One is for two island seats, the other for just one. Which is better? Or should the single seat island be at the bottom? If I do it's only a switch of the shallow cabs on the left.

I stuck a trash grommet in there. I think this can work but I need a good, tight-sealing lid that doesn't look ridiculous in a vintage kitchen.

OOPS. You posted two more drawings while I was working on this. Not sure just what is on them. This is based on the Weds., 21:20 drawing.

I am going to post it anyway, even though it may no longer apply.

Hope there is something useful here.

THANK YOU! Good thoughts--I already incorporated some. Like moving the PT.

I think I'll put wraps and foils in that narrow cab next to the cleanup sink. I usually need them either when prepping or during cleanup, so they'll be convenient to that. Yes, they're far from the fridge there but I think it'll be OK.

I keep going back and forth between stool at the end and stool(s) on the side. The aisle is not big enough for a full kitchen stadium-type seating setup, with stools all lined up like an audience; nor do I want that. So the bottom seems sensible for seating, including for prep, as you say. However, that really cramps my prep space on the island.

I sit to prep only when I'm doing something very repetitive (huge bag of fava beans) or when I get really tired after a marathon cooking session and need to sit for a few minutes.

I prefer one seat, but I think it should be at the bottom, where there is more aisle space.

I have to admit that I am anti-island, but particularly in a space that is otherwise so retro --- nook, arches, icebox look. So I vote for anything that make it take up less visual space, and looks less modern, eg I would expose the sink plumbing.

BTW, when i designed my kitchen, i opened up every drawer and cabinet of my existing kitchen and photographed it. Then I numbered the photographs and labelled where each would go in my new space. I found that very useful in configuring the space.

Do you have to have the sink, on the island? It seems to be taking some of the 'vintage look' away from the kitchen. A smaller prep table would probably be more appropriate, but maybe not as functional.

Did you see any possibility with moving the pantry and having the prep sink by the fridge? Also, I'm still not sure why people can't lean on the table/island or sit at the banquette...isn't that where you want people to sit?

Maybe something like this? Have a smaller work table/island, with a butcher block at one end...with room for a stool to slide under? That would break up the long island, which doesn't seem very vintage, somehow. Maybe that's just me, though.
{{!gwi}}From Cottage house plans

I'm going to put in one more plug for a more vintage-y looking island, seconding Lavender Lass. Then I'll shut up. I know you said you need the storage, but in LWO's 1st pic from Wed at 21:58, it looks like there's a lot of storage in that island with the stacked drawers. Yes, not as much as with full cabinets. But you've seemed a bit ambivalent about the aesthetics of the island and I keep thinking you'd be happier with something that gave the illusion of being unfitted (although unlike Lavender, I'm not bothered by the sink as long as you have legs). Anyway, I'm suggesting you make a complete assessment of your actual storage needs before you reject the idea completely. Even without the island and taking into account the dead cabinet, your kitchen looks to have much more useful storage than mine.

cawaps, it's not the total amount of storage, it's getting storage where I need. The problem with LWO's picture is that there's no place for a trash pullout in it. The amount of additional storage that my reno is adding is really not that vast when you focus only on the prep and cooking zones--in fact, due to various geometrical oddities, there are places where I'm losing some.

I could do short legs, and I'll bring that up with the cab maker.

I really don't want to be stuck with only one sink. I'm not worried that my kitchen won't be vintage enough. I'm more worried that the next buyer will think it'll be unrenovated since 1924.

For crying out loud what happened to the pic?

Wow, clearly before NKBA aisle guidelines had been widely disseminated. : )
Great picture. Does anyone make metal tops?

Hmm, I wasn't thinking of resale value, but surely 90+% would love to see an island with seating and a sink in it. And, of course, form follows function.

Was perusing the blog of David T Smith workshops and saw this island. Thought it might give you some more visual fodder.

I'm wondering if I should model the island's look on the base of a Hoosier cabinet. Although I had been imagining something longer and taller in the leg.

Marcolo- Nice pictures!

My Paint skills are not good, but that's supposed to be a prep sink, by the fridge. If you'd prefer it on the island, I'm sure you can find a way to make it look more vintage :)

Maybe, instead of replicating the Hoosier's lines, it would be more effective to simply echo the idea with a detail on the sort of island you've had in mind?

This is pretty, but it kept insisting that I keep it symmetrical. The lack of flexibility and efficiency in this doors and drawers arrangement would drive me nuts.

But I can see designing an island with
1. these legs (they are really nice and just shout vintage)
2. a soapstone or leathered or brushed black granite top?
3. these pulls, knobs, and hinges (they, like the legs, are perfect)
4. modified (rounded) shaker doors?
5. maybe slab drawer fronts?
6. would inset doors and drawers work?

Can you make it look good if it is NOT symmetrical?

O.M.G. You are awesome, Bellsmom.

While it looks gorgeous as a symmetrical piece, it's very '20s to have a worktable with pretty random drawer and door sizes and placements. They were trying to be all "scientific" and efficient--think of how real Hoosiers were built. So with those legs it could still look terrific without being so mirror perfect. Maybe the front is symmetrical but the other sides are not?

How would I fit seating into something like that? I know everyone wants me to put seating on the end but that really cramps my prep storage and counterspace.

BTW yes, the top will be soapstone or a look-alike. The island will be painted a barn-y red.

If you put in seating only for 1 and put it on the end, the sides of the island could look like Bellsmom's pic (the sides of the seating space would be panelled).

If you put the seating on the side, then the side of the island facing the range could look like Bellsmom's pic, but the seating side would have to look more like your pic with the swing-out stool. I think you'd need an extra leg or two on that side (as with the swing out seat pic). I think it would look better with the seat in the middle than at the end, though. Drawers, seat, drawers. You could put the hoosier trim under the drawers, with legs supporting the inside corners, and the seat in-between. The seat would be directly opposite the prep space and range.

A little different look, but here is a picture of an island in my inspiration kitchen
from Better Homes and Gardens, Fall 1996.
I love the vintage feel. But it still has a lot of modern function:

I ended up running my island cabinets all the way to the floor because I wanted more storage. But with "feet" and an open toekick area I created a bit of this feel.

Yes, francoise, that's a lot of space to sacrifice. Do you have a pic of your own island handy?

I can't figure out how to link to the pic in my link below, but look at this 1950 newspaper ad and the Westinghouse Rancho range. It has what looks like a door below the cooktop but it conceals an open space for a basket or stool. If you did the same thing with a pocket door that slid back, and a pull out cutting board above where the drawer was, you'd have your seating area when you needed it, but it could be hidden behind the door and disappear into the island when it was more convenient to not have it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Westinghouse Rancho Range

Oh yeah, if the stool were folding, it wouldn't take up all of the space behind the door, and you'd have room for something else there as well.

Not great pictures, but here are a couple of photos of my island:

Not great pictures, but here are a couple of photos of my island:

Thanks, francoise! Looks great.

I'm seeing that two stools kittie-corner from each other are going to take up a lot of room. Unless I box in the rear corner for usable space. I do want an apron like yours--even thicker, with a narrow drawer in it.

A folding stool and a breadboard is a terrific idea. I need to figure this out.

Yes, a drawer in the apron is a great idea. Our apron is just wasted space.

What about those little Zen stools? they take up about the least amount of space. (of course a nice old one with patina)

If the seating space is not for you, Id think long and hard about exactly how often you will have a guest who will want to chat with you while you cook, and would not be happy as a clam sitting in the nook with a cup of tea while you do prep.

When we bought our house it had a 19' long kitchen island. The POs had these two little stools, and there was no lip on the countertop. I was surprised that people still sat in these things and thought it was fine. And because the seat is not round, they scoot away so easily....

Here is a link that might be useful:

Here is a vintage swing-out stool at Urban Remains.

{{!gwi}}

Here is a link that might be useful: reclaimed swing-out stool

Those are very space-conscious but I want something that would've been in a dream 1920s kitchen.

Something like this, but painted and with just a tad less turning (though not no turning):

Alternative approach is something like this, in a stool, also red:

Here's what I might do:

A niche in the back side where a drawer stack could have gone. One drawer at the top, then an opening. Wouldn't have to be deep enough for the stool to totally disappear under. Just knee room so you could get pretty close.

Cute! If the island is 6' long, we'd probably have the whole middle third empty, a drawer above, and then two side cupboards also with a drawer above.

I just remembered I do have a pic of an authentic '20s island. I don't think the lower height end would work for me, at least not so big.

A breadboard from the end would be fine for an overhang but I have absolutely no place to store the island otherwise.

OMG, that island looks totally OTK. Maybe it IS timeless....

Where do you get these fab photos? And WTH is that contraption under the clock?

When I have time, I'll post a pic of what I did for a sitting area for those marathon cutting, chopping chores (like when someone gives me a bushel of corn!). It involves a folding table made out of two exterior rail spindles and a piece of plywood that fits securely across the front of the sink and stores in the pantry when I don't need it. Works well for me.

No way do I think you need 24'' out of your 72'' island for a stool niche. I'd have to mock it up, but 18'' ought to be plenty and 15'' might barely work (you just need room at the bottom for the legs, and with the open area below, you don't need the whole leg spread to fit into the open area. You just need room for the upper 2/3's or so of the stool and, when you are sitting there, your knees. You don't need the kind of space that side-by-side diners need.

I think I do need that much, especially if I'm using the surface to work. If it were just for the stool, that'd be one thing, but that's only a 42" aisle on the side so I have to be careful about clearances. Plus, all I'm losing on the side are shallow 12" cabinet space anyway--not that important.

That's my critical choice--whether the stool goes at the end (where it eats into prep space) or along the side (where it eats into the aisle).

How about this:

Are you planning on seated prep when lots of people are around, like a casual entertaining thing? Or more just when you are alone, or have just a person or two hanging out just chilling?

With a lot of people around a stool at the end would be out of traffic as well as allow you to converse with people seated at the table. If you are mostly alone for prep, I'd go for on the side since you have more prep space and won't need to be concerned about traffic as much.

Plus since you were not planning on an island at all, this is all kind of bonus prep space. So either way you are getting more prep space than you thought, so go with the placement that works best for when you are seated.

That may not be a helpful train of thought, but eventually someone will say the magic thoughts that resonate with you, and you will achieve decision zen with the answer suddenly clear. It already sounds like a terrific space, and whatever you decide is very likely to make you happier than your are with what's there now.

Marcolo, I am late to this party, and still grateful for all the help you've offered on this site. The layout looks really good to me, and the finished kitchen is bound to be a wonderful space. If anything were to change, I would make a plea for a larger prep sink on the island, that could accommodate say, both a colander and an ice baths for shocking parboiled vegetables you've just taken off the range, etc -- maybe a sink that has a cutting board that fits over part of it would mean not having to sacrifice so much work surface, and you still would have more a more functional sink. I too vote for the trash pullout on the island, and a smaller one under the utility sink. If the utility sink drain is offset that becomes really useful space.

And I'm wondering whether your cookbook collection, which in my imagination is prodigious, could migrate from the sunroom and line the breakfast nook as if it were a carrel, since that is the obvious cozy place to settle in with cookbooks and a pot of tea. Or a hip flask of something stronger.

I do think people like to sit at the island, but it is good to be able to push the stools entirely underneath when you're not using them. Especially when the aisles are a little narrow, which in general I consider a good, efficient thing. Your kitchen will be unusually efficient and cozy.

I find the kitchen island forces me to be more disciplined about finishing prep work before starting to cook, which makes the cooking go more smoothly -- no more scorched onions while slivering garlic, etc: the separation between hot and cold work has been helpful.

Love the vintage photographs you've posted. Looking forward to more
Lynn

francoise47, where did you get those stools?

Hi Linelle,

(Marcolo -- sorry to hijack -- just want to answer Linelle.)

I purchased the stools (pictured above in my kitchen) on the Wayfair website.
They are made (in China) by a company called "American Heritage".
Yes, so it goes in the strange new globalized world.

I bought them in white and painted them a color called "Brinjal"
to pick up some of the colors in my curtains.
They also come in black and dark wood.
They are very sturdy and well made with a nice swivel.
It looks like the price has gone up in the past year.
I think I paid $119 each.

Here is a link that might be useful: American Heritage stool on Wayfair

Thanks, all.

I'm going to meet with the architect tomorrow. I don't know if we'll get as far as island layout at this meeting but I do want to discuss the issues that everybody has raised.

I prefer to do serious prep alone. In fact it's going to take some serious getting used to when I face into the room. I like to concentrate and it kinda drives me nuts when people jabber when I'm trying to chiffonade or just plain measure. However, the traffic jam comes when I'm trying to do last-minute prep for a holiday or dinner party--the things you can't do in advance. Maybe the stool on the far side would make people feel like that's their space, and leave me to mine?

Of course, the architect might say, "No stools for you!"

I'd love to put my cookbook collection in the nook but I don't think I'll have room. It's tight in there as it is.

Marcolo

Just a suggestion to put the stool on the stove side of the island and move the prep sink closer to it. Then, YOU can sit and guests won't feel like it is THEIR space. It'll be the chef's sitting spot.....although you might feel like a teacher at a desk in front of the classroom.

This has been a terrific thread - so many smart ideas for our own kitchen remodel.

Here is one photo and a link to my thread about the thingee if you want more info. Don't think this is what you want, but sometimes odd ideas elicit something that works.

The folding table sticks out 12'' from the cabinet. The stool is 15'' wide at the base. Both are usually stored elsewhere.
The dog, named Bell because she is dingy, is my all-time funniest beast, an 80 lb. rescue labradoodle that makes me laugh out loud more often than Stephen Colbert. She is permanently stored at my side.
Hope your conference is productive. Is it today?

Sandra

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread on folding work table

Marcolo how did it go with the architect?

Good but exhausting. We went over everything. Additions make me scatterbrained. I'm halfway through discussing island layout and suddenly I remember to ask if the eave overhang violates the setback.

We squeezed a couple of extra inches of room out of the nook. It really won't seat 4 adults in full comfort but for practical purposes, that's OK. There are only 2 people in the house now, and most people who buy in this 'hood are either childless couples/empty nesters or else families with really young (i.e., short) kids, and the nook will work for them. Anyway, my kitchen is going to be so insane the nook will be the least of it.

She seemed to really like my ideas for the fake-old-fridge and pantry area. And I have to say, I was pretty darn pleased with myself, because it all fit together so well. I'm getting quotes from a metal shop later this week, and I'm hoping not to get what my GC calls "pain in the *(&@ pricing."

In the meanwhile, I'm spending the week surrounded by other contractors repairing a disaster of a project completed a year ago. And another disaster completed two years ago. Really boosts my confidence for the kitchen reno.

Hey, Marcolo,

In case you missed my message (which fell off the top almost immediately, I have no idea how this site works), I am going with Dutch Wood cabinets and having them shipped up to the Boston area. I couldn't stomach the prices of local cabinetmakers in the end, so I'm taking the risk. Just wanted to let you know in case you haven't selected a cabinetmaker yet and want to see how my gamble works out.

Sorry to hijack this thread, just wanted to make sure you got the message.

That is so not a hijack, soibean. Thank you so much. Please do let me know how Dutch Wood works out for you. I think I've found a cabinetmaker but haven't signed on the dotted line yet.

Who's responsible for measuring?

My GC will be responsible for measuring. As it turns out, he prefers to do it that way, so it was not an issue. He spoke to Jason at Dutch Wood directly to satisfy himself on the quality of the cabinets and has given me the thumbs up on working with them.

Sounds like your timeline is pretty close to ours, if you've already selected a cabinetmaker. We are breaking ground in a week, hoping the rain holds off till after the foundation is poured. If all goes well, we'll be done before year end. I will keep you posted on how it goes.

It's not your swing out stool, but I thought you might like to see this!

Here is a link that might be useful: New old looking stool

Marcolo, I came across this kitchen and it made me think of you.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ashli Mizell Ardmore kitchen

Thanks, williamsem, it's on my list now! athomeinva, very cool kitchen. I also spotted a peacock blue couch in there that looks kinda like mine!

It has taken me two full weeks to mark up my notes to send to my cab guy. Hoping to send them off today. Maybe I should wait so I don't give him indigestion during Thanksgiving.