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tonkajoe123

Granite radon test in kitchen.

tonkajoe123
15 years ago

Hi Folks,

First off let me introduce myself. My name is Steve Patrick, I live in Ohio and I have a stone restoration service. Specifically counter top repair. I was introduced to Gardenweb via the controversy over the radon issue in granite. For those of you that watched the thread a few months ago know what happenedÂIt was interesting to say the least.

The association I belong to engaged certain parties that were involved here on our forum (Natural Stone Restoration Alliance) to debate the issue with very similar results. The outcome though, gave us an idea.

What if we were to set up a kitchen with no natural stone, in this case granite, get a radon level reading and then install a granite counter top that tested high for radon?

So here is what weÂre doing:

We are using an apartment with very little outside ventilation and using a radon test device used by radon mitigation specialists to get our base level. All of the tests are sent back to a radon specialist using EPA approved devices.

We found a slab that was giving off high levels according to a Geiger counter supplied by the fabricator. The fabricator will install the counter top and after test the results over a series of time frames. Three days, a week, two weeks one month up to six months. With the results good or bad, we should get a realistic idea of what is going on without the hype from those that have a vested interest in the marketing of surface products.

If the readings maintain a high level we will attempt a series of processes to see if we can harbor the radon emanating from the stone.

We are also videoing the whole process as well as a webcam for the public to monitor.

The work will start this weekend on the kitchen starting on Sept 6th.


If youÂre interested the website is www.nsra.com.

Comments (93)

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Deb, if this helps, Al said

    "it looks like it is set on X10, with around 440 or 470 showing on the scale, which would mean 4,400 to 4,700 cpm. Average background in our area is 60 cpm, so you have between 73 and 78 times background radiation which is medium hot, but not a bad find."

    I hope that means some thing to you.
    I should have time over the weekend to upload the video so you can have a better look.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Thank you, yes it does. I look forward to the video.

  • revans1
    15 years ago

    Huligar, who is giving you the readings from your radon test kits? Which lab?

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Air Chek is one of the labs so far www.radon.com

  • tonkajoe123
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Hi Karen, I don't know how much this differs from Maestro Bertoli's method.The key I think is making sure you get 35% hydrogen peroxide (from a beauty supply store)
    Any way here's our method.
    Coffee and tea both contain tannin which can leave a yellow to brown stain.If left on stone long enough the stain can penetrate deep and be nearly impossible to remove.If the concentration of coffee or tea is strong enough it can also etch the surface of polished marble.
    Solution:
    1.Pour 35% hydrogen peroxide directly on the stain and add a few drops of ammonia. Leave until bubbling stops.
    Caution!!!Do not use ammonia only.Ammonia can permanently set the stain.
    2.If above procedure does not remove stain than poultice with powder and 35% hydrogen peroxide.
    3.If all else fails try poulticing with toluene or xylene.

  • karenfromknoxville
    15 years ago

    Thank you tonkajoe! I appreciate your advice and recipe for success!

    Karen

  • organic_nettie
    15 years ago

    any testing results yet?

  • services_huligar_com
    15 years ago

    Thanks for waiting. I just got back from Vegas where the people who come up with programs to deal with Radon and Radiation were having a conference and one of the topics was building materials.

    I also had the pleasure of speaking with Erik Listou of Build Responsible, Gary Hodgden of AAIR Professionals, Bill Brodhead of WPB Enterprises Inc, and Shawn Price of Air Chek, Inc. These guys gave me a crash course in radiation and radon while confirming that we had the hottest stone measured to date.

    In the NSRA test kitchen, the numbers before the installation were all very low. All were less than 0.3 pCi/l on the days of testing (about as low as anyone can measure.)

    The test kit in the hall was 0.6 pCi/l
    The test kit hanging in the door way was 0.8
    The test kit hanging from the cabinets was 0.7
    And the one we hung 12" over the "hottest" spot was 1.0 pCi/l

    This test was done in a way to make sure we got the highest readings possible. We now intend on testing the home as if we were simply testing for radon in the home.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Radon in granite

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Hi Huligar. I have check on the live video a few times and I haven't ever
    seen anything?

  • tonkajoe123
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Hi Debs,
    The webcam has the test monitor and a clock so we have verification of time lapse- I know, pretty boring. So far the readings have been unsubstantial in raising the levels in the test kitchen. We are awaiting the monitor results from the lab to confirm for end of this week.
    Huligar made it to Vegas for a Radon mitigation conference, which had quite a few sessions dealing with granite.
    Tons of new info on testing correctly and the processes to get actual readings, not the scintillators you have seen in the media. Jo was able to talk with some of those who are doing the real testing. Some new papers as well from the scientists that are working on the lab tests. We'll have more information of our little test after we get some results.Oh btw, most at the conference believe this has been blown way out of proportion by the media.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Natural Stone Restoration Alliance

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Hi Deb, above you will see the results of the first test. If you look at the web cam now you will see we have two more device to test the radon levels.

    On Saturday we will install even more test as well as a devices that will check how many times the door is open as well as confirm that we are in the apartment. Ever few days we get someone that thinks we are not doing it correct, so we do all that it takes to make sure the testing have no loop holes.

    As of today all the test shows that the levels stay close to the same.

  • revans1
    15 years ago

    The link below will take you to a paper published on the website of the organization referenced above (the American Association of Radon Scientists and Technologists) that had the Las Vegas conference. The membership of this group, the AARST, appears to be mainly made up of radon mitigation contractors, but there are professional working scientists involved as well and the authors of the paper are in that professional group. The study was, according to the paper, sponsored by the folks who bring us Silestone. (It should be pointed out that the same company, C&C North America, Inc, is a very large importer of granite as well.) The paper describes the results of studying 35 samples of granite, and says in part:

    "It is estimated that in most cases the contribution of the decorative stone to the indoor radon concentration will be This appears to confirm the consensus that seemed to develop here about this issue. The interesting questions now seem to be, "how rare" and "what do I do if I'm a shopper and I want to know?".

    Another attendee of the conference has posted elsewhere that a newer version of this paper is forthcoming, which will describe the results when additional "hotter" samples were tested. I wish somebody would do some sort of big survey, testing hundreds or thousands of slabs, so we'd have a better sense of how often you'll find one that is a cause for concern.

    Here is a link that might be useful: granite radon paper

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Hello again. Thank you for answering. I have some questions. I just looked at the live video; can you tell me about the instruments you are currently showing and what the readings are? Thank you. Deb

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    As of this moment we have four instruments that was requested my views like your self.

    The big blue box that is on the top is the CRM 510 Continuous Radon monitor from Femto Tech http://www.femto-tech.com/products.asp

    The small device next to the yellow tag is the Safety Siren Pro Series II Radon Gas Detector. http://www.gourmettoolbox.com/radon.htm

    next to that we have the Telaire that will make sure we are not cheating,it check how often fresh air comes into the space. http://www.microdaq.com/telaire/index.php?gclid=CICW-6r96pUCFQIWFQodBG1-fA

    You will also see two of four Short Term
    Radon Test Kit from air chck. https://securechek.com/DIY/index.html

    we also have the clock just so you see we are still alive.
    I believe we will get some more kits on Monday.

    If you all have any ideas or doubts about what we are doing, please speak up so we can come up with the correct conclusion at the end of the testing.

  • organic_nettie
    15 years ago

    huligar

    Are you saying, that with all this testing, Do You feel and think it is safe to have granite in the home, in our kitchens and out baths? I am getting so confused with the readings of the tests. Please help me to understand what is fully going on.

    Thanks for your help.

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Organic nettie, at this time with all the readings that we have received from all these methods of testing, plus speaking with the labs and have all the information evaluated. I feel that this stone with all the high readings can not change the air quality in my small apartment that has so little air exchange, it will have less of an impact in a regular house with more air exchange. this test is set up o we get the highest readings as possible readings. If you look you will see we have all the test less that a foot away from the hottest spots of the stone.

    Here is the deal guys, When you find one of the rare slabs that consistently measures 25 uR/h or more (over the current background), you may have found one that has too much of one or more of the following minerals that will produce gamma radiation:

    Potassium (Produces some gamma radiation but no radon gas. It is found in most rocks and soil and in many foods and your own bones too.)
    Uranium (Produces Thorium and Radium.)
    Thorium (Produces Thoron gas, which the US EPA does not consider to be a major hazard at this time.)
    Radium (Produces radon gas.)
    Radon Gas (The gas then breaks down into Radon's daughter products.)
    Radon's decay (daughter) products (That are trapped in the stone and will never escape, but instead they will decay into very tiny particles of non-radioactive lead.)

    People are running around with these meters in hopes to scam you out of your hard earn money. We all for testing, but when you test know what you are looking for. If you do find a slab, use a radon test kit and see if you do have radon coming from the stone. If you do, these test will tell you how much. We know that this stone tested high but even as high as it is, it still does not change the quality of air which directly translate to no danger to me, or my family.

    Here is a link that might be useful: nsra

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Huligar have you considered putting in some dosimeters to see how much
    gamma radiation a person will be exposed to?

  • organic_nettie
    15 years ago

    Huligar

    Thanks for your reply. You have helped me understand things better and I will purchase my granite with much more ease.
    Is this information going to the New York Times, so that it can be printed and help others to feel better about their granite instead of having fear of it?

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    debs3, which meter do you have in mind?
    We will try to get what ever you want and keep in place as long as it is need to test and retest, so give me a name and model and we will get it.

    Organic nettie the NYT and other just want to sell papers, this will not sell papers. If they just so happen to run across one of the post online and wish to run it, we will not tell them they can not. In fact, as soon as we have done all that have been ask of us, we will take our time and write the report and make at as clear as day what we have done and how we did the test as well as name all the labs, and than mail it to them.

    If anyone else have any more idea of what other test should be done or where we should send this report, please let us know.

  • revans1
    15 years ago

    I think the suggestion about a dosimeter is a good one, but we should all bear in mind that it is NOT a radon testing device. If you get a meter like that, you'll be measuring and reporting on radiation, a separate and distinct characteristic of the stone.

  • somanyquestions_2008
    15 years ago

    All this testing is being done on granite slabs used as countertops. What about other products (such as Silgranit sinks, which are 80% granite)? Is there any concern about those products as well? I certainly don't want radiation leaking into the food I might wash in the sink.

  • revans1
    15 years ago

    I can't imagine any reason that you'd need to be concerned about a Silgranit sink, based on the questions that have arisen about a small percentage of granite slabs.

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Ok, we still have two dosimeter, we have the pm 1703m and the digilert 100. If you all wish to setup a time and date in which you would like to see the slab scan live.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Huligar

    The dosimeter is from Arrow-Tech, Inc., the charger is Model 750-5 and the dosimeter is Model 2 which measures from 0 to 2.0 mR of gamma. You can set or hang the dosimeter anywhere in the kitchen and measure the dose of gamma radiation you would receive in that position. You could try setting one directly on the granite or hang one 10-12 inches above a prep area in the kitchen, wherever you want to check your body's exposure. Try leaving it over night or longer, then divide the result by the number of hours it was in place, giving you the dose in mR/hr. I was told that it is more accurate if you leave it long enough to get a reading above 1.0 mR.

  • revans1
    15 years ago

  • Danahills
    15 years ago

    What do the readings on the meters mean? How do we know if the readings indicate too much radon or radiation?

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Good question Jstell.
    If you look around the net and youtube, you will see people with these meters telling that the readings are height and that the granite will kill you. As far as I know these meter were design to find all types of radiation,
    Potassium (Produces some gamma radiation but no radon gas. It is found in most rocks and soil and in many foods and your own bones too.)
    Uranium (Produces Thorium and Radium.)
    Thorium (Produces Thoron gas, which the US EPA does not consider to be a major hazard at this time.)
    Radium (Produces radon gas.)
    Radon Gas (The gas then breaks down into Radon's daughter products.)
    Radon's decay (daughter) products (That are trapped in the stone and will never escape, but instead they will decay into very tiny particles of non-radioactive lead.)

    The only real way to test for Radon is to test the air in the rooms, and that is what we are doing with all these test. We found a slab that not only had high readings but we also test he areas for Radium and radon. We now have the hottest slab to be tested to date for our test kitchen. We are even checking the air exchange rate of the home, some claim that the home gets too much fresh air threw the walls.

    revans1 how did you post that image? what tags was needed?

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Hi Huligar,

    I see you using the PM1703M (I think that is what it is.) on the live video at ~10:30 AM west coast time, but I cannot read what the meter says. Can you report to us what kind of readings you are getting?

    Thank you, Deb

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Hello Huligar,

    Sorry to be a pest, but I am very interested in what you are doing.

    On the other web site you posted pictures and stated that your D200 had readings of 4026 ppm and 1486 ppm. Please tell me ppm of what.

    Also with the pictures of the gridded slab you mention readings over 500. Please tell me 500 of what. Is it microrems? Is it a measure of beta and gamma or just gamma?

    Thank you.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    bump

  • revans1
    15 years ago

    What's happening?

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    'D200 had readings of 4026 ppm and 1486 ppm. Please tell me ppm of what.' is of the co2 levels. we had to check the air exchange rate.

    'Please tell me 500 of what. Is it microrems?'
    yes, we have reading over 700 micro rems.

    'What's happening?'
    I open up my home to anyone that wanted to do testing, I had no clue how many types of test that could be done, not just on the stone but my home. I had to stop the testing for a few days just so my family can have a day or two with out the cameras.

    We will do one more co2 test over the weekend just to see if we get back the same numbers as the first time, that we will be ready to post the results.

    Here is a link that might be useful: nsraweb

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Ok, the first stage of testing is over. Now here comes the fun part, well the fun part for me. regardless how low the levels are, we will have a few people who will want themas low as possible. We will start the testing on Friday to see if a sealer can lower the levels even more. In the mean time, here is video summary of all that we have done so far.

    http://web.me.com/huligar/Site/Podcast/Entries/2008/10/9_Testing_Granite_For_Radon.html

    Here is a link that might be useful: Testing Video

  • revans1
    15 years ago

    Could you give us a quick little update here, so that we don't have to watch the video just to know what's happening?

    Thanks!

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Hello Huligar, great to hear from you. I am looking forward to more information as it is available. I hope you will post all lab reports and test results. Thank you for you efforts.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Huligar, you must have some results you can share. Thank you.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Bump

  • huligar
    15 years ago

    Still testing, making sure we have no wholes what so ever.
    But it is cumming soon.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Any results to post? Thank you.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Wonder what results you got. Thank you.

  • petra_granite
    15 years ago

    Ok: I am going to just say this: and ask:
    which Country are we talking about? Brazil?
    Most people know nothing about granite: as once 18 months ago: I knew ZERO. I have educated myself and am a sales assistant for granite countertops for 17mnths.
    What are the testings on stone from Norway, Finland, Ukraine, India, Persia, Italy, and Africa or China?
    (marble and/or granite) Although not all granite we call granite is a true granite: it's based on what the material is made up of. (getting technical here)

    I swear: this has turned into a BIG consumer scare!

    "A child died from eatting paint chippings on her porch from old wood paint with high levels of radon: they though she was being poisoned on purpose/murdered. No just eatting paint chips! high high high levels." sad story, saw on trutv.
    but do you get what I mean?

    I know that people won't buy granite in part now due to the news!

    I always air out my apartment Daily! Cold or Hot out. I have Juparana Bordeaux big coffee table: Love it!

    McDonalds cheese burgars fries milk shake that has no milk!, smoking, drinking alcohol, eatting fast food: I should say every day, eatting processed foods, polution from the cars we drive daily, airplane polution: it's all bad for us! Plastic is bad! Bad for environment. We have a ton of toxins in our daily life.

    I am not saying "so what". I just believe the reports have hurt the granite business a little.

    Look at all the chemicals in processed foods! Do we even konw what they mean.
    I read labels now at the store: and I try to buy organic and shop at Sprouts grocery store: organic. But seriously: I use to live on Mcdonalds for years and 5 cans of DP soda daily! Then one day I said no more.

    If there is super high levels that will kill someone. Then yes, they should do something about those slabs at the factory. Or stop producing them if it will flat out kill someone!

    Don't eat the granite!

    We want beautiful granite in our daily life & homes, but we are cutting up mountains that were formed thousands of years ago. don't get me started. Radon levels could or could not shop up in the same lot: or from slab to slab. Seems like certain mountain will have more: due to the fact of the material the granite is made up of. (was posted on here)
    It's all a chemical reaction.
    I learned a month ago: how garnets are formed. It's all very interesting.
    Two of my customers are geolists and they taught me a few things about rock.
    Very interesting!
    I can look at granite and guess what country the slab come from! It's easy: Plus, climate is different from all over the world. The Niagara and Juparana has beautiful crystals: and the climate is much warmer in Brazil vs. Norway!

  • mindstorm
    15 years ago

    What on earth are you trying to say? Your post is incomprehensible.

  • petra_granite
    15 years ago

    "What on earth are you trying to say? Your post is incomprehensible. "

    I apologize: I have heard more than one person in passing stating that they would never get granite in their home due to Radon in granite"

    It makes me angry:
    Because Our media; goes over board. Today: almost every thing is toxic in some way and we could die from it. (list would go on and on!)

    I am not agreeing with high levels of radon in granite to be placed on the market, but really: chemicals used daily by consumers could be fatal. Not safe to live in our country period where we are nationally deceived on what is ok and not ok for us!

    I guess "buyer beward" and do research before you purchase anything that means something to you no matter what you are purchasing: granite or a new car.

    The whole subject on quarts aka Caesar Stone: doesn't make me happy either: but completely different subject: and basically it's their marketing "statements" that they make to the public: WILL NOT STAIN vs. GRANITE ALWAYS STAINS! example.

    I apologize: I understand there are much more facts that consumers need to read.

    And basically granite comes from several parts of the world, and not all granite has radon in it: as stated.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Huligar, did you forget us? Any results? Thank you.

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Bump

  • tonkajoe123
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Hi Folks,
    We have been getting our test results in. The initial test results were received in Dec.and are now being reviewed again to make sure the numbers are correct. I will say that the initial test results showed a a radon level way below the EPA standard for mitigation. At this time we have decided to delay sealing the stone and doing some further testing to do a bit of a comparison a little later this year. Thanks for your patience!

  • debs3
    15 years ago

    Thank you for responding tonkajoe.

  • nezzy4.0
    15 years ago

    New member...just read all of post regarding the radon gas/granite concern. We just moved into a home (Thanksgiving '08) that has all granite countertops. Seems every couple of months there is a renewed concern about this material. I'm scared to put food directly onto the surface because of this radon issue (2 small children).

    We get the local Houston news, currently, a Rice University professor stated that a person would need to put their hand onto the granite surface for a total of 300 hours to have any health effects from the radon.

    I'm looking into ordering the Aircheck test...any other suggestions? We didn't build the house, but we are certain that the material is granite. Any way to determine where our granite originated? Thank you so very much...gotta go unpack a box!

  • plants4
    15 years ago

    Just to be clear, the radon gas is in the air (risk of lung cancer), radiation is emitted from the source material (a bit like an ongoing x-ray machine). Whether you should be concerned about radon levels in your house is one thing. And whether you should be concerned about radiation exposure to your body is another. But the least of your concerns should be whether your food is getting irradiated from your counter. While there is a debate raging about whether radiation should be used to treat food (in industrial settings), it's not like the radiation leaves a chemical trace. It's a ray that can rearrange material.

    But if your counter were emitting radiation and radon gas, those would be your immediate health concerns, not the radiation of your food.

    Also, to be clear, the professor was talking about radiation exposure to hands, not radon exposure to hands. Radon gas is a concern to your lungs.

    It is smart to get your house tested for radon, regardless of where it might be coming from, because you can do something about it if the levels are of concern.